Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Thank you for sharing this.

The article is well written: "Baldur's Gate 3 actually offers a lot of beautiful, inclusive and encouraging moments when it comes to romance. However, in a new update there was a change in very specific kissing scenes, which trigger strong negative associations for some players. We'll explain to you here what's so problematic and why (...) should change things quickly."

I am sorry to hear this... I am not allowed to tell you, why it's not your fault. But nobody is stupid, just because they choose another route.

As I see it, the comments section seems to have been closed very soon, it's not possible to comment there, probably due to comments violating their rules

Zayir, I’m going to ask you to avoid any further accusations of lack of empathy, vindictiveness and sadistic or narcissistic tendencies. I recognise in this instance you’re talking about people being unpleasant on the internet, which of course I don’t condone, but it’s something I’ve seen you do in other contexts and it can start looking like personal attacks on people who disagree with you, and trying to silence dissenting voices.

Can I ask that everyone discusses the content of ideas and opinions, rather than judging the people who hold them, even when we think they deserve it?

I was just referring to someone, who got bullied on the broader community and wanted to help them out:

" just ended in being told I'm media illiterate and stupid for taking the AA route."

Noone was disagreeing with me. But if you see it like that, it's your decision.
I will not write about it again. And we should go back to write about the topic.

I'm really not interested in playing any longer due to patch 6, and I was a total fan of the game up till this debacle. I don't know why the tenor of the romances has changed but the writing is much less interested in the player and how they might feel in favour of some sort of social signalling and pseudo psychology.
I played a bit of Act 3 on patch 6 before rolling back, and it triggered nightmares for me due to past real life interactions several decades ago and that I believed were dealt with.
I don't play a game to have someone else's vision give me nightmares, certainly not in an RPG which up to that point had never done so.
You can wander through the game making hideous choices that in real life would have you locked up for life and no one bats an eye but apparently a romance becomes the one thing that we are supposed to view as the most evil thing in the game.

I was not interested in Astarion as a way to become a vampire, until it was offered after Ascension my Tav had no clue such a thing was on offer, and I role play.
I didn't and don't view Astarion as a sex object - after the Act 2 confession why would anyone even think that?
I didn't like the remaining choice in this dialogue either - oh lets just virtue shame the guy we just went all out to help - sigh.

But up to the end of patch 5 that was the worst this Ascended Astarion romance got - poor dialogue choices in one conversation that could be glossed over or indeed add a mod which sorts them out for pc players.
But really that was as bad as it got.

Not any more.

Patch 6 is a downgrade from the high standards that the romances had before, some of the new kiss interactions don't fit in the context of what has come before or even what is wrapped around them, making it appear that Astarion suffers from short term memory loss episodes, given he is otherwise the same as he was in patch 5, does a 3 minute sadistic interaction and immediately reverts to normal. Its just poor all round but if they fix the wrapping around the kiss scenes to fit with them it will make the Ascended route completely unplayable for anyone who role plays as a person who likes/loves Astarion for how he has interracted with them for the entirety of the game up to Ascension, and if they leave it as is it makes no sense.

This does not only apply to Astarion but the Minthara romance also has its issues since this patch and I fear for the other romances.
Its a slippery slope that everyone who still cares about the game should make every effort possible to prevent. A characters entire story arc ending changing in such a massive way nearly 8 months after release is not something I have ever experienced in any other game and I hope never to again.

I voted for this game for game of the year based on what I was playing at the time - sadly if I had to vote now I would vote for something else.

I appreciate your compassion.

To the mod, they weren't referencing anyone here. Only people being intentionally vindictive. No affiliation to anything on this platform. You guys do a good job of keeping threads pretty clean.

But yes, onward!

Well said. I had a very similar experience to you and I haven't played since Patch 6 dropped. It makes me sad that a game that gave me so much pleasure now feels tainted by recent changes.

I was pleased the article in Gamepro, (linked above) explained that being triggered has a specific meaning and isn't just another way of saying 'felt slightly upset/ a bit uncomfortable). It's very hard to explain to someone who hasn't experienced it; it's an incredibly intense reaction and not something I would wish on anyone.

I second the sentiment the article was very well written and I appreciate the author's sensibility and getting to the core of the problem, not brushing it aside as AA fans just being whimsical.

In my case the trigger was specifically the throat grab but as you have no way of choosing which one of those awful interractions you get it makes little to no difference that really it's only one of them. I've rolled back to patch 5 till I finish this playthrough but I have difficulties actually wanting to play.

