Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion

They could have "added more coffee" by changing Astarion's actions. But forcing Tav's expression is more like saying "actually I think you wanted tea instead" and taking your coffee away.

Again, the way he talks about his past as magistrate sounds like he's trying to hide something. Cazador somehow remembers his childhood as a mortal and he suffered worse torture than Astarion did.


There was no tragedy, there was only potential for it. The skull of Vellioth is a cautionary tale that it can be a slippery slope, but it doesn't mean that AA now instantly becomes another abuser. As already mentioned, the other lords were true vampires, not ascendants. Astarion doesn't suffer from the same conditions that they did.

Well I could explain it, as I have studied it, but I am afraid, I am not allowed hahaha. So well, I guess you know already by yourself, why people, who are not playing this route, are insisting and writing here until the end of days.




This is stated by someone, who doesn't play or know this route. It is just your own point of view. You think they underline the story. It's your right. But most people do not think like you.

@KillerRabbit: Have you ever romanced AA in your story?

No, they already answered on this and said: no. So they haven't experienced the romance.

So fundamental that Tav has some positive answers for the Ascended Astarion.
Probably for a Tav who: wanted power and hedonistic decadent debauchery.
With one hand we're like, "Tav's afraid, doesn't like rough kissing."
Another hand: well Tav kisses (afraid and angry) Astarion before the battle and approaches Astarion 6 months later leaving in with Karlach. "I didn't mean to leave you like that"



It's not at all about abuse and that Tav is unhappy and afraid, which is kind of hinted at by Tav's "we're flourishing" responses.

It's still not seeing the text and the original narrative.
Fundamentally enjoy debauchery.

Baldur's Gate 3: Wither's Cut Epilogue 3 patch:



Epilogue Released 5 Patch:

Then if KillerRabbit isn't romancing AA, it doesn't make a bit of difference in their story. KillerRabbit, you opinion (head canon) is noted, now please let us suggest what we are trying to suggest in this suggestion & feedback forum to LARIAN. You can discuss and argue your point of happiness in Story & Discussion. Please, stop repeating yourself. Your game never changes. It is quite simple.

I actually agree with someone’s earlier point that the epilogue, which happens after the fall of the Netherbrain, would have been the place to showcase the nature of Tav and AA’s relationship. Which it does, by offering dialogue that supports either an unhappy, trapped Tav or an enamoured co-conspirator. Which are the two paths AA romancers have had available since launch.

Tav’s facial expressions feel like they were designed with the idea that the majority of players see AA as scary/monstrous/abusive (pick your adjective of choice). Whereas the majority of players who will encounter these scenes in their game see him as an evil man who nonetheless has deep seated (albeit) twisted feelings for Tav. He ranks Tav as beneath himself, but also better than everyone else. So I don’t think anyone is being unrealistic if they believe AA would treat their Tav as a special case while terrorizing the rest of the world.

In fact, when Tav pushes for freedom in the epilogue AA’s response is that he’ll keep showering them with luxury and decadence. So I think he’d take a velvet glove and not a steel fist approach to getting what he wants. Which makes scared Tav seem even more illogical.

I also think it becomes problematic if the only like minded romantic partner you can have as an ‘evil’ Tav is Minthara, especially in a game that wants to be inclusive.

It’s also somewhat unfortunate that we can’t know Larian’s intentions. Which leaves us speculating about what, if anything, they were trying to convey. Their choice to post the kneeling kiss on Valentine’s is suggestive. It feels like we were supposed to enjoy this and they missed the mark.

I'm sorry but I don't find any connection between making AAstarion explicitly abusive with changing TAV's face during kisses.
As others have said, if Larian's intention is to make AAstarion abusive, they should have done it with the character himself and done it a long time ago. Making the TAV scared during an intimate moment is a mean move to convey this message because the TAV is something personal, it is the character created by the player. The fear, the disgust for these kisses is not transmitted by AAstarion because it is perceived as abusive, but by the face of the TAV! You see that those who like AAstarion have absolutely not changed their minds about him because he is not the problem!
I also find it inconsistent to give the player the option of selecting dialogues in which the TAV agrees with AAstarion, expresses happiness in the relationship with him, and then makes him scared during the kisses.
And as others have written here, there isn't always dialogue between authors and animators, so yes, there could been a misunderstanding.


