Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion

It's more like, you keep saying you're not afraid, but you sure do look scared. I mean, just look at Tav's face! (jk)

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The point is that, if left to players, Tav would be entirely unrealistic 9 times out of 10 in regards to things like this. You ask a player what their character is doing during downtime. They all answer something like, "Training. Getting stronger. Constantly working to make magic items or scrolls every second of every day of downtime."

None of them say, "Sitting on the couch and drinking."

The majority of players just want to look cool. "I ain't never scared or shocked or nuthin'."

That type of "player agency" doesn't work in an actual story. I applaud the writers for taking the reins in this case. It improves the story by giving it a realistic depth and showcasing the monstrous evil that has been unleashed on the world.

Interestingly, no. His empathy with them, makes him want to complete the ritual, so they are gone and he no longer has to think about them, as @jinetemoranco said. His empathy with them reminds him of his own weakness, which he wishes to eradicate. What makes him doubt, is his sense of justice. While Cazador controlled him, Astarion had to do his bidding but now that he is free he can make up for his mistakes.

At the beginning of the story freedom for Astarion means being able to do everything he wants, being a tyrant. When he steps back from the ritual he redefines it, he has learned that freedom means making choices but also accepting responsibility for one's actions. It's this sense of responsibility, which makes the Underdark a possible ending for him. He does not want to go into the Underdark, but he sees it as a responsibility. The Origin ending with romanced Gale acknowledges this too. When Gale proposes, Astarion's reply is "I love you, but I think the vampire spawn in the Underdark need me."

Edit: In the romance is also not fear which motivates Astarion to confess his feelings and his previous plot to the PC in Act2, but wanting to do the right thing. The PC impressed him and Astarion does not longer want a relationship build on deceit but "something real" even though he cannot yet fathom what this might be. Astarion was a magistrate, deep down he knows right from wrong and he is/ was not a merciful judge. It's a bit funny, considering he is such a charlatan. Fear is not at the base of his redeeming qualities, it's what keeps them locked away. Empathy is Gale's thing, Astarion's reasoning is always fairness, moral if you will. He hates who he is, whom Cazador made him and the ritual decides how he deals with it: Does he hide his shame from the world, so powerful nobody can touch him - the path of fear - or does he take responsibility for his actions.

Because I know that you like quotes - and I do too - I made you some screengrabs from the dialogue log.

Do you think we did the right thing freeing the spawn?

Don't you feel for them?

The world doesn't need to know my shame.

I had no choice, but now it seems I do.

Do you have a moment?

To ascend is to be consumed.

To kill them would have been an even greater crime.