As to why it triggered me - well feel free to read below, its a bit of a horror story and very personal but I think maybe a few uncaring souls need to see it - hopefully someone at the studio, maybe they will have a greater understanding.


This is not a bit of consensual role play as shown by Tavs facial animations. If it was I would still have difficulties but could probably just manage.
This is a fantasy game not real life and no one should have to be treated like that in a game we use to have a bit of escapist fun.
The people who think its all fine and dandy worry me if I'm honest, no one should think its fine for another person to be treated like that, no real life or game choice warrants it.

Especially monogamous deep relationships seem to be the main "evil" in the game. Even before patch 6, when some people with the right to free expression came to bring the "light of truth" to other people's youtube channels, they were always talking about some collar on Tava who wanted "Aeterna amantes" with Astarion. Some active opponents of marriage also refer to a wedding ring on the finger as a "collar." The relationship with Astarion is indeed, a very real marriage, only instead of "Until death separates us" (irrelevant for immortal vampires) we have "Until the world falls down". So marriage is the main "evil" in the game?


Like the sound of a gunshot to someone who's been to war...


I sympathize with you very much. I think it's just criminal and morally damaging to a person, and it doesn't matter if we can say it out loud or not. I had a much less severe story, but the trigger also went off when I got into those kisses the first time. For me it was Astarion's disdain, pushing away and slapping me in the kiss and bite scene.



Absolutely.

I would like to add a small note to the article under discussion. This is an editorial article. Instead of the author's name there is "GamePro Redaktion". Accordingly, the article reflects the position of the whole magazine, not just one particular author.

I really really feel for you, my marriage was somewhat similar and that's why I also got triggered so badly. My ex husband was also an alcoholic drug user and extremely violent, he often grabbed my throat like that but also far worse, he gave me a brain injury for life and I suffer from ptsd and nightmares every single day even though it's been 15 years since I divorced him.

What triggered me so badly about the AA scene was that I wasn't really warned, it wasn't an add on as I thought, as I was lead on to believe with the upcoming Valentine pack, no, it was directly replacing the in game scenes which I had purchased the game with when it was released, no where had it been stated that the game was still in early access and that it could still be hugely changed and replaced, that might had made me wait for the game to be completed before purchasing it, I feel mislead.

My story is also similar. My fiancé at the time was also an alcoholic and drug user. He was
Over time and therapy I started to have less flashbacks, less night terrors, and better coping mechanisms for when they did happen. I had boyfriends that I would explore "breath play" with as a form of healing (that's not everyone's cup of tea, and that's okay) and I understand the difference of asking in game to "make it hurt" and he grabs your throat (consent), vs asking for a kiss and he grabs your throat while your character looks terrified (no consent, violent, abusive) It's extremely triggering. Even with time & therapy, not everyone gets to my point in the healing journey. It barely affected my life in recent years. I am very lucky in that regard.

Hence why it was so jarring to expect "love is in the air" and get thrown into a PTSD flashback from asking my videogame boyfriend for a kiss. I was expecting more possessiveness since I was in the "Dark Romance" route, but woah buddy did they miss the mark.

I think this is particularly what makes this so...awful. I was trapped in a relationship with an alcoholic drug user for four years. I've been away from him and in therapy for almost three now. Through it, I've learned that "reassigning abuse" is a thing. Where victims of abuse may be drawn to dark romance style roleplay either through fiction or irl in the context of a *loving and safe* environment, in order to reassign trauma with something better.

The game had designed something that typically, and unintentionally, tends to draw in people who have particular trauma. Then, either through accident, or extremely poor taste, decided it would be fun to have those people roleplay something unsafe and nonconsensual, and dropped it as a gift on *Valentine's Day.

Just...where was quality control? Was it written by AI? Why, oh why, did they think this was a good idea? I wish Larian would at least acknowledge it. Say something. Anything. Because now these same people who have been triggered by their content are getting dog piled and villainized by their entire fandom. It's a double slap. For just trying to play a game.

^^

It's intense to read and I am sure, there are more people, who read here, but don't want to write in public, and can feel now, that they're not alone. So everyone, who told about their past experience, I want to thank you, it will also help others.
And everyone who experienced harm or being sad: You are worth a sacrifice and the fight for a little justice. I feel for everyone, who got hurt by it.

