In the quotes I've provided, the names of authors who are mentioned in this and other articles have been replaced with the neutral "Author" so as not to violate forum rules or criticize personalities.
Author writes:
“I feel with the bad ending, it’s very much exactly that one sentence he says to you when you read his mind. “He will always see you as degrading yourself if you continue to be with him… but that’s perhaps what you like.” It’s ultimately reducing your relationship with him back to being a kink/form of gratification. Which is a fine thing to enjoy as a fantasy, but it’s very much admitting that you failed to think of him beyond a sex object, and care about more than that. You’re so attracted to him, you’d also turn yourself into one.
I think it’s perfectly nice to fantasise about that, hell, I wrote the incubus scene where you can essentially make an irreversible sex-pact, and I think that’s sexy. But it isn’t something that I think is a lesson for real life. And I wanted the bad ending to really make you feel ‘I failed to see this video game character beyond my own fantasies. The game was more real than I ever expected it to be.”
Surely many of you know this story. I'm not claiming that it has anything to do with the current sadistic content we have in the game today (I have no factual basis for such claims). But everything in this world has its origins and its backstory (at least that's how it works in the real world). So I would like to remember together with you and try to analyze that, the first "moral lesson" that they decided to teach us back then.
Author writes: “I feel with the bad ending, it’s very much exactly that one sentence he says to you when you read his mind. “He will always see you as degrading yourself if you continue to be with him… but that’s perhaps what you like.” It’s ultimately reducing your relationship with him back to being a kink/form of gratification.” And I also had no way of knowing, going through this scene for the first time, "Why?" Where do these rails come from? Why doesn't Tav have a single line, a single possible reaction to this reading of Astarion's thoughts? Knees - for sure.
No, I like this scene, after all, I conceptualized it as an act of caring and understanding, as an opportunity to elevate Astarion, to give him that pleasure of domination, as an opportunity to "give him everything" (because it wasn't such an easy step for me at first). But Tav can't in any way, shape or form make Astarion know that Tav doesn't "enjoy humiliating themselves," that Tav is only doing it for Astarion. It is impossible to open Astarion's consciousness, as in the second act, to show Astarion how Tav sees him, how beautiful he really is (not only outwardly), that Tav cannot humiliate themselves by staying with him, because he is the best for Tav in this world. In the second act - please, with other companions in various quests - please. Of the lines, only a meaningless, "No," which leads to either the same knees or the breakup of the romance. Ahh, I see, it's to reduce our relationship with him to a kinky one. And "it's very much admitting that you failed to think of him beyond a sex object, and care about more than that." What, how these plot rails can resemble that kind of admission, I'm not a screenwriter, I don't get it, if someone can explain it to me, I'd be sincerely grateful. What it does look a lot like, though, is the equally "railroaded" and poorly scripted (oh, I'm not criticizing anyone, this has long been a common opinion) dialogue scene after the Ascension.
It is in this scene that we are forced to sexually objectify Astarion, and in a rather ridiculous way - by the lack of an alternative. You say, "I want your body." Because all the other lines suck. Maybe some of the "evil" players were only helping Astarion to become a vampire themselves - they'll have an easier time in this scene than the rest of us (but you'll still only think of him as a sexual object, mind you!). A line for a "teacher" with the IQ of a first grader - okay, I give up, I'm a nymphomaniac, better that than this... We pick a "body", say out loud something different, our own, appropriate for the roleplay. We just skip this scene, realizing that yes, it's some weird "railroading" selection of lines, but that's okay, there's no perfection in the world, let's play on.
I'm very grateful to the author that at least their "incubus scene" isn't so ultimative, and that it's an "irreversible sex-pact" I can learn from someone else's video and just get an interesting fight with an unusual brash boss in my game. But the fact that this "entertainment" that objectively just ranks alongside Mizora, brothels and other passable sex content has something to do with a serious and deep romance with Astarion...
[video:youtube][/video]
And of course, the cherry on the cake is the beloved MAKE YOU, the magic grail of the cult of the unascended Astarion!
