Even in the epilogue party AA will say and I quote "This power would be nothing without you." Doesn't even matter whether he means it or not. He still says it. He's quite convincing too. It's given even more weight if you talk to unromanced AA at the epilogue party, where he clearly states everyone he knows would kill him if they had the chance. It seemed painfully obvious to me that he put on a show of seeming like his life is great, but it really sucks. He has no one without Tav.
I don't think that Astarion looks offensive in kisses, he looks hot, especially if we consider kisses along with phrases after them, for Astarion it's fun, I really like it, and I would like this emotion from our character, not a scared expression. But I understand that not everyone likes such actions, so it would be good if there was a choice of what actions Astarion would do with our character.
I don't think that Astarion looks offensive in kisses, he looks hot, especially if we consider kisses along with phrases after them, for Astarion it's fun, I really like it, and I would like this emotion from our character, not a scared expression. But I understand that not everyone likes such actions, so it would be good if there was a choice of what actions Astarion would do with our character.
"hot" would be if he'd, like, licked the blood off Tav's lips or if he'd lifted Tav off his knees himself. The problem is that the slapping and rough shoving is exactly the intentional humiliation of the character and the player, to emphasize that Tav is just a victim and a thing. It's not kissing anymore. And it's no longer a romance.
I don't think that Astarion looks offensive in kisses, he looks hot, especially if we consider kisses along with phrases after them, for Astarion it's fun, I really like it, and I would like this emotion from our character, not a scared expression. But I understand that not everyone likes such actions, so it would be good if there was a choice of what actions Astarion would do with our character.
I definitely agree with you. I actually do like the kisses as I've said before. The only thing I dislike about them is Tav's expression, because they don't fit my character and they make Astarion seem like he's acting out of character by treating Tav in a way they don't like.
I understand