If you consider Astarion's story in the context of the wider game, particularly the companion stories, then the themes and ideas at play become a lot more obvious, I find. The companions start out with beliefs and ambitions that they hold, and that will lead them down a dark path if they don't see the mistake of their beliefs and change. Lae'zel and Shadowheart's paths seem to be the most obvious in this regard. I think that everything being all rosy in AA's path goes against the themes present within the rest of the game and actually end up contradicting them.
I actually find this spin on the companion narrative to be poorly presented, boring and insulting to the characters. They basicly turned all companions into bumbling idiots who supposedly don't know what they need, they're not adults who should think for themselves but instead need a messiah Tav to guide them and tell them how they should live their lives, because apparently Tav knows best and is the greatest life coach.
What about Wyll? He believed in self-sacrifices and ended up with horns. If his father is not saved he remains a monster hunter. If he's helped with Ansur then he chooses to keep playing a hero in Avernus. The only way to really tell him what to do is to free himself from the pact and to become the Duke. So following this logic of Tav having to dissuade everyone for the most optimal results, is that his best outcome then?
To your first point, this is a crpg and what you describe is something that's present in most crpgs I can think of. It's a consequence of this being a game, with a main character that is expected to be able to influence their party members. Our character is the main character, the one capable of influencing the story the most, the character with the most true agency. Furthermore the companions aren't bumbling fools. They're people in difficult situations who need support to help them get to the right path. Everyone finds themselves in those situations sometimes. Most people will be in that situation several times throughout their lives, even when they're adults. This is a game and a story, characters have to have arcs. If they start out knowing what they need and then never needing to change their beliefs or learn new things or gain new insights about themselves, then they would be boring characters.
Regarding Wyll, the logic isn't that Tav needs to dissuade them. The logic is that they have beliefs that they need to change to become the best versions of themselves. Wyll (in my opinion, I could always be wrong) starts out the plot believing that he's able to be an uncomplicated hero even despite his pact, that things are black and white. What he has to learn is that things aren't black and white, that he has to reexamine himself and his methods if he wants to be the hero he tries to be. Tav is able to influence and guide Wyll's and the party as a whole's arcs because people like their crpgs to be interactive and to present them with choices. And if the best outcome for every companion was to simply do nothing and let them make all the right decisions, that's less interesting to play. Unless the game is specifically trying to subvert that norm and make a point. Frankly though, Wyll's arc is kind of muddy as a result of his rewrites. Same goes with Karlach. Her quest is just to find a couple lumps of metal, talk to an npc and then just bring her to do a thing you were probably already going to do. Technically her arc seems to be about taking agency over her own life, but the stuff leading up to it is... sketchy as far as developing that idea and I think her story only works at all because of the brilliant performance.
Originally Posted by Zayir
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I don't think it's indicative of anything. Somebody asked him about the Astarion scene and he admitted he didn't have anything to do with it but he thought it was fine. What else would you expect in that situation? He probably said that to reflexively defend his colleagues who did work on it. There's nothing to read into this exchange, I feel.
Well, you didn't understand what I was trying to say with it - whatever the reason, but it's all right. I will not comment it further.
If I misunderstood you then I appologize. We can let the issue lie, no problem.
To your first point, this is a crpg and what you describe is something that's present in most crpgs I can think of. It's a consequence of this being a game, with a main character that is expected to be able to influence their party members. Our character is the main character, the one capable of influencing the story the most, the character with the most true agency. Furthermore the companions aren't bumbling fools. They're people in difficult situations who need support to help them get to the right path. Everyone finds themselves in those situations sometimes. Most people will be in that situation several times throughout their lives, even when they're adults. This is a game and a story, characters have to have arcs. If they start out knowing what they need and then never needing to change their beliefs or learn new things or gain new insights about themselves, then they would be boring characters. (...) And if the best outcome for every companion was to simply do nothing and let them make all the right decisions, that's less interesting to play.
