I just finished my first playthrough and went with Shadowheart as my partner, and it was a truly wonderful experience, but the one thing I was disappointed with was that at no point in the romance was I given the option to tell her "I love you." I've seen clips of Karlach's reaction to saying "I love you" to her, and it's such a cute moment, I wish I could've had a moment like that with Shadowheart, to see how she reacts to being told that in no uncertain terms as opposed to the usual coy flirting. Honestly, it should be available for every romance, given the weight those words can have in any relationship.
On that note, I also really loved the new kissing animations added with patch 6, but if anyone at Larian is interested in my thoughts, there are a few tweaks and a few more additions I'd personally really love!
Firstly, and this doesn't just have to be limited to your romance partner, but it'd be nice to be able to hug your companions like you can at the reunion during the rest of the game, when they know you enough to agree to it of course.
Secondly, the reset to standing apart after a kiss is a bit awkward, so it'd be really nice if each kiss would pause while you're still close or embracing and give you the option to keep kissing which can be selected repeatedly, pull back and keep talking, or leave the conversation. Similarly, hugging could pause while you're in the embrace and would just need an option to pull back for when you want to end it.
Thirdly, it'd be really wonderful to have the option to cuddle with your companion while you're at camp, but I totally get that that's probably the biggest ask cuz it'd require more mocapping and even more dialog to be mocapped in that position rather than the usual standing face to face positioning unless you implemented it with no dialog.
If anyone else has any thoughts or suggestions of their own, I'd love to hear them!
As someone who romanced Karlach very often, Shadowheart lacks sorely in the 'I love you' department. It's like both her and Tav are scared to say those magic words somehow.
I get it, actions can show love but it's also nice on occasion, to tell your LI you love them or hear it from them.
As someone who romanced Karlach very often, Shadowheart lacks sorely in the 'I love you' department. It's like both her and Tav are scared to say those magic words somehow.
I get it, actions can show love but it's also nice on occasion, to tell your LI you love them or hear it from them.
Totally agree with your post.
She calls Tav "true love" or "love", but no option directly tell her those words do suck.
As someone who romanced Karlach very often, Shadowheart lacks sorely in the 'I love you' department. It's like both her and Tav are scared to say those magic words somehow.
I get it, actions can show love but it's also nice on occasion, to tell your LI you love them or hear it from them.
Totally agree with your post.
She calls Tav "true love" or "love", but no option directly tell her those words do suck.
But she also never directly says "I love you" either. That could be a nice little conversation. Maybe asking why she's afraid to say it? It could lead to some potentially nice scene where SH explains it.... which of course won't happen. Eh.
As someone who romanced Karlach very often, Shadowheart lacks sorely in the 'I love you' department. It's like both her and Tav are scared to say those magic words somehow.
I get it, actions can show love but it's also nice on occasion, to tell your LI you love them or hear it from them.
Totally agree with your post.
She calls Tav "true love" or "love", but no option directly tell her those words do suck.
But she also never directly says "I love you" either. That could be a nice little conversation. Maybe asking why she's afraid to say it? It could lead to some potentially nice scene where SH explains it.... which of course won't happen. Eh.
True, I was trying to say that this is supposed to be not a big deal, since she calls you thant and, well, how her romance plays out and ends up. But it for sure would be a nice addition. As I said, I think the best timing for this is to add this to her "future plans" act 3 scene.
As someone who romanced Karlach very often, Shadowheart lacks sorely in the 'I love you' department. It's like both her and Tav are scared to say those magic words somehow.
I get it, actions can show love but it's also nice on occasion, to tell your LI you love them or hear it from them.
Totally agree with your post.
In acts 1 and 2, I could see saying it causing Shadowheart to pull away in actual fear from her upbringing, which would be interesting to see too, but saying it back should have as much weight as her swimming scene in her casting off the shackles of her past. That might actually be the perfect scene to say it in IMO.
Throughout act 3 and even after the final fight, she repeatedly asks you if you really want to stay by her side or if you regret what you've done with her. Every time you call her beautiful she says "I know" with such confidence, it just tugs on my heartstrings how she can't help but fear that you might change your mind at the last moment, and it takes months of being together for her to truly feel safe.
I just wanna give her a hug and tell her I love her and that I'm never changing my mind! It really would be so nice to say and to hear her say back.
As I said, I think the best timing for this is to add this to her "future plans" act 3 scene.
Personally, I'd be interested to see her reaction to saying it post grove/pre nightsong, but I think the best timing to say it and for her to say it back is the swimming scene, when she's casting off her past inhibitions and fears. I think she actually does fear those words, she fears committing to someone only to lose them or for them to leave her. It honestly brought me to tears a little to hear her say all those hopeful things when you talk to her in the final fight after a lifetime of hopelessness.
