Quote
Originally Posted by Podarge
Originally Posted by LittleMonday
We know that tadpoles communicate with and influence one another, and that influence is made explicit when you have to make a wisdom save to reject it. For The Emperor to simulate emotions in the pc without any indication from the narration that that's what he's doing, no skill checks or anything, I see no evidence to suggest that's what going on.

He has no interest in lying about everything, but he may amplify what he chooses to share. I no longer believe in the supposed objectivity of the narrator since the encounter with the Guardian at the Creche, due to the lie despite the insight check. It's conditional, but the Emperor is already lying, if only by his demeanour. Doing this with such assurance and to have it confirmed by the narrator casts doubt on everything that is truly perceived:
"There's no lie. I would never lie to you.
Narrator: *In spite of your reservations, he's telling the truth.*"
Moreover, she does not always remain in her place, such as when she comments in the Emperor's rejection event: "As you drift into sleep, you feel a certain disappointment. The mind flayer was very quick to abandon its attentions on you."
It's totally biased, but I hold onto this certainty when we encounter Raphael at the brothel: "Narrator: For the first time since the nautiloid, your mind is clear. It's... unsettling." at the side of the Meticulous Notes (https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Meticulous_Notes)

As far as the Narrator is concerned, that is a massive conversation more appropriate for another thread entirely. Cherry picking a couple of quotes regarding The Emperor is not sufficient analysis. There are moments when the Narrator leans you towards trusting The Emperor, and she is right. However, there are moment's where she leans you away from certain actions, such as freeing the pixie from the moonlantern, even though that has a far greater benefit than not freeing her. If we really want to get a sense of the Narrator's biases, we need to have a robust conversation about the game's narration as a whole and the extent of its impact on the gameplay and the story.

I've already addressed the ways in which I believe the Emperor utilizes half-truths, manipulation, and where that intersects with his relationship to the pc, so I don't think I need to go into that again.

You bring up the Meticulous Notes, and I think that's really interesting. To quote the most important part: "How does innate telepathy impact the structures of the brain? And beyond that, how does the presence of another's mind within one's own affect the body? What may seem like mere thoughts and images could cause extremes of fear or pleasure if they are embedded deep enough in the recipients' psyche. If such an experience leaves behind a permanent memory, is that part of your mind still truly your own?" Illithid communication involves not just a sharing of thoughts, but also emotions. The game is very clear on that. The game is also very clear on the player's agency, and very clear when their agency is compromised. Is the disappointment the pc feels due to The Emperor's disappointment? Maybe. If the pc goes through with the romance scene we learn that it's difficult to tell where thoughts end and feelings begin. It allows us to better read The Emperor's expressions, where before the pc struggled to do so. We learn that they communed deeply with one another's minds in a way words can't fully articulate. That communing begins when the pc consents to the romance, and that disappointment is felt if the pc withdraws their consent. As far as The Emperor moving on quickly, well that's just the result of that particular choice of actions. I've already gone into various endings where The Emperor's feelings for the pc are deeper than just that of an alliance, so I won't repeat that here. Those endings are a result of a different set of actions, not that dissimilar from branching choices we make with other npcs or our companions.

If there ever is a fleshed out romance with The Emperor, I could see this being a fascinating theme to explore. Romances often explore themes around boundaries, so this would fit perfectly into the kinds of themes we can expect from a romance.

Lastly, the part with Raphael is a scene in which a devil he just snaps his fingers and everything goes quiet. The Emperor can't read your mind at that point, and you still have the option to tell him that you enjoyed having your mind to yourself. In some dialogue choices you can even tell him to trust you as he's asked you to trust him, and he respects that.

Quote
Quote
Transformation is something that he never forces on the pc.

He doesn't force us to finalize the process, but he truly expects us to claim it ourselves after he has given everything to convince us.
To human Tav on the dock: "And in spite of your resistance to (completing your) evolution - you have proved a good ally."

I've already talked about how he wants the pc to embrace transformation but leaves the decision entirely to you to do so. I've also already addressed why I don't believe it's mutually exclusive for him to want the pc to transform while also viewing them as more than a mere tool for his ends.