If every single one of them needs to be persuaded or guided into a specific path that's considered to be the right one, then that's a poor rpg. There are no shades, no nuance, it's either this or failure. That's boring. You will never want to play a different way if you only have one way that is "good".
When it comes to charas, take Mass Effect for example:
Wrex - has certain strong ideas about the world, you can help him with his family armour, he considers you his friend eventually after growing to trust you, but his views don't really change much, he still does what he thinks is best for him. You see him thriving as a Warlord on his home planet in the second game. He didn't need fixing, he needed help. Thane - he needed help to save his son from following in his footsteps and getting himself into trouble, he was on a suicidal mission but then starts wanting to live again after finding companionship. He also didn't need fixing, he needed help. Tali - a young engineer who needs you to help her find an artifact to finish her pilgrimage, which is a rite of passage into adulthood. She sees more of the world travelling with you, grows into someone who fosters alliances and could even be a great politician one day. She didn't need fixing, she needed help.
They all grow as characters, they have a story and their own agenda, it's not boring, your goals are aligned, you're their helper, not their saviour.
In BG3 however, the characters are presented as "faulty" and clueless, you're accidentally bound to each other and then you have to fix them to "improve" them and their lives, instead of just being supportive.
This method of presentation reduces the value of roleplay and options and instead we receive a repeated, contrived story where you are shown as being "better" and more "knowledgeable" than the others.
To be fair, and this is my own take on things, there's the type of game it is, the format, yes. And, also, for most of the companions there seem to be strong undertones of having been negatively influenced and molded, worse even, and finding and identity for themselves back. As Tav or Durge, roleplaying, to me there's kind of that dynamic too, how I want to define my character and interact with the companions. I like the game in that way. Do I sometimes (or maybe more one of my characters) feel like they're like my bunch of kids ? It can happen. And yes, maybe a few things could be better here and there. But I think they have depth and can be assertive, surprising sometimes. It might be my own personal experiences and biases talking, but it's still a good gaming experience to me in that regard.
On August 11 with hotfix 3 a huge chunk of the Narrator's words were removed, when after refusing the ritual the camera went up we saw the whole circle and Astarion sobbing and the Narrator saying "- you chose your fate to forever remain a pathetic spawn forced to hide in the shadows until the end of time, you gave up the only opportunity to become someone to change yourself, but was it worth it?".
Do you have a source for this? I haven't seen anyone mention it and the earliest recording of it on youtube is from the 9th of August, and the narrator says nothing like this. Is this if you play as Astarion? Could this be the scene you're talking about? (At 1:52)
but you can see the editing and the fact that part of the video is cut off? We don't have a piece where Astarion cries falling to his knees and the gluing is visible... Such a video is just not serious.
If every single one of them needs to be persuaded or guided into a specific path that's considered to be the right one, then that's a poor rpg. There are no shades, no nuance, it's either this or failure. That's boring. You will never want to play a different way if you only have one way that is "good".
Firstly, one of the major themes in the game is change and transformation. Origin characters go through significant changes in opinion, religion, and alliance. The game also provides opportunities for both Tav and Durge to embody this theme. We also encounter Balduran, who underwent a major change both physically and morally. If you do not engage with the game's narrative, you are missing out on a crucial element of game experience.
Secondly, you are factually incorrect. Not every individual needs to be guided or persuaded. Shadowheart is challenging to keep on the DJ path, Lae'zel changes sides independently after discovering the truth and seeing evidence, and Gale reacts based on the assurance provided by the player. You literally just have to be supportive of them. You don't fix any of them yourself, they fix themselves if you support them on their paths.
My only problem is that none of the companions supported ME when I was a durge! Where was my pep talk from my companions telling me to be true to myself? Everyone just stood there staring when I accepted Bhaal's gift. I see how it is, guys.
Firstly, one of the major themes in the game is change and transformation. Origin characters go through significant changes in opinion, religion, and alliance. The game also provides opportunities for both Tav and Durge to embody this theme. We also encounter Balduran, who underwent a major change both physically and morally. If you do not engage with the game's narrative, you are missing out on a crucial element of game experience.