Exactly! For me there is no doubt that AAstarion treats the TAV in a special way and not as a simple spawn. I don't think he calls TAV "consort" or in many other sweet ways, just because the TAV is free from his influence due to the tadpole .
Even in the epilogue, in the infamous scene in which he does not allow you to leave him, the moment in which he could have exposed his diabolical plans of oppression and abuse, he does not say that he will mistreat the TAV or that he will make him his slave . On the contrary, he says that his plans for their future together are that the TAV will always be at his side to rule the world, as consort.
Again, even in the dialogue during the party where the TAV talks about "freedom", AAstarion yes, gets angry but does not mention any possible flogging for the TAV for having disagreed and then, again, says that he is sharing everything with the TAV, both his power, his riches and wants to make the TAV live as best as possible.
We can argue about whether preventing TAV from leaving is still an abusive attitude, but there is no mention of physical abuse or torture.
The party would have been the perfect opportunity to show how AAstarion was becoming more evil and abusive but, again, this is ambiguous and the player is left, through dialogue, the freedom to see a relationship of understanding with AAstarion or not .

Well, you're in luck . I really wanted to try the honor mode, good thing the fights here are not so difficult (but very interesting and dynamic) if you know the game. But what's the point if I'm going to be "dishonored" with kisses in the third act anyway? Just as it is impossible to go through with DU and Astarion and record a video to remember.


Did you know patch six was coming out and what would be in it? Well, it didn't destroy Astarion himself, he doesn't remember anything. He probably thinks that Tav doesn't kiss him at all, poor Astarion, not enough "I want your body", no refutation that Tav humiliates himself by staying with him, no hugs and kisses in the epilogue... True, in the epilogue he is just as happy, "true freedom", laughter, everything as it should be. And how often does the hope-deprived Astarion "spawn forever" laugh sincerely and openly?


Lae feels perfectly at home on Orpheus' side. Gale himself refuses the crown in the finale (though I never judged those aspirations of his). It's been said that it takes an affair for him to take the crown , but I could be lying here, I haven't checked that information. Shadowheart throws the spear herself - I don't like to pressure companions, and she decided on her own, but what was my surprise when I found out from other players that it turns out she only needs 40 approvals to do it! Gale and SH are extremely difficult to "destroy" unless you try to do it intentionally. Astarion knows exactly what he wants, and only through manipulation (that said, if you fail a check, he'll explain to you perfectly well why he doesn't want that fate) can you plunge him into the dramatic/traumatic abyss of redemption. And through the denial and deception of the illusion of "better motives" I see it:
This is Maslow's pyramid - the theory of the hierarchy of needs. It works in reality, if it does not work in the "imaginary world", it means that this world is very crooked and unrealistically invented. Brief meaning - as long as the basic needs of the personality are not satisfied, the personality is not interested in "spirituality", philosophy and other things. You have nothing to eat (Astarion will regularly experience hunger) - you don't care whether you are the best or worst version of yourself. You're not safe (Astarion the Spawn will never be safe, which is probably why he keeps clinging to Tav, who didn't want to help him, for some safety and a better chance of survival) - ditto. Maybe they should just "come down from heaven", and let those players who want to perceive the game world not as a dramatic/traumatic novel with "reading between the lines" and perception of companions as poor stupid homeless people, which the great and all understanding Tav should encourage and "guide on the way" (the crown, stuck on Tav's portrait in one of the patches is very much in theme), but as a living and realistic world, and Astarion in it as a living and unique Personality, to play calmly, and not beat them with a "red sledgehammer" in the form of traumatizing content? Or they stepped on "red flags", didn't notice, shook it off their boots and ran on, they don't understand anything between the lines - should "heavy artillery" be introduced without warning? This is not a "creative idea", this is propaganda. Low quality propaganda (doesn't work for anyone, as we can see), embittered propaganda designed to hurt, offend, traumatize. Games shouldn't be made that way. A game should be passable and should be enjoyable.
And if we are talking about the fact that games can teach something, then yes, they can. Take such a wonderful game as "Disco Elysium" and try, for example, for the sake of interest, to choose lines in it that correspond to the character of a person of chauvinistic and nationalistic views, start humiliating your companion - the game will give you such a response that you will feel disgusted with yourself, even if you did it for the sake of testing, because another player advised you to see what will happen. You will find it hard to continue this experiment - and without any violence and breaking the narrative, without any cut-scenes, only at the expense of the artistic text of dialogs. You'll figure it out. And what Larian is doing now with Astarion.... Guys, try to make RPGs after all, you used to be able to do it, the first two acts are great. This is clearly not a "best story" award.