It's great that you also played the early versions and we understand that it all comes down to Homebrew . On the one hand, you can close this question and say that: in a non-linear RPG there are only two ways in which one is a priori correct and the other is completely wrong. But you and I realize that this is not how RPGs work in the hands of a Master. And even the very statement "non-linearity" cannot contain only two paths, unambiguously "good" and unambiguously "bad". Let's remember BG2, where both Thieves in the Shadow and Bodhi are not initially "good", we ourselves are free to make a choice, but even in it we are not limited by the limits of morality. No one teaches us how to do the "right" thing, we only see the consequences of our choices. But even this choice is not pure good or evil. Had we not come to Bodhi for our soul and she would not have fought us, even Airenicus did not feel a sense of vengeance against his former lover who condemned him to eternal damnation. That's the depth of the characters and their motivations. Evil is relative.
But with Astarion it's sad, he is so often and so much rewritten that now I'm not sure which Astarion I'm talking about: the one that was in the release on August 3 or what they did to him in the 6th patch. Agreed, it's not right to change a character's personality so much from the release of the game. It makes people confused. Astarion spends the entire game saying what he wants and lusting for power. I finished the walkthrough on August 10 without ever using the larvae and I had a dialog in which Astarion threatened to kill me if I didn't let him use the larvae, not because he was afraid, not because he was afraid, but because he wanted power. He says throughout the game that power is the meaning of his life, he strived for it and he strives for it: "the strong can afford to be a hero and take care of the weak (c)" This is Astwarion's glory from chapter 1. Here we realize that only after gaining strength and power Astarion is ready to change, ready to be better, ready to be more than he is now.
And I like that. I'm ready to support the character in his desire to become everything for the sake of finding the strength to change himself. That's why AA is a logical path for Astarion, it is his apogee, his highest point of the monomyth when the hero receiving power realizes responsibility and power and understands what to do with it without becoming a monster. The way when in order to come to the Light one must give oneself to the Darkness. And that's what we see in the epilogue. AA has not become a monster, he lives a normal life, having balls and loves, really loves Tav, because he has feelings now. He doesn't need thousands of spawns, he doesn't need the Darkness, he needs Tav and a normal life. This is a very cool trope in books, games and movies and we could see it in The Chronicles of Amber, how much did Corwin give up to chart the Path and become a good king? Out of Chaos, Order is born. But Order is not good and Chaos is not evil. Good can exist in the heart of Chaos, and Order can be the embodiment of evil.
For the same reason Spavn is not good, it has no branch of redemption, nor are the 7000 spawns innocent. All of them without a master's hand are brutal killers who can't contain their bloodlust.
Back to the treaty. There's a big hole here. A pact with the devil is made by a specific person, not just some ritual that whoever found it fulfills it. So Astarion always knew about the pact. He might not remember it, he might have lied about it, but he couldn't not know about it like all 7000 spawns.Astarion's age was changed from 350 years to 263 in patch 6 for a reason, because originally he wasn't even a spawn of Kasador, but most likely belonged to Veliot. We have so many plot holes now, so many gaps, that it's impossible to talk about the spavin as an innocent victim. And to say that AA has changed his character is also maximally debatable. AA essentially becomes just what he was when he was alive, no more and no less.

Okay, so, few things here:

-In the game, Astarion's 239 and he's been 239 since patch 1, unless they've changed his gravestone textures in patch 6

-The mobile game Idle Champions (which we can consider pseudo-canon) originally released him with a character sheet stating he was 350, which was assumed to mean he was turned at age 150, however in October/November (a couple months after the Idle Champions reveal) they changed it to 263, presumably due to fans commenting on it, and as an easy fix to all the plot holes regarding the dates in the game: the grave states that the current year is 1468, so Idle Champions instead added the extra 24 years to it so it's 1492. Given that Rooney helped with the original sheet that said 350, I'm unsure if he either didn't have input for his age there/didn't mind, if it was Welch who originally wrote him as 239 (as they wrote a good chunk of the act 2 and 3 Astarion romances) or if Rooney realised that the age wasn't right later.

-From the very first mention of Astarion he's been Cazador's spawn, nothing from EA, datamines, or even before the release of EA suggests otherwise, the very first concept we have is that when he was alive he sold slaves to Cazador. This is most likely a deprecated storyline.

But you do realize that the canon of Wizard, the official publishers of DnD on which BG3 is built is more relevant than Larian's inaccuracies?

Where have you seen him stated as 350 other than in Idle Champions (which is as canon to WoTC as BG3)? Which, again, was changed months ago to 263, and was assumed to mean he was turned at 150, as he's an elf, and keeps bringing up in dialogue that he's been a spawn for 200 years.

The insinuation that players are asking too much is a complete misunderstanding of what the majority of people are saying. The proper faces already existed. We had them up until patch 6. No one is asking for anything extra. They're asking for what they already had back. That's not too much to ask. It already exists.


It already did work. It was actively part of the game until patch 6. Few players were here complaining until the recent change. Which means they were already satisfied with the agency they'd been given so far.

not 200 but 170, as Sebastian says in Casador's Dungeon. While Astarion himself says Sebastian was his first victim. And before that, Astarion talks about a young man he wanted to help escape and we understand that it was Sebastian.

I'm unsure if the Russian localization made this more ambiguous, but in the English version he says it was /one of his first/, not his first.
The man he wanted to help escape is a different guy as well (otherwise Sebastian's dialogue would look pretty different, IMO), and probably an earlier mark than Sebastian too from what we can gather, so we can guess Sebastian died at least a decade after Astarion was turned.

That being said, making him younger wouldn't help the theory that Astarion was originally Vellioth's spawn but go against it, and like I said, he's been very consistently 239 ingame since release.