Strongly agree.
Rebirth is baked into the narrative. We see it in the threat of illithid transformation. We see it in the hyena giving way to make room for the gnoll.
Not every individual needs to be guided or persuaded. Shadowheart is challenging to keep on the DJ path, Lae'zel changes sides independently after discovering the truth and seeing evidence, and Gale reacts based on the assurance provided by the player. You literally just have to be supportive of them. You don't fix any of them yourself, they fix themselves if you support them on their paths.
Sort of. I've not seen the code but I believe that if you don't' have enough trust for SH to share the memory she will kill the nightsong. And Selunites have an easy way to persuade her to become a DJ. Selunites can tell Shadowheart to spare the nightsong so Shadowheart can turn away from her wretched goddess. Then she always kills the nightsong.
On August 11 with hotfix 3 a huge chunk of the Narrator's words were removed, when after refusing the ritual the camera went up we saw the whole circle and Astarion sobbing and the Narrator saying "- you chose your fate to forever remain a pathetic spawn forced to hide in the shadows until the end of time, you gave up the only opportunity to become someone to change yourself, but was it worth it?".
Can you provide a source for this claim?
Even the earliest available game files do not contain a line similar to this. The only line that resembles this is the narrator's "You see your beloved standing on the precipice. On one side is untold power, at the cost of seven thousand souls. On the other side, vulnerability and weakness. But perhaps redemption as well.
On August 11 with hotfix 3 a huge chunk of the Narrator's words were removed, when after refusing the ritual the camera went up we saw the whole circle and Astarion sobbing and the Narrator saying "- you chose your fate to forever remain a pathetic spawn forced to hide in the shadows until the end of time, you gave up the only opportunity to become someone to change yourself, but was it worth it?".
Can you provide a source for this claim?
Even the earliest available game files do not contain a line similar to this. The only line that resembles this is the narrator's "You see your beloved standing on the precipice. On one side is untold power, at the cost of seven thousand souls. On the other side, vulnerability and weakness. But perhaps redemption as well.
I don't have a release version of the game, because I don't use non-licensed versions of games, so I can't roll back and get to the old cutscene. And I couldn't even imagine that the RELEASE version would be constantly changed in the storyline.
I have a question here against the background of all the arguments: how does SPAWN Astarion become an Ascended VAMPIRE if the ritual itself is for True Vampires? Astarion does not drink Cazador's blood, and technically he is a spawn, the ritual does not turn him into a true vampire. The ritual transforms only a true vampire into an ascended vampire...
Just to address the topic of the thread, the game offers limited roleplaying options and heavily forces emotions and facial expressions to Tav/Durge. The Astarion kisses are not the only instances where Tav/Durge reacts in a way, which could be different the player's desired roleplaying experience.
Astarion's story is not subtle, as the game has been hinting at the Ascended route and the progression of the romantic relationship since act 1. The narrative clearly outlines the abusive nature of the vampire and the spawn dynamic, repeatedly making it evident.
An evil-aligned Tav/Durge finding themselves in an abusive situation due to their own arrogance reflects the game's themes and offers interesting insight into the nature of abuse. It also mirrors Astarion's own journey and past, contributing significantly to the narrative.
Considering the numerous discussions and threads about Ascended Astarion on this forum and his character development, it is not surprising that Larian decided to include facial expressions and clarify the relationship. The addition of the freedom discussion in the epilogue shows their commitment to maintaining narrative consistency.
To your first point, this is a crpg and what you describe is something that's present in most crpgs I can think of. It's a consequence of this being a game, with a main character that is expected to be able to influence their party members. Our character is the main character, the one capable of influencing the story the most, the character with the most true agency. Furthermore the companions aren't bumbling fools. They're people in difficult situations who need support to help them get to the right path. Everyone finds themselves in those situations sometimes. Most people will be in that situation several times throughout their lives, even when they're adults. This is a game and a story, characters have to have arcs. If they start out knowing what they need and then never needing to change their beliefs or learn new things or gain new insights about themselves, then they would be boring characters. (...) And if the best outcome for every companion was to simply do nothing and let them make all the right decisions, that's less interesting to play.
