Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion Justice for Minthara

I play a drow Cleric of Eilistraee. Literally Eilistraee's entire mission is to unite the drow.

I read that Swen Vincke stated at the Game Developer's Conference there will be no DLC or expansions for Baldur's Gate 3. I would have enjoyed them rounding out a few unfinished aspects, like Minthara's character, but it appears that is not going to happen. What's everyone else's take on the news?

Overwhelming disappointment, anger, loss of faith in Larian and strong skepticism towards their future projects from now on, to put it mildly.

Been waiting for Minthy fixes and content for more than half a year to get nothing.
First Viconia falls prey to character assassination, now Mintara will never get out of a bug-fest and content neglection abyss. There's certainly some anti-Drow bias.

To be fair, I'm pretty sure they said the same thing about D:OS 1 and 2 and they still released a Definitive Edition that fixed a ton of things (and basically remaking the 3rd act in both because Larian is apparently incapable of making an Act 3 good the first time around).

That being said, I feel like not making more content for BG3 is just leaving free money on the table. Seems kind of a weird idea, even for Larian.

One can hope, but y'know...hope is such a tease. I would love to think they want to resolve Act III cuts and rewrites but my time in Early Access made me a cynic. As was foretold we look to the modding community now to dig stuff up if possible. If its not... well... thats that. I pray I'm wrong, time will tell.



They probably don't want to get involved with the corporate bullshit that their partners are up to. Sad state of affairs because multiple communities are being shafted with the decision to leave the Baldur's Gate IP in limbo once again. It feels very rug-pully, I really hoped this was just the start.

Still, it's questionable if the Definitive Edition will solve all problems or change the narrative at all, because if they haven't been able to come up with good writing within 8 years, why should they be capable of doing so now?

Undoubtedly BG3 was a big win for Larian and WotC. However, was it a fair deal? I read that WotC pulled in $80-$90 million from BG3? Anybody know how much Larian grossed, or what was the total gross? It would be grossly (pun intended) unfair if Larian didn't reap the lion's share of the receipts. Is the D&D IP really worth $80 million for BG3? What else did WotC contribute to BG3?

In addition to revenue from BG3, WotC received free advertising for their D&D brand just by virtue of association with the massively popular and awesome BG3. It sounds like this was a great deal for WotC.

Whatever the case with their current arrangement, I wouldn't be surprised if Larian went back to WotC asking for a bigger share of the revenue for any further D&D products. And perhaps WotC was like "pound sand".

WotC has come out saying they want to pump out at least one D&D game per year through 2030. That sounds like placing quantity over quality. It's all very "corporate". Swen has indicated that that's not the kind of business model he wants for Larian. Larian will be a quality-over-quantity company. Unlike public companies focusing on quarterly profits, Larian can decide its own metrics and timetables for success.

What do you mean, "they haven't been able to come up with good writing within 8 years"? What's wrong with the writing in the past 8 years? Isn't that when they wrote BG3?

Well it is not bad, but they changed so many narrative things on characters (like Halsin, Wyll etc.), they changed major plot lines (like the background story between Halsin and Ketheric), there are lot of plot holes, the whole Emperor is poorly written, they pick up some many plot threads and never end them etc.
If you check some threads on the forums, you'll see lots of complaints written by the fans, explaining that a lot more in detail than what would be good for this thread.
Also, I'm sure all my Minty fans on here can explain in detail why she is also a character that suffers from bad writing decisions

I had no exposure to BG3 before its initial release. From my experience as someone who started with the initial release (well, Patch 4 to be exact), the story of BG3 is quite cohesive and complete. The writing is excellent. I wouldn't go so far as to call the plot airtight. I did identify at least one inexplicable plot hole, but the story and writing are still far superior than what's considered the norm for RPG and adventure games.

From my experience, Minthara feels underdeveloped and incomplete. I wouldn't attribute that to poor writing. There is ample evidence from BG3 that Larian is quite capable of stellar character development. Rather, I think Larian just didn't finish what they wanted to deliver for her and decided to deliver her as an incomplete part of the whole. That's a shame. I've said it before—it probably would have been cleaner to remove her companion character and leave her as a boss. No one who had no experience with the BG3 EA would know any better. For all I know, there was an incomplete Alfira companion that was left on the cutting room floor.

It took me about 150 hours of pure entertainment to finish BG3 the first time, and I've spent almost 700 hours playing in total. I'm truly disappointed to hear that there will be no new BG3 content, but I'm happy for what I got.

