Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Less racism in the game?

Thank you, Ecc2ca, and it's a good point about the thread title not helping. As the OP hasn't been back for a few days, I'm going to make an executive decision to change it from "Less racist bullshit?" to "Less racism in the game?".

But you are right that despite the fact the OP expressed themself in a way that was somewhat provocative and inflammatory, as I've already called out in this thread, it's not okay to respond in kind, and as I said above, anyone who rises to the bait after all my moderator interventions is just going to earn themselves a warning. Folks, don't do it !

Respectfully I don't think that title change makes it any less inflammatory. The OP accuses Larian (having seen the credits and interviews etc it's a very diverse company) of being racist, one of the most inflammatory epithets one can throw around these days. Accusing them of bias (unfounded as well in my opinion) is bad enough but racist is a whole other level of moral failing and is something done with conscious and deliberate malice. We've heard a lot about threats towards the developers recently and while the OP doesn't cross that line specifically throwing around accusations of racism are irresponsible, unsupportable, and potentially incendiary.

While I agree we should all be polite I also feel the OP is being given too much deference for what comes off as a deliberately provocative post designed to stir up trouble.

In my original post in this thread I warned the OP that they came across as intentionally controversial. The point is not that the original post was okay but that two (or more) wrongs don't make a right, and that it is not conducive to friendly and constructive debate here to have an ongoing stream of people lashing out at the same post or poster, so we should just ignore the post if that's all we have to say in response. But that anyone who does have an interest in civilly discussing any of the issues raised in good faith is welcome to do so.

I hope that's now clear, and I'd ask anyone who would like to discuss moderation as opposed to the topic at hand to PM me. I do welcome feedback, but in thread is not the place for it!

(As to whether the title change makes things better, I hoped it was at least less heated without the swearing. I was trying to tone it down slightly without completely changing the meaning, which latter I really don't think would be appropriate. Sorry if it didn't help.)

I'd not say it is unsupported. You can see the bias by comparing the amount of dialogue content in the game, which has been done. On launch Wyll had the least content of all companions (I think something like four hours less than Astarion?), and certain aspects of is writing are problematic. The disparity continues and people have, rightfully imo, pointed out that he gets less priority in the patches. E.g. the fabled Valentines patch and apparently he still doesn't get a kiss or hug in the epilogue like other origin companions. Considering Halsin, who is a meme character at this point, gets more attention, this does stand out. Maybe not to you, and maybe not on these boards, but people have been talking about this.

I agree that there are problems with Wyll, and that (at least partly) these are related to his race. Despite him getting the most interesting class, his personality is kinda boring. He feels like the most generic fantasy good guy with zero depth and complexity. As also seen in many recent movies or series, characters who "bear the burden of representation" tend to be portrayed as strong but boring people. They can't have any interesting flaws or quirks, because that would jeopardize their role as "inspirational representation". Flaws make a fictional character engaging, but the flaws on a representational character can be easily perceived as a comment on the the whole group. If Wyll had a more complex personality, people like the OP would point out the supposed racism behind the darker parts. For reasons of safety (white) writers will create dull goody personalities for PoC characters.
Another issue with Wyll from a gameplay perspective is that he fits the same role as Gale, whom you most likely meet earlier. Gale as a more generic wizard also seems like a safer bet, especially on a first run. This alone puts Wyll into a tough spot. If he was a paladin he would be more popular, and thus getting more attention from Larian. There is no need to look for any racism here. Especially the outright hostile racism OP seems to cry about.

[i][/i]
Observing that Wyll's character has less content and then using that observation to assert the developers, writers, or Larian as a company is racist is a bridge too far. "People have been talking..." is not evidence of anything. Again the OP accuses someone at Larian (or the entire company?) of racism because he has less content. As well in your post you mention "bias" which is not the same accusation as the OP. For the record, the suggestion of bias is also supported by very thin gruel but at least it's not as reckless and incendiary.