Nice joke. XD

If Tav or Duge is facing down monsters, evil people, mind flayers and gods bravely on a daily basis (or every single day you get to see anyway!) how is it realistic that Tav is suddenly terrified of their vampire boyfriend giving them a rough kiss? I just don't agree that it's realistic. It is jarring and takes me out of the game!

That is, to me, a strange way to make a point. You’re scared, no matter what you say, because look at those newly implemented scenes, for which I have personally seen no clear communication (in terms of intent and what changes it might herald). Not talking about other coherent follow up still not there to give it proper weight. But to each their own.

I don’t see what the spare time occupations of the characters have to do with bravado or pretending to not be scared. I mean, here for example, they have quite the preoccupations. But even so, being scared and the poster person for a bit of story, that still could be written with more finesse, doesn’t mean there can’t be no reining it in, no reactivity. I imagine the character can be quite scared in many instances, that doesn’t make it completely passive either.

And I don’t know if it showcases so much. I mean, yes there has been a ritual with grave consequences. But at this point in time it’s mostly a monstrous evil unleashed upon their love interest, who still tags along and sometimes has some nice things to say, all things considered. I don’t know, maybe it’s me, but I wouldn’t go as far as what you say.

Maybe, but I still find it strange that Cazador didn't even try to control Astarion as a spawn with his mind. Cazador isn't even surprised that Astarion sasses him, as if it's normal, moreover Cazador says that - I've put up with you for so many years... Question: if you can, really can, control the spavn, what's stopping you from silencing him?

When Astarion's siblings manage to take him, Cazador's will enters his mind while the skeleton holds him. Astarion has to succeed a saving throw to break free from Cazador's influence.

What I find weird is that he doesn't use any mind tricks when Astarion has no tadpole:



He is not surprised at all, because Astarion throwing temper tantrums is his typical behaviour it seems. This just shows that his angry side was always there, and he was putting on a front to appear nicer to Tav so they'd help him (which he continues to do to keep Tav happy after dealing with Cazador).

At 11:47: "Do the cattle not know you, boy? Have they not seen your fits of temper?"

Astarion as a spawn in my opinion is just broken as a character, hence all the weirdness. When a character has one author, and then comes someone "very smart" and starts to fix what was already working well according to the original idea you get a 6 patch with a very strange content.

Agreed.

As for AA, it really looks like there were 2 different writers who couldn't decide on things and were trolling each other. The narrative is a mess.

AA is very sorry for Tav when they're being used by the incubus and says it's a wretched thing to not be in control of your body but then in the newest patch he's fine abusing Tav himself.

^^

Perfectly said. Both of you.

I think it's important to consider before we pin anything to the writers we know that they might have (and probably don't have) anything to do with the way the kisses look, and might be more in the cinematic artists' department. Even if they gave a rough outline for ideas (For example, kneeling) the facial animations were probably up to the animators, or grabbed from whoever acted as Tav when they recorded the mo-cap, as we know they record it for reference for the artists.
When the writers leave instructions for the cinematic team, you usually find it in the devnotes (for example, the act 1 Astarion romance has a bunch of instructions) but for the kisses, the only instructions are "Smooches" for all of them. Of course there could be some extra communication we don't know about, but innocent until proven guilty.

For example, from what we know, AA's sex scene (the one with the candles and the thrusting and all that) wasn't in the script (instead what's there is some allusions to sex, but tame stuff, even tamer than the one ingame), and it wasn't meant to be a thing. According to the writers, seeing that scene was a "surprise from the cinematics team".
We also know that at least one of the cinematic artists planned one of Gale's kisses, the one at the Elfsong Tavern where he kisses Tav's hand.

Making a game is a very collaborative effort, and a lot of people have influenced the characters.

Here was David Gaider not allowing other writers to change their characters after the game was released. And he was BioWare's lead screenwriter, after all. It's a shame when good things are just destroyed to do the "right" thing. Alas, BG2 is still the best RPG in terms of companions and their interaction with the protagonist.

@jinetemoranco: Then how do you explain the sudden sad face of Tav in the epilogue (changed from neutral/positive), romance scene censorship, and the "You are my favourite" line? Someone clearly wanted to make the romance less appealing. For Valentine's Day no less.