Quote
[quote]I don't see anything in the letter that indicates to me that he's calling all the shots.

"I have made the necessary adjustments to my headquarters - our headquarters." I perceive the correction he brings as a way to assert the place is strictly his own, while indicating that our presence is "indefinitely" welcome, rather than treating it as a mistake he spontaneously rectified. The way it's phrased also gives me the impression that he will be responsible for redesigning the construction plans beneath the tavern and defining more of its accesses, not just for the "necessary adjustments". And due to our absence, there is a significant likelihood of needing to further enhance the foundations of what he has established rather than reaching consensus on new initiatives.
He shares his intentions in both letters addressed to illithid Tav, but at no point does he involve us in the process (using "we" is the least he does), nor does he mention waiting for our return to validate certain points, despite the possibility that our avatar may have submitted some before embarking on their journey 6 months ago.

This really seems like a reach to me. There's nothing in there about an indefinite welcome, and redesigning the headquarters is brought up in the context of making it work for two mind flayers who cannot freely roam the city. There's nothing in there to suggest they did or did not discuss any of these changes beforehand, and that's the same with the whole part about validating points. There's just nothing in there as to whether they did or did not discuss certain things. I encourage people to read these missives on their own. I know you'll probably disagree with me, but this strikes me as an uncharitable reading of the missives at best based on little to no evidence to support it.

Quote
Quote
I also haven't seen any dialogue with him about going to the Underdark

If Tav is present with their companions on the dock, the only choice that unlocks the endings with the Emperor is: "I'm a mind flayer. I'll do whatever I please." Choosing to hide, in the Underdark and Cie, prompts a comment from him, but he does not offer hosting (except for Karlach? Then why?)

I can't comment extensively on this specific dialogue, but one thing I will say is that I don't think a single line of dialogue undermines the entirety of my analysis into this character and his relationship to the pc. Lot's of things about the ending were rushed, maybe that has something to do with it? Maybe he truly has no interest in the Underdark? The ending of the game has many forks depending on various encounters, dialogue choices, actions, etc. I don't have a concrete answer here. What I will say is that when I wrote my analysis of this character, I drew on the larger picture of the character as a whole, or at least as whole as I could possibly get. I believe this whole picture shows us a complex and humanizing view of The Emperor and his relationship to the pc.

Quote
Quote
You meet Omeluum long before knowing the Dream Guardian is The Emperor, so I don't know why he would comment on him then.

The Emperor did not react during the adventure because he was focused on a single goal. However in the end, he might have desired a closer relationship with Omeluum because he is part of a "scholars network", possesses knowledge that could be useful, and has also evolved away from the influence of an Elder Brain. Whatever bond the Emperor forms with humans, I don't believe it could ever replace what he could forge with another illithid.

Having The Emperor comment on Omeluum could be interesting, but Omeluum is part of the Society of Brilliance and The Emperor is part of a black market syndicate. I don't see where his lack of interest in them is particularly surprising or significant. As far as his bond with a human (or elf, half-elf, dwarf, etc.) I've already mentioned the solo ending in which he confesses that the pc is important to him, and while it's possible he never could forge the same kind of bond with a human, it's not impossible that his bond with a human could be just as important to him if different than the bond he could have with another illithid. What I like so much about the solo ending is that The Emperor has this vulnerable moment with a human who wasn't his thrall, wasn't a source of food, wasn't merely a means to an end, and it's new to him. This opens up some wonderful potential for additional writing should the game ever have a definitive edition. Believe it or not, a lot of fans of The Emperor recognize that a cross-species relationship with an illithid would likely play out differently than a romance with one of the companion characters. Speaking for myself, I can absolutely see a fleshed out romance in which the pc has more relationship building moments with The Emperor, but if they don't transform at the end, their relationship remains less defined and more open ended because this is such new territory for both of them, but especially The Emperor. And that could still be a very compelling and satisfying romance to tell.

