Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion

No one would agree to such humiliation, even with an illithid larva in their head. If the new authors wanted the player to immediately break off the romance after the first "kiss" with AA, then bravo! The goal has been achieved. The new authors killed the novel with AA. BioWare have never allowed themselves to do this.

I have a few thoughts, if you will indulge me.

Although analyzing what happens on both paths in terms of the overall narrative is fair it feels a bit like meta-gaming. I mean this is the sense that each arc is separate, and cannot be experienced simultaneously. Which, to me, leaves space to tell different, independent stories on each route. Rejecting the Ritual can absolutely be a story about breaking the cycle of abuse, and that can be accomplished regardless of what happens in the alternate timeline. I don’t think they necessarily need to be perfectly complementary. If anything, this being a video game and not a novel I think there is space for this ‘choose your own adventure’ style of narrative divergence. Which is to say, I don’t feel that having happy Tav on an Ascension path lessens the story being told on a completely separate branch.

I think the fact that AA becomes something other than a Vampire Lord has some bearing on whether he is destined to repeat the cycle of abuse. Larian left the question of what it means to be a living vampire very open. While it could mean he’s destined to go on as those before him, I’d say it’s equally plausible that he won’t. If what drove Cazador to madness and sadism was centuries of being tormented by his vampiric banes (thirst, etc) then there’s no reason to think AA will mirror him in this since he’s free of those downsides. AA is just not cursed with vampirism in the same way as his predecessors.

This is the point.
I personally see the story as an arc to the beginning, a noble, with power, high elf from Baldur's Gate, with even more powers, since the ritual makes him as written and italicized "alive", very possibly including mortal senses.

Ascended Astarion is a monster, and I imagine that truth is an important bit of canon for any future expansions or product releases by WotC.

These characters don't exist in a vacuum. They are now a big part of the Forgotten Realms setting. The characters must be shown for what they are.

Tav is a mortal, sooner or later he will die, and spawn Astarion will live forever and every day he loses his "humanity" according to the law of the DnD, since you mention Forgotten Realms. Spawns are monsters without emotions and real feelings, obsessed with bloodlust... Their nature is irreversible. Unlike AA , who gained the feelings and desires of a mortal . So who's the monster after that?
Astarion spawn, according to your own words, if the characters need to be shown as they are, there should be no desires at all except bloodlust. However, this was exactly what happened in the epilogue for origin spawn, when he was dancing madly about to drink to the last drop of some aristocrat in a cave.

My guess is that the spawn lore will change appropriately when the newest DnD version comes out, giving spawn more personality.

Regardless, I'm not sure what you're arguing. You're saying that you think spawn Astarion is a monster? And somehow that means ascended Astarion is not a monster?

Claiming that Ascended Astarion is not evil or a monster is a conversational circle I don't think it's worth going around. You're certainly entitled to believe that, but to my way of thinking, it's like if someone came up to me and said water isn't wet. At some point, it's not even worth having the conversation. I just don't know how to reply to that viewpoint.

Then provide me with a proof that spawns possess: "empathy, human feelings, tenderness, care and affection" according to the canon of DnD 5, the edition on which BG3 was created and on which it is based. From the Bestiary, the Book of the Master and the history of Strahd. Then, we will discuss what a "nice and soft cat spawn Astarion" is.
Your fantasies about the "new edition" are your fantasies. I might as well prove that Astarion has actually always been a true vampire and just tricked Tav,, because during the ritual he does not drink Cazador's blood, as well as because all the spawn are connected to him in some "magical" way, and he knows after the "first" bite of Tav that on in the morning, my head will stop hurting and nothing terrible will happen.

I think the point being made is that any DnD lore that would suggest that AA is a monster would apply equally to spawn Astarion. So, if the lore is the only criteria, then spawn Astarion should be portrayed as an abusive, depressed, resentful monster.

However, DnD lore is clearly not a factor in how spawn Astarion is presented. Which means it should not be a factor in how AA is presented.

You keep asserting it, but I am curious as to what makes AA a monster in your eyes? You are adamant that he is, but I would appreciate hearing the argument for it.

Shrug. Again, I'm not sure what to tell you other than I believe water is wet.

Honestly, I'm not even sure what you're saying.

Spawn Astarion in Forgotten Realms and according to DnD canon is also a monster, since he's a vampire spawn and gets a high from killing, but BG3 with his hugs doesn't really care about that.

Tav says "sorry I disappeared, didn't mean to leave you like that" after Tav was scared and didn't like AA's kisses "showing the truth" (done as fanservice love flies in the air in a tweet with the phrase "on. your. knees") Added in the same 6 patch:
Must be delete then.

So if he's a monster-abuser then Tav shouldn't have any positive answers at all (it's all here for now), if the plot implies that Tav was abused for 6 months.

If AA is such a monster, but the epilogue should be rewritten, correspond "important bit of canon".

To clarify this better, you're not happy with any romance with Astarion. So the romantic epilogue with the spawn Astarion must also disappear from reality. Perhaps with AA the most, but in general all romance Astarion is not pleasant to you and makes you, probably, unwellness?
Judging by that sentence:

I'm just asking for proof that spawns have human feelings, sympathy and can love like ordinary mortals from the official editions of DnD 5 edition on which the game was created. I am not interested in your fantasy about the 6th, 7th and 167 editions of the DnD.

