Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Astarion romance improvements

How deranged are people to assume that Astarion is mean to his lover after he ascends? This makes me think they never romanced AA and never tried to not cause friction with him. AA is VERY romantic if you let him be. Is it toxic that you can't argue with AA? Hell yes AA can be toxic if you argue with him, but the option is still there to keep him happy and acting like he utterly adores you. The people who have never experienced this still feel like they know what we're arguing for.

You can determine AA's behavior as his partner. Is it wrong that you have to behave yourself for him to be loving? Sure, perhaps it is, but it doesn't change the fact that he IS loving if you allow him to be. Whether it's an act or not is irrelevant. It's how he has been portrayed up until this complete character change with the AA kisses.

I edited my comment as soon as I posted it, because I immediately thought better of making said reference. My point still very much stands.

Thank you. Maybe you haven't noticed, but there are SA/DA survivors who have had PTSD flashbacks from watching sexual violence in these scenes, which you so nicely described as: "your virtual boyfriend isn't written exactly to your specifications?!"
So the first question is, have you read up on it and know what it's about?

It's like having an affair with Minthara and constantly fighting and provoking her, including calling her names of those she hates (Cazador in Astarion's case) and hate her possessiveness 24\7.

But there's also the problem that Astarion's evil isn't revealed enough.
His evil past as a corrupt magistrate, whether he remembers it, whether he regrets it and also it's all bound to depend on the playstyle, with an evil player Astarion won't hold back, his dominance in romance is also poorly exposed.

I assume you are referring to the fact that patch 6 introduced some changes to AA. One is that Tav looks very uncomfortable after a kiss (which, I agree, kinda weird, players should be able to decide if Tav is cool with it or not), and the other is that AA is more evil and demeaning of a love interest, which makes sense, since he's evil. Literally evil. Unquestionably, unequivocally evil. Now, if you want the edges sanded off of AA, because an evil vampire lord being evil to you ruins the fun for you, fair enough, but Larian is not some kind of malicious, disgusting monster (nor is the writer in charge of Astarion) for deciding to write him this way.

Let your voices be heard, but be measured and respectful in your requests to Larian. No. I absolutely do not, in any way, respect anyone wanting a writer to be fired because a fictional character makes them uncomfortable. I am more than aware of the statistics around SA/DA, and am sure there are survivors in this very thread. Any survivor has my sympathy. If you want a specific offending scene or line to be tweaked to remove the risk of triggering flashbacks: I completely get that. If you want a writer to lose their job and a character to have their ENTIRE arc for their evil ending rewritten: I do not get that.


*for much of this post, "you" is being used as a general term, and not directed specifically at YOU.

Three things -

1) 100% agree that feedback needs to be respectful, however, shoddy writing is just shoddy and people are right to point out the inconsistencies. If that means a better writer is put in charge of the character, I’m all for it.

2) the majority of those 7007 people weren’t innocent by any stretch. And would have become mindless and murderous after their release. The merciful thing to do is kill them and, as that’s the only reasonable option, why let them go to waste? Use them in the ritual.

3) Astarion has always been ‘evil’. A lot of people don’t get this because Larian essentially make a point of defanging him (spawn) and removing key parts of his history (kidnapper and trafficker).

I see you responded to my post just as I was editing it for brevity. I will respond to the points you made prior to my edit of the post, because I did mean them when I typed them, I just felt they were unnecessary for getting my overall point across.

Point one: "shoddy writing" is something that can't be objectively qualified, and considering the number of people I know who see few to 0 inconsistencies with AA's writing, and see inconsistencies instead with how certain flags/options still trigger even after his Ascension, I don't think this particular forum gets to decide whether a writer should keep their job or not.

Point 2: it is heavily implied that a considerable number of Cazador's victims were innocent of any great and evil crime. Astarion himself was rewritten to have just been a magistrate who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Pretending like those 7k+ people (whose souls will also be condemned to the nine hells) aren't collateral in a terrible ritual is just missing the entire point of the moral dilemma. If they were evil bastards who had it coming, it'd almost be a no brainer. Also, no, they won't go mindless and murderous. They might go mindless and murderous. Again, that is the ENTIRE point of the moral dilemma. It's a dilemma, because it isn't easy. If you want to kill them to (maybe) prevent future tragedies, you're supposed to appreciate and understand the weight of that decision, and if you unwillingly use their souls to turn Astarion into an evil vampire lord who will be in the same ballpark of evil as his former master, and his master before him, then you should absolutely understand the weight of that decision as well.