What can you make a player feel with a scenario of this quality? "I failed to see a good RPG in the third act. It's beyond my understanding of classic RPG games (after patch 6, I think all Ascended Astarion fans can say that). The game was much more railroaded, cardboard and... nasty than I ever expected a game of the year to be."
Well, and of course, "lessons for real life" for adults in an adult game. Which fit wonderfully and very realistically into the overall story and character of Astarion, without breaking the picture at all, so easily and effortlessly...
And on the topic of Astarion's sexual objectification - I can't help but think of one of the hardest videos for me (thanks to youtubers - game testers, I would never have been able to pull that off, purely psychologically, even for a "test") - the scene where Tav drags the unascended Astarion to the brothel with Halsin. I, a "sexual objectifier" and pervert, can't watch that without my fists clenched in anger and a lump in my throat. But it's normal. It's a "healthy relationship." The "teacher" won't give you a low behavior grade for playing like this, enjoy it.
And, of course, a few interesting logical riddles for the players - where the theme of sex is somehow traced during the ritual, why you can help Astarion without even having a romance with him, why you can refuse sex and agree only to become a spawn (the romance is preserved)? And of course, why, even if you leave Astarion a spawn, do you still get "rewarded" with sex? Yes, you won't have a nice cutscene, but in fact, the sex itself between Astarion and Tav will still happen. So the author means that we help Astarion ascended for the sake of watching a cutscene (which is also constantly being cut https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=920385&nt=5&page=1)? The riddle of the sphinx. It's almost impossible to understand for the average player who is not versed in the intricacies of screenwriting.
By the way, does this remind you of anyone, by any chance?
«Adventure through virtual worlds alongside a delusional gamer, an actual emo vampire (who really wishes he wasn’t an emo vampire), a poet from outer space, and a dashing princess in shining armor, among others!»
«Date the Ultimate Video Game Fanservice Vampire»
I don't want to imply anything, I think you can draw your own conclusions.
In the description of the endings, the Author writes:
“But only in the true ending of the game did the player, through being the first person to treat Len like a real person, and not an oversexualised video game sex object, make him realise humanity can be better than he’s ever seen it be, and video games can be a meaningful way to figure things out about yourself.”
Let's take a look at a few more articles published on gaming portals, in which Larian authors reveal to us their vision of romance in the game.
"Author: What is new to us is that we have situations set up as ‘Oh, Shadowheart has gone down a dark path, and now has a really toxic attitude towards intimacy. I actively want to break up with her. And that break up feels good. That break up feels like cathartic character development, rather than a failure.’ Key to showing intimacy is also showing its human failures."
I don't know about Shadowheart, that's for her fans to decide, I'm interested in the trend itself: a "really toxic attitude towards intimacy", and you're supposed to actively want to break up, and... Experience it as "cathartic character development, rather than a failure"! Hmmm... None of us felt Astarion's "toxic attitude", wanted to break up, and...
No, guys, this is a failure. I'm sorry. And the fact that we have to trash the game we gave so many hours of our lives to is not good. I'm not even talking about how "good" it is for the people traumatized by your game.
Ibid:
"Like in previous Larian games, your love interests can be romanced regardless of player identity. Was there a reason for that, and do you feel this freedom helps draw more people to Baldur’s Gate 3’s characters?
Author: The answer is basically embedded in the question – freedom. If in doubt, we default to whatever respects the player’s sense of freedom, agency, sense of roleplay, and fun. We wanted players to be able to engage with these characters, and bond with them how they see fit."
Where is this freedom? Maybe I should buy glasses, I can't see straight? How does this fit with one of Larian's authors' statements about "lessons", with on-rails dialog, and how does it fit with what we're seeing in the game now?
"Author: I hope our game offers others that same feeling for our players of being seen and loved for exactly who they are."
Loved us. Thank you. Just the way we are. Happy Valentine's Day, friends!