Okay. I'm completely without malice, it's just very funny what happened with "evil lovers" - how we can control and cure fears, just like Dr. Hannibal Lecter comes out, no other way . I like to discuss the game too, and any argument is a good "warm-up for the mind". And I don't want to reproach you, I just want to point out that we are discussing specific problems related to patch 6 in this thread. But you could create an excellent thread on "One does not simply Ascend Astarion" and you could continue this argument there, if you are interested, of course.


Yes! And the rail dialog doesn't give us that option. Just look at what Astarion hears from Tav. "I want your body." Astarion is sure that Tav likes to be humiliated, there's no way to let him know otherwise in any way at all. Teacher-style remarks and whatnot are so stupid that to choose that for the player is to really humiliate himself already. So headcanons, their own representations, and in general yes, if we imagine that after the epilogue in further relations with Astarion Tav will have his own "set of lines" and the ability to control his facial expressions, then "the process will go on". The process of healing the trauma, the process of building a deep, close, trusting relationship. Ok, I'm not demanding "stars from the sky" and some super awesome lines and reactions from the author of the romance line, it's clear that's not reality, and Tav can't be as smart as the player wants him to be. Just don't break it, don't spoil it, let it play, and then the players will "complete" everything for themselves with their own headcanons.



This is a perfect summary of all our arguments in this thread. If someone who has not read the thread would ask me what the discussion is about, I would just quote these posts.


Yes, you can still rejoice in the style of, "What luck that I'll never get to that ending! That's right, leave the ending, it perfectly captures their relationship. The Tavs don't care about Astarion, the Tavs are only interested in how heroic and noble they themselves are, the Tavs are abusers, they want to control the dependent brat-Astarion. Obedient vampire boy. That's okay, he won't die that, it's more important to drink with his friends to a grand victory! Then he'll come crawling back, where will he go? We can even break up with him - we've played enough, we're in favor of free relationships! Look, how many choices! What complaints can there be?"

No, of course I would never write a post like this in someone else's thread. But damn, I can really feel how glad I am that I'll never get to that ending...


AA is not acting like a charlatan. AA is acting according to what he heard from Tav in the rail dialog. It's fitting not even the character but the player's roleplay to the "author's vision", it's "pulling an owl over a globe" because somehow the author can't do it any other way. And even so it doesn't work, ay-yay-yay, "wrong interpretations" are born, it's necessary to "emphasize kinematicity", or they, bullies, will not see the "brilliant idea".


So the game should be unplayable in itself, used only as a basis for modding? It's a shame, but maybe that's the fate that awaits BG3. Improved, improved, and so improved that without modders nowhere... Poor Minthara, probably only modders will finish it. And with Astarion, we can't do without mods now. Modders should be given bonuses then, not the studio, which can't do anything without them!


Do the loyal fans themselves feel that way, did you elaborate? It's entirely possible that something else entirely is hurting their cause. The goal of the people who are stirring up unnecessary discussion in a thread is to derail the thread, prevent the panelists from organizing a constructive discussion, etc. I emphasize that I am not referring to anyone here, these are just classic rules of so-called flood trolling. Everyone who has had any interest in the "troll topic" on the internet knows this. Ask google if you want.