Point the 3rd: Rewrites happen, and anything present in EA that was removed for 1.0 is non-applicable to the canon of the game. That's how canon works. He was overtly evil in EA, and he was rewritten to be morally grey. A troll with a goofy demeanor masking his tragic backstory as a tool to be used by an abusive, monstrous vampire lord.

Great, that you are supporting us in changing Tav‘s Portrayal. We appreciate it.
We are not asking to change AA. Your description of AA is a bit flat, but I will not discuss it here.
Noone of us want AA to be rewritten, so we ask Larian to stay with the old vision of him and not to rewrite a whole path.


Noone here asked to „fire“ someone. You are the only one, using this word.
(What does it have to do with someone pushing to mass murder 7,007 souls ingame? It’s a roleplay game. Besides of that, Astarion chooses to sacrifice them, Tav didn't push him, Tav was begged. Ahem, so please.)

You don’t seem to have a lot of empathy with other people playing other routes or playing their game in another way (enjoying deep fantasy stories and Romances), so I will not comment on this weird statement. Also your previous post was very derespectul not only toward players, also toward holocaust victims and other reallife victims (beside of holocaust you mentioned 9/11 and cancer).

I am glad to hear, that your wife is comfortable with the sexual violence context in these kisses. But other women were not so lucky and were suffering.

Okay, so that someone doesn't twist our words, an explanation from my own point of view, I am only speaking of myself: A person (if it wasn't AI controlled) portrayed Tav as an OOC abuse victim and sex slave, thereby harming an entire fan base including SA/DA victims. We simply ask that the Larian team take a closer look at this case. Either Tav's portrayal was a big mishap or intentional. If the potrayal was intentional, we simply ask the Larian team to take a closer look at this case, whether this person has narcissistic and/or sadistic and/or malevolent traits or not, and if so, to decide whether this person should continue to work on the Astarion (Romance) route or maybe be used elsewhere, e.g. in the main story. And if it was intentional, but the one, had maybe no idea of the route and the vision of the old writer, then to give the person the possibility to read and understand the romance. It's up to the team how they will handle this now. If they don't change something, and the route will be rewritten (and not be enjoyable for anyone), most players on this route will leave the game, if that's their wish then so be it.


This is a feedback and suggestion Thread, so we give feedback and suggestion.

It is beyond cruel to even imply the possibility that Astarion's writer is deliberately causing harm to DA/SA survivors because they're narcissistic, malevolent, and a sadist. Good lord, you are so quick to assume malice. I would hate to write for Larian, if this is how the people reading my content digest it. They like this, this, this, this, and this, but because they didn't like this one thing, they have to come up with some insane, moral justification for why I went out of my way to hurt them, and if I didn't, I have to change it immediately, or I'm causing real world harm.

Exhausting. I think it'd be absolutely exhausting.

This is also based on Dungeons and Dragons. ALL vampires are "evil". 1. Vampire Spawn - Neutral Evil (no matter what, this is due to the magic that "creates" them & they are NEVER given blood to transform, just bitten & drained) 2. True Vampire - Lawful Evil 3. Vampire Ascendant - Not sure which category because it is a NEW kind of monster created by Meph, so it can be Neutral, Chaotic, or Lawful Evil. This is Stephen Rooney's homebrew vampire. 4. Bride/Groom of the Vampire Ascendant - Keeps their own mind, so it depends on the person (This was what they Animated & Astarion gave his "consort" 1 drop of his own blood, which is why I use the term = Bride. It is a gender-neutral title in fact per the Van Richten's Guide to Vampries (2e) which is still CANON lore - https://voltor.narod.ru/vr/vr01_11.htm The statement about canon lore is from Wizards of the Coast who CREATED Dungeons and Dragons). Evil is not a caricature, it depends on the emotions/knowledge/personality/etc of the individual + the magic used to create it. It is FICTION & Fantasy. Blood nor magic makes someone's personality flat/without emotion/one dimensional if you want to do something besides a 3-year-old child's cartoon character. Also, you can look up the Forgotten Realms wiki to find out about all of their alignments, except the Vampire Ascendant or his "bride" due to that is Stephen Rooney's creation, respectfully. He is the creator of Astarion. This does not mean he is writing the changes now because he is working on other Larian projects. The current writer or dev or whoever has changed the story 6 months down the road abruptly, without explanation, doesn't match or connect to the story that we have in the game since LAUNCH. That is what is being discussed. So be respectful of what you say, do not be jumping on an entire forum if there is a bad apple or two in the mix that people ignored. Please keep all things respectful. Thanks.