If every single one of them needs to be persuaded or guided into a specific path that's considered to be the right one, then that's a poor rpg. There are no shades, no nuance, it's either this or failure. That's boring. You will never want to play a different way if you only have one way that is "good".
When it comes to charas, take Mass Effect for example:
Wrex - has certain strong ideas about the world, you can help him with his family armour, he considers you his friend eventually after growing to trust you, but his views don't really change much, he still does what he thinks is best for him. You see him thriving as a Warlord on his home planet in the second game. He didn't need fixing, he needed help. Thane - he needed help to save his son from following in his footsteps and getting himself into trouble, he was on a suicidal mission but then starts wanting to live again after finding companionship. He also didn't need fixing, he needed help. Tali - a young engineer who needs you to help her find an artifact to finish her pilgrimage, which is a rite of passage into adulthood. She sees more of the world travelling with you, grows into someone who fosters alliances and could even be a great politician one day. She didn't need fixing, she needed help.
They all grow as characters, they have a story and their own agenda, it's not boring, your goals are aligned, you're their helper, not their saviour.
In BG3 however, the characters are presented as "faulty" and clueless, you're accidentally bound to each other and then you have to fix them to "improve" them and their lives, instead of just being supportive.
This method of presentation reduces the value of roleplay and options and instead we receive a repeated, contrived story where you are shown as being "better" and more "knowledgeable" than the others.
I see what you're saying, but nothing you've said actually goes against my original point regarding Astarion. Because all those characters you listed still had arcs and still needed to learn lessons in order to change and grow, regardless of how much the main character influences those lessons. My original point was that an Astarion who ascends doesn't learn anything. He starts out believing that he needs power, and that once he has power he will have the right to do whatever he wants to whoever he wants. And then he gets that power and behaves exactly like how he always wanted to. To use one of your exampls as a comparison, it would be like if Tali started the first game wanting to be a politician, having the exact same beliefs and opinions she would hold in the third game, and she joined up with Shepard and the only thing Shepard contributed was that Tali helping against the Reapers boosted her reputation enough kickstart her political career.
I have a question here against the background of all the arguments: how does SPAWN Astarion become an Ascended VAMPIRE if the ritual itself is for True Vampires? Astarion does not drink Cazador's blood, and technically he is a spawn, the ritual does not turn him into a true vampire. The ritual transforms only a true vampire into an ascended vampire...
The ritual sacrifices whoever is in the sacrificial places, with the appropriate scars from the contract. The one holding the staff, then ascends with the sacrifice of 7007 souls as tribute. He is a new monster, not bound to Mephisto, but created anew.
Last edited by DarkAngelBeckons; 17/03/2407:32 PM.
To your first point, this is a crpg and what you describe is something that's present in most crpgs I can think of. It's a consequence of this being a game, with a main character that is expected to be able to influence their party members. Our character is the main character, the one capable of influencing the story the most, the character with the most true agency. Furthermore the companions aren't bumbling fools. They're people in difficult situations who need support to help them get to the right path. Everyone finds themselves in those situations sometimes. Most people will be in that situation several times throughout their lives, even when they're adults. This is a game and a story, characters have to have arcs. If they start out knowing what they need and then never needing to change their beliefs or learn new things or gain new insights about themselves, then they would be boring characters. (...) And if the best outcome for every companion was to simply do nothing and let them make all the right decisions, that's less interesting to play.
If every single one of them needs to be persuaded or guided into a specific path that's considered to be the right one, then that's a poor rpg. There are no shades, no nuance, it's either this or failure. That's boring. You will never want to play a different way if you only have one way that is "good".