Gale is henpecked and selfish. Recall how he comments on the other companions' woes - surrendering SH to Viconia, demanding at the beginning that Astarion be kicked out of the camp, etc. Why might Gale's fans in their headcanons think otherwise if "truth" is such an important part of canon? Where is the deliberate display of these Gale qualities across the plot?

Halsin is a pervert, then he should forcibly rape all Tavs and companions, in case anyone didn't notice he was a pervert. And so on...


Ah, that's the source of this "wisdom"! Minsk! Why no "good" or "asses"? "Asses" is definitely missing, it would be more fun .

"And fate pulled the mighty Minsk to the dark lands where the water was not wet, and the grass was not green, and the moon was not round, and he vomited under every bush, but he kept going and going, to bring the light of goodness and arguments irrefutable."

Hence the title of the suggestion & feedback to Larian. RE: Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion. Changing something several months into the release after having something different doesn't make sense. We are making a suggestion to Larian that we would like to see looked at more closely. It does not change the entire game for anyone else. If you are happy and do not play this piece of the puzzle, it doesn't affect your game, fine. We have the right to request just like anyone else.

Yep, it is not, furthermore it is rather excluding the players, who are or better to say were actually playing this romance right now. Posting SA/DV context on Valentine's day is more than insensitive, whatever their intention was. But honestly, I assume, the ones posting this scene were not aware of Tav's facial expressions/sadness how it looks like ingame (as it was Gale's character) and thought, this scene is a great way to promote and to attract attention, which worked out very well. Things happen.

Even if the edgy joke, look how vampirically wrong it is, darkly, uh-oh.
It's just silly when there's a tadpole plot, Tav can break up...
And when you look at Tav's responses, at the narrative (above) it gets even more and more silly, confused.
And then you remember DU which is high from pain and you realize how sloppy it all was.

The most funny thing is: Tav is happy: Could I kiss you? Astarion: yes, Darling! Tav is unhappy, screaming like being killed, THEN, suddenly, HE ENJOYS the kiss, and then SUDDENLY back to disgust and anger and sadness.
Astarion says: "I do rather like that, you know" and Tav, who was just pissed-off, screaming like being R* by a sexual predator, is laughing. He is laughing. This whole thing is so ridiculous and abstruse, I laughed so hard about this nonsense and terrible, terrible inconsistent writing. Every dime novel is better written than that. And all those people here.. you know... those are not playing this route, it's so funny. I feel like I would live in the outer space here. That's not real xD

It's such a well written story about the cycle of abuse inflicted on your chara that you didn't experience it after ascending AA until patch 6 and you still don't if you don't kiss him.

Make you a deal. I'll shut up if you do. Promise not repeat yourself on of the 20+ threads on this topic and I'll never talk about AA.

And however diplomatically you phrased it you just told me to shut up. And thus I recommend that that doctor take a dose of their own medicine.

It's quite simple.

The sad thing is that I do enjoy the kisses! But I just don't enjoy Tav's face. They would be 100% better if the face could just be fixed. I was excited when I saw them initially. I just wish Tav didn't have to look like the kiss is unwanted when I'm the one asking for the kisses. It takes me out of being immersed in the game.

There are numerous Ascended Astarion threads here, all filled with the same few people agreeing with each other and shutting down different opinions. While several people pointed out the themes of abuse surrounding Ascended Astarion, it was all ignored. Now, everyone is surprised and offended when Larian chose to add something to their own story that affirms the existing narrative.

Well, there are people, who like the kisses how they are, and just want to change their facial expressions. But it's still an intense kink (Tav is not touching Astarion and portrayed as an extreme sub/slave, who is not allowed to touch Astarion). I just want to mention it.
Then there are people, who like D/s, but would like to have a balance, like, also changing Tav's body language, so that Tav is enjoying it also with his body (and not rejecting like in the bite kiss or karlach kiss)
And of course, there are also some people, but as the survey says, there are fewer, who don't like D/s and prefer the old kiss or similiar.

And why is it that only people who don't like AA go to his threads and start endless discussions? No AA fan goes to threads of Gale, Karlach, etc. and starts trashing the characters to get a reaction.