"Author: I was hired to be a narrative designer in part because I was writing BG fanfiction when Early Access came out."
“People sometimes say, ‘Oh this game is really horny, because you can start a relationship with the characters straight away. Or you can even spend the night with them straightaway,’” Author says, “We were interested in exploring what it looks like if you can start a relationship with a character toward the beginning of the game, and then see it progress and evolve. We’re asking, how can I stay with this person as they grow and things become different between the two of us?”
The author seems to be quite interested in the topic of relationship breakup in the game ("how can I stay with this person"). Perhaps for someone else it can be an interesting game experience too. If it happens without the use of violence and "authorial arbitrariness". After all, when people play with immersion in the game world, when they give themselves to it emotionally, why should this world collapse?
“Author says it was a challenging decision to show Astarion in early access as a character who is “very light-hearted, very attractive, very playful” for two years, only to reveal when the full game came out that he had a history of sexual trauma and needed to take a step back from having sex with the player. “That was definitely an example of, we’re trying to go closer to the bone and hopefully meaningfully explore something that is quite close to a lot of people’s real-world experiences.”
It doesn't fit with the trauma story and "take a step back from having sex with the player". That's probably where Astarion's changed facial expression when he proposes sex in the first act (suffering face) comes from. Read more about Astarion's altered facial expression: https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=934229#Post934229
“People often write fanfiction that is deeply about conflict, about angst, about actual challenges that are being overcome in a relationship,” Author says. “There are quite a lot of really heartbreaking break-up scenes that happen in Baldur’s Gate 3. That’s the thing that people don’t necessarily consider being an important part of romance.”
"Breaking up is part of romance" sounds about as beautiful as "death is part of life". In terms of philosophy and kitchen talk - curious, certainly. But in fact, the ending, the devastating finale is exactly that, an ending, how can something after which that story doesn't exist be "part of the story"? I'm among those players who don't want a ruined story in the middle of the game. I wonder how many people who play RPGs in general see breakups as an important part of romance?
After patch 6, the need to part with the game, unfortunately, became virtually inevitable. I tried to conduct an experiment on myself and overcome my injuries on the principle "what does not kill, makes stronger", and at the same time put myself in the place of a player who had not managed to pass the game to the end by this point. Three days with a "changed Astarion" closer to the finale, not submitting to the author's idea of breakups and continuing to kiss him just like I did normally. The only difference from Andersen's Little Mermaid, where every step is a pain, was that this mermaid could get a little revenge on everyone around her, and BG3's battle system is the one thing I still continued to like. The internal emotional barriers that previously prevented you from gratuitously doing evil and mayhem in the game world (the world seemed alive at first) melted away, and the only thing that gave any pleasure in the story was the finale with the control of the Elder Brain. The depressed state and trouble sleeping in reality are minor side effects of the experiment. The human psyche perceives such a game as real stress. The game purposely harms your health. Do not repeat it at home. To obey the "author's idea" and break off relations with Astarion after Ascension I did not - such an experiment implies too long period of depressive game. I don't get paid for this. And even if I were, I would probably prefer to earn my living in some other, more pleasant way.
“It used to be set up so that the only way that romances could begin was this one night in the party, where you could only pick one character,” Author says, “And then basically, that character would end up being your love interest for the whole rest of the game.”
This locked fans into dating the same character simply due to a few choices made toward the start of the game. As a fan before coming to work at Larian, though, Author wished players could experience love triangles and multiple partners.
So Larian tweaked the system to let players romance some characters at the party while wooing others out in the world. It also adds drama, like characters gossiping about your romances behind your back.”
This is where I got a monogamous pervert's tear... It could have been in the game that instead of all this "joy", there would have been good romances with one companion! And those romances would have been better, because resources would have been spent on deepening your personal story, rather than this realization of "unusual creative intent". And yes, there are no lines for loyal Tavs at all. Not for the companions, nor for Astarion himself. But this slight lack of realism, epitomized by the inability to announce their relationship in the first/second chapters, the inability to adequately announce it to harassers like Halsin and Mizora, this slight disregard for an audience of perverts who sexually objectify their only lover and can't imagine their Tav sleeping with two men at the same time or in parallel, is basically nothing. Until the neglect turns into concrete violence against those who are so amoral that they won't play along with the advanced views of romance held by the lead designer for the companion character and romance quests.