Yes, of course there are a lot of people who play, but do not write their opinions on the Internet, it seems to me that there are more of them than those who write. They also don't participate in surveys, but they are there. And after such a surprise on Valentine's Day, they might just delete the game and never come back. But we won't know about it because they are not active on the internet. I have a lot of friends who play, but they never write about it online.

+100

There are always more who are silent... And after all, it's only been a month since patch 6 was released. People are still buying the game, playing it, and new players will hit these scenes regularly, more and more.

Sincere hugs and sympathy to all those affected by these scenes.

I still feel this is relevant and needs to be addressed by Larian, so I am bumping this post to keep the discussion current. <3

Hi! I was directed to this thread by @Marielle in the kissing concerns thread over on the suggestions board. I hope you don't mind me resurrecting this as I'm at the tail end of my game and my romance with Ascended Astarion has really become my Roman Empire. I'll probably be repeating some of the stuff I said over on that thread, and I've read through this entire one and found a lot of thoughts I enthusiastically agreed with and shared. I'll try not to complain about the kisses because obviously there's an entire other thread on that. Anyway, here's a freaking manifesto, I guess.

I remember watching my husband play BG3 when it first came out and seeing the occasional scene with Astarion (he didn't use him much as a companion but would talk to him in camp sometimes) and my initial reaction was pretty much just, "Well, he seems fun." I'm a big vampire junkie but have been disappointed with a lot of vampire romances in media; they usually seem to take the route that the vampire either has to be redeemed or condemned by the end. I can't think of many outside of say, Anne Rice, where a truly dark vampire love interest gets to live happily ever after. It makes sense, given society's penchant for stories that drive home some kind of moral message, especially when an "innocent woman" is involved, but to have trouble finding those kinds of endings outside of erotica (often poorly written to boot) has been a source of frustration for me for decades.

In general, the idea of being able to play a game where I could romance a vampire sounded neat but I didn't decide to commit myself to playing until I started seeing more clips of Astarion online and was just utterly captivated by his character. But there was one problem, which I'm sure is familiar to many of you. Every single post that referenced his Ascended form on socials was rife with comments about how awful it is to see him that way, how people immediately had to reload, how it's not the "correct" ending, how you lose the man your character has fallen in love with. Well, that kinda sucks, I thought. I guess I won't get to have my dark romance with a vampire lover after all, because I want him to be dark and evil, but not abusive. And yeah, to me, that's a different thing.

(Sidenote: I've seen an Instagram post that had book suggestions for your chosen BG3 romance, and the one for Astarion was A Dowry of Blood, a novel from the POV of one of Dracula's brides, and that is 100% about domestic abuse. The difference between that book's relationship and AA's relationship with Tav are quite stark, IMO.)

But, I figured, the game is supposed to be very long, and I get one, maybe two hours of play time per night, so I at least have lots of time with my cheeky vamp before I have to decide what to do and potentially get disappointed by yet another lackluster vampire romance ending, because by now the internet had me convinced it was either that or endure unquestionable, unrelenting abuse. Seriously, the discourse was basically, "Ascended Astarion is always abusive. Worse than Cazador. End of discussion." People lamented losing their "sweet boy," which didn't seem in line with what I knew of him, but okay (more on that in a bit). Most of the clips I saw of Ascended Astarion didn't seem that bad, but I realized I was also lacking context for them. So I pressed on.

Pretty much immediately, I fell as in love with him as I expected to. I've seen a lot of comments that amount to, "If you must romance Ascended Astarion, it's only okay if you're doing a durge or an otherwise evil run." But I didn't want to do either; it's my first time playing and I wanted to play the normal Tav route, and even though it's just a video game, I knew I'd have trouble playing like a straight up jerk. I saw someone else in this thread mentioning doing a "fall from grace" type of run, which pretty much describes exactly what I did; my Tav (I named her Lethe) started off as neutral/good-ish aligned, someone who grew up wanting to be a good person and do the right thing, but was also exhausted from trying to live up to everyone else's expectations of what the right thing is, always putting everyone else's happiness and needs before her own. Astarion would be one of the first people she'd ever met who is blatantly selfish and outright annoyed by altruism. She would find that very appealing. She would want some of it to rub off on her, first figuratively, then literally. It actually was a ton of fun to play it that way, I think more fun than I would have had being straight up good or evil. If I were ever to do another playthrough, I probably wouldn't create another Tav, but would play as her again, making slightly different choices depending on what I learned about her while I played, though the basic throughline would be the same. But my point is, you don't need a "reason" to have your character romance Ascended Astarion, or to have them decide to ascend him. You can just do it. Because it's your game.

