Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion

In the original Lord Astarion: Minsk-dude wanna fanciful (known as decadent hedonistic debauchery) get-togethers ?D

I agree with this thought of yours. I played both Spawn Astarion and Ascended Astarion alternately and appreciated both aspects of the story. And as you say, having a happy TAV in your relationship with AAstarion never felt like it took away from Astarion's overall story. I was moved to see Astarion cry after killing Cazador: I understood the message of freedom, the end of centuries of torture and abuse but this still didn't stop me from appreciating AAstarion too. I've always seen spawn Astarion and AAstarion as two sides of the same coin and I can't think of the character excluding one aspect of him.


Exactly. One thing that I have always liked about AAstarion is the ambiguity of the character and I have always appreciated this choice on the part of the authors because it allows the player to choose, it gives him space to interpret which is, in my opinion, the right thing in a role-playing game based on choices. In fact, you see that even in the dialogues with AAstarion, through the TAV you can choose whether to be happy, complicit in his evil plans, or not.


I agree with everything you wrote. Nobody is asking to change AAstarion, we are not asking to redo the kissing animations (maybe to change a little something), but, mainly, we are asking to make the TAV's face less terrifying, as it had been since the game's release until patch 5 The TAV is our character!

I don't believe we can ignore the fact that BG3 vampires and spawns are not lore accurate, and ascension is completely homebrewed.

In most literature, vampires function as a metaphor, and it is clear that Larian used the same technique. Astarion's story utilizes vampires as a metaphor for sexuality and abuse narratively.

AA becoming a monster has more to do with the journey he takes (never achieving true freedom from Cazador and living a life his past self would not be proud of) than with anything in DnD lore.

The arguments have more or less been "MY fanon should be YOUR fanon!" as I see it. When it really is about loosing player agency in a romance, something that previously was there.
With how long this has taken to be done with, I'm hoping some redo on the body language as well and not just the player face.


Hah! Minsc is so funny, I also love his comment about Astarion eating fish because they are made of "all-necks".

Theres a few circular arguments in this thread - just a few mind
For me and my role playing Astarion isn't a monster to start with, irrespective of people who played him in EA or who read some art book from EA, nothing in the game as RELEASED makes him a monster pre ascension.
I have seen mentions that he should remember his history, not sure why as his early history was removed from the game and nothing was added in to replace it, remembering a pleasant meal in a restaurant doesn't mean he remembers everything, we all have memory triggers - a piece of music does it for me and I suddenly remember something that has been long forgotten.

Nothing he did when under Cazadors control was voluntary, he was, in his own words (and nothing his siblings say or do disproves it, in fact the kidnap scene proves his point totally) totally controlled by Cazador. He was not responsible for those kids being kidnapped, or Sebastian, or anyone else that he picked up off the streets. This is not a case of a military person obeying orders and then crying that he wasn't responsible - Astarion genuinely had NO choice.

So if we, and I say again, WE chose to not ascend him he won't have changed much, sadder for having had sunshine removed from his life and having to deal with blood hunger until someone stakes him but sadder and more dependent on Tav would probably be the limit of it, he'll still be the Astarion we have known throughout the game.

But if we choose to allow his own desire to ascend to be what WE help him with, why does everyone assume his personality is going to change overnight?
Making one decision does not change someone into something they weren't before.
Does anything in your own life experience do this? Do you know anyone in real life who makes ONE decision that affects their personality so badly that they change OVERNIGHT into a partner abuser? Nope didn't think so, it doesn't happen and I speak from experience.
People get their personality from EVERYTHING in their lives not just one decision.
So its still going to be the Astarion we knew pre ascension same as it is for the spawn Astarion.

Pre patch 6 what Ascended Astarion lovers saw was the same man we knew from pre ascension but now a man freed from blood hunger (and ecstatic about it, he no longer has to take blood from anyone or anything to survive), and gaining a few quite minor new powers and becoming a slightly more assertive and happy personality. Yes he has some quite ridiculous ideas of where he is taking his life with a Tav (more choices if its a Durge) but he had those ideas pre ascension. He doesn't want Tav/Durge miserable and unhappy and goes out of his way to say as much several times. He didn't turn into a partner abuser overnight for absolutely no reason and in fact abusing Tav/Durge simply doesn't fit the character that we and non ascended fans have got to know throughout the game.

The main problem for Ascended Astarion fans is that patch 6 broke his personality and removed player choices quite comprehensively - it in no way affects anything that a player who isn't romantically attached to Ascended Astarion is ever going to see or experience, such players still have all the role playing options to view Ascended Astarion as a monster, no one and so far no patch has taken away YOUR player choice to do so. But Patch 6 removed such choice from his lovers - this is what we are complaining about.

