Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion

Again I find myself agreeing with @Anska and don't believe that they were treated well in the conversation.



You are ignoring the theme of the romance and, to be frank, I think only reading those words on a surface level. Whatever the metaphysical value of those statements, EVEN IF it were the case that Faerun would be improved were to be transformed into a setting like PoE or DoS where the gods were hinderances to human progress, EVEN IF it were the case that good and evil are bad ways to interpret stories in a setting like Faerun, EVEN IF it were the case that stories that 'preach' are bad stories

none of that applies to the Gale ascension.

(and while it's a tangent all of those EVEN IF's are false)

A psychologist once came with a personality theory posed that people have Cardinal Traits. One core trait that rules over other traits and influences the expressions of personality traits. In 5e terms a cardinal trait is either a bond or a flaw.

Gale's cardinal trait, his fatal flaw, is hubris. Hubris controls him and blinds him. If you ascend Gale you are telling him "lean into your flaw and allow it consume all of your other traits." "Don't be awkward, don't be kind, don't be self doubting be ambitious instead" Gale dies when the god of ambition is born. I mean ascended Gale is mean to his cat! He has lost himself to his ambition.


I mean it's fine to dislike this part of the romances but they exist. The new cinematics just underline those themes and make them clearer to the reader.

You are partially right in that you are describing traits that are traditionally gendered as masculine but this also applies to Shadowheart. If you want to see some horrified facial expressions go to youtube and take a look at the Selunite lover / Dark Justiciar "romance". Ascended Shadowheart is so very EVOL and really loves torturing her lover and reminding Tav that this was all Tav's doing. Tav encouraged Shadowheart to pursue the path of power and this is the result.

Shadowheart's Selunite lover is an abused pet, something to be threatened, teased and tortured. And ultimately corrupted. It makes the AA "romance" seem like gumdrops and rainbows.

Shadowheart's fatal flaw, her cardinal trait, is faith. She believes - against all evidence - that her goddess loves her and is worthy of her devotion. Tav can encourage that or lead her away from that.

Astarian's cardinal trait is fear. He remains with Tav - even an abusive Tav - out of fear. That goes away once the ritual is complete. Astarian is no longer Astarian, you have toppled the pillar of his personality.


In his second of third line after completing the ritual he tells you that everything has changed. That's what rituals do. You started the ritual as a boy, you end it as man. Before the ceremony you were betrothed, after the ritual you are married.

And this isn't a quinceanera, it a ritual so evil, so vile that it's never been performed. It seals a contract with an arch devil. Even Raphael seem offended by its excess.


And part of the respect a reader should give to an author is read their words and interpret them in good faith. There was so, so much foreshadowing of this outcome. I'm surprised that people are not quoting the words of the romance more often.

To my mind changing the romances so that every possible choice is rewarded with a good outcome cheapens the experience. Then no choice is meaningful. "Do whatever you like, it will all turn out for the best" feels . . . saccharine?

No one is arguing that AA isn't evil. The ritual did change him. He is still Astarion though, with his worst traits amplified and his best traits either gone or buried so deep they may as well be gone. This means he could be even more fearful as AA, which makes him less trusting and even thirsting more for power.

However you want to describe Ascended Astarion, it doesn't change the fact that it is possible to have a relatively friction-free experience romancing him. If you don't argue with him, and if you're on the same page as him when it comes to gaining power and being enthusiastic about killing, he is quite enjoyable. It's not healthy that you have to "behave" with Astarion for him to be nice... but there's nothing healthy about AA. We know there's problems. I think having the ability to control AA's mood actually gives spawn Tav some control over him, but that's a different discussion.

The fact still remains that there was no overt abuse from Astarion if you didn't argue with him. He becomes abusive when provoked, whether the provocation was justified or not. The patch 6 AA kisses are unprovoked abuse which is new from AA. Especially considering the tadpole allows spawn Tav to resist any control AA has over spawn Tav. Spawn Tav could kill him before the Netherbrain dies if he lays out his abusive cards so early. Astarion isn't that careless with his life.

