Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion

I love the new kisses, but I don't like the expression on the player character's face, like many others. To make it clear, I have no problem with the way Astarion is acting. It's all about Tav.

The fearful facial expressions just make no sense to me, especially the kneeling one. Your character willingly kneels when Astarion asks. They aren't (and can't, at this point) compelled, Astarion isn't physically forcing them or even verbally pressuring them. So why does my character already have their eyebrows furrowed and look upset while they're starting to kneel? My character answered be rough before they were turned and enjoyed that, so why do they look terrified now to something they're consenting to participate in?

Now let's look at it from a game play perspective instead of a story perspective. The player behind the character is the one asking for these kisses. So why decide their character is miserable when the player probably doesn't feel that way? I'm not saying the scared expression has no place. But maybe whether your character has a scared face or not should be tied to whether you asked Astarion to be rough or to be gentle, with the "gentle" response being attached to the scared faces.

Well, gonna put my 2 cents and also agree with everything OP said, initially I liked the new kisses until I noticed the facial expressions from my Character, that stopped me to enjoy them at all, and as many have stated, it plain out stopped me from even asking for such kisses. They come from NOWHERE since AA had always being 'controling but sweet' with his partner.

And with the constant harassment from the rest of the community that seems to " care too much for the mental health " of people that do like to play this route like a classical dark romance Dracula/Mina style, it has drained me soo much that me and some friends that also like this route had stopped playing.

Is sad because at this point I don't know if Larian is oblivious of these issues? witch i dont think so, with all their community managers that even now, they haven't addressed these problems is unbelievable.

I'm in awe that someone saw the character expressions and gave an approval for those kisses and said ; yeah that will be perfect for a "romantic valentine patch"

At this point all those changes serve as more fuel for those that love to target and harrass AA fans. Is disgusting.

That is true. It's like they want to make people hate Astarion. None of the other romances that we chose to play the evil side has that.
I want AA to get the justice it deserves. I know my tav's would never make those scared expressions. They love him so much and would always have expressions of happiness, a little naughty and obviously love.

They pushed a lot with this update.


And one of the things that I still hope to have one day is Tav's transformation into a spawn with fangs.

Thank you so much all of you for sharing your opinions!

There was a feedback poll recently that garnered 600 responses + original responses from people. It's already been sent.
We'll just have to wait for patch 7 and see the attitude towards it.

We've been discussing Tav's victim-face while kissing for Valentine's Day since page 11 in this thread
just in case, here's a link

Agree with what is said here. Tav's shown behaviour is complete nonsense and contradicts everything else. Whoever came up with this is doing considerable harm to an entire fan base. Tav shown in a nonconsensual, sexual violence context is triggering for a lot of people. It also promotes abuse and violence toward women/gay men (Some people are already saying, these kisses or Tav's behaviour/facial expressions - being kissed against their will - are okay.) I can only appeal to Larian management to take this into account.

I'm pasting the summary of facial expressions here (I am no expert, if in doubt, ask a body language expert). Tav is overall shown SAD, fearful, angry and only fake smiling.


How our Tav should not look like for us, when they are asking their lover and partner for a kiss.

Sadness, anger, contempt, fake smiles, disgust, extreme fear have absolutely no place for our characters in a kiss, especially when the character themselves is asking for it.


*** WARNING: sensitive content (may contain violence, abuse) this content might not be suitable for all audiences. ***

Ascended Astarion Kisses Patch 6 - Tav's facial expressions & body language (Tav Character-Swap with Astarion/Wyll to show it better) - bruises are from a regular fight.

This updated version of the pic looks even more horrifying. He looks like victims on posters about domestic abuse. Yikes.

I don't get why those people care so much about our love interest. I honestly could not care less who they choose to persue in the game. And it astounds me that not EVERYBODY is screaming against this show of abuse in Baldur's gate 3.

My theory as to how they shipped these kisses is that they where really pressed for time, they obviously wanted to realease on Valentines but got delayed. Someone did not think too hard about Tavs face animation and just pasted a scared expression they thought suited the moment. Someone was careless. Someone else restlessly gave the thumbs up. And if this is the case they should make a statement, they SHOULD fix it asap.