As for the observation Wyll's content is less I've not seen this evidence. Even if accurate what exactly does this represent? Less words? Fewer dialogue choices? Less compared to who? Just Astarion? Significantly less than the average of the other Origin characters? It seems a poor measuring stick for anything let alone a cudgel to beat the developers with one of the most heinous epithets that can be casually tossed around these days.

Less dialogue content (as measured by the time of extracted voice lines, which someone extracted and uploaded on yt) and less scenes in comparison to all origin characters. Astarion has simply the most content, so the difference is the biggest.

I am an older player, and frankly, I have former my opinion after several playthroughs and seeing how the reported bugs as well as feedback got ignored. You might consider that unfounded, I do not.

Back in the EA there have been quite a few male players who complained that Wyll is so boring, but his patron is so sexy and they would rather have his story be about her. Keep in mind that her datamined human model was that of an attractive white woman. And my opinion, after a few playthroughs, is that Larian decided to court this crowd. When I have tried Wyll's romance, it lacked even something as simple as a lovers greeting, it was just the generic "well met". In a game advertised for adult content, his had none. And yet Mizora, who acts in an abusive manner towards Wyll, who keeps making her comparisons to a 'puppy', whose existence in act three is questionable besides the interference in the rescue quest, gets a fully animated sex scene. Offered in the most obnoxious way possible, because even if you dislike her, you cannot even get her to leave. Imagine an immortal Cazador or Viconia getting a place in your camp with no input from the player. Instead Astarion and Shadowheart get fully realized questlines culminating in being able to get back at their abuser. And you can let them make their own choice, whereas Wyll's questline culminates with the protagonist telling him what to do instead of letting him make that choice, and the emperor taking the spotlight on the final quest.

On a side note, I'd say most discussions about how Larian approached Wyll's character compared to other origins happen outside of these forums. Some topics require more moderation than others, and moderation here is very lax. It is not as bad as Larian's official discord (when I have tried it), but that is not much.

Lots of good points, but I think this part becomes more difficult to avoid when the game only has one black origin character/companion. Regardless of the devs' intentions, he kind of becomes the representative for how they choose to portray black main characters. If the game had six black characters with backgrounds and story lines then I don't think anyone would think it was racist if each of them had different negative traits and complex personalities. On the other hand, making the one white guy a paragon of virtue in such a scenario might be interpreted differently

A recent thing that annoys me greatly in regards to Wyll is how he continues to get overshadowed by other characters in his own content. If he is without Karlach in the epilogue, he has tons of things to say and they are a joy to listen to - if he is with Karlach, he only refers you to her and she does most of the talking. This tradition is continued in the Avernus sequence that was recently added for everyone in which Wyll gets the completely silent Tav role and Karlach explains to him how to hunt demons .... not that he was chasing her in the beginning and she only barely escaped.

It's probably not racism though, but favouritism towards another character whom he is closely entangled with.

Why is the backstory of Wyll's father just ignored by the people searching hard for racism in the game ? He went from simple flaming fist soldier to grand duke all on his own merit. And whereas seemingly all fists in the city of BG are corrupt Gortash followers, the only one who dares to go against the usurping archduke is counbcelor Florick, who will pay for it with her life if the party doesn't free her.
Please look at everything and not simply pick and choose just to be able to slam the company.

Wyll's original EA concept was much darker, and people complained he was too bland all the same. Wyll was motivated not only by heroism, but also revenge, to the point where he was willing to make evil choices to get what he needed (torture the prisoner in goblin camp to obtain information). Same goes for his father, there was a dialogue where he hinted at the duke being not such a good person either. Larian chose to change his character concept last minute, though they left some of his old questline (Mizora being trapped in moonrise towers and needing a rescue).

I don't recall people commenting about his EA characterization being racist, though obviously it is possible there was feedback like this, as only Larian would know about it. The complaints that I have seen were that he was bland, despite that he had very obvious flaws. But for me this is not about his characterization, it is about the amount of content and focus on Mizora (and in last quest to emperor), and how she is handled in the game.

That said, there is also some Astarion writing I find problematic, but I have lost much interest in discussing that character.