At no point did I say DnD lore required Ascended Astarion to be an evil monster. I said the game clearly portrays Ascended Astarion as an evil monster.

And that must become canon for the Forgotten Realms setting. I'm not talking about canon in the sense of some generic monster manual entry. I'm talking about canon as a character in the setting who has a personality and presence.

If someone is arguing that Ascended Astarion is *not* presented as an evil monster in the game, then that's the conversation I don't think is worth having. To me, as I mentioned above, it's like someone telling me water isn't wet. Sure, I accept that you may believe that. But I find the position ludicrous enough that I'm not convinced it's worth responding to.

Ludicrous in the way that if someone told me grass wasn't green, I'd laugh and move on, accepting that we clearly see the world differently.

!!!No one is asking to change Astarion's story!!!
I wrote this message in general, but now I’ll address it to you.
Answer me. What is happening for you, if Tav's face to be neutral or enjoyable, like before the patch 6?
"Before the 6th patch, there were no Tav's horror faces. There were ordinary kisses, satisfied ones. And for those who saw this story about control, the story was still perceived as about abuse, right? And most likely you don’t choose AAstarion for a romantic interest, and if you do, you break up with him because you feel how he has changed, controls Tav, and you don’t want to put up with it. Whatever way you play it, I respect it.
But what will change for you if Tav's neutral or satisfied face is returned, for those who play AAstarion and completely trust him, Tav is obedient of his own free will. And before the 6th patch, everyone could imagine their story, but because of the fear on their face, the scales swung towards Astarion the abuser. For you, these facial expressions mean nothing, because you already see him as toxic, and will continue to do so in any case, but for us, who chose AAstarion, who see Astarion in a different light, this is critically important. Our game is trampled.
We can control the Absolute together, but we can’t kiss Astarion with our enjoy face? This is an absurdity.
Let everyone be happy, your game and Astarion's character will not suffer if Tav's faces are replaced with happy or neutral ones. In the end, AAstrion is chosen for a kiss by those who have a relationship with him and want to continue. Who wants to continue dating a person who makes you terrified? You immediately brake up with him, and then what is the point of adding the romantic line of AAstarion at all? After all, the romance with the ascended Astarion was not worked out in this way in order to humiliate the player.
I still think that there was a mistake or misunderstanding with the animation of Tav's face, because Tav's sadness when kissing the spawn is also present, for example.
There is generally no point in arguing about how we perceive Astarion, everyone will remain to their own. Everyone sees him differently, and it’s wonderful that the authors gave us such a multifaceted character. No one is asking to change Astarion, you just need to tweak Tav’s face a little when kissing and everything will be fine. Everyone will remain to their own. For those who see Astarion as an abuser, nothing will change, they will continue to see him that way, and those who see Astarion as a leader who can destroy the world, but will never harm his consort, they will also be happy.
I really believe that Larian hears us and is already working on a fix, because role-playing should be fun, not pain and stress."

Funnily enough, there's actually arguments against water being wet. Just sayin.
(The argument being that water is a liquid that wets other things, but can't bet wet itself.)

Apparently for Faerun, he's the new Evil King for DnD alignment.
Tav's answers make him not an evil monster.
Because the "Evil can't love" torp is for children's cartoons.
Though your words about Ketheric... though he skipping one fight because of his wife's name.
I get the impression that you are trying to prove that the world is only black, or only white, with no shades of gray at all.

once again, I repeat my question, provide me with an up-to-date proof, from current sources on DnD 5 edition, because it is stable and does not change until the new edition, which says that: "spawns have human feelings, deep empathy, are able to love like ordinary mortals and can always control bloodlust"
if you cannot provide such evidence, then all your words are fanon. Fanon can be anything, everyone has their own. You have your own fanon, I have my own, I do not share your fanon.
I'm not interested in listening to your fanon

I can see the impasse.

I think AA is evil, but I don’t see that as meaning one particular thing. Evil, when done well, should be as layered and nuanced as good. Every evil person is a unique individual, with different drives and desires.

Actually, my view is a bit more nuanced. I think more in terms of evil actions than evil people. AA does a monstrous thing in completing the Ritual, but I don’t think the Ritual strips him of his soul or any such. I think he remains who he was, with all of his fears, but that his dire view of the world has been confirmed. Someone he trusted, maybe even loved, just confirmed that he wasn’t enough as he was, that he needed to be more powerful to be worthy.

The question of whether, and how, ‘evil’ can love is fascinating to me. So I don’t believe that AA being evil necessarily equates to him terrorizing a romantic partner. The game portrays him rather ambiguously, to my mind. There is certainly evidence that he would/could abuse Tav but there is also evidence to the contrary. I think it was supposed to be open ended, to allow players to weave their story into the gaps.

My confusion about this is genuine. If the story was about the cycle of abuse for them in patch 5, with neutral faces, how would neutral faces again change that?

It was there pre patch. If it were like pre patch again, why would it suddenly not be there?

It's funny. It’s like Minsk in the epilogue called Astarion a monster. There is no explanation, but he is a monster. Great.

I'm a chaotic goode )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))