Just wanted to up-post as I agree it would be so great if you could cuddle your romanced companion at camp, and you're so on point about pausing after a kiss so you can decide to kiss again or talk or leave. Just some subtle things to make things feel a little more streamlined and romantic, rather than disjointed in that moment. Adding hugs for romanced companions would be so good too, and sometimes it would be nice to give companions a friendly (platonic) hug if they're going through a hard time.
I don't know what it is like for Shadowheart's kisses, but for Gale's kiss animations it is relevant that you stand apart at the beginning and the end because none of them were conceptualised as part of a make-out session. One of them even plays into the theme that he just wants to give the PC a little playful peck on the cheek and the PC reals him back in. So I am quite alright with that because the kisses are beautiful and I can suspend disbelieve enough to put them in a row
I do agree having the ability to tell characters you love them would be good in their can we talk about us dialogue you can tell them at critical points in the story especially after their personal quest completion.
Spawn Astarion certainly could do with the reassurance.
I disliked how unsure Spawn Astarion feels about your feelings towards him during the epilogue... when you get the choices of what you want to do. He acted like you were still just a fling... after his graveyard scene where he made it clear he wants you in his future. I like that he needs affirmation, but I felt like we couldn't give him adequate affirmation during that epilogue scene before the party. "I love you" and seeing the joy it might bring to have him hear that would be amazing. Why is Karlach the only one we can love?
I didn't see Spawn Astarion's reaction as a show of insecurity about your relationship, at least not completely, more as an insecurity about how to be in an equal relationship. For most of the game he has been trying to manipulate you into doing what he wants, now you are partners he doesn't want to do that any longer and takes the decision-making to the other extreme and becomes a bit too careful. I don't think an "I love you" adequately fixes the lack of actually doing/deciding things together or makes up for not being able to tell him how highly you think of him - in case you do, of course. I'd also wish the affirmation in the couple scene at the end was more enthusiastic - it would have been such a great place to fire that "There's nothing I want more" back at him.
I'm tempted to put a copy of my original post under suggestions and feedback, but this is why I put it here, besides that I didn't see that section lol.
IMO saying "I love you" can convey so much more than that you're absolutely committed to the relationship and will never leave. It can convey that you want what they want, not just because you're passing on the choice to them, but because you are so on the same wavelength that you literally feel exactly the same way they do and your decisions match up.
In spawn astarion's case, it could be perfect for conveying that your relationship isn't just a manipulation like all the flings he tricked under cazador's command and for getting him to admit to himself the truth of his own feelings. You chose him of your own free will and he chose you of his, and both your feelings are real.
"There's nothing I want more" would also be a great option, but I think you're underestimating the power and meaning of the words "I love you."
Am I too argumentative again? I am sorry, I can stop, if you prefer. I get the feeling that discussion these days often just means agreeing.
I think, "I love you" "I am in love with you" is a nice thing to say. It tells the other person that they hold a special place in your heart, but that's about it. It makes no statement about which gravity this feeling holds for you - some people use it lightly others don't, the Astarion romance even makes fun of it in the beginning. The "you are the one I love, the one I want" and Astarion's "I love you, I love this" are well suited for the graveyard scene as a sealing of the bond, as a confirmation that you are in a proper relationship now, but they don't have gravitas.
What I mean by that. As an example: I romanced Astarion with Gale. During his audience with Mystra, he has an option to tell her that his new love is the reason he defied her orders. How great would it be, if he could tell the same to Astarion? For me telling Astarion you defied your goddess for him, that the only reason you are alive is because he reached out and gave you something to live for, holds much more weight than another "I love you". And I am sure that for all the other Origins and Durge you could find similar points in their personal quests in which Astarion has been the character's saviour.
Even telling him how scared you were for him when Cazador zapped him away for the ritual would be nice. It's a shared memory that could be used to show that you can really overcome difficult situations together, without needing the power of some devilish ritual.
First of all, no you weren't being to argumentative, you just expressed a contradictory opinion to mine and given my limited knowledge of how astarion's romance goes and my own interpretation of the meaning of the phrase, I disagreed, and that's okay!! That's what these forums are for, for expressing ourselves and our different experiences with a great game!
In case my first paragraph wasn't clear, I meant that the reason why it fits here and not just under the suggestions is because this discussion is primarily about how romances develop for each character and what we could do or say in the romance that would be interesting to explore their character further or that would just make us happy to see! It's a character discussion!
I wasn't aware that astarion uses the words "I love you" at the start of the relationship to seal the deal. That's completely different from shadowheart's romance where she's scared of openly acknowledging the relationship or even admitting her feelings because of her upbringing. I guess it makes sense given how astarion was going out in public seducing people with no regard for the consequences of anything he said and then returning to that mansion to be abused.