It's a slippery slope when a game changes a personality nearly 8 months after release, what might they decide to change for other romantic partners that takes away something from your experience?

You said it. It really is unlike anything I've seen before in dev interference of gameplay. I do get that it may seem extreme to be reacting so much to just a face expression when someone have not experienced it themselves, I'm surprised how much of an impact it have had on the whole experience of the game.
I think it is mainly about dev trust, for me at least I feel the devs violated my game by putting something that feels like a lecture over my own choice. Whether that is true or not.

So I think your examination here misses a very crucial aspect of Astarion's character. He's not a monster because of his past actions, I agree he wasn't in control for those. But listen to him, see what he says and does and wants now in the game. He believes that might makes right, that having power means he can do whatever he likes to whoever he likes. And he's sadistic. He enjoys hurting people, enjoys being cruel. As other folks have pointed out, he thinks the only thing Cazador did wrong was that he inflicted all that hurt and torture upon Astarion himself. Astarion outright says that he thinks having power would mean he's well within his rights to behave like Cazador. And if he ascends, why would he change? What has happened to make him think he's wrong in those past beliefs? He's just destroyed thousands of spawn just like him to give himself more power. He quite literally steps into Cazador's place.

You are right that his personality wouldn't change overnight, but it's pretty clear what trajectory he's going down. What happens when you disagree on something that actually matters to him? He believes power means he can do whatever he wants to whoever he wants. People want to talk about realism? When, realistically, has someone like that ever actually been a good partner long term? Couples disagree. They fight even. It's normal and healthy. But he's taken away his partner's ability to do so, with only his word that he won't abuse that power. TTHe word of someone who has said repeatedly that he wants to abuse power. The kiss scene is a poor representation of that, but it's not crazy that people see him go down that route.

It's not real life. It's a video game with a story. What is this argument even about?




Tav/Durge consistently makes facial expressions throughout the entire game, from the very first minute to the last. Some of these expressions may not align with your RP. You can express dissatisfaction with all of them. Should Tav/Durge be portrayed as staring blankly into space at all times?

The "kiss" scene is a good representation of when something alien has taken over, which has their own kink or wants to destroy the enjoyment of the players. The "scenes" are not even abuse, they are more a mixture of behaving like sexual abused and a sexual deviance.

There is a hint in the Dark Urge quest that seems to be missing from the discussion
"Bhaals army will be an unsurpassable Dowry"

I'm going with Bride thing the whole bit of conversation about accepting Bhaal is quite interesting AA spoke up a few times " I hope you know what you're doing"
"Your Daddy issues are only just starting eh ?"

Does an evil lord who has complete control over his spawn question her choice ?

I am still very much on the just change Tav's face and maybe the kneeling in random areas.
I'm not asking a change to Astarion.

But the Bride thing is wholly likely in how he is written.

So a couple things about this. Do the conversations about accepting Bhaal happen after the end of the game? If so then he can't control Tav yet. But also, he could be worried about getting on the wrong side of a god. I don't know if accepting Bhaal has to happen at a specific place, but if it doesn't then in theory Durge could accept anywhere at any point. And given Durge is far more directly connected to Bhaal than just some worshipper, Astarion keeping Tav from Bhaal could reasonably illicit direct intervention. And for all Astarion's vaunted strength, he's still no god.

And I will maintain that the Bride thing is entirely a headcanon that's not present in the text of the game. Or if it's actually what's intended, then it's terrible game writing. They're vaguely hinting at an idea only super hardcore fans could possibly know. As far as discussions of the game, it's not really relevant. The dowry line actually goes against the Bride theory since how would Durge know anything about it?

The romance was written to be particularly ambiguous and balanced (the main writer said the characters have to be balanced and still have humanity) so that players can roleplay and, if they wish, enjoy this romance. The extent to which Astarion could control Tav in the future is only hinted at or said, but never shown. Also Astarion is not a true Vampire, he is ascended and called "Vampire Lord". Also Tav, if turned, will be different due to Astarion's blood (Astarion has given blood to Tav, when turning him). Astarion also nowhere sexually abuses Tav nor does he use gross violence against Tav. If this were the case, I don't think anyone would choose this romance, then they could mothball this route. I honestly don't understand why there's so much debate about whether Astarion is evil. Of course he's evil, since Act 1. There's nothing wrong with that, on the contrary, it's interesting. To be evil doesn't actually mean to be a sex offender or to abuse a partner/consort, evilness is a far more complex thing. However, sexual abuse against Tav does not take place in the romance. Even if Astarion could mind-control Tav as a spawn in the epilogue (before, it's not even possible), the emphasis here is could, that doesn't mean he would do that. We don't see that anywhere. Also, you can stay with Astarion, without being his spawn.