Anyway, another comment I ran into a lot is that canonically in D&D, vampires have no souls and can't love, and therefore AA does not love Tav. Again, case closed. Never mind the fact that apparently, D&D lore also states that spawn have no souls and that there is no such rite of ascension outside of BG3. But okay. I'm into headcanon. I want AA to love my Tav. I still hadn't made it to Cazador's palace, but I started envisioning a scene where Astarion, scared that Lethe will leave him if he ascends and no longer loves her, because he's already established to her that vampires are a monstrous, power-hungry lot, goes to the Devil's Fee and has Helsik assist him with getting an audience with Mephistopheles. In exchange for killing Raphael (which he already knew they would probably need to do in order to get the Orphic Hammer, and we know that after you kill Raphael, Mephistopheles eats him), maybe Mephistopheles grants him the right to retain his love for Lethe. Maybe he even guarantees that she will be free if Astarion were to ever try to seriously harm her. It felt silly, but given that Helsik emphasizes discretion for her and her clients, it's not out of the realm of possibility that she would recognize Astarion and not say anything, plus it made me feel better as by now I'd pretty much decided I would ascend him, but was nervous about the apparent horrors to come.

All that to say, I spent a lot of time coming up with this headcanon, only for it to be made completely moot, because by the time all the post-ascension scenes were done, she had no problem believing Astarion still loved her and would never hurt her. First, I want to mention, like a lot of you I found the persuasion check dialog to be really lackluster. I feel like with an extra hour or so of thinking about it, the writer could have come up with a much better reason. The 7k extra souls you weren't expecting to sacrifice sure seems like a good one, but Astarion dismisses that nice and quick. So, what's left? A "life he can be proud of?" When has Astarion EVER indicated that pride in himself is a value he holds? Seriously, did I miss something? He's a rogue, FFS. From the word go he is proudly manipulating, sneaking around, and doing anything he can to achieve his goals. He doesn't give one lick about being proud of himself if it means living according to someone else's standards. If the dialog felt less forced, more organic and earned, maybe I would have gone that route. But I pictured this conversation playing out with the Astarion I'd grown to know over the past couple of months, and all I could picture when Lethe said that line was him rightly laughing in her face for thinking that would convince him. I couldn't do it, so I pressed forward, preparing myself to flinch and in general just feel like an awful person, because at this point I'd been bombarded with nothing but warnings that that's what you are if you help him ascend. You've "failed to end the cycle of abuse." As Ulma said, you're just as much of a monster as he.

I really like that the rite scene requires Tav to link minds with Astarion. I think that provides an excellent reason why any reluctant Tav might decide to join him. First of all, the animation in this scene is incredible. I recorded it and have re-watched it so many times. His menacing demeanor, the way Tav watches him with that little smirk (do all Tavs have that smirk?), it's all just so *chef's kiss*. And through that scene, I could feel what Lethe was feeling. That this was power she didn't want to let go of, even if it meant losing a part of herself. That she was finally watching her lover unleash his true potential. Was it worth 7,000 souls? She wasn't even thinking about the 7,000 souls anymore, and she certainly didn't want to be responsible for them if she'd abandoned the ritual. But be cautious, I thought. Maybe once he starts talking to her again, he'll suddenly be like a raging animal, sneering and seething at the woman he once loved.

But I want to pause a minute and ask, does that really make sense? What kind of game is this, if the player suddenly becomes an abuse victim? Patch 6 kisses notwithstanding (which I'm willing to charitably consider a misstep and hope they'll be corrected), do the anti-AA folks really think that people would want to play a game where their partner, even imaginary, is just...a total ass? What's entertaining about that? I think it comes down to a fundamental misunderstanding of what draws people to dark romance. They assume that someone who enjoys it must be an abuse survivor or victim (and so what if they are? Are they not still allowed to decide what they enjoy?), or they've been brainwashed by the patriarchy, or they would not be able to recognize abuse in a real-life partner. I'm not going to get into why all of those arguments are bunk. We all know that they are, and honestly at this point, I'm tired of entertaining them, but I think they're worth mentioning here.

