Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion

I'll send you

Yes, absolutely, they have a vision.
I'm familiar with the dev notes. Neil does an amazing job conveying them. The writers absolutely have their own intent.

I also know AA is evil. I know he's toxic. I know the dynamic is unhealthy. I enjoy the RP aspects that come with vampire obsession and control.

My comment was meant to address the specific points of the commenter I had replied to. Mainly that AA is a story about continuing the cycle of abuse. That AA is Cazador 2.0 (He's his own special breed of a-hole. Always has been. That's why I like him). That Tav is now trapped in a non-consensual relationship.

AA is definitely controlling. He tells Tav directly that "sex, relationships and violence are all just different forms of control". To me, the question is whether or not he'd wish to inspire fear in his consort (which relates directly to the issue of what Tav's facial expression should be during their kisses) or if he'd employ a different tool for the job, so to speak.

I also think it's important to consider why AA wants to control his romantic partner. To me, the reason seems to be that he fears spending an eternity alone; I'll add that this doesn't mean he wants an equal partner (I don't think he has any concept of how that would work, or any desire for it). The conversation you have after the Ritual has always amused me, because his lines about "that's what you want, isn't it? To be mine, forever' are so clearly about what HE wants. That entire discussion is him manipulating/seducing Tav into becoming his spawn, dressed up so it doesn't read as weakness on his part (how could he ever ask for what he wants, that would make him vulnerable/beholden to Tav). Again, the reason I believe he does this is fear. He was desperately afraid of being abandoned by Tav before the Ritual (his breakup lines before this point very much support this interpretation) and we have interviews from the writers telling us that pushing him toward the Ritual is Tav telling him that he's right to be afraid.

All that being said, I don't think AA would have a reason to be sadistic/cruel toward a happy, obedient Tav who legitimately wants nothing more than to spend their eternity watching him rule and indulging in every form of depravity imaginable. If anything, AA himself seems to value this version of the relationship; so much so that he really only gets angry when Tav does something to burst his bubble. The vicious lashing out is his default when he feels powerless, and while toxic as hell, is different in nature from the kind of capricious brutality we see with Cazador. AA is at his most delighted when Tav is scheming along with him, provided that they know their place. It's an imbalanced relationship, and nothing I'd want in reality, but this is a fantasy realm and I don't think it's a certainty that Tav will end up an abused, unhappy, sad husk on this path. Is it possible? Of course. Just not definite. Which is the beauty of role playing games, they should have enough ambiguity and open endedness to support different interpretations and outcomes (within reason) that adjust to a player's actions.

I do think it's interesting that if Tav mentions wanting freedom in the epilogue, AA's response is to highlight everything he's given them 'power, pleasure, every decadence that can be afforded to a person' and that he will see them living their best life, even if they don't appreciate it. Which, to me, reinforces the idea that seduction/temptation, and the 'silk glove' approach are his preferred tools for controlling Tav. I don't think he'd use pain and fear on them, just for those who are beneath him and his consort. The hierarchy is AA, Tav many steps below, and then the rest of the world fathoms below that. The game suggests he sees Tav as his most treasured possession, not a punching bag, and I think having a satisfied, smiling consort is important to his self image (hence his lines about wanting the party to seem them thriving together). A Tav with buyer's remorse isn't going to be free, but they're going to be gently persuaded to do what AA wants, not terrorized into it. Not healthy, or romantic, but also not eating rats and being subjected to torture.

To be fair, the cycle of abuse thing is also very directly referenced both by Vellioth's skull, the list of vampire lords (everything's there for a reason! They wouldn't allude to this randomly, just because) , and Spawn Astarion himself saying it almost verbatim, he says something like "Believed I was enough to break this cycle of power and terror". I'd say this isn't hidden in the devnotes, but part of the text of the game itself.

Don't get me wrong, I also quite dislike when a conversation regarding AA is shut down with a "it perpetuates the cycle of abuse" and it proceeds to be repeated like a mantra. Because to me this is a very surface-level analysis, and seems to refuse to look a bit deeper into his characterisation. Sure, it's true, but it's so obvious it's kind of like... is that truly all you can say about this? There's a lot more interesting stuff you can get from the route, and when people leave it at that I feel like they're not interested with engaging with that part of the story. It's okay if they're not, but eh, it's an annoying comment, even if I think it's true.

Ahh, sorry I already replied to you once but this is just such a *perfect* way of putting it.
The list I made of lines to change isn't because I'd see it as mistaking them for "good", but mistaking the lines as the devs allowing players to roleplay a plotline that doesn't actually exist. I'm looking it at it from a meta game prospective. Because double speak, and open ended dialogue is how *a lot* of franchises do RPG.