When it comes to charas, take Mass Effect for example:
Wrex - has certain strong ideas about the world, you can help him with his family armour, he considers you his friend eventually after growing to trust you, but his views don't really change much, he still does what he thinks is best for him. You see him thriving as a Warlord on his home planet in the second game. He didn't need fixing, he needed help. Thane - he needed help to save his son from following in his footsteps and getting himself into trouble, he was on a suicidal mission but then starts wanting to live again after finding companionship. He also didn't need fixing, he needed help. Tali - a young engineer who needs you to help her find an artifact to finish her pilgrimage, which is a rite of passage into adulthood. She sees more of the world travelling with you, grows into someone who fosters alliances and could even be a great politician one day. She didn't need fixing, she needed help.
They all grow as characters, they have a story and their own agenda, it's not boring, your goals are aligned, you're their helper, not their saviour.
In BG3 however, the characters are presented as "faulty" and clueless, you're accidentally bound to each other and then you have to fix them to "improve" them and their lives, instead of just being supportive.
This method of presentation reduces the value of roleplay and options and instead we receive a repeated, contrived story where you are shown as being "better" and more "knowledgeable" than the others.
I see what you're saying, but nothing you've said actually goes against my original point regarding Astarion. Because all those characters you listed still had arcs and still needed to learn lessons in order to change and grow, regardless of how much the main character influences those lessons. My original point was that an Astarion who ascends doesn't learn anything. He starts out believing that he needs power, and that once he has power he will have the right to do whatever he wants to whoever he wants. And then he gets that power and behaves exactly like how he always wanted to. To use one of your exampls as a comparison, it would be like if Tali started the first game wanting to be a politician, having the exact same beliefs and opinions she would hold in the third game, and she joined up with Shepard and the only thing Shepard contributed was that Tali helping against the Reapers boosted her reputation enough kickstart her political career.
I just feel like the idea that "AA didn't learn anything, you only have one shot at healing trauma, and if you miss the boat, it's gone forever and you become an unthinking, 1D no-no man forever" is just so flat.
Healing is multi-faceted. You don't 'miss the healing train' and never get to heal ever again.
BUT I will say, the story does show AA can still learn. If you do the threesome with the drow twins, he stares off into the distance, unhappy and dissociated afterward. It seems like that's a begrudgingly learned lesson that being "all powerful TM" doesn't magically absolve you of trauma. He clearly has an unhappy reaction afterward. He's reflecting on something.
I would assume so. Would make for an interesting Strahd / Soth romance. And I think it would be good story because it would be a tragic one (as was the story of those two). And incidentally it would have the aspect I want to preserve in Astarian's story. A sense that a pursuit of power comes at a cost.
This story would be really interesting, I've been wanting to find out for a long time if such a beautiful version of the oath-breaking is possible, because it would be a shame to take a paladin for nothing - I don't like to play religious characters, and to stay a paladin after Ascension and then look for a way to break the oath on an empty place through some petty atrocity is already nonsense, not a roleplay. Only in what way would it be tragic (well, if patch 6 doesn't fix it, then of course it would be tragic, but no oath is needed there, an atheist would be fine too)? Dramatic in a good sense - yes, the story of changing the worldview, liberation from the chains of the divine will, finding a much more valuable and strong feeling than, for example, the religion imposed from childhood, is a good story. And power has nothing to do with it either. You want to take the power if you play for three days before the finale with the new patch - when due to the player's depression and psychosis the character of Tav breaks from chaotic-neutral to chaotic-evil, and, of course, you can't do without the destructive finale with "In my name". And with the Ascension ritual - what do I care about power and might - Astarion is finally becoming truly free and can have all the pleasures of life - the sun (remember the scene from Act 1, how important that is to him), he is no longer hungry, and just take him to the mirror and see how happy he is with his reflection! And he is beautiful in his newfound confidence. Betraying a deity for the sake of it is an additional plot "cherry on the cake", I would have liked more obstacles to achieve the goal. Plot-driven, logical obstacles, not a truly depressing traumatizing animation that can't be overcome or defeated by any means!