Quote
Quote
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "all the little nice sentences are reserved only for the group leader who didn't commune with the astral tadpole"

Sorry for inaccuracy, I'm referring to the additional sentences we receive in certain scenes, at least the following ones:
"You have shown me great empathy. We are closer now, close enough - I hope - that I can ask you to reconsider your position regarding your physical form."
"I know it is no easy choice for you […] accept just a touch of illithidness. […] the more illithid we both are."
"You should reconsider your attachment to your physical form. You have seen what an illithid can do. You have experienced the pleasure for yourself. It would make us even more compatible."

If we are already half-illithid, theses sentences are not replaced by other dialogues or opportunities to share something with him. He couldn't care less even if he is satisfy that we are taking this path.

It's true that there is less dialogue if the pc takes the astral tadpole, but it's not that there's no dialogue at all. He is very complementary when you embrace any tadpole powers, and overtly complementary when you take the astral tadpole. It would be nice to have additional dialogue options, but assuming it's because he couldn't care less, I would say is another uncharitable reading of the text. I don't think there's anything to suggest he couldn't care less when he's been wanting you to embrace the tadpole powers since act 1.

Quote
Quote
I don't agree with the theory about him showing himself half naked because his outfit is intimidating. I don't recall him ever mentioning his outfit.

Indeed it's not stated, I believe this because the choice of camera angle is consistently oriented towards reinforcing the intimidating aspect of this character (more "neutral" angle in scenes where he appears vulnerable and only one overhead view, I think, when he is cornered by the Gith), and the fact our avatar regularly has a bewildered, somewhat frightened expression in interactions with him, while over time, an increasing number of responses invite to humanize him.
I interpret this as a deliberate narrative to play with our expected fear, then gradually draw us closer to him. It would have been probably easier for him to keep coming as the Guardian anyway, but the fact that he doesn't appear half-naked initially in this form might mean he intends to pack the experience that he is about to offer to his Illithid nature rather than just a "gift" or sharing moment.
He could have communicated positive, inspiring thoughts from the perspective of an illithid, or to demonstrate a method to solve a problem that seemed insoluble while he were working with Stelmane, but he chose to speak of memories of his "former self" and revealed his illithid side only as a threat if the conversation turned sour. It's as if he didn't want to give a chance to be known (even to a half-illithid avatar) yet simultaneously having to make the last effort pushing further the leader to align with his desires.
(Given the narrative presented, it seems that players are expected to strongly resist using the tadpoles, particularly the one from the Astral plane.)

I think I kind of understand what you're saying here. I think this is a good time to maybe talk a bit more about his role as a monster in the narrative. Monsters in stories always represent some kind of anxiety for the audience. That doesn't mean that they aren't also a unique character. The Emperor, as an illithid, is supposed to represent our own fears of becoming a monster, of body horror, of losing ourselves. What makes The Emperor so interesting is that he is so much more than just a monster even if he has done monstrous things. He's this regal and intimidating figure, but he's also capable of vulnerability. We are meant to challenge our perception of a monster and also ourselves. I think to interpret this as some kind of 4-D chess strategy on The Emperor's part is to not understand how these kinds of narratives are generally structured and progress. Also, I just have to add that he appears half naked because this is very obvious seduction scene. Astarion does the same thing early on when he comes out of the forest Twilight-style to seduce Tav. (I'm not saying that's a bad thing, those books were wildly popular for a reason).

Quote
I may perceive a sort of dissociation between how the Emperor is portrayed on screen and how is depicted through the text's construction, considering how he delivers information and acts. It's as if each team involved in its creation had only partial information and steered it in the direction of their interpretation. Swen and those who worked on the Emperor's personality undoubtedly encountered significant challenges in ensuring its preservation throughout the entire project.

I've talked about how I believe there was discordance in the writer's room, though I can only speculate on the extent. I likely won't be adding anything else to this thread because I do feel like I've said everything I need to. I believe I've made a wholistic, thorough, and well-supported analysis. There's no possible way I will be able to change the minds of everyone who reads my original post and responses, (that's an impossible standard anyway), but I hope that those reading this will be able to see The Emperor in a different light than perhaps they were able to before.

Also, I hope I made a compelling argument as to why we need more choices when it comes to that critical decision of who to side with at the end of game.