“That extends even to one of the strangest corners of Baldur’s Gate 3 fandom — sex speedruns. The term refers to speedruns where players compete to see who can reach a sex scene fastest, typically with Lae’zel, the game’s most up-for-it companion.
“They're deconstructing the idea of the way romance is presented in the game by abstracting it into something ridiculous,” Author says. “I welcome that. It makes those scenes seem even more ridiculous and that’s just grand to me.”
Abstracting it into something ridiculous. It is. I can't argue with that. Wise teacher, cura te ipsum.
"With how much care Author and Author put into making BG3’s characters feel like real people, it might seem strange that they’re so happy to see players strip the nuance from them in that way. But as they see it, that just means they’ve done a good job of making characters that players feel connected to."
“They're not our characters anymore,” Author says. “They belong to the players. So we're thrilled to see what they do with them. We’re proud of you.”
Oh, I'm sorry, you meant sexy speedrunners.
"The character shows the value of violence and the dark side of humanity, as well as his extraordinary charm and appeal. This balance is extremely important, as a shift to one side or the other would have made Astarion extremely unattractive or too one-dimensional and empty a character. "
And these words belong to a real writer already - Stephen Rooney. His full interview:
Also in this interview, Stephen says that he wants both avenues to be explored and also states that fans should be happy with the ending. Stephen says that he doesn't do any ending to alienate fans because that's just bad for fans. It turns out that the ending of Ascension, which is being changed for Astarion now, is not what the true author originally intended.
The very process of Tav turning into a vampire was pitched and animated as a "bride ritual".
Astarion bites Tav three times and then gives her a drop of his blood. Blood is not needed to turn a spawn, all the vampire has to do is bury the future spawn (they will then have to dig themselves up). Tav also does not experience the torment of conversion that Astarion once experienced, which is completely consistent with the bride's ritual. The bride is not controlled by her creator, and Astarion never once in the entire game attempts to control Tav, whatever Tav does in doing so. That said, the vampire and his bride have a special telepathic connection, they can sense each other's emotions. The bride can also influence her lover. One can notice how Tav somewhat "softens" Astarion, for example, in the epilogue, after Tav's offer to travel together and see the world, Astarion forgets his global takeover plans for Baldur and happily agrees, wanting to "have all the pleasures" that this world has to offer. This was a truly wonderful, perfectly fitting interpretation of the Ascended Astarion romance that fit the story perfectly. Please bring back its depth, beauty, and tenderness to our romance!
I don't know if there's any point in reaching out to the writing team - the previous team is working on a new "about space" project and has nothing to do with Baldur's world turning into hell for Astarion fans. But maybe someone in the marketing department reads Suggestions and Feedback?
Dear Larian marketers! The audience of Ascended Astarion is quite a large number of people. A rough estimate is 30% of those who have an affair with Astarion, there are about 10 million people playing BG3, how many of them have an affair with Astarion - you probably have all these numbers. These are the people who have already paid money for the game, these are your future customers, or these are the people who will never buy your studio's games again. It's up to you to decide. A writer who inflicts sadistic "punishments" on players for "unlearned moral lessons," fights "sexual objectification of character" while agitating for promiscuous sexual activity is not a writer, it's an activist. An activist who uses the game to promote his ideas to the detriment of the players. The author's motives are contrary to the commercial business model of a digital product such as an RPG game. Larian now has the most toxic gaming community in the entire gaming industry (if not in the entire history of the gaming industry). Does this really benefit the company? Perhaps an activist writer could work fine on other romance lines that fit their views. But Astarion's romance line definitely needs another person. Your fans deserve human treatment, not "moral lessons", trauma and bullying.
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