I understand your point and if you started with patch 4, I get why it feels like really good writing for you. From what I read and saw myself and from what others said, the main story is really plain (like the usual 08/15 story you get).
Some of the flaws:
- You have a brain eating amoeba in your head but you never feel the threat coming from it. On EA, you were kinda constantly reminded of that tadpole while on full release, it's a topic at the beginning and from then on it's like "nah I don't care, let's have fun" and all of that just for the emporer to have a reason to exist. Speaking about the emperor, beside his real background (which was like a slap in the face for some DnD fans), there are far too many flaws or stuff that could've been done better. I recommend this thread: Click here
- They removed Daisy from EA, a character no one complained about and who has been far more interesting, embodying the seduction of power.
- The change of the effect of Omeluum's ring from EA (shielding you from the tadpoles influence) to release (immunity against charming iirc). They could've used this character as an ally, working together with us against the Absolute but now here is just some NPC. I guess he was redundant when they came up with the Emperor
- Two of the three bosses are a joke. Ketheric has a huge build-up and is the only one who feels like a real threat and you are somewhat satisfied after killing him. Orin could've been a good enemy, but it feels lazy she just appears somewhere, just talks a bit and then disappears. If they wanted to play psycho games, she should have felt way more like a threat than now. It's more like a "yo remember I am still there" and even with the way the kidnapping is done (it should always aim at your highest approval companion or LI), it's just lacking a lot.
Gortash, who undenyable could have been the charming enemy is just a joke who likes to use Teams chat to tell you "nah nah, don't go into my water prison" and otherwise he just lacks a lot. You can feel that he was supposed to be in the Upper City and that would've been perfect. Ketheric: Shadowcursed Lands, Orin: Lower City, Gortash: Upper City. Sadly, this whole part of the city didn't make it and so Gortash has been banned to Wyrm's Crossing.
- The humor and jokes always feels off for me, it doesn't really fit the whole situation, it feels artificial at scripted at some times. Example: All of those dialogues with the Drow twins, it felt like some giggling 13yo teenagers writing some supposedly horny stuff on some kids chat. Don't get me wrong, I love humor but the way Larian delivers the jokes are off to me. Some of the more humorous answers the Tav can say also feel more like they are made at the expense of others. They lack timing and situational awareness. But, truth be told, there are some good jokes, like all the characters reactions to Dribbles the clown.
- The game punishes you for playing evil and also they punish you for "oversexualizing characters", but I won't go to deep on this matter, as that would include speaking about specific Larian members.

Now about the characters:
- Gale: He feels like Larian doesn't really like him, he is always the victim of jokes and they don't really care how people who like him feel.
- SH: She is written pretty good, her quest line is one of the best, but there is no real difference in her Shar and Selûne path (beside the hair color and the ending), but there needs to be a difference. You do not simply react and behave the same if you follow two opposite goddesses. Even if she is on the Selûne path, she still praises a lot of things from her Shar past (although she says she hated it at another point). To be honest: They just wanted that for sex. Let's not talk about her reaction when cheating with Mizora or in Sharess Caress, that just doesn't fit her Selûne path at all.
- Wyll: Never played his quest line on my own, but from what I know it's mostly not about him, but the history of Baldur's Gate and the Emperor.
- Astarion: Possibly the best written character and to be fair the one they invested the most in.
- Karlach: Her whole quest line feels like it was intended to be way bigger, giving the Tav a chance to fix her engine (that's what you collect the items for, at least that's what they want you to think) just to end up with nothing more than an unsatisfying ending with a stupid cigar in Avernus. Even 6 months later there is no solution to her situation, leaving this character arc completely unfinished. If you play Karlach as Origin character and romance Halsin, you get one of the worst endings with a dude who just doesn't give a f*ck. So, so sad.
- Minthara: I think this thread is evidence enough, but if you need more insight, please check this wonderful thread.
- Halsin: Probably one of the worst written characters and a living contradiction. Where should I even start? Maybe in EA, when he was just some NPC with influence on the main story. His character was strong, independent, wise and so on. There were lot of hints about his background and his connection to the Thorm family (especially him killing Isobel in an accident, causing Ketheric to go crazy. The weapon named Sorrow used in the accident can be found in the grove), but they decided to cut all of that. At this point, he doesn't even recognize Ketheric when he sees a painting of him. His character is inconsistent, Larian just fused the "oh daddy" and the "family daddy" styles together to get the ultimate "Daddy Halsin". His romance shouldn't even be called a romance, his solomance is unsatisfying and even in a polymance, he lacks commitment (and we talked about that often enough, a polymance isn't just about sex, it's about commiting to more than one person with all your heart), but at least the epilogue added the feeling of him commiting to the Tav (while avoiding to say they are in a relationship).
- Minthara + Halsin: Both share the same destiny, both of them feel rushed, they lack a real slow burn romance plus you are forced to choose between them (which makes Halsin look like an idiot).