I didn't say someone wanted to deliberately harm DA/SA survivors. I said or meant, it harmed them. You twist words or my English is too bad to make things clear.

Many people have narcissistic tendencies, it's not cruel to consider something like that (i.e. that someone may have narcissistic tendencies)

[It's very interesting that you "show" empathy with an unknown person, who made Tav's portrayal (which unfortunately led to worry, harm and an increase in bullying among players), but you show no empathy with players who are playing this romance/route, that is with the fanbase]

Honestly, what's the point of a novel if the romantic interest is ONLY evil to his love.
A character's evil can be shown in a variety of ways - the worst with a romance.
Especially when Astarion is the only male for the path of evil as a romantic interest.
When in general something romantic in reverse is created to show weak points and something ~good~ in evil character.
Minthara is evil, she can kill, jealous, possessive, sharp. She also exhibits many positive qualities that are attractive.

"Literally evil."
You are aware that vampires in DnD still love and are willing to kill for someone they care about. And making a bond with their bride is literally putting themselves at risk. The spawns were avenging the death of their Masters.
Some red dragon being chaotic evil monsters, by will appreciate the treaty with giths and years of protecting them fight together.
Even in DnD which is famous for its alignment rules regarding evil.

But Lord Astarion has to punch a frightened face in his romance novel to coolly "show evil"?
…
It doesn't make sense and tasteless on many levls.

Although what am I supposed to say when:
- Spawn lies on the bed and looks at Tav: how cute
- Lord Astarion: horror, he's watching.

When BG3 sort of abandoned alignment, which means a more facile attitude of character personality, from what I've heard.
However, Astarion was described as neutral-evil.
What you are talking about is sphere of evil for evil's sake, created by the paws of Mickey Mouse, is a caricature. Just like Cazador without the quest where he or his image\idea should have been a bit more complicated.


>chose to push >mass murder

I'd kill two banging orgs in a barn to hear "little death" afterward, in EA.
I chose to explore the dark side of the character, and I want it to be complex and make sense. I don't care how many npcs are required for this victim.

Why not just take the book of evil like Disney and say "well he read the book of evil power"? "Became Evil".
Astarion was evil and feels alive when he kills is his line in the original. And a little bit of other things.
Although it's confirmed in interviews that it's still him, himself.
Though it was better revealed in the game why Astarion has slavery approvals.

He's evil, because he's an evil character for the path of evil, he was written that way.
Evil doesn't mean uncomplicated and can't do any good. Villains burning cities for someone they love - is the point of evil love.


Everyone does it all the time nowadays on the internet. It's just there now. Everyone is projecting and talking about it.

Let those who have taken damage say how tame it is.
The main damage isn't what Astarion does, it's Tav's face and the that it was done on purpose. Though if you read my critique of this reaction of Tav's makes absolutely ZERO sense.

Though I resent that his dominance and weirdness in the romance isn't explored better before and after the ritual.

There's no logical reasoning to it, Tav chooses a freakin' kiss and can break up.

I'll be fine if the who did-abuse-face and someones stop do this nonsense: Making the illogical Tav-victim line as the main one for romance and "Know-nothing Jon Snow, you're a victim of abusive behavior because you didn't choose the healing arch in a single romance with an evil man - we don't have one. It's a story of right-love and wrong-abuse-suffer. We added the fact that Astarion is going to hell for Karlach, giving up all the power, pleasures and silk sheets he's dreamed of all his life because Karlach, and cause Ascended Astarion became non-love demeaning\abuse pure evil".

Having him be toxic when you argue or disagree with him I quite like, it makes his character deeper and more interesting. I absolutely agree with you that AA is very romantic and he does care very much for his new consort, most people who do not romance him never see this side and probably would not get why anyone would want to romance him.
Also it is a roleplaying game, something wrong in real life might be fine in game because it is fiction not reality. This does have it's limits though, when hurting the players with (sudden in-your-face) abuse for instance.

