Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion

That thread got locked for several reasons. I didn't comment in it, because I had my own reservations about it, and I don't care about that author's opinion either. I only care to have a nice game and a good, satisfying romance, without OOC impositions on my character.

Memes are also a type of feedback, more humorous and visual in nature. Pictures are often better at conveying the message than words. The fact that we actually had to resort to memes speaks volumes about how ridiculous this change is.

Astarion throughout the game has been protective of Tav, I posted a short showcasing his lines in a different thread. Tav gets his protection while they become his spawn, he also says that when meeting Araj "don't worry, I'll protect you". Him abusing Tav is as just as much him going back on his word as Tav wanting to leave him. Their relationship being both romantic and contractual worked perfectly fine until patch 6.

Sexual violence towards the player? The player? Seriously...

Franky, I don't think it's a romance at all, it's a tragedy donned in the guise of a romance - same as with God-Gale. If you love them, you help them overcome their insecurities; if you yourself thirst for power you feed into their fears and transform them into something else which wipes away their fears and insecurities because it destroys their "humanity". To me the Ascended route has always been deeply unsettling and abusive, which is why I have stepped away from it and which I have tried to explain in the above - because I do play the game and enjoy interpreting it as a piece of media and I do appreciate Ascended Astarion as a character.

And again, I never said I was ok with the new animations, which to my understanding is the main cause for uproar in all these threads.

Anska, in this one sentence was a typo, it's already changed.


No, don't worry, I believe you. You have already said you like abusive behaviour


I believe you.

Wait, where's that quote from? I can't recall using the word refreshing here, idk, maybe it's from an old post?
Also, to clarify, I don't /like/ abusive behavior. The tone, again, feels pointed, my bad if it's not but it truly feels like you're implying something about me right now. I like interesting stories, and I think this story is interesting, simple as. I abhor real life abuse as much as the next person.

Don't you worry. It's a roleplay game and everyone is free to enjoy what they like, whether it is murder or what else. I didn't judge you, I said, I believe you. If there was a misunderstanding, I am sorry.

But take also into consideration that the majority don't like the OOC abusive behaviours (in fact, it's more Tav being shown in a sexual violence context) in these kisses, and people are trying to express their concerns about it. Thank you.

You describe my own view on the A!A path pretty well and I guess that is why I am so disappointed by the implemented kisses. As you said, the story is meant to show the beginning of a possible slippery slope, something that has a big chance to happen a few decades or centuries down the line. It was written wonderfully like that and depending on your dialogue choices you got to see it more clearly or could ignore it in the shoes of your character. I can not understand how people (not you) can defend the kisses and say "yeah, this is what the story is supposed to be" when the story was already there the whole time but in a more elegant and subtler way.

As in any good rpg the game gave you the chance to roleplay a character that either regret their choice to become his spawn or be happy with it. But with the new kisses this has been taken away. To reduce Astarion's story of the cycle of abuse to this "black and white portrayal of abuse" as you called it is very sad. The kisses just don't fit the flow of the narrative imo and I hope they take another look at them.

This is your interpretation and seeing things as traditionally good and bad. Some people see it differently. Personally, I find God Gale romance ending very beautiful. I even liked it more than the AA ending. To me it was transcending ordinary human life and its limitations, pushing the bounds and becoming something more and being in control of your own destiny, not having to worship gods and worrying about becoming part of the Wall. Just because something is different than a typical human thing doesn't make it bad.

Frankly, I dislike the messages in all the romances that apparently helping your man become more powerful and living with a strong, confident male who will protect you if need be is a failure. It's for all the characters who have this type of route: Astarion, Gale and Wyll. What they're telling us is that being ambitious, wanting more from life and not settling in for boring and modest things is wrong. LOL

We don't need to change Astarione, we need to regain control over Tav, his facial expression does not match his line of behavior before, his face only suggests disagreement, this is wrong, Tav was forced to feel fear during the kiss that he himself asks for. This defies any explanation.
If, after all, someone likes this expression Tav, okay, everyone is different, but then a choice should be given as to what led to this behavior.
Agree

I don't see it as "good" opposed to evil, I see it as humanist. There is value in the mortal coil and an exceptional wizard and an exceptional vampire spawn can achieve much if they put their mind to it. It's not about "power bad" it is about trusting in yourself, in your own immense talents and the mighty company you keep.