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
People who are really into guns are terrified. They always have some fantasy about what they will do when that guy breaks into the house and does (terrible thing) to (insert: wife / kids / gold stashed under floorboards). Later I moved to another country were getting gun was very, very difficult. It was strange how less afraid people were. No stories about "what they were going to do when", fewer locked doors, more people mingling on streets after dark . . . BFG = Big Fear Guy IMO
I meant the BFG as a collective image of "power", as gamer jargon that can be applied to the magical world too. And "people who were less afraid" - does the world reject them as Astarion? No, they fit perfectly into its structure. Astarion can't physically exist like normal people in this world. Not only does he never see the sun, there's also hunger - he needs to kill to survive. And when applied to reality, dear fans of dramatic/traumatic horror movies are unlikely to have any idea what hunger really is. I myself only know the tolerable version of it, the one that needs to be experienced periodically to keep myself in shape, and it's a feeling I can live with, but it obviously doesn't make me happier, especially when I imagine having to experience it all the time. But I had a chance to talk to a man who had a hard experience of real hunger in his life, and he said where he would send any "psychologist" who would try to convince him that there are more important things than this. The World of Light is an enemy that wants to nail Astarion to the sidewalk to slowly and painfully decay for the edification of other spawn like him. Someone else, maybe, but Astarion and I can't do without the BFG to successfully coexist with the world. And by the way, why doesn't Jaheira become our enemy after Astarion ascended? Minsk at the same time, and the other good companions could be treated worse by the Tav themselves. It would be an interesting and realistic "payback for evil". As it is, everyone literally licks the protagonist, even Jaheira (considering she doesn't like Astarion, this attitude towards Tav makes Jaheira look extremely stupid). But no - there will be no realism, we need sadism, sudden appearing and disappearing unknown to science psychiatric disease (with amnesia) in Astarion, and the face of a frightened victim in Tav. The first time - okay, the beloved Astarion is sick, I can be disturbed about it. But not every time! Tav should be looking for the source of the curse, a cure, a psychiatrist (if there are such on Faerûn), not shaking like a chicken, once again kneeling on their knees. It doesn't work like that!
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Yes, he realizes that he needs to depend on others and that's not a bad thing. Not all relationships are based on power exchanges, some sorts of fellowships can empower all who join.
No thanks. The possibility of expanding my Tav's emotional spectrum by adding such dramatic emotions as feelings of powerlessness, rage, guilt and hatred for everyone who will walk around smiling at the sun after the heroic finale is not at all gratifying. Can I stay with the limited scope for mental torment? Without traumatizing content for not wanting to suffer as the dramatic/traumatic novella dictates? And Astarion feels bad. He's depressed, no previous playfulness - I'll only agree to this path if some pharmaceutical company offers to test a new antidepressant on me - to see if it works.
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
I think it's the completion of the story arc.
What about the romantic epilogue? Isn't that the end of the storyline? After the ritual, by the way, the player still has to run around the whole third act with new kisses from sadistic/traumatic production!
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
I'm not contesting that view of an idealized D/s relationship but I don't think patch 6 changed things, it just made the themes of the story clearer. And yes it is a problem with cinematics that they make it harder to maintain head cannon.
On the topic of D/s - may I suggest you read this post by Seramina in the thread. Post ?937262
I am certainly not an expert on D/s, after all, I met this topic for the first time in the game, and it was an unusual and interesting experience, but in order to distinguish D/s from sadism, believe me, a little theoretical knowledge is enough. Read the "Astarion romance improvements" thread, this thread from the beginning - you will find a lot of clear and clear explanations, with pictures, etc., and you definitely won't confuse D/s with the traumatizing content that is now in the game anymore. And maybe, too, you'll see that it's the cinematics, not the players, that have the head cannon problems.
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
And I do have head cannon! I do truly believe that killing all the spawn is the best of the bad options and a good-aligned act. The authors of the story disagreed.
You weren't traumatized by it. You will get over it and be able to live with it, I'm sure.
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
But, for all my dislike of Larian's mangling of DnD lore I really liked this story. It's one of the best in the game.