I have a feeling that people don’t understand what we’re talking about, or don’t want to understand. It has been said so many times why the facial animation is not satisfactory, but they continue to convince us that this is how it should be, because ritual changed Astarion. I understand why you can perceive this situation this way, everyone has a different opinion, this is normal, but try to understand us too.
There is a line of the romance without insults, without disputes, there is complete acceptance of oneself in the role of spawn consort and Astarion lord, there is not even a hint of control, because Tav himself goes for it and gives himself everything. And in this situation, new kisses do not fit this path. It’s not about Astarion, everything is fine with him, the whole problem is Tav.

I only spoke of the ending I saw on YT, I didn't romance him myself (other than flirting with him in act 1), so yes, this is a perspective of someone who didn't go deep into that story. Maybe I would change my mind if he was my LI or maybe I would still see it this way, because it would fit my chara. It might be going against his theme, but it's not something I feel like discussing in Astarion's feedback thread. I liked God Gale as a friend in my game.


Them giving you the same type of story with every male character (where it's possible) just reeks of agenda and preachiness. I don't feel like I can play the game the way I want, because the game and now other players apparently are judging me for it.


I'll pass, thanks.

I think starting with changing Tav's expression is a good start. I mean kisses are pretty sexy but the expression on your own face kinda jars you out of any enjoyment you can try to glean from it. I'm just hoping overt abuse isn't something that's in store for future AA content. The issue still remains that with the tadpole in place, AA cannot control spawn Tav, and it's dangerous for him to make spawn Tav an enemy via abuse. So plz no stuff that doesn't make sense.

This is the biggest problem I have with the new kisses. It genuinely makes no sense for AA to be acting that way, especially when he's been so careful about showing his hand in the past... UNLESS it's consensual and something both Tav and AA are enjoying. So changing Tav's expression (or giving an option to change it based on your response to make it hurt/be gentle) would fix the entire issue by not making it seem like something Tav doesn't want.

It's even more jarring that these kisses get switched on the second he ascends and before Tav/DU is his spawn. He still has all of his old voicelines (including the "What are we to you?" - "I don't know. But isn't it nice not to know?"), too.

The post kiss lines are spawn Astarion for sure. AA specific lines haven't been developed or released for after the kiss, it seems. It's also jarring for me but not nearly as offensive as the bad look on my character's face.

It's the worst offender for sure. I can live with everything else tbh. Just fix this, please, Larian.

I honestly do not believe anyone posting in this thread is reading or interpreting in 'bad faith', we simply have differing views.
This happens all the time when people discuss literature, games etc. especially in an environment like this forum, where people are posting from all over the world. We each bring our own culture and life-experience to the content we consume and different interpretations are completely normal and to be expected. Responding to art is not like solving an equation, there is no single 'right answer'.


With respect, I feel you may have missed my point in the quote above. I completely respect the integrity of the writers and have absolutely no wish to see them bowing to pressure to change NPC dialogue and actions, unless the action or dialogue in question is inconsistent with what comes before or after.
My objection is to the player's character (Tav) being forced to react to an NPC in a particular way. In this case, the Patch 6 kisses. Removing player agency also 'cheapens the experience'.

Another point I think you need to bear in mind that this is a romance. A good ending for a romance is traditionally that the couple live 'happily ever after'. If we accept this premise, then there are already 'bad' outcomes available.
-The player can break off the romance with A.A while they still have the tadpole, in other words, the relationship ends and the romance fails.
-If the player wishes to break off the romance after defeating the final boss, they find they cannot. Again, this is a bad ending because the relationship continues but it is now non-consensual.
With two 'bad' endings to the romance already in-game, I don't think it is too big an ask that the player has the option of enjoying the romance with A.A. The patch 6 kisses make it very hard for the player to believe Tav is enjoying the romance due to Tav's expressions.

This isn't about morality or good and evil, that is a debate for a different thread. This is about giving each individual player agency to react to the story and the NPCs in a way that makes the experience meaningful and satisfying to them.