I said "bad", not "evil". AA romance is specfically about immense trust in one another and achieving shared goals together, or just enjoying life with each other without having to worry about limiting factors.

Well said, Ametris.

Good bad, good evil. It doesn't matter, I don't think of it in binaries. Also with Ascended Astarion, it is not about trust in one another, it is about one sided trust. The PC has to trust him, Astarion has control, when you have control, trust is no longer needed. Basically, all theses threads ARE about him violating your/ your PC's trust.

But I shall leave you to it, because while I do understand your (all of you how share one solid megalith of an opinion) point of view, I simply disagree. And that is where all discussion becomes futile.

And is such a shame, this thread had generated such an interesting discussion before it reverted back to repeating the same point of blaming and shaming everyone who does not subscribe to one very specific interpretation of Astarion.

Astarion doesn't fully trust Tav until he sees they fully trust him. He says in banter that he needed someone he could trust. Cazador had control over him but there was no trust involved. If there is no trust between them, he'd always worry Tav might plot against him like he did against his own master.

Again, this is a feedback thread, not a discussion thread, but what I see is people trying to turn these threads into something else than they are.

There already is an AA discussion thread that you even commented in.

To me, the whole point of RP is that you make your character, and their story, your own, though obviously, there are going to be some constraints in a game like BG3 compared to a table top role playing game.
The writers control the NPCs stories, dialogue and actions but they should try and avoid controlling the player character's reactions and dialogue, too. Something I think they have managed to achieve for most of the game.
(By controlling dialogue I mean creating options that are very limited. eg. Offering only positive responses to something a NPC says.)

The A.A. kisses from Patch 6 where Tav looks traumatised are a glaring example of removing player agency.
In creative writing courses, aspiring writers are often urged to ‘show don’t tell’ and I suspect this might have been the aim of giving Tav such traumatised expressions. This would fit a narrative of A.A. continuing the cycle of abuse and Tav realising they have made a bad decision in allowing him to ascend.
Players who feel that is how their Tav would react, will probably have no issues with them because Tav's reactions fit their personal head-cannon.
Players who are happy to pursue a Dark Romance with A.A. and who don't feel regret about the ritual understandably feel railroaded.
And, as other people have pointed out, the kisses with Tav reacting as they do are inconsistent with the rest of A.A.’s dialogue and actions in the game. After the ritual we see a more confident Astarion whose personality is definitely more controlling, but he still appears to care deeply for Tav and shows no sign of wishing to hurt them while they remain in the relationship.

As to the argument that the player should see ascending Astarion as a bad choice and Tav's expressions help push this narrative, even if that was the intention, I don’t think something marketed as entertainment should try to teach real life lessons or moralise. Allowing players to freely explore the moral issues raised by the story without pushing them to a particular conclusion makes for a far richer and more enjoyable experience.

Stories in games like BG3 are collaborative ventures between the storytellers and the players and I think the relationship is healthiest when both parties treat the other with respect.
It is important that the writers feel free to write the story they want to write, but it is equally important they allow each player to respond to that story in a way that feels right to them and that they don’t try and railroad the player or remove their agency.

Very well said, I agree. My thoughts are the same.

The golden rule of writing: Thou shall not preach.

It's really disheartening to have to create feedback threads for players to tell the gaming company, "Hey, we don't want to RP being abused," just because we choose a more power-centered RP character.

It's just in really bad taste imo. And extra disheartening that we don't seem to be heard, and instead get told that it's basically deserved because of the narrative we tried to build in an *RPG* game.

It's fantasy. There are dragons and vampires and giant brains. But the writers draw the line at an Evil character being caring toward the PC for the sake of realism? To teach us a lesson? The game is supposed to be a sandbox, not a soapbox.

Please don't force players who want to play AA into roleplaying abuse. I'm so tired.

I hope this is the right place to voice support, because Astarion has like 50 threads on the forum so I'm not even sure which one is right anymore

Even though I'm not someone who romances Astarion (yet), I am someone who absolutely dislikes BG3's comically emotional facial expressions being forced upon characters and ruining moments by breaking character roleplay immersion, because it chooses our character's personality for us and thus makes it impossible for the player to properly roleplay their own character in a game which is all about roleplay.