That said, I do think post-Ascension Astarion, especially in the scenes directly after, is an interesting Rorschach test for someone's tolerance for dark romance tropes. Because I, personally, was hanging onto his every word like a child at storytime. I was completely lost in his expressions, marveling at how happy he looked. I saw no hints that the ritual had been a mistake, had been anything other than his best and only chance to be free. To her, he was the same person he always was, but with his inhibitions and fears removed. He was arrogant, seductive, and ready to indulge in whatever depravity the world offered him. Exactly as he'd been the day she met him. She didn't need some alteration of the contract to decide to stay with him. She trusted him, and he has shown no indication that he will betray that trust.

I recently saw a reel on Instagram by someone who regretted Ascending him (or maybe just did it "for science?" IDK), and indicated that they were triggered, or at least disturbed, by one line in particular that he speaks directly to Tav. I got freaking chills when I heard it. This other person, and I am sad that they experienced this, said it felt like Astarion was mocking their anxieties (not sure if they meant theirs, their Tav's, or both). But all I could think was, "Wow, did the writers wild shape into flies and hang out on my wall? Because this line feels like it was written for me." I assume he only says that line to a partnered Tav, and I'm not sure if there's other benchmarks that need to be met for it to trigger (like maybe the pain priest scene), but it felt so, so perfect and exactly what I envisioned a dark romance like this would feel and sound like. It didn't feel like mocking to me. It felt like a promise. But it's an interesting example of how where we see an extremely well-written and nuanced dark character, others see a straight up monster, full stop, do not pass go, do not collect $200. I could honestly talk for hours about that conversation alone. It's spectacular to me. It felt like the fulfillment of every little bad boy fantasy I'd had since I was like 14. I love all the other ascended-specific scenes too but that one just absolutely gave me an out of body experience.

In real life, would ascended Astarion be a problematic partner? Yes, absolutely. He literally owns spawn Tav. But it's not like he was cute and cuddly before. Everyone gets to love their favorite character the way they want to, but I can't help but cringe at fanart that shows him, for example, raising a child with Tav as a doting, enthusiastic father. This is a man who from day one has worn a wardrobe made of red flags. He is not a good person. He has always been a liar and manipulator; ascension doesn't really change that, and there's no reason to believe that not ascending him changes it either. I have seen AA fans get accused of being "deluded," but thinking you can fix your partner, assuming he needs fixing, is pretty futile in the real world, and almost as impossible as meeting an actual vampire. No version of Astarion is someone a healthy person should be with in real life, but I have great news. Astarion isn't real. That's why we love him. If I wanted to romance someone like Wyll, or Halsin, or Gale, well, I don't need to, because my husband is basically a combination of all three men. I understand that belonging to an evil vampire god in real life would probably not work out well for me. That's why I do it in a video game.

With all that said, I try not to engage in arguments (with myself or others) of which is the "right" path. A lot of UA fans will swear up and down that theirs is the correct course, the one Larian intended for you to take, and I know AA fans make the same case at times, but I see it more in UA fans (maybe it's just the pockets my algorithm chooses to show me). And when that comes up, what I want to say is, that's not how the game works. Larian didn't spend hours on alternate paths because one is right and one is wrong. One is darker and the other is...I guess good? More bittersweet, it certainly sounds like. If they didn't want you to take ascension, they would have just given you a Game Over and made you reload from your last save, bad job, do it again and get it right this time. BG3 is not a maze game where there's only one right path to the end. It's a series of elaborate trolley problems, and those of you who've seen The Good Place know that the point of a trolley problem is to kill as many people as possible with the trolley. Wait, crap, no, it's that there is no right answer. It's all about asking yourself, what and whom are you willing to sacrifice, and for who? For what? Those 7k souls, the only thing that the game really throws at you to deter you from the ritual, are worth exactly what you want them to be worth and nothing else. No one can make that call for you. No one can tell you what they should be worth to you, only what they were worth on their playthrough.

I know a fair amount of criticism has been lobbied at how this path has been handled, particularly by the patches, but considering even what it is now, I think what we have is pretty incredible. It could be made even better with just a few tweaks. I hope that it is. I've really enjoyed getting lost in this world, and I'm sad it's about to end, so I'll take any excuse to dive back into it again. In the meantime, I'll entertain myself by writing out scenes that must have happened between Astarion and Lethe until I get bored. Which I hope is never.
Thanks for reading. Honestly, I'm surprised this wasn't longer...