AA romance will never be lollipops and rainbows, the man loves murder and debauchery. Loves power and vice. Immoral from the beginning.
This romance is complex and evil enough. But I guess it's also supposed to be "abusive" to a love interest. Why? Because... evil? Always has been, since Act 1, and in Act 2 too.
Tav\Du \du - nonsense\ must be a victim of this abusive behavior.
... "You're supposed to be the victim here".
I wonder what will happen to Minthara in three patches, since the only man for evil is treated like this. The only man for evil romance: player is a poor, frightened victim and character must be unloving abuser.

Choosing evil is "rewarded" with the worst outcome. And choosing good is rewarded with the best outcome - this is saccharine. "Good" Love is only for the "good" fellows.
Disney's Dark Fantasy.

Therefore, the Arch of the Ascension of Astarion was quite unique in its own right.
No matter what anyone says Astarion was an evil character.

Maybe the moral is that if a person is evil and corrupt enough, an evil decision doesn't bother him at all and he will take the fruit, eat it and not choke on it. Because in the epilogue (no matter who thinks there's sadness in his eyes in the milliseconds. It's written in the freakin' script as he enjoys eternal youth (talking to God Gale) and hedonistic debauchery) Astarion is happy. And most curious of all, Astarion is himself. It's very easy to say "lost himself" so you can say that about Astarion Spawn, crossing the path and labeling him. A very simple way.

Only the good (somehow virtuous Tav) will be sad with Lord Astarion.
A kindred evil spirit will be happy.

The funny thing is that the game is already release, Larian changed the narrative with those kisses with scared faces.
Here
No Abuse. Just enjoying the decadence together.
A man wants Tav at any cost, that doesn't mean he wants to torture Tav and doesn't love Tav.
But 90% of the time, Astarion doesn't even have to try. Tav chooses to live with him and the important thing is: Tav likes it.

In the epilogue of Patch 5, there are answers for Tav the lover and the ally. But Patch 6 kisses for the most illogical victim-Tav line ever, wow.

I agree in everything else you wrote, but I disagree here. My tav is good and virtuous AND he IS happy with Lord Astarion, he couldn't be happier! So it's important to give the player the agency, whether they play a Tav or a Durge. Just because, someone plays a good or neutral Tav, doesn't mean, he would be unhappy with AA, for that, a lot of break-up scenes and answers are already there, so everyone is free to roleplay as a victim or being unhappy with the situation/romance.

I play neutral Tav, very often. And Halsin's attitude is, in fact, very noticeable. He's chill to Lord Astarion.
Because everything has to be in balance (evil companions are needed for the path of evil).

Honestly it's a common situation. x) Astarion tempts for evil and the dark side.
Many players who are kind either made an exception for Astarion or became neutral-evil.
Stayed kind to the world, but if it's Astarion's wish, it's Astarion's wish.
All ways of playing the game can't be counted, there are so many.

I'm referring to the overall situation with souls and power. That's why it's the Evil Ending.

However, if reasoned sort of within the framework of DnD (they're actually not bad for character creation) Lawful Good never let Astarion ascend, I don't think the romance did either.

Chaotic good - maybe. Given that the moral dilemma, in effect stands between just killing 7k and using the soul for power. While the huge threat to the living and the world is illithid.
Such power will serve the good at evil cost.
And at the same time Astarion gets everything, it's good when your love is happy and doing what he wants.

The moral dilemma seems too artificial, with souls and spawns 7k. It doesn't work well. Basically the reasoning here is just how it is for Astarion and romance with him.
This is where the game starts role play, which was taken away in patch 6 by adding a scared face to the kiss.

The other thing is that Astarion has a hard time fitting into moral frameworks, especially modern, reality ones, my opinion. Killing is fun for him. "Good for Astarion"... that could be the title of a huge book of crime.
There'll be some good stuff in there somewhere. But not so much that you can put a book on a shelf a kid can reach.

I wasn't sure I wanted to reply to this because I'm not very invested in this issue but decided to do so out of respect for the effort you put the post and out of admiration for your eloquence. Even if I disagree I can say: well said

To my mind the player agency came at several points before this. Encouraging ascension, remaining with AA after his change and accepting a role as spawn. We know from Astarian and from DnD lore that spawn cannot disobey their master and vampires cannot disobey their vampire lord. Tav has said said "fine let's continue without a safeword". You are trusting that AA is the sort of creature that respects consent. Tav chose a tightrope without a net and did so despite many, many indications that this would be bad idea.