Can I clarify, did you as an observer on the video enjoy it? Or do you play like that yourself and enjoy it?
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Quote
Evil lovers, of course, have a reason to prevent him from performing the ritual - that reason is very simple - the desire to be a dominant and abuser themselves.
True. It could help a tav control Astarian. And there a few variants of "take the astral tadpole" along those lines.
One post back...
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
But even evil lovers have a reason to prevent him from completing the ritual: they want Astarian to conquer his fear by means of a loving relationship between equal partners.
I appreciate the joke. The trolling, too. But still, what do you do with Astarion? Controlling or curing fears? Uh, all in one package. Okay, I get it.
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Yes I do. I think anyone who doubts that Astarian is ruled by fear you should load a save, select those options and see Astarian's reaction. Then reload. Because that's not nice
I saw that reaction. But I can do it again, no problem. I have no doubt now that everything someone once gossiped about me to someone else is controlling me. That's really not good.
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
He has a desire to create coven, shroud the lands in mist, and create house full of spawn. He's Vellioth 3.0 And the mention of mists makes me think the mists of Ravenloft will claim him soon . . .
Nice head cannon, I don't see that very often. What's the mists of Ravenloft coming out in the add-on? When is it coming out?
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
If we're talking in terms of what a player deserves and should be able to do, that's a very different discussion which I'm happy to have. I think you make a good point, but I will also say that the game shouldn't have to account for everything every player would want to the detriment of the themes of the game. A good game (like PoE) can have a lot of flexibility in how events come off and can be read, but that's not the case in ever game, that goes for BG3 too. If you consider Astarion's story in the context of the wider game, particularly the companion stories, then the themes and ideas at play become a lot more obvious, I find. The companions start out with beliefs and ambitions that they hold, and that will lead them down a dark path if they don't see the mistake of their beliefs and change. Lae'zel and Shadowheart's paths seem to be the most obvious in this regard. I think that everything being all rosy in AA's path goes against the themes present within the rest of the game and actually end up contradicting them.
All that being said, I've come out already in support of changing the new kiss, because it's harming players and it doesn't make any sense for its purpose in the game; being a repeatable action that will mainly take place at a point before the fullness of Astarion's inevitable villain turn would become apparent and will thus clash with other events in the game. As for the question of encountering triggering content, I am fortunate enough that I don't have any trauma triggers to worry about, but if you're talking about if I personally would call the game a good game in that scenario, I probably wouldn't. It might still be a good game, but I doubt I would call it such.
Okay, I see your point. In general, I'm much more concerned specifically about the traumatizing content of kissing, because it hurts real people in the real world, than I am about how much Astarion is considered a villain. I had a very happy playthrough with the fifth patch, and generally speaking, after the ritual, the game in no way required the player to do any other "evil" things. Having done the one necessary "evil" thing, I happily ran around the sunny city with Astarion, happily completed the rest of the quests as best I could, and had a nice happy epilogue and party and no "full on inevitable villain turn". Astarion is wonderfully distracted from his invading plans in the epilogue, and happily agrees to travel with Tav to enjoy all the pleasures of the world. I just don't play to have ideas shoved in my face, most games make me want to do good deeds, and that comes naturally - BG3 is somewhat not such a game, and a more evil playthrough to me seems far more desirable and realistic. Everyone has their own vision and opinion, I just wouldn't want to see one vision rigidly enforced as "mainstream" and another vision suppressed and penalized.
Originally Posted by Anska
You can totally say why you don't like something and why it hurts you, I have also said why I don't like the new A!Astarion kisses. But when you start making up wild stories about how the writers and the company are going to great lengths only to make you miserable, and perpetuate these stories as facts, it is not ok. It's what bullies and rumour-mongers do. It is also why multiple warnings were issued in various kiss-related threads.
