Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion

I think you've already expressed your opinion on the matter quite clearly, distinctly and thoroughly.
We cleared up some misunderstanding about the "masturbation" part, I get it. And you definitely don't agree with all the suggestions and criticisms of the "abusive victim" line. You've already made that clear.
Maybe for this "suggestions" thread there is no harm in having a discussion that gets to the root of the problem.
But unfortunately it turns into an argument, and repetition, in which everyone has his own unbending opinion. Which is pretty uncomfortable even in a discussion thread.
That's why the thread is called very clearly "Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion", which Larian will listen to or not.

I, like most, don't want to accuse, insult, bully, etc. anyone. And even more so, I don't want to close this thread where people can express themselves and be heard. This seems to be the second or third call for a moderator to come in and clean up just this week. And it's sad, we're on our best behavior.((((

Sometimes the flight of thought goes a little further than the discussion thread. And specifically this thread is about the fact that patch 6 made changes to Astarion that not all of his fans liked. Not about the fact that it's the way it should be, or the morality of it, or the authors' intent.

No aggression. Peace, friendship and bubble gum.

It might be impossible, but I think a fearful face is probably worse than a neutral face in that regard. I'd say most people who play the game aren't playing as characters that would be easily scared. Considering all the horrors the main characters go through, they're really going to be so horrified over a rough kiss that they didn't even have to kneel for? I actually don't even really mind the expression for the other two kisses, because having your lip bitten or getting your face grabbed unexpectedly might be startling. But the kneeling one just makes no sense to me. Maybe the compromise could be to leave the scared face in for one and then change it to a neutral expression for another one?

Tav's overall expression in ALL kisses is SADNESS. Just to clarify this. A scared face isn't the worst (when it's before the kiss). SADNESS is the worst, that's non-consent! There is already an online article about how problematic these kisses in BG3 are, by the way.

@BananaBread, I just don't want someone get the impression, that it's okay, just to take the scared face away. Because Tav's behaviour of the whole scene needs to be changed, most of his (body language/)facial expressions before, during and after the kisses are analyzed, and there is almost nothing good (consensual) in them (except in the kneeling scene, when Tav kisses while kneeling, that's the only consensual part of all 3 kisses)

Yeah I don't like the sad expression!

I'll repeat myself here: no, not scared, not angry.
Not even neutral. Just no.
Only a satisfied face during the kiss.
If you're playing a Tav who doesn't like AA (he almost screams about his tastes) and you don't want to kiss him, you won't go near him. Astarion can't force - tadpole, doesn't work.

If trying to show intimate scenes with neutrality suggesting abusive behavior (tadpole-plot hello) on Feb. 14. Overall it looks like this

Pretty much the scenario now is

Player 1- just adores Astarion as a whole wants to see both sides of the Astarion Coin
They followed the good spawn route now time to follow the Ascended route.
everything was fine up into the scared Tav faces now thats triggering SA victims or those that spend time talking to SA victims knowing how frightening such a thing is .

Like being hit with a shovel by some assailant in your own garden .


Player 2 -

embrace Dark Urge playthrough even if its against the grain of the real life player
snapping necks after a pleasure scene is most likely not their mindset (there may be a few Psychos playing acting out their fantasy in game)
Player has spent over 30 hours to get to the Ritual point being bad and evil since act 2 , ascending the vampire who we all know from prior knowledge is a bit of a douche.
suddenly a patch drops with abused Tav faces and the turn the mean old vampire into a thrall in retaliation has been pulled of the table.
Dark Urge plan has fallen through significantly I can bearly bring myself to play it.

Player 3 -

The Kink seekers/Activists they want to be abused by a vampire lord make it super dark , bloody and "make me hate myself ".
Well they got that wish.

Player 4 -
Summarising all the players before Like's Astarion as a character Neil did a great job with him and deserves the glory, Prior knowledge of his bad end so they make the decision they want to see this end. best way for this end to fit is evil/bad playthrough.

Wants Dark romance does not want abuse shoved in their face. main moral standing "Consent"
If I ask for a kiss to get his consent multiple times I am the one giving myself to the vampire
why the hells would I want to look like that. Astarions animations I'm fine with the Tav's face not so much.

Every other part of the fandom is allowed to give feedback on patch 6 in peace.
Lae players can discuss her change is OOC.
Minthara players can discuss the same.
The second AA fans have the *exact same* feedback about OOC content that no one asked for, WE are the only ones that get a moral lecture about being evil. I genuinely don't understand the hostility.