And to make it clear again, it is abuse bacause because of Tavs reaction and facial expression, not necessarily Astarions animation.

Gooby Dooby.....have you even romanced the character discussed in this forum?

I admit I've lashed out sometimes here but only because it was so triggering and the permanent physical damages I received during my past abuse has also some impact on that, I can't always remember everything or concentrate right, I'll lash out more quickly, those are "nice" side effects. So it's completely as Zayir is saying, some people are triggered but no one wants anyone fired and we still all love Larian and especially this game, otherwise we wouldn't be so passionate about it.

@Gunsumber: I do not think you have been inappropriate at all. Lashing out with words for the shock that you witnessed and did not expect from a game is understandable but the people who come in and try to stoke fires when they haven't even played this part of the game to just cause rifts and arguments are the ones I am stating are the bad apples. You are all good. You have a right to your opinion and you have not stepped over the line. I can not say that for all.

The edges only come out towards AA's lover when they argue with him. Do you get the difference between provoked and unprovoked behavior? Evil people can still appear normal. The only thing not normal about AA at a glance is he's more confident since he ascended. Qualities like him being more confrontational and savage with his words when he's disappointed is something that only comes out when the player chooses certain dialogue. His edges are revealed when you argue with him or say things he doesn't like. It is possible to be in complete harmony with AA for the rest of the game while romancing him, and his edges never come out.

I am not asking for anyone to be fired. Just because a job is not suited for someone doesn't mean they should be fired. Typically, they are reassigned. Letting someone do a job that is not up to the task just because "firing is bad" is part of why the gaming industry is what it is today, and it's why Larian sticks out of the crowd, because they place quality as top priority.

It is a big deal for fans of a personality to see sudden changes in that personality that don't make sense and aren't pleasing. We are passionate about this subject. Perhaps it's just the expression change that can set everything right, because the kisses start out great until you see your character's face. Outright abuse from AA does not make sense before the Netherbrain is dealt with, due to the tadpole interfering with AA's control over the person he's abusing. Outright abuse from AA does not make sense anyway because he does not act negatively towards his romance unless they provoke him. Again, being evil has nothing to do with it, because evil can still have nuance. Evil characters are not black and white in their behavior. They can still have depth, which AA has, and we don't want to lose that depth to shoddy writing.

That person was just a troll trying to stoke fires where there are none. Pay no mind to a person who has not played the AA romance because they are just here to be a jerk. No one is suggesting to fire anyone. That is him just starting a fire where there are none. Just ignore him.

Definitely not asking anyone to be fired all I'm asking is course correct
to some degree adding a graphical change to Tav's expression can probably be done fairly easily
especially as they're currently dealing with graphic issues the weird "pinocchio " bug or "Lip Stretch"
I have seen they have fixed the wyrms crossing guard recently.

I have no actual Issues with Astarions Animations even Kneel as long as it doesn't look like torture.
The favourite line is not great as you are currently the only one.

"Of Course , You are my Consort " is already kind of in game there they just need to move it/ Copy it as an edit.

I believe in most ways Astarions story is pretty much completed in the epilogue as they removed the Upper City and DLC is unlikely except for small additions.
so further writing is probably not needed it's more fine tune it give Spawn his sunlight cure and add a better romanced ending .
I believe all you get is a hug in the epilogue or running from the sun at end game, gale turning spawn down on the cure question unless its Astarion/Gale romance Ascension to godhood.

Ascended got his big Mansion and his Consort just remove the awful Tav's face he got everything he ever wanted the AA fans get their head cannon to run off on to fanfic forums.

I don't think a cure will be added. And it shouldn't. It would devalue the importance of the ritual.
True in the original concept, Astarion was supposed to both accept this "payment" as a sun for his past before Cazador. That's why the ending is so bitter. And I have more faith in this concept.
But we have no reveal and it seems like a hard right way to go, despite everything that happened. This one has an open ending as Astarion and Tav search for a path to the sun. I think to have a sense of completion - cinematic clips like Astarion reading some manuscripts would be great.

Yet I agree that Tav should be able to run after him for a hug.
It was the right thing to do. Maybe Astarion will want to be alone at that moment, but you can show that too.

Like letting Tav say "I love you" to AA, kiss with a happy face and hug. Yes, evil couple, love and support each other.