This is interesting information for me, it further clarifies the situation with the hype around the Ascended Astarion. It turns out that the image of Astarion was used not only to "show the abuser", it seems that in America and probably some other countries, this is such a hot topic, you wrote in another thread that there are a lot of movies on this topic, as I understand, it is something like a separate genre. It also turns out that vampires are also often either redeemed or condemned in the media, and it's not just our poor Astarion's problem. I'm just not that well versed on the subject, I wasn't a fan of vampire themes before, I've read Anne Rice and watched some movies, but in general I had vampires rather in the general stream of the fantasy genre and the gothic and rocker subculture, I really like both, but didn't pay much attention to vampires specifically. Astarion changed that, of course, and now I can even really understand Strahd - when I first heard about him, I thought something like, "Oh, there's nothing to do, stuck on one woman, all tough lord, so hard to find someone else...". And, now, when the "kissing curse" prevents me from "connecting with my lover", I can imagine myself in the future in a gothic gamer's chair with a pale face, melancholically going through different vampire games, and sighing sorrowfully: "No, it's not Astarion..." In all seriousness, this use of the character as hype material on abusers is really hurtful and unfair to the players. The real author of Astarion - Stephen Rooney obviously did not plan any "abuser", he said that he did not intend to create a classic "evil vampire", that no one would be interested in it, he wrote a living personality, a man who went through hell, but not broken, with a terrific sense of humor, despite everything, distrustful, embittered, but capable of deep and strong attachment to the one to whom his trust will still manage to earn. This "cycle of abuse" is, of course, in my opinion, too superficial and primitive an understanding of his story.

I always go through any RPG for the first time without spoilers to be able to be surprised, and after watching just one small general review on BG3, I bought it almost immediately after release (or already with 1 patch, I don't remember exactly). I, like you, don't have much time to play games, unfortunately, except on weekends I can afford to play all day long, plus I love to go to every corner of the world, do all the quests, read all the books, etc., and as a result I could only go through the game once. I didn't know I would meet Astarion, I fell in love with him just in the course of the game, just like in life, naturally. I really want to play him some more, create a suitable DU character with a suitable roleplay, take a body 1 that suits him better. Otherwise with body 3 (I love playing warriors too much and couldn't get past such a realistic figure for a woman able to wear full plate armor) I have Astarion looking like a little lordling in places because of the height difference. Especially in the one kiss that really amuses me (the one with the face grab) - Astarion grabs Tav by the chin and pulls down sharply, causing Tav to slouch, and the whole thing looks like "a pocket dominant and his general with a hooked back". Although it does turn me on, I can't forget that moment on the first night when Astarion jumps on Tav, imagining himself in her shoes - it's just a buzzkill. But still, Astarion would probably be better suited for a successful lordship with a woman with a body 1 more like a lady.


That's great. No, it's funny, of course, but okay, I already had a desire to play this game as "evil", so, okay, I'll show the world an evil DU, as long as it's " okay". About the "fall from grace" thing - yeah, I had that too, though it didn't turn out quite intentionally. I really liked the whole game world at first, I got into all the companions at first, I wanted to take care of everyone around me, make it better. Tav was initially something like an active leader and "problem solver", a bit reckless, climbing everywhere she could and couldn't, helping everyone, refusing rewards, yes, Astarion was generous in his disapproval at the very beginning... "Ice Charm" - so jokingly I teased him about myself (from a book about vampires, the first of which is literally right in the first tomb: "Beware of the vampire. Beware of his icy charms..."). The surprise effect of Astarion being a vampire won't work in the game, even without spoilers, because he is introduced in the character creation editor. But I didn't understand what it was like to be a vampire, I didn't understand that it meant that the whole "good" world was against him, it was fun for me: "Oh, a vampire in a companion, cool!". I thought he was being mean because of his bad temper, I thought it was funny too, I hoped there would be some plot points with him when I could somehow negotiate or help with something, strike a balance so that the "evil companion", which I thought he was at the time, wouldn't get completely pissed off and leave the group (it happened in BG2). "Night Under the Stars" impressed me a lot, it was the first good conversation I had with him, and I was just picking the most flirtatious lines possible, like "What are you waiting for?" because he was swearing at me during the day, and I was wondering how he would react to my sass. I thought no romance would work out, I knew he could say no, and I didn't want to "cave" to him and make the game choices that would suit him. I even thought I might have to romance Gale, and after the bite - what, okay, if it doesn't work out with Astarion, I'll accept it, it's realistic, I'll go through the game single, without a couple, maybe then I'll go "evil", we'll see... During the bite scene, I understood him for the first time, I recognized part of his story, I read his thoughts about eating rats, I saw such surprise on his face when I agreed to the bite... And the bite itself - I didn't want to stop him, I let him finish eating himself to the end without throwing checks. Then I overplayed it, passed the check, and he thanked me so sincerely. I guess the first "step towards evil" was choosing to make an "evil remark" towards Gale during the conversation at camp after the bite. He wanted to kick Astarion out of the group, and I, disregarding my previous principles of balance and good communication with all companions, honestly told him that if he was not satisfied with Astarion, he could get out of here himself. And himself to look for artifacts "to feed" (I then still thought that it will be necessary to feed him with magic items for the whole game). Well, there was no such line, but I thought something like that. Well and killing of Gandrel, probably, can be considered "evil deed", though I believed Astarion that it was the killer from Cazador, and waited for the next killers in the future, but Will later talked to the corpse, the corpse had a line: "He knows where our children are". But what children, I'll find out later somehow in the story, I guess Astarion had probably asked me out before that - that was the big news! Really, after the Ascension I didn't make a particularly evil character, I was too happy, the world was shining in all colors again, I even set myself challenges like "save every single Gondians in the Foundry", and it was the hardest fight in chapter 3, much worse than the battle with Brain, those suicidal guys were dying with a desperate zeal, I spent two weekends to save the lives of those little pixel people. Like a jerk I played when I tried to play with the new kisses, I didn't do the best things to the people around me, I lashed out at everyone ("cycle of abuse" kicked in after all, didn't it?) and I saw no other option for Tav with such Astarion but to get Brain under control.