It is preventing us from playing the game, but unlike a bug it also gave some emotional trauma. Worse for some than for others, but I'm sure we all felt that horrible feeling.

@zayir Those pictures shows the issue very clearly, if someone still don't get it I don't think they ever will..

That was my hope. But it died today. Unfortunetaly, the facial expressions AND body language are very well orchestrated, his new line "You are my favourite after all", implies not only, that he has others besides you (Sex slaves, spawns, lovers?), but also, that the current writer is trying to turn Astarion 180 degrees, even if it is bad writing, to destroy an entire Romance Route. We current players just seem to be thrown away like trash... Alas, I wish I was wrong.



This. But maybe it's someone's intention? The fact that they published something like this (sexual violence/abuse), which is triggering for lot of players, as a Valentine's Day patch shows how indifferent and insensitive some of the Team are or perhaps malicious.

"you are my favourite" can also simply be a power game. Spawn Astarion tells you, that you are the first person he truly cares about in a round about way, that shows he isn't comfortable making such statements in public. Ascended likes power games, so he tells you that you are special in a ways that still asserts his dominance in the relationship because it implies there might be others, which makes you jealous. Just to throw in another interpretation.

Thank you, Anska. But as I said, my Hope has died today, there is a reason for it. We are a minority. We are worthless trash. Nothing more, nothing less. If they will not change the current writer, the Route will be wiped out, at least for normal and sane people.

Going through the registration process on this site turned out to be a real quest. And the longer I had it, the more I wrote down my thoughts.
I apologize in advance for my English, it’s not my native language.