And this is the case with all the evil endings except Gale's. (and Gale can be driven away to blow up on his own, he can blow himself at the wrong moment, he can blow up the entire world - blowing himself early is a romance failure)

Shadowheat can be killed in the Shadowfell, given over to Viconia or be killed in a battle over the artifact. Dark Justiciar Shadowheart only has bad endings. The Selunite lover receives the worst of her cruel nature but the Durge receives it as well. SH suspects that the Durge is competing with her for Shar's favor and SH breaks things off to be closer to Shar. There is no more "Shadowheart", she has become Shar's chosen.

Take a look at the Gith-Gith, Vlaakith-loyalist, Romanced Lae'zel ending. I think the facial expressions are fantastic additions to the story. Lae'zel kneels before Vlaakith with a look of serene trust on her face while Tav eyes the undead surrounding them. When Vlaakith pulls the sword Tav realizes that the lich queen is about to drink their souls and Lae'zel is either oblivious to or accepting of that fate. And there's nothing that Tav can do or say. Because they made their choice long ago when they ignored the red flags flying around Vlaakith.

And there are more red flags in the AA romance than one sees in a Chinese New Year parade.

I can support changing the facial expression because they are triggering. But not because they violate player agency. That's showing the author too much disrespect. It's a request that the AA romance be rewritten as a D/s relationship based in consent when it's not. It's contract like Wyll's - you said yes once so you must obey all commands that follow thereafter.

AA is Cazador 2.0 and is not the type of creature to respect boundaries. Let's hope someone kills AA or someone casts true resurrection on Tav.

I completely disagree with this. To me, from a player standpoint, asking for a kiss is consent. It's weird to ask for a kiss and then look extremely distressed about it. It's weird that your character kneels if they're so unhappy about it, when at that point they're still tadpoled up and Astarion hasn't done anything to force them to kneel. Especially if you're playing a character that doesn't get pushed around easily. It makes no sense to me, and I don't think that's disrespectful.

At the point in the story where the kisses are happening, you don't have to obey all the commands because of the tadpole. Which is why it makes no sense. If they happened after the epilogue that would be one thing, but they don't.

))))))

When there are lover and ally responses from the beginning of an AA romance to the epilogue. Where Tav is fighting shoulder to shoulder for Astarion's power, enjoying hedonistic decadence with Astarion. And Astarion literally chill when in patch 6 Tav leaves with Karlach, and Tav tells AA Astarion: "Sorry I was gone then".
Seriously, Lord Astarion says what he wants for Tav: along with him enjoying decadence, it bears little resemblance to rats in a dungeon and the torture of a victim who doesn't like it all.
Respecting Astarion's boundaries for Tav ends with one thing: without Astarion at all.
Oh yeah, those victim face kisses are absurd - that's what's disrespectful to the author.



Sometimes I think Lord Astarion will need to gouge out an eye to because: "he has two eyes, Cazador 2.0" lol. Only works on AA.
The spawn Astarion puts spawns on the stakes. It's not a quick merciful death for a rule breaker due to its vampiric nature. The loss of control is nothing to talk about - terrible punishment.
And Tav, who wants to get away from all that gloomy castle in the Underdark, yes, through a bunch of his loyal retinue, of course.
"The only thing Cazador did wrong was that he did it to me" - Astarion, end of Act 2. Give him a couple years, Cazador 2.0. is just without that much power.
It's very simple to devalue any character's path. It's easiest to devalue the character of the antagonist, the evil character.

I'm just wondering if a moderator will come to this thread again. I'm tired of seeing these comparisons to Cazador 2.0 and other insults, hatred of the character, wishing Lord a quick death. It's all provocation, outright bullying of AA fans in this thread.

And no, it's not "just an opinion" of an individual in this thread.

I hope so too. You should flag my post. Were I a moderator I would respond by warning you that moderators are not there to resolve disputes or give one side of an exchange the upper hand, they are there to ensure that any discussion remains civil.

And your tone is anything but civil.