At least I wasn't being mean, I simply pointed out the fact that OP doesn't know anything about the setting, they should read up the source material, and do research before throwing accusations at people, I have no problem with people throwing accusations as long they do the research and have solid evidence to back it up,

as for Wyll it probably has something to do with how he was rewritten last minute, He wasn't remotely connected to Karlach at all in EA, since that connection makes him a bit overshadowed by Karlach,

it also doesn't help that he had a bit of an edge in EA like where he tortures Spike the Goblin for taking his eye, the rewrite version made him bland by making him a goody goody type which doesn't fit the warlock class at all, it seems like EA

Wyll had more personality especially during the times in EA where Wyll clumsily jumps down and immediately dies from the fall outside of the Druid Grove due to a bug in his code, a quick revive could get him back on his feet.

Because it doesn't fit the narrative that the developers are racist. Contradictory evidence is always unwelcome to conspiracy theorizing.

Source?

How much less? Perhaps some of the writing conveyed information more succinctly in regards to Wyll's story.

However more to the point so what? How is this evidence of racism? One origin character was bound to be the one with the least content.

i romanced Wyll on EA and I was shocked to see how much different he is. He had more personality in EA in my opinion.

I think the proof of racism is the fact that people will dislike him no matter what. People in EA complained that he was boring apparently even tho I think he was more interesting than FR. And now people think hes even more boring, sorry but I do.

I want to give another perspective about Wyll tho, wyll in EA was more aggressive (every other companions were) but you need to remember that Larian is a white studio with main office in Belgium afaik and DnD is massively white, I say this as a non-white. I will say that the change to wyll's character already takes diversity and sensitivity issue to account. Because I do believe they changed Wyll to be mild and goody two shoes because Larian did not want to fall into aggresive and hypersexualized black man trope. So they changed him, now why he had less content it was because his story was rewritten and new lines had to be recorded. They probably did not have time to flesh his current story in a game as ambitious as this. People compared him to Astarion as a proof of racism bur Astarion only got minor changes not a complete personality change meanwhile Wyll had to be rewritten. Wyll in EA hates goblin, had a warped sense of justice, vengeful, and mizora was his ex that he still had feelings for. You need to persuade him to stop thinking about mizora to be able to sleep with him. In the end I do beliebe Larians intention was well, writing about a black man is hard because there needs to be consideration and they already tried to be sensitive by removing Wyll's aggression sexuality. (Though i dont think he was, it was just my guess because now he isnt in relationship with Mizora. Its probably to prevent him being too simular to gale, but the fact that it's wyll and not gale that's changed despite mizora being front and center in the promo leaads me to beliebe they wanted to avoid hypersexualization of black men)

Thays my two cents, i wish they would included back EA wyll but its already a lost cause now.

This does not suggest that people dislike him no matter what. I haven't played EA, but in the "final" product, he is most certainly boring. He is constantly overshadowed by the side characters of his story. Even his final quest has almost nothing to do with him.
They have probably made Wyll like this to avoid the criticism of people like the OP, who love to yell racism at every half-opportunity. It was most likely a corporate choice, based on marketing considerations. They needed to include a black character, but could not risk to make him complex and thus potentially controversial. We need to remember that this game is not a piece of art created by a single artist with deep personal convictions, but a product to be sold to the masses.

This is complicated. On one hand, I see this as assigning a lot of harsh motives to Larian and possibly trying to blame them for theme decisions that they were likely contractually obligated to adhere to as part of making a licensed D&D product. On the other hand, there comes a point where someone is so used to being dismissed that they will hear most disagreement as dismissal. There's a part of me that can't help but feel that the first and fifth points show this is an attempt to generate controversy for its own sake, but I can't read anyone's mind.