I too want to share my thoughts on the latest sixth patch. For the first time, seeing the animations of Ascended Astarion (hereinafter - AA), I was shocked and delighted that for the holiday developers tried so hard to please fans, introduced a new animation, wow! But that's just the first impression. The more I looked at them, the faster the wow effect went away. It was a gift, wasn't it? This face of horror, is it just a mistake? Isn't it? And in many ways, I'm still offended. And no, I haven't come to terms with it. And it's probably not even about the new animations, they're done well and detailed (especially if you watch the free camera and those clenched fists...). It's precisely about the lack of choice. Throughout the game, the player makes conscious choices about their actions. Astarion's ascension, among other things, is a conscious choice by the player. Personally, I didn't do it because: "keep sexualizing the character" or "get a hot bed scene". I don't want to argue about what's best for either character, I'm only talking about my choice. My game tactic has been to minimize interference in the fate of my companions as much as possible. You want to reject Vlaakith and side with Orpheus? Please, I'll support you. You want to turn your back on Sharr? It's your choice, my dear, I'll support you. You want to take revenge on your master and take his power? That makes sense, I'm with you.
Having a romance with Astarion, and not with anyone else, is also a conscious choice. He's an interesting character, his story is compelling, and I want to help him the way I see it....
At least up until the sixth patch, you could interpret something to your liking. To customize the story to fit one's game. But not now.
Now, it turns out, having a romance with a pragmatic moral gray character is a detriment. With Sharr Sheduohart you can, with Mintara you can, even now in the good way, not necessarily kill, with the god Gale - you can. With Will without horns, of course you can, he's still the same goody-goody, he just got tricked. In the latest update, even Gortash can hint at a former romance with Dark Urge! With AA you can't, it's harmful. Harmful to mental health. It's harmful to enjoy a dark novel. It's harmful to not see the differences from all-consuming virtue and indulge the dark side. It is not good to support evil and power. Only greedy monsters are in power. They are incapable of love, incapable of doing anything for good. They have problems with logic and a generally flat brain, because they are driven by the motivation of evil for evil's sake. They are evil in their pure "black" color, no gray shades. When we enter the AA path, we continue the cycle of violence, we become an "Astarion" and AA is the new Casador and there are no more options. Now your "new master" decides where, when and how romance will happen and in the way he wants it to happen. The "bride" theory is just your theory and headcanon. You are a spaun - nothing more. Not even, you are your new master's obedient pet and favorite toy. Am I forgetting something? (that was sarcasm, if anything).
And now, when throughout ALL of the game, I've made choices that seemingly should somehow affect the character's relationships, I get an outcome that doesn't depend on me at all? I'll try to explain.
In general, Astarion has the most opportunities for bullying in the game. He can literally be killed on the third night or kick by.... if TAB gets on his knees. You can drop an entire temple on him! But, I respected the autonomy Astarion. I didn't have double romances or choose between multiple characters. I didn't give Astarion to a hunter, I protected him. I didn't sacrifice him to the fish-people. When meeting the drow in the towers, I let him make HIS choice as to whether or not to bite. I didn't even hug him (though I wanted to) when he chose to open up in the confession scene, but chose to "open my mind" to make HIM comfortable. I didn't go to the brothel to the drow twins. In my opinion offering him that, especially knowing Astarion's history, is...wrong? I said no to Halsin (too bad you can't gossip about it with Astarion and tell HIM we don't need anyone). I said no to Mizora. I said no to Harlep. (That's just in my game, I don't judge anyone who made a different choice). In none of these interactions, can we tell our love interest that we need him, and we're fine with that, and we don't need anyone else. But going into these interactions...we get a little extra content...oh well.
And now, while respecting the character's autonomy all the way games, when interacting with AA I get...this? It's a slap in the face, literally. From a game that's supposed to be fun. Why? Why can't I tell it to stop? Why can't I say I don't like it? Or should I like it, because it turns out I only see him as a "hot vampire"? Should I push the "we should break up" button? Or should I no longer ask for a kiss so I don't have to see this interaction? How am I supposed to feel? Is this a bad gift or punishment for making a choice? Why, if it's a punishment, is it only for choosing AA and not some other character on the "evil path"? I forgot the "stop word", does anyone know?
To oversimplify at all, you could tie these kisses to the moment of the main character's conversion to spaun (ah, the bride...). "Be gentle" - we get the old kissing interactions, "okay, let it hurt" - and here's some new content with both knees and biting. Or, could we make it so we can choose the emotions of the characters we play as? Or maybe ask for AA and get a kiss of our choice? Spaun Astarion didn't suddenly have his fangs fall out, he can bite too, that kiss would be hot for all fans if there was a choice... Today I want tenderness, tomorrow I want roughness. It's a game! And in all these interactions, the face of fear is the last thing I want to see. Knees... it's an intimate moment! It used to be, now it's ubiquitous and humiliating. A shove in the face or a light slap, maybe...but the face of disgusts at the end...Is it still bed games or am I being blatantly humiliated as a player? The kiss from Carlach....probably the most neutral of what's left. Although there's a face of incomprehension there too.
"After all, you are my favorite." What? How long have I been asleep? Who have you bitten yet? Or am I "favorite" in the sense of appetizer? Or am I "favorite" in the sense of lover? Favorite between who?
Spaun had a great line when asked for a kiss, "I don't mind, but I'm glad you asked." Why did they take it out? It was a miracle! It would have been better to bring him back instead of giving him a new AA.
To wrap up what I said earlier, I'd like to quote a thought that I'm stumbling across everywhere right now and it makes me feel bad: "AA fans, now your have the sweetest tears...".
I'm really mourning now for that "evil lord" who used to spin around like a schoolgirl and say, «Yes my treasure», «Ask me everything and it will be yours» (just don't delete this!!!). And you could feel it in every word. That "evil lord" who, it felt, was ready to burn the world to the ground if HIS treasure asked him to (yes, I’m here for that kind of atmosphere!). The "evil lord" who took offense for three days if you broke up with him. The "evil lord" that was before the sixth patch...
And now I don't even know if I should update the game because I've already been robbed of my favorite character, I don't want him to be rewritten at all. AA was just an uncut vampire diamond, and now it's Disney's Gaston with a dash of Christian Grey's bad example.... or did I just insult them both? Jared, where are you, come here!
I'm going to go cry sweetly, hugging my knees in my dark corner on the dark side.