Regarding canons and souls. There is no mention of "losing his soul" in the game, on the contrary, Astarion says that Mephistopheles has no power over him. I first learned about "soul" only from the spawns' comments, and even, at first I forgot it was about DnD, I took it as just a normal religious thing. I respect all religions, but I myself am an atheist, I believe only in what is proven by science, and about the "loss of soul" periodically heard and in reality in my address from believers, so I took it at first with the usual skepticism. Then it dawned on me that actually in the world of Faerûn souls are a part of objective reality, and I started to worry about this problem. A familiar DM said that vampire souls go to the Astral Sea, and I believed it, but not so long ago I found time to dig into the lore of DnD.

First off, Larian used a home rule for all vampires in the game right away. Yes, in 5th edition vampires are monsters, they are a priori evil (alignment after conversion becomes neutral-evil, it doesn't matter what it was before). But it happens at once, at the moment of conversion into a vampire spawn, there is no exact information about the influence of further "upgrades" on the vampire's evilness, but logically, it should not affect it, the improved vampire does not get evilly from it (if Larian would observe the lore, the vampire would have nowhere to "get evilly", he is already quite evil). In the game, vampire spawns (not just Astarion, but others) are not "monsters" of any kind, they feel and behave just like normal humans with their own personalities. The vampires of DnD 5th are also supposed to have manias, where do we see a single mania in a vampire in the game? Veliot is a maniacal psychopath, and Cazador is a broken maniacal psychopath, and the rest of them?

Souls. All vampires are children of Mephistopheles, vampirism is his gift (or curse). All vampires go to hell when they die. All of them without exception - Astarion Spawn, Astarion Lord, Tav - Astarion's spawn, all 7000 spawns (and it doesn't matter when they die, during the ritual or sometime afterward). But you don't need to worry so much (in general, you need to worry, in my headcanon I've already calculated and competent defense of the castle, and how to make a secret "bunker" to store Astarion's coffin, and Lord's "fake coffin" as bait, my main task is to do everything so that he never met Mephistopheles), but you shouldn't kill yourself directly. Hell on Faerûn is not the "hell for sinners" in our religions, it's more like a large corporation, cruel but with its own effective rules. Weak and useless souls, of course, can go into soul coins or Asmodeus' furnace, and their fate will be unenviable. But just torturing a powerful vampire, the kind that could become an effective employee of the corporation, Mephistopheles will not. Astarion and Tav will have to work for Mephistopheles, yes, it's worse than having fun in the castle and being free, but it will be like Karlach's service to Zariel when she drove troops in hellish battles, not like torturing sinners in the "classic" hell. The terms of service are unknown, it might even be possible to do something important for Mephistopheles, get resurrected and freed (well, until the next death, of course), but they'll be together, no one will aim to separate a perfectly matched fighting pair, it's not effective, and they'll live. Albeit a different, not so beautiful life, but they will.