This isn't some indie art piece about abuse. It's a mainstream videogame advertised to a broad audience. Our feedback is essential to keeping that audience broad.

I genuinely like his character as evil. I also like my character as evil. I love that the game lets you do random, meta things and puts painstaking detail into them. AA's character is perfect. We don't want him to change. We just want the old faces back. If the "Tav is a husk" idea is true, then let them appear neutral, so we can RP how they feel.

It's *not* impossible, though. Because it already existed in every patch until 6. It's not asking too much when it was already done. And then undone. It wouldve actively taken *less work* to keep it neutral.

Naturally I don't mean it like that at all nor that it's wrong, wasn't even addressing anyone in particular. All I'm saying in general is that when the thread is a direct community request for a change of a specific aspect of the game which is clearly not appreciated by many as players interacting with the game, it is far more helpful when the thread sticks to the core of the request, remains clear and is easy to be perceived with a mere glance. So no slight was intended by what I said, therefore there is no need to turn it into something ugly as "bullying" ^^

It's about staying within the spirit of feedback like we used to do back in the day during Early Access, where we'd either say YAY or NAY and entirely stick to the core of the request so the feedback remains clear and to the point for Larian, especially when it came to player requests.

Because the sole issue here stems from the fact that player's own personal roleplay of their own character is being destroyed due to a specific animation during a kiss which entirely misrepresents player's own character as something they do not at all feel is appropriate for their character. It completely breaks immersion and that's why people are here asking for a change.

If the issue stemmed from some aspect of the story itself and people wanted it changed, then that is a whole different thing and absolutely deserves brutal endless debates. But this is an issue about people's direct interaction with the game itself through their own character, therefore it is completely different. It's a community feedback, a request.

Therefore I am simply engaging in the feedback aspect of this feedback thread as a player who is strictly looking at the kissing animation, because the issue is not the representation of Astarion or his story, the issue is the player's own character being misrepresented within that story by taking away their choice to roleplay it properly, in a game which is all about roleplay.

Larian added a hug for Shadowheart's scene due to community request with Update #6 as its own dialogue choice in ACT III. Therefore saying that they can't cover player's roleplay choices in a roleplay game of all things is just not true. They absolutely can and do. That is why people make these requests, so they can properly roleplay their character and enjoy this wonderful game.

I am in full support of that, people should be able to roleplay their own character the way they want to. And in Astarion's case he already has two ways to approach the player; either gentle or rough. Therefore that itself should tie into player's own roleplay of their own character.


Unfortunately I see this being an issue on the forums, I'm even being approached by private messages about this phenomenon too.

That's why I said what I said because as an Early Access member myself who posted tons of feedback, everyone used to be in the spirit of feedback back then and the threads were beautifully clean and to the point. It was such a pleasure to read most of the feedback threads. But today they're just endless senate debates as the original core of the thread gets entirely obscured. Who in the world wants to waste their time to read all that

I addressed this earlier.

Some people want their character to look sad. Some want their character to look scared. Some want their character to look happy. Etc...

It is impossible to please everyone. Thus the scene must please the story, as *several* scenes within the game already do. Including when Tav's face looks shocked or surprised in some scenes. When Tav's face looks pleased. When Tav comments about how it's good that the mind flayer is dead in the opening room on the nautiloid.

Yes, it's entirely fair for folks to say, "Hey, I don't think this face works because x, y, z." It's equally fair for other folks to come in and say, "Hey, I do think this face works because x, y, z."

If you are claiming there is a difference, I fail to see the distinction.


C'mon. Those are rose tinted glasses. I remember years of early access posts. People used to *beg* for one positive thread where someone didn't come in ranting about toilet chains.

*

I would point out that nothing in this thread is being obscured. It is abundantly clear what some people have a problem with. It is also equally clear that there are other people who do not have a problem with it, and--in fact--think it's incredibly appropriate and central to the story.

I think you need to consider that BG3 is not just one story.

There is the main story and connected to that, the stories of all the companions, these are determined by the writers at Larian. Nobody in this thread is asking to have either the main story or A.A.'s story changed. We know the ritual changes Astarion and we are happy with the writing, we aren't asking it to be altered or for his post-ascension personality to be watered down.

Then we have Tav's story. This too is determined by Larian to some extent, because the writers give the player a set of choices to choose from at specific points in the game, meaning the player is slightly constrained.
However, I think Larian have made it clear in interviews and through the mechanics of the game itself, that Tav's story is supposed to be the player's own. We make Tav exactly the way we want and as we play the game, we respond to their choices as we choose (see quote below).