Tho in my original post I specifically said saying "I love you" should be available in every romance, and in this case those words are already exchanged with astarion in the game, I can see why you'd want a different exchange to convey those same, intense feelings that might help the character feel reassured in the relationship when those words in particular don't carry as much weight for him.
Although, idk if you've seen this scene from good will hunting, but sometimes something that just sounds like a platitude because you've heard it so many times from people who didn't mean it or said it without meaning it yourself, when said with sincerity, when said over and over with patience and love, can tear down the walls you put up around your heart. I wonder if maybe those words that sound so insincere to astarion, words that are just part of a ritual to force commitment in an otherwise untrustworthy relationship he knows can end with betrayal at a moments notice without it, might be able to break through to him if you had the option to say them to him again and again, as many times as you'd like.
Last edited by Orenji-kun; 12/03/2412:48 AM. Reason: Clarifying first reply and cleaning up useless brackets
I support you, this is a very necessary option in dialogues, especially in Act 3, where unfortunately we have a minimum of communication with companions.
Exactly the same as all characters should have a “first kiss”.
Greg Lidstone (Larian Studios) said it well in an interview: “I think for a lot of people, that first kiss is key. It’s the culmination of the relationship and would cheapen the player experience to cut away from it. The player has invested time and emotion to get here and they want that payoff to their commitment, and we certainly didn’t want to let them down.”
But it’s strange that Gale, for example, doesn’t actually have this “first kiss”. This kiss looks weird (Last Night Alive). Even worse, it has been added to a dialogue where many people use it as an option when they simply don’t want to talk about their feelings or the feelings just aren’t there.
It's disappointing that such an important point was simply missed. It would be nice if Larian changed the scene, or added that kiss earlier, in some other scene.
But it’s strange that Gale, for example, doesn’t actually have this “first kiss”. This kiss looks weird (Last Night Alive). Even worse, it has been added to a dialogue where many people use it as an option when they simply don’t want to talk about their feelings or the feelings just aren’t there.
It's disappointing that such an important point was simply missed. It would be nice if Larian changed the scene, or added that kiss earlier, in some other scene.
What's wrong with it or with using a kiss when your character does not want to talk about their feelings because they are a bit muddled? I like that scene and think it's overall very sweet.
I am not purposefully dense, but what do you mean by "skip it" option? That it does not feel like the climax of the scene?
I would be really sad if the scene was changed in any way because as far as romances go, I do like this one very much. The kiss is sweet and tentative a first step to that perfect evening in Waterdeep (unless you feel especially bossy and deny Gale the chance to wow you a bit) which, I feel, serves as the heart of the whole scene and offers a much better payoff to the budding romance than any kiss ever could.
Also I wonder for which if any of the romances the statement made in the quote applies at all? Shadowheart maybe, Wyll perhaps and Karlach? The first kiss in Astarion's case is a fake that is more funny than anything, while the payoff, the quote mentions, to me would be holding his hand in act 2 (or the hug).
Look, I'll just give you a link to Neil Newbon's stream and you'll see what I'm talking about ))
Literally. This is an emergency way out of an uncomfortable dialogue )) It seems to me that this is not very correct, it could have been done differently.
Yes, I did understand that you can use the option because you are just fooling around or have deliberate malicious intent. It can also be a way for a character with good intentions, genuine interest but muddled feelings to avoid being dishonest. It feels like a very natural thing to do in this situation. For example I had the scene with Astarion-Origin, so it was nice not having to drop the l-word or to talk about feelings too much. Feelings are hard after all.
I guess, I am simply not the "most people" the quote talks about, because I am quite glad that there isn't such a huge focus on that kiss and the scene is mainly carried through it's awesome dialogue and it's very scenic nature - though technically you can argue that the first kiss can be the one you imagine during the Weave lesson in act 1 too.
Anyway, basically I am glad that not all the romances follow a standard pattern because this means there is something for everyone. (Or for most people, I guess, that one thread in general reads like there are some players who rather wouldn't have any romance at all.)
Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about. It’s great when in a dialogue (in a very personal dialogue) there is an option not to reveal your feelings, but! If you are not sincere or have no feelings, why respond with a kiss? Just for fun? Especially at the very beginning of a relationship.
I think this is completely unfair to Gale, and not to the player. Because the player responds with deception to Gale's sincerity. And the game encourages this. It would be great if the game made us treat our companions more responsibly.
It seems to me that this “first kiss” would have been very important for Gale, and I don’t understand why it wasn’t made into a separate scene. Before that night under the stars.
Because it's a roleplaying game and you can play a murder hobo or an ass, if you like. I don't mind that there are options for being a horrible person, I do mind if I am forced to be a horrible person (like with the old brothel dialogue for Gale, which just offered no good way out). For characters who are sincere but think that feelings are oh so hard to put into words, it is nice there is a second chance for a declaration of love at a later stage though.