Someone definitely wishes us to do so... "Punishment". It feels like that. But no. This implies that we did something wrong. No, we did not. We just want to enjoy a game. It's more "harm". Someone of the Larian team did something wrong. Not we.


Mirmi, feel hugged from us, you are not alone!

Larian Team, real People are hurt! They are harmed, they are suffering. And some even have PTSD flashbacks.

I hope they see this as a problem at all. Otherwise it looks like revenge on the "smart people" who love Astarion too much, who think they're playing an RPG game with roleplay, who know about Astarion's plot and character, and who need to prove that the "cycle of abuse" is not a tired old phrase, no. It's something that will happen to you now in the game and beyond. Of course, those kisses are powerful weapons given to those who "behave right." Refusing the ritual is violence to Astarion itself, and many "fixers" would get pretty pissed off when some plot-savvy AA fan reasoned this out to them, and all their arguments would eventually boil down to "if Tav wants freedom" and the proverbial "cycles" and 7000. I really want freedom. In game. For roleplay and a plot adequate to that roleplay. And before moralists were generally harmless, "the dog barks and the caravan goes", but now... Everything, nothing goes. Play impossible.


Yeah. What did they say, "feel the love"? "Love in our office"? They have that kind of "love" in their office, too? Then I can see why those who do Astarion's romantic history hate him so much.


This!

It's violence propaganda. It's really scary. Behind the discussion of plot and logic, which is of course important because it's no longer an RPG game, and definitely not "game of the year", the most frightening thing is the sadism, which is presented as "deserved punishment". And yes, specifically only towards women and homosexual men. The majority of AA players are women. By the way, it is with build 1 (classic female) that Tav looks the worst. I have a build 3 and it's not as bad as the videos of women and men with a build 1. The athletic figure is designed mostly for men and animated a bit differently. The face-grabbing kiss - Astarion pulls tall Tav by the chin down towards him, it looks "wicked" and even quite passionate, and not like with body 1 (there he takes Tav's face more "like a thing"). But the rest of the kisses - Tav 3 looks very resentful, not as scared as Tav 1, but exactly that much resentful, especially with the knees and because of the slaps after the bite. It's more like a "villain" who got in trouble and now they are being "put down". Most play body 1, and for them they "tried" especially brutally. Classic animation of a violence victim.


This image is just impossible to look at for a long time - my hands start shaking and a lump comes to my throat. The animator Larian did such animations for Tav and he was fine.


I'd like to see at least one of these cowards IRL. When they themselves, wiping their snotty noses, crawl back into their hole. But IRL are, as a rule, pathetic, weak and cowardly people with a lot of complexes and unsatisfied sadistic tendencies on the background of these complexes, who can open their mouths only if there is a crowd of them and they are on the Internet. And the "kind uncles" allow them to bait.

Mirmi, I completely agree with your post. Yes, Astarion has the most opportunities for bullying in the game. It's only after Ascension that he becomes invulnerable to it. The most that can happen after that is the sluggish squeaks from companions about what a "monster" he is. I, too, have always loved him and kept him safe from all the possible crap that is "available in the story". We can't even respond to Oblodra the way she deserves, with all the other options for "rude" interactions with other NPCs (killing her in Act 3 is satisfying, but in Act 2, no intimidation, no rudeness, refusing is exceptionally polite). That said, we can't even ask Astarion to turn around in the scarred scene politely and gently as we'd like him to. Not to mention the lines on the night after the Ascension, the inability to kiss him in the epilogue, and everything else. I tried to compensate for it with gameplay moments - rings allowing Tav to take his damage so that in my world Astarion would never be hurt again, a statue, beautiful things (in the story you can't give him a gift, unlike the same Shadowheart, only in "headcanon"). And what they show now in those kisses is such a mockery, such an insane contrast with the whole game, with all our feelings... In the game I automatically had a kind of internal "fighting stance" if someone tried to open their mouth at him at least. But now? How to protect Astarion from those scoundrels who try to kill and dismember his image through "scripting", using sadistic rails and taking revenge on players for daring to truly love this particular character? Hugs to you.