That said:
1. As I understand it, Karlach "Getting the ending she deserves" was in the context of restoring content people were disappointed was cut rather than some kind of statement about what she as a character or someone in an analogous situation deserves on principle.
2. Wyll's contract is portrayed not as laziness but, to avoid spoilers, the result of desperation, youthful naivete, and his burning passion to do good being used to manipulate him. Gale on the other hand is privileged and arrogant, never once considering that his family and education had as much to do with his achievements as innate talent. You don't get a wizard's education for free.
3. My understanding is that Minthara's lack of content comes from her side character status more than anything else. Some of that does have to do with the fact that the drow in Forgotten Realms are a fairly flat "Evil backwards matriarchy with minority themes" trope as per decades of pulp sci-fi/fantasy, but considering how late some of the characters were added in... I can't speak to what drove that writing decision.
4. Speaking from personal experience Lae'zel's story separate from the context is one of a fanatic who wholeheartedly believes in an abusive, controlling power structure's propaganda and stated ideals while struggling to rationalize the visible failures she encounters and eventually comes to reject that authority. I went through something similar when dealing with my fundamentalist upbringing. The context, however, is problematic because of the Githyanki starting out as a pastiche of Imperial Japan as well as being an IC culture. That's another can of worms entirely.
5. This is flat-out false and on the level of "You have to watch a tiefling child get killed" as a take when it's something you can prevent with a skill-less dialogue choice. Stuff like this is why I'm wary.

I agree.

While I respect the work and time the moderators put into the forums, I remain concerned about the bias. If, for example, someone made a post saying the refugees were treated with too much sympathy, showcasing them as the "good guys" and those against refugees as "bad guys," then the post would have been locked. I'm not guessing when I say that, by the way. It's happened before.

But when the complaint swings the other way, suddenly there appears to be leniency. I find it very disturbing and unhealthy for the community. I have offered feedback about this behind the scenes before.

*

Anyway. To address the original post: I disagree.

I'm not looking for a real world social agenda when I play a fantasy game. I'm looking for a world full of interesting cultures, and I expect those cultures to clash. Conflict is a good thing in storytelling.

Personally, I'd like to see more conflict. I find the portrayal of races and cultures in BG3 to be one of the worst things about the game. Specifically, once you get to the city, the races become costumes more than cultures. The city is populated with NPCs that seem to have races chosen by random. If that's the way it's going to be approached, then just remove the races because they're no longer bringing anything to the table.

I want to see the devilish side of tieflings. I want to see them portrayed as dangerous, with devilish powers... like they have. I want monster races like hobgoblins to be monstrous. I want to see drow in all their wicked glory.

In short, I'd like to see more culture and more clashing of culture. I want the races to matter in the story.

I feel the need to say again, as I did in response to Ranxerox’s post, that I have already warned the OP for the provocative tone of their posting, including in this thread, and when asking people here not to respond in kind and either ignore or discuss the issues raised constructively and in good faith, that is about asking everyone to respect the rules of this forum and does not reflect approval of or agreement with the original post.

And to repeat that while we welcome feedback on moderation decisions, in thread is not the place, please contact us privately or use the post report functionality.

(Like any other thread, this would be locked if there was continued failure to adhere to forum rules after warnings and discussion degraded to argument, but I think most of the discussion here has so far been a positive example of how even potentially sensitive and divisive topics can be addressed in a friendly and respectful way, despite the thread’s unpromising start. Thank you to everyone who has contributed to that!)

The main issue with Wyll is the writing, I don't think anyone dislikes him, just that he comes off as boring, He could be interesting, but there really isn't anything that separates him from other companions, Astairon has his Vampirism, Shadowheart has her D20 (Astral Prism), Shar and her Amnesia, Karlach got an Infernal engine, Lae'Zel is basically an Alien and Gale is addicted to Magic,

While Wyll could use some spice, at least he isn't Hated like Halsin (Guy is written worst than Wyll, comes off as a creepy nice guy) or Bullied like Gale, (I'm probably the only person here who bullies Gale, sorry Gale buddy, but this is what you get for eating "MY Stuff")

Wyll is treated better than some companions in my games, I mean at least he's isn't treated like Gale, Gale in my games usually gets Hag Eyed, Branded, Forced to go Shoeless and is always dressed like Homeless Person, I replaced his staff with a pitchfork, My Dad even refers to Gale as my torture victim.

Maybe Wyll can get a DLC, where he gets something unique and special,