So when I'm looking at dialogue like I listed, I'm not thinking "wow, this Astarion dude is a great guy!" I'm thinking, "oh cool, these devs are letting me RP an evil romance, finally!" They're letting players who hate him take it as lies, and players who like him as genuine affection. Because that's how most RPGs tend to handle their dialogue.

How BioWare handled the Dread Wolf romance in DA is a perfect example. Some of the lines might be clunky. You might have to roll your eyes a few times. But they've really created this for every player mind!

Only for patch 6 to come out--and (to many, Im not certain it was on purpose) firmly nail down only one perspective. No more RPing. Just kidding, they don't cater to evil players who are only attracted to men.

At best, they dropped the ball and over played their hand, pinning down a roleplay experience. At worst, they created a videogame character to lure players into an abusive dynamic, then dropped vivd scenes of their own PC being visibly terrified/abused to prove a point on Valentine's day. Which is just...not how to handle such a delicate topic when your making content for a broad audience. I choose to have good faith in the company and say that wasn't their intent.

[Edit to include another very good point you made:]
"Believed I was enough to break this cycle of power and terror" is another perfect example of a classic RP line. Power and terror. AA has gained new power. He will definitely reign terror. As would plenty of evil tavs, gladly. What *exactly* that looks like, is up to RP. It's the perfect parallel to the spawn ending-- will he find a cure? Vs. What will AA's power look like? It's been different for every lord according to the list you find. However, "the cycle of power and terror" =\= AA's going to go back to camp and dv Tav. What his reign of terror (an exciting idea for evil players) will look like, is left ambiguous.

Hmm, I don’t know, maybe people understand what about we saying, if i show picture all dialogues with AAstarion after the ritual? Here is one of my dialogues, we argued and made up. I like how they argue, it brings out Astarion better.
And after this, new kisses don' t suit my story.

I hope the pictures load. If not, I'll fix it later

Continue

Maybe a little off the topic of AA, but on the subject of Astarion. Here's something I've noticed. After patch 6 with the addition of the new Spawn hand kiss, even he is having trouble with the TAV face.
1 and 1.1 the face after new the hand kiss.
2 and 2.1 the face that was and is after the old kiss where Astarion pulls to him.
The difference is in the face so to speak.

Yep, you're right. I would say it has slightly signs of concern, sadness, contempt in it, rather than contentment. It's probably not very noticeable, I think it's only visible for a short time after the kiss, right?
Your Tav looks like: "Ahem.. that was... all? Really? Nah.. "

And by the way, beautiful Tav!

Tav looks happy throughout the kiss and only makes a weird face at the very end, as if some sudden thought crossed their mind. To be honest, at this point, I won't be amazed if the next patch will mess up UA romance too. They gave him his fake smile or the "grinch face" as I see people call it in the new epilogue, instead of a genuinely happy expression as well. Why animate him this way when he has a perfectly content face in freecam footage before Tav wakes up? Maybe the preaching will be taken to the next level and we'll be "taught" that romancing Astarion was something we should never have done.

I hope I did not misunderstand what people where trying to say in this thread, but I will had my own thoughts.

Let's say that we don't change the reaction we can see in Tav/Durge in those kissing scenes, because it is a story about abuse, and otherwise it would be some consensual kink or the like. We don't do it because it would be detrimental to the story. And it's fine as is, nothing else to add anywhere else to tell the story.

The story is (supposed to be) that Astarion is now abusive to his (not yet completely under his control) lover. A path that was added for people willing to play with it, to explore it. Fine. Still, first of all it seems that this visible reaction, chosen for the player out of the blue in a rather lengthy and impactful romantic scene, is the key thing that lets everyone say "yep, it was abuse". The person going that route, who might roleplay or self insert very differently than someone who was like "nope" ahead of time, thought they and their character were in some state of mind, and then (for at least a lot of them) "surprise !" And their non choice, as for the very railroaded becoming a spawn in the first place, does all of the heavy lifting in telling the story... Second, fine, let's tell that in such a way. But it's an unexpected change. It can already be argued that it's not exactly coherent with what surrounds it. What about a dialogue option then, during the scene or after, to ask him why it was that way so suddenly, if it's going to be like that all the time ? Let him do some lifting too (since after all it is a common story in between the two of them). It could even properly lead to going their own ways, gaining some form of resolve, hoping to find a solution, offing him and what not. Does a good story touching on sensitive material, from which we might hope to get something insightful (falling into a trap for whatever reason, if it's the jest of things, is not necessarily the end of it all), really has to force like this to be told, without any option besides clunky (sometimes metagamey) ones ?