I support this with all my heart.

One romance with an evil man in a game that is supposed to bring various and pleasurable emotions to those who prefer it.
The only kisses in the game with a scared face, really? That's absurd.

Why so serious and picky for much a minor thing?
Give it a couple more years and all the cinematics will look so silly, so who cares anyways.
Its like complaining that cloud kissing and emotions are weird and all in FF7 in the 90s. Do you think gamers talked about that in the 90s, or hell even for PS2's FFX. lol. NO they talked about the story and how cool the game played out, not some BS facial animations...because back THANK GOD there were none to be anal about.
I miss these simpler times.

But to be fair to your post and sensitivities I completely agree that patch 6 is horrible on many fronts. Like totally different patch team in Greenland or somewhere... took care of it.

Could you elaborate it? In case I miss some info that shared here?

Dude. Emotions during kissing are an important part of a romantic story.

It's a total miss on all fronts.
Not in terms of dealing with feelings\sexuality persons (it's a February 14th fanservice, kneeling randoms, scared face), not in terms of game play (player wants kiss, player clicks), not in terms of plot (the character is afraid and reluctant - the breakup - tadpole here, and why even go near the kiss) - ZERO neatness in all thing.
Isn't that the plot? A romantic story, though.
A total mismatch with story is a minor well then the golden 90's will never rise like a phoenix.
Well, we don't have a plot reveal where Astarion was selling prisoners as food for vampires. It's not realized.

But you're right, 90 is good. It is in them that it is written "Van Richten's Guide to Vampires". Great inspiration for a vampire novel. Not even b&w-abuse and frightened faces. The normal Dark Romance, that brings interesting emotions and thoughts.

Thank you, I'm glad I'm not alone in my opinion. Hugs to all)))

I still really hope that lack of time and carelessness played a part, and everything we see was not done out of malice. I just don't know how else to justify this horror.
"I prayed to all the gods of Feirun (Larian), but none answered" for them to fix or at least make changes. They have always gone out of their way to help the players, after all. Karlach's kiss was requested by many to be added for AA, as it was very suitable for a spaun Tav. Checks the heartbeat, looks at the bite mark, kisses. I can't remember though, does Karlach with the same face look as our Tavs now or not?

Unfortunately, it wouldn't be allowed. But you can read my own first impression and analysis of the bite-kiss here: https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=919717&page=16
Tav is shown as an unhappy sexslave/sexdoll. The new voice lines fit into this impression. Someone has written/directed these kisses. It's well orchestrated. That person was aware of everything. Did that person harm a whole fanbase? Yes. Was it their intention? I can't look into their heads.
Will the person, who directed this (Tav being shown as a victim of sexual abuse/sexslave) be removed? Probably not. It depends, how the Larian Team will handle this. Will the AA Route be destroyed in the future? Probably yes. It depends, how the Larian Team will handle this. Would anyone play this Romance route furthermore, if they continue this turn? 99 % no. 1 % with sexual deviation and those, who cannot feel empathy perhaps. Is that intention? I can't look into their heads. We cannot speculate on this.


For women (and gay men), who not just enjoy the mainstory, but also their Romance, some players even bought this game to enjoy these Romance stories (Larian is using those Romance scenes for their advertising and promoting their game), it is not (!) a minor thing. A lot of women, also those who have experienced traumatas, had to face sexual violence toward their characters - and this, complete out of the blue, 6 months after release in a Valentine's Patch. In case, you haven't noticed, here is another picture of Shadowheart and Karlach. It clearly shows sexual violence: Tav is sad, terrified, disgusted by his Partner. Even Ketheric looks terrified. Sorry, guys. but almost no AA fan is playing this game anymore. All women, I have talked with or read their comments, are shocked, how they are treated. A lot of people even have flashbacks, it wouldn't have happened, if this scene wasn't meant to show the character in a sexual violence context... Thank you, that you agree with us, that patch 6 is horrible on many fronts. And thank you for your understanding, how sensitive this subject is!

These are Tavs in ALL 3 kisses.

Oh my god , if you see the face so close up, it’s really disturbing ..