By giving Tav such a scared face and stiff, unresponsive body-language the player loses agency over their character. The writers should not be trying to control the players to this extent in an RPG like BG3. They get to tell the story, but ideally the player should be free to respond how they like.


Yes, it is a mechanic, but you haven't addressed the point I was making. The only players likely to see these kisses are those who feel their Tav would be comfortable with A.A.'s domineering and arrogant personality and who are happy to play along. There is no logical reason for a Tav who fears A.A. to continue a relationship with him or to ask him for a kiss.

Thank you Crimsomrider for explaining it so well.

The intention of this post is to give feedback on Tav's animations in the new AA's kisses and find a solution for everyone so we can all enjoy this wonderful game. We have given many valid reasons and suggestions for requesting this change. It is important for the player to decide and roleplay as they want in their character's relationship with Astarion, specially when the game gives you dialogue options where Tav wants to worship Astarion, enjoys being with him and become his spawn/consort. Kisses should represent this option too, show a mischievous, evil, happy look if you accept to continue with his romance. If you don't like Ascended path, it's fine, you always have the freedom to break up with him before the ending or reload game, but it's a shame for the people who previously enjoyed this dynamic and now they can't do it anymore with new kisses's expressions. Now only Larian is the one to decide if they want to listen to us or not.

But I don't think it pleases the story. Here's a good example...I liked how you can break up with ascended Astarion until the tadpole is gone and then he says no. That was great! The first time I did it, it gave me chills (in a good way!) It made sense for the character and the story line and I liked how they handled it. It's also Astarion's response to being upset that you want to break up and lashing out, not just out of nowhere.

The kisses are a bad example. Astarion gives you harsh kisses for no reason before the tadpole is gone. Storyline wise it makes no sense. And it makes no sense for Tav to go along with it if they don't like it with the tadpole still inside. What is the purpose besides to demonstrate Astarion is abusive to the player in the most clunky, no-nuance way possible?

I fully agree with this point. I think the people critical of AA and his romance are right overall about the natural direction of his character, but the kiss scene does not make sense in light of that, given its placement in the game. If Larian wanted to demonstrate that AA inevitably becomes abusive then the time to do so was the epilogue, where a spawn Tav is fully under his control, not here. And note that his is in no way me suggesting they change the epilogue. If they had done that to begin with I'd have supported it, but changing what they have created at this late stage would just be foolish on their part. Not that they need any help being foolish. But as it stands, the kiss does not work in context. Just the fact it's the aftermath of Tav asking for it means it's illogical and breaks the pace of the story.

It changes the story from a cycle of abuse story into a consensual D/s relationship. It's a change that alters the meaning of the story. In the story, AA 's name is the next on a long list of vampire lord abusers. I understand why people want to see AA as a kinky dom and not the next Cazador but that's not supported by the text of the story.

While I'm happy that Larian responds to requests from players I don't agree with some of changes made so far. I just can't believe that Lae'zel would stay with squid lover . . . Even Wyll bringing prisoners for his squid lover to eat . . .

Why not ask for a happy ending for evil Durge and Dark Justiciar SH? One in which Shadowheart has capacity for love, is not filled with bitterness and suspicion, does not ruminate on loss and places her lover on an equal footing with her goddess? Why no allow evil Durge to giggle instead of looking surprised and hurt when SH turns her suspicions on her lover?

Why not ask for a nice ending for the Vlaakith loyalist lovers?



No one is saying you deserve it, please don't put those words in my mouth. But this is what I ask you to understand. We don't support it because it's change that ripples through to other stories. I like the ending the cycle of abuse story and that story is diminished if there are no negative aspects to AA pursuit of power and nursing of his worst traits.

It was already consensual relationship in patches 5,4,3,2 and 1.
It is patch 6 that changes everything

It's the opposite. These new OOC kisses turn the consensual D/s relationship into a cycle of abuse story (very much illogical). And people got triggered by it. Are you romancing Ascended Astarion?

Nope I always end the cycle of abuse. And because I've listened to what Astarian has said throughout the romance. I know that ascension will destroy him.


Made the same decision when I romanced Shadowheart, Lae'zel and Gale - I led them all away from ascension.

I have watched the scenes on youtube and I have different interpretation of their meaning.

You just made it clear. Thank you very much!