The value of the Ascension ritual, then, to Mephistopheles is not that 7000 were sacrificed once, but that these 7000 were turned into spawn in the first place. No vampire would make 7000 spawns for nothing, and the Ascension is a motivation, a reward for the work, a bonus of sorts. When a lawful stupid paladin kills those 7000 - he sends them straight to Mephistopheles, they already belong to him, it's just that no one takes the reward, Mephistopheles laughs, I guess, at that. When these 7000 are set free - they too will go to him someday, sooner, later, when the time comes, like all vampires. Maybe some of them will survive, escape, drink vampire blood, and make their own Ascension someday, except. Vampires are bound to Hell, and they go to Hell, their souls can't be "saved" except by ridding them of the curse of vampirism, which is the only way they can get to Kelemvor and some deity's domain after death.


Yeah, I was both hurt and saddened by that line the first time around too. I already spoilered for myself, Astarion's ritual was too important to follow the principles of a "pure" first game. Ascended I tried not to spoiler myself, but I read UA on the net about all those "insults", "Astarion will never respect Tav" (and for me respect is very important in a relationship, I respected Astarion and treated him as gently as I could), and damn it, I didn't come across a single intelligent AA comment at the time that made me feel any better. I was "going to the execution" as it was, I decided I was going to make it to the end, bring Astarion to his "evil" finale where he would be fine, and never touch this game again. I remembered how once, when I knew he'd seduced me for protection, which he really, really needed in this world, even though he might not have done it and I was on his side, even before the seduction, my Tav had thought, "If I have any power, I'll take it all, Astarion, and cover you with it like a cloak against the world." And then Tav saw that he didn't need it anymore. And well, I'll still be your shield, and your sword, no matter what happens. I guess if those kisses had happened then, I probably wouldn't have been so angry, I would have pushed through it, maybe made some evil around to get even, but I still would have brought him to his finale.

But the other thing that happened was, "You gave me everything. Thank you." And it felt real, it felt like I really deserved those lines, it felt serious. And his gratitude afterward, his joy, his playfulness, his wonderful "treasure", "Aeterna Amantes". There was no submission. I would never want to part with him, on the contrary, I would not let him go from me myself. All those " angry" lines when he yells aren't for me, they're for someone else, so why should I care about them? I'd probably yell too if he brought some other spawn and wanted a "free relationship" with a threesome. Then poor Lord would probably learn the meaning of the phrase, "Hell hath no fury like an angry woman" and the whole D/s would go down in flames. Only he wouldn't want that, I can really trust him, Astarion would never betray. That's a huge rarity. That's my "gold flag".

It's interesting to me that these might both be uniquely American things, both the "Lifetime movie" trope we discussed in the other thread, and the idea that if a woman enjoys a story with a darker love interest, there must be something wrong with her. We saw it with Twilight and 50 Shades (and I'm ashamed to say I participated in some of the bashing, though a lot of that was because I thought the writing was embarrassingly bad and the characters ridiculously flat), and we're seeing it again with Astarion, but bonus points because this is a playable story, so there must be something extra wrong with you if you want to act it out.




Those little bastards. I think I was lucky if I was able to keep one or two of them alive at the end. I lost all of them the first time and the blind one was so sad that I reloaded and did the whole dang fight again, even though I didn't have to.



That's interesting! The closest thing to a negative emotion I felt for that line was surprise, that the game would so blatantly point out that a player who ascends him might be someone who likes to be dominated. It's not a source of anxiety for me; it's something I've long accepted as something I'm into.


I understand the point of view of people who say, "Ascended Astarion is only nice to you as long as you agree with everything he says." But I think that assumes that a Tav who agrees with him is ONLY doing it to not incur his wrath, and not because they genuinely do agree with him. If you break up with him before the endgame, he gets furious. Of course he does! Because where the hell is that coming from after everything you did for him? It would be weird if he didn't get mad. Besides, it's hard to make that argument when there were plenty of lines that weren't straight up agreeing with him, or even disagreeing with him. When he suggests we control the brain and I tell him we can't trust it, he just says, "We'll see." Yeah, I guess that's a good point! Neither of us knew at this point if we could actually trust it. He doesn't even get mad if you refuse to bite the drow twins in the brothel. So cruel, right? I just can't get down with condemning a character simply because of the potential for him to turn into a monster offscreen.