• Try to roleplay a badass character and in the next scene she has the most comically terrified expression imaginable.
• Try to roleplay a kind character and in the next scene she has the most comically sinister smile ever from Austin Power's Doctor Evil.
• Try to roleplay a sinister character and in the next scene she has the most compassionately caring expression of a saint.

So even if I personally was romancing Ascended Astarion, I would hate seeing my Dark Urge portrayed as a terrified wimp while kissing their love interest, despite being Astarion's vampire bride. Because if I choose to be Astarion's vampire bride, I choose to do so because I want to share in the madness, I want to be crazy together with him, I want to be everything he needs me to be.

I'd want to be the Bonnie to his Clyde, I'd want to be the Harley Quinn to his Joker. A dynamic duo of equally passionate crazy lovers who enjoy their madness, despite one clearly being the Alpha. Even if my character is not the Alpha, it's a fascinating idea to roleplay and immerse oneself into.

Therefore I sympathize with everyone here who hate the terrified facial animations during that particular Astarion kiss and hopefully Larian realizes the mistake and corrects it. I don't even romance him, yet even I hate it.

That's what I think too. Before, you could interpret his story in many ways but now you can't (well you can if you ignore the kissing option). This change was shocking for me because it seems strange that Astarion treats his romantic partner and his most precious possession so bad in those kisses, before patch their kiss was kind but after 6 months they have made three new kissing animations in which your character is shown as a scared victim. Bad taste for me, especially if you think kisses are an optional dialogue option for romance which you are supposed to want to press and enjoy. Some people may like the new changes because fits their story but for some people this doesn't work and it's disappointing.

I respect the changes for Astarion because I understand that they want to define more his personality as a vampire lord showing his controling and posessive side, but it's also necessary for the player to have more options to react to this situation. They have omitted that perhaps you want to be with him and share eternity being a couple of villains in the city, and that option should be valid too.

Well put Crimsomrider !! (Gold star awarded)

Opinion :

though I repeat myself throughout the threads regarding AA the facial animations absolutely break our personal adventure I'm not that keen on AA but wanted to do it at least once to see the cutscenes and my Dark Urge is as evil as they could be the whole meme sentence

Good Players want to fix him the Evil players want to make him worse.

however I put a lot of hours into my Dark Urge playthrough doing awful things and then I get hit with the abused player character face in the latest patch I can bearly bring myself to complete that game.

I am a serial Astarion dater and 10/12 characters prefer him , poor Gale he's still not got lucky with one of my Tavs yet
at no point did I think we would be hit in the face with an abuse shovel all his lines do not seem to represent how he was originally written through Acts 1-2 . yes he turns into more of a douche he's power hungry and possessive but not abusive to Tav. "you are mine " "you are my consort" "Lovers forever"

people seem to hook on that wisdom check he sees you as degrading yourself being with him maybe you like it.
now I read this as he feels so bad about himself and doesn't know what Tav feels we never really get to reassure him that is not what we want, they want him to be happy and free this degrading thing is his thought process I would expect if you were in his position you'd feel dirty and useless after 200 years of enslavement (act 2) you'd think anyone showing you love would be degrading themselves.
they want to put it in he becomes the next Cazador he'll abuse you but it appears to be not the case you seem to be a vampire bride he feeds you his blood Cazador does not feed Astarion. Astarion talks about tasting his blood on Tav's lips.

He Talks about travelling the world and seeing/doing things to start his dark empire with Tav at his side.
why if he's so concerned with looks all his ingame persona would he believe dragging a poor abused pet with him would help him in anyway.

Of course when he's bored of you it may very well end up like Cazador but I doubt he'd switch within a week.

Can I ask folk to be very careful that they’re not suggesting that people who don’t share their take are condoning or enjoy sexual violence? I hope it’s clear how upsetting such an accusation can be. I’m not going to pick on individuals here, but my attention has been drawn to some posts that concern me.

I understand that some people here feel very strongly and personally about the AA path, and are entitled to express how it impacts them within forum rules, but we all need to accept that others are entitled to have and express different interpretations.

Thanks, all, for your support keeping discussions friendly, constructive and tolerant.