In the greater context, there is also the idea that your character might feel the need to go along with the romance because it keeps Gale from having suicidal thoughts - the morning after dialogue acknowledges this option too. Many of these ideas are probably not the most romantic and I agree with you that the whole night (not just the kiss) is very important to Gale, but - for me at least - one of the great strengths of Gale's quest that it works really well as a narrative which allows the player to portray a wide range of characters and positions towards Gale and his situation. So being given the option to be open and honest or take a none verbal approach seems like good story telling. I think it's not a separate scene either because Gale himself needed his declaration to be special and he doesn't even think that creating a magical meadow for you is special enough - it is much more than just a romantic night, it tells you about his flaws as well as his hopes and needs.
It is noticeable though that while you can be extremely cruel or at least very rude to all the male companions and even to Lae'zel, you can hardly even be moderately impolite towards Shart or Karlach. Not that I wish to, but if you compare what you can fling into the direction of the guys and Bae'zel to the dialogue for the two girls, there is a stark difference. When Karlach wakes you up in the middle of the night to tell you that she has the hots for you, there isn't even an option to be someone who is grumpy because they were just woken up for something that could have waited til morning. Which I would consider a very viable reaction in this situation.
This double standard is, what puzzles me and makes me wonder why. Unfortunately I only have very cynical answers to this question and I'd rather not go down that route.
I completely agree with what you are saying. But there are two things that are left out.
1. Content distribution. The relationship with Gale as a partner begins at the end (!) of the second act. This is much further than the middle of the game. While the romances of many characters develop from the middle of the first act. And during all this time, he actually only speaks about his interest twice (!). This takes place at the tiefling party and the dialogue with the "book" (second act). The rest of the time nothing happens to develop the relationship.
2. The illogicality of what is happening. Gale, who is very traditional, as he himself says, “If I had time, I would do everything differently.” During the entire second act he said the only phrase “have you read the book” and.. that’s all! This is not normal for a person who is never shy about saying what he thinks. //Please don't say that he is embarrassed :)// It is logical that after deactivating the sphere his hands were freed. But he doesn't do anything anymore! In any case, he would have tried to somehow develop a relationship with his object of interest. But instead of courtship, we end up straight in bed. Seriously? He had time to do something before this. (But apparently the developers didn’t have time) And that’s why I say that they could have done at least the first kiss scene. Even just extending the scene with the “book”. It would not have interfered with the scene under the stars; on the contrary, it would have been more logical. But there is simply nothing of this.
About "cynical answers". Yes, I’ll probably also remain silent.
Your point one puzzled me a little, but I guess it depends on how you play the game. Gale's "Last Night alive" is triggered by entering Moonrise for the first time, so if you go there last, I guess it starts pretty late. If you go there directly as the plot advices you to, it's one of the first romances you can get confirmed - especially if you only visit the Mountain Pass after Lae'zel really bullies you into it.
So from my perspective: I slaughtered things in the Shadowcurse and got the book scene, headed over to Moonrise, got the "Last Night alive" during the next long rest and then did Lae'zel the favour to finally look for the Crčche and to enjoy kisses in the morning sun.
Not that I would say no to more camp scenes, but the timing hast never felt weird to me, because the tiefling party, battle-thrills moment and the night under the stars all happen shortly after one another. The time between the magic lesson and the tiefling party being arguably the longest.
How interesting! We actually play the game completely differently. After the tiefling party, I go to the Underdark, then Grimforge -> Mountain Pass -> Rosimorn Abbey (for the blood of Lathander). Then I return to Grimforge, and through it I go to the Dark Lands. Considering that I try not to miss content, it's quite a long way to get to the Moon Towers.
And the “Last Night Alive” scene starts most often after completing the content of “Last Light Inn”, Shar dungeons, and completing the first battle in the Moon Towers. Before the release of Song of the Night. And this is really the end of the second act
But I'll try to change the route this time, maybe something will go differently
Gah, the forum didn't allow me to reply to anything in a while. I just wanted to say that I also think this is super interesting, it's probably really hard to pace camp scenes or a romance arc, when the way how different players approach elements of the game can differ so greatly.
And finally: Thank you for the nice conversation, I greatly enjoyed it. =)
Finishing up another playthrough romancing Shadowheart and I had to come back here more than a year later cuz I JUST GOT THE NEW "I LOVE YOU" DIALOGUE OPTION!!!! IDK if someone at Larian saw this thread in particular or just coincidentally had the same idea, but either way, THANK YOUUUU!!!! It was a really nice moment and I really appreciate you guys adding it to the game and all the other little additions you've made over the last year to further improve all our experiences! Yet another reason why BG3 is one of my favorite games of all time!!
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