It seems, you haven't noticed, but the facial expressions throughout the entire game align with the given answer, if you give a positive meant answer, your Tav has a positive happy face or at least neutral. And if you give a negative answer, he has an angry or unhappy face (e.g. breakup scenes).
If a Tav ask for kiss by themselves, it's a positive thing, at least, for the majority of people and Tavs, so they always have positive and happy faces, and they shouldn't have a sad face.
You are not playing this Route and you are not seeing these scenes ingame, and still insist, it really shows colors.

Ofcourse not every expression align with my RP.. I accept it and move on, sometimes a bit annoyed, but it was only in that scene so fair enough. But this is a kiss animation where they portray my character as being violated EVERY time I want to kiss my romance, it is not fair to the player to portray Tav like that. Who makes a face like that when they kiss their boyfriend? It's just insulting.

Plus most of the other facial expressions were always there. This one was added where it used to be neutral before.

*Of course the headcanon and bad game writing, because those in charge of the game are "first year students" (No).
And there are no references in the game to it. It's the players' imaginations. And of course, Astarion's words that "you are my consort" cannot be taken seriously, he is a charlatan and a liar, he meant pet or spawn. And the reference to "bride" can only be understood by hardcore fans, because Astarion never names Tav/Durge as a spouse. Never. Not once. Or it's just a figure of speech, nothing more. AA can't control Baal's child (and Tav, too) yet there's a worm, but that rule doesn't work with kisses. With kisses, he shows true face. That's why Durge/Tav like a frightened sheep is looking at AA. An unexpected twist that an evil character became evil, ?ven with his love interest, it's normal, it always happens that way. Oh well.*

"sounds of sarcasm"

It's just good game writing so that each player can interpret differently. But okay, you know best.
Thank you for taking the time to explain)

God, let Astarion control Tav, I don’t mind at all, just make face and body language happy and that’s it. My Tav/Durge/Origins, never mind, chose this. Fans of AAstarion's romance need this, and this should be taken into account. If you don't choose to romance AAstarion, why do you care about other players' Tav faces? I just don't understand. Nothing will change in your story, they considered him a toxic and a monster, so continue.
I'm not angry. I just don’t understand this empty talk that will lead nowhere, the argument will continue, over and over again. Telling us a million times that Astarion is a monster and a manipulator will not change anything. Same with the other side. What is the purpose of proving, page after page, that Astarion is evil, that Astarion is a manipulator, that Tav is unhappy? What do you want to prove?
The main topic is that Tav's face and body language correspond to the story. The issue here is not at all about Astarion, but about our character, who acts illogically during kisses, what happened to him? I say, together with Astarion we can rule the Absolute, for example, and we will be happy with it, but a kiss causes fear? What the hell.

I just wanted to butt in since I did this very recently. The way he says these things is with a happy smile. You also have the "HAH, you're gonna sit nicely on my lap, perhaps naked, while I command our nocturne horde from my palace throne.", he doesn't seem so scared of Tav, rather delighted she is giving him a great army. But again, if you really want to I'm sure you can see it so it fits in another RP. Which is totally fine.

Thanks for the question and the kind words!

It matters because the boss would be telling to the cinematic team create a cinematic that goes against the interpretation of the writing team. Larian would be saying "becoming a vampire lord is pretty great, actually"

The structure of the cycle of abuse story starts in earnest after the encounter with the drow in moonrise. Astarian is confused because the thing she was asking for was once so easy for him he would have done it without a second thought. But after that encounter he realize that persona, the charlatan seducer, was a mask forged in the fires of Cazador's abuse; he was a tool for Cazador and Astarian wants to become something else. This starts him on a journey of becoming his own person, not someone forged by his failure of a father.

To ascend - to complete Cazador's life work - is to abandon that task. It is to become one more name on that list of vampire lords. This is why Velioth and the scroll exist - to make that point crystal clear.

And I keep saying this but I do think we do need to "metagame" this - to look at the structure of the romances, to break them apart and look at their moving parts. Just as Cazador was Astarians ersatz father so is Shar is Shadowheart's ersatz mother. Her mother wants SH to become a being with heart of shadow, no room for love, no desires for anything but Shar's endless night and the forgetting of all pains. DJ SH is very powerful - much more powerful than plain old shadowheart - but her ascension is a tragedy.

To remove the tragedy from the ascension is to change the story in a fundamental way.

So fundamental that Tav's expression wasn't added until patch 6 lol. If having these rough kisses in the game was so fundamental to understanding Ascended Astarion's story, they missed the boat by about 7 months.

Once again, the point is that the expressions underlined the themes of the story. It's like putting more coffee in the coffee cup, not like putting cream in the coffee.