If the game didn't have this bullying, then the players wouldn't be interested in understanding the motivations for such bullying either. Don't torture the players - and you won't have to gag anyone, there simply won't be a reason to do so. No other RPG has this, no other gaming community has "moralizing bullying". It's not normal. And why was this traumatizing content, if it's so necessary, added without warning, without any consideration for players' feelings? And for what purpose?
Originally Posted by Anska
What is also not ok is demanding greatest care and attention for your own feelings, traumas and triggers while treating those of other people as wrong and negligible.
Removing sadistic content and allowing AA players to play in peace is not a requirement for maximum care. I understand that it would be great if we all just quit the game, marked Larian for ourselves with a "black mark" and Astarion would only have one burning spawn path, but we've invested too much of our emotions, feelings and time into the game to just take a bullying attitude. Someone else treats other people's feelings as wrong and insignificant, and it's clearly not Ascended fans. I've never gone into UA-related threads and tried to preach there, nor have I gone into the threads of fans of characters I don't like with my opinions. When I do, it will be safe to say I don't respect other people's feelings
Yet this does not mean that he "forgets" his time through the entire adventure with Tav. He does not have to be abusive either. He is a different if but that does not mean that he changes his entire personality either. There are more ways than just wanting to believe he didn't "learn" things due to the ritual. That doesn't mean that he forgot the journey either. He just has more power. He does not have to be written into only "this" type of corner either. Evii doesn't have to be "bad" either. There can be a possibility that he loves Tav as the one person who trusts him and sticks by him without making the story turn into a trope of abuse. The "abuse" part of it, is hurting people in real life, instead of the game being enjoyed by people who are playing. So we can ask/request something different just like anyone else. If Larian, regardless of everyone's own personal head canon & how each and every one person can interpret the story differently, chooses to stick with the current story, then fine. It was done poorly due to it changed well after release into something more sinister. Yet that will also change how the REAL world looks at a company who did this without listening to feedback from players who played this part of the path. Yet, people want to shame and blame the players, when they try to respectfully ask for them to think about it hurt people (romance specifically) in real life instead of getting enjoyment out of the game that they had prior to patch 6. So, if you are happy with the story, please drop your comment and move on. Otherwise, for those who feel that they were pushed into this without much choice, whether it be the kisses, the dialogue, the lore (all of this shows how so many people perceive the story differently), that maybe Larian should listen to those who take issue with whichever part, take away choices due to these issues, what have you, so the question can then be pondered. It is simple as that. Be respectful that everyone has an opinion and it may not be yours, but after all, if you are enjoying the game as is, then why bother pushing those that want to suggest something? A lot of us love the game, until something in it takes a nasty turn that was not expected. So, let Larian decide but KNOW that they should be able to ask just as much as anyone else who likes or dislikes the part where something changed. Please allow those people to be heard as well, instead of arguing with them their opinion is wrong. If you don't agree, go make a forum and state otherwise. But blocking others requests just to prove a point won't make anyone change their mind about a thing in the story you don't play the path in. Let the STUDIO decide instead. Thank you.
Nice head cannon, I don't see that very often. What's the mists of Ravenloft coming out in the add-on? When is it coming out? smile
Ravenloft if my headcannon, yes. But shrouding the lands in mist is one of his lines. Could be an expansion . . .
To answer another of your questions I've travelled with Astarian both as a friend, an enemy, a romantic partner and as a fling before I chose Lae'zel. When you play honor mode you restart often Ascending was never an option, both as a friend and lover I knew it would destroy him. And I think AA, Vlaakith-loyalist Lae'zel, God-Gale, and Dark Justiciar Shadowheart are destroyed by their lovers inability to read between the lines, see past the denial and deception and encourage them to become their best selves.
Not trolling. Truthfully. Sincerely. I just like discussing this game and I think this is one of the strongest stories in it.
Ascending was never an option, both as a friend and lover I knew it would destroy him. And I think AA, Vlaakith-loyalist Lae'zel, God-Gale, and Dark Justiciar Shadowheart are destroyed by their lovers inability to read between the lines, see past the denial and deception and encourage them to become their best selves.