Bear in mind: This is my opinion based on what I saw and what I gathered from others. Also, there is a lot more than that, but this would be too much to write here. I just listed some of the things I could remember or that bothered me.
Things I didn*t really touched on but also have flaws: Mizora cheating, Haarlep, Tav being from BG but no one even asks you where you lived, no one remembers you and so on.

Can't even begin to say how much I agree with this and I've been saying it since the beginning. Act 3 is a complete mess that was very clearly rushed, both simultaneously being too bloated and too lacking (far too many plots are resolved badly or too quickly because they tried to cram 2-3 entire acts worth of content into one instead of giving each plot line the breathing room it deserved).

If you think the white male racist who believes Karlach deserves to burn in hell for being a member of an oppressed minority stereotyped as innately evil has any interest in improving the writing and content of a character who exists purely to be evil because she's dark-skinned and comes from a society with women in positions of authority, you're more deluded than people who think BG3 is a finished game.

WTF kind of statement is this that comes out of nowhere?

Also, you have any evidence to support that claim or are you just making things up?

I’ve given Thelxiope a 24 hour timeout for spamming the forum with multiple similar heated and apparently intentionally provocative accusations, after returning to the forum after they’d been warned for similar behaviour a few weeks ago.

As I’ve said to them, these forums are intended as a place for friendly discussion, which means amongst other things at least trying to engage constructively with fellow community members.

I got baited. Sorry, Queen. My bad.

Thanks, and no worries. And while I would prefer people to stay calm even in the face of provocation, or to ignore and report a comment if they don’t feel able to reply positively and politely, I should make clear it was Thelxiope whom I felt wasn’t even trying to engage constructively. I realised after posting that as I’d quoted you, that was somewhat ambiguous!

I appreciate you filling me on this. I agree with some of your points, and have different feelings about others. So, to your first point, while you did not feel the urgency of removing the brain eating tadpole, I did. That was my experience playing the game.

Omeluum's ring was a head scratcher to be sure. That it was originally more powerful makes sense. The ring you get in the game is lame by comparison to the mind shielding magic that Omeluum describes.

Ketheric is the best boss fight of the three Chosen, Orin was not much to speak of.

Wyll is the most boring and unappealing of the origin characters to me. He screams "daddy issues". I don't want to be part of his psychotherapy, thanks. Fortunately, I was able to mostly ignore him.

To return to topic of the thread, Minthara was a disappointment. So much potential and build up, and there's not much to speak of in act 3. But I've written about her before.

First of all, I really appreciate your answer, it so refreshing to see someone talking about opinions without getting angry, so thank you!
I'm glad that you felt the urgency and I totally respect hat, even if I didn't feel it.

As for Minthara, she really is disappointing, especially if you consider the lenghts you have to go to even get her compared to other companions (and all the bugs after more than 7 months).

I love a good excuse to talk about Wyll's backstory changes from Early Access. In Early Access he was a LOT more okay with his deal with the devil, bargaining for power to do the right thing, even having fun with being seduced by Mizora into it. But he got flak in the feedback about seeming like a somewhat uninspired off-brand Goblin Slayer (and I personally at least considered the notion of Mizora being captured by Goblins to be absolutely ridiculous) that could use some adjustments and instead of making him just a little less obsessed with the goblins he had all this great anti-hero writing completely stripped from him and they turned him into a victimized paragon of righteous good. He was SO MUCH MORE INTERESTING before. I would have loved to see the version of the game that never was where Wyll has his big face to face with his dad where it is exactly what Ravengard thinks it is, because that's exactly what it originally was. I want to see Ravengard actually have to deprogram himself a little bit in the face of Wyll still being righteous and moral in spite of LOVING being a Warlock to a devil rather than "no, no it's not what it looks like I was tricked and these horns are my punishment" stumbling over himself in utter regret.

Like all the effort that feels like it was lacking in Minthara's development after Act 1 feels like it was given toward all the work these types of over-compensating changes required; making Wyll boring, making Shadowheart less of a meany, etc.