All that to say that, even if I take it from such an angle (and I do not personally mind if it's the story someone wanted to tell me and make me participate in), I consider it to be very sloppy (just my opinion). And that's just one way to look at it. I've tried to play Durge too (good and bad, and stopped because of too many things that have my immersion breaking), but I certainly can imagine one not batting an eye to such attentions (at the very least). I understand there are limitations for them, they can't do it all, cater to every need. But that's a part of the story they chose to tell, and where player agency is concerned, if perfect is not possible, I would at least enjoy it a little more if my character was not taken out of context and used as a storytelling tool in such a fashion. And if, at least, a few options were given to me to get back on track, rebuild coherence, and reinsert myself in the "ok... what story was I playing again?"

Yes, exactly during the kiss it's fine, but afterwards there's an incomprehensible expression, like Tav licked a lemon.



Thank you!


Scary, very scary, we don't know what it is.
AA isn't far removed from the Grinch Face either. But UA's is a quiet horror. I too am in favor of a softer expression for UA.

Modders have figured out that the Grinch Face is due to missing LODs when you set the animation settings to High. Grinch faces go away either with a recently uploaded mod or by setting the animation settings to medium. I can only assume or hope that all Grinch Faces were accidental, because honestly, they look bad and they weren't a thing in EA.

(Sources:
https://www.nexusmods.com/baldursgate3/mods/7442
https://twitter.com/pumpkin_cat_nya/status/1759550883329724489 )

EDIT: Further info about this is that Astarion's head mesh was slightly changed during EA and the rig wasn't updated to account for the differences. They made his cheekbones a bit less prominent by softening the contrast there and they made the inside of his lips less "meaty" which is the main reason for grinch face, I'd assume.
Here's a mod that restores his EA mesh and thus, also fixes Grinch Face: https://www.nexusmods.com/baldursgate3/mods/6254

I don't give much thought to the facial animations of a kiss that wasn't even properly adapted to all body heights. That the characters' movements look clumsy with a PC of the same height or smaller than Astarion bothers me much more. That his left arm just dangles also only makes sense with a taller PC.

I also can't shake the feeling that the old kiss now zooms in more than it did before during the start and ending of the animation.

Edit: That is quite fascinating @jinetemoranco - in general it's interesting to see how the models changed over time. EA Astarion looked so much cuter, more "angelic" if you will. ^^

No it's not. Before the kisses, it was possible to avoid abuse from Astarion by being on the same page with him and not arguing. Abusers CAN be nice and their kindness is conditional. The victim can kind of control their behavior. That's been the experience with romancing AA before patch 6. Your claim that it's always been about abuse makes me think you never tried to enjoy romancing AA, so you don't understand that it's potentially enjoyable. The patch 6 kisses remove that possibility. It changes things. It doesn't reinforce anything that previously existed. Claiming that AA's romance is only about abuse is rather short-sighted, single-minded, and it's trying to railroad everyone to a specific reaction, when we all may react differently to it.

My bad Metarra, I probably did not convey my point very well. I was simply trying to talk about it all in one suggested interpretation, that it is about Astarion abusing is lover, and that those faces might serve such a story and are fine as is.

I was just trying to say that, even if it were the vision we were to be fully on board with, it is (in my opinion again) sloppy writing to let the railroaded "becoming a spawn" choice and the "I'm suddenly very scared" reaction to kisses be the heavy lifting events of the story. Even in such a case (or thought experiment), it is too easy, forceful, and leaves the player and/or the character with a maelstrom of problems that are not necessarily used to build up on the story. And even if I could be fine with participating in the telling of such a story, I am not really game if it has to short fall in such ways, most of all when it takes away agency like that. As is, to me, it does not serve even such a story about the cycle of abuse. Without even talking about other problems, like you or others have mentioned.

I tried to mention this at some point here or maybe it was in one of the other threads but no one could see my point. Thank you for showing it with pictures, I wanted to do that but didn't know how since I'm playing on ps5, I think it's easier to see that way. When you play as a human, the "worry" face is even more clear and it's as you said after patch 6.

Um... I, uh, don't... Hmm.

As far as being kind goes, I think it is worth pointing out that Astarion himself says that he has no objection to being nice once he has the power to control people with his mind.

A lot of Ascended Astarion’s self image is tied up in the need to be ‘better’ than Cazador. He means this is terms of having more power and success, but I also think with respect to how his spawn (including Tav) see him. He wants to be worshipped/adored, and to create a world of shadows for them. Unlike Cazador, who deprived and tormented his spawn.

So, to me, AA terrorizing Tav does not make sense. Even when we accept that he is controlling and regards Tav as his treasured possession. He just has other, better means of maintaining his dominance over them.

@melgreg Yes, I have always had that idea in my mind, that despite being evil and wanting to have control over everything somehow I can't imagine Astarion torturing his spawns, he wants to give them a better life than he had. Obviously he's still an evil lord vampire but I think, as you've said, he maybe wants them to worship him and he is possibly "better" than Cazador in that sense. That's a good interpretation. Nothing is shown clearly in the game so everyone can have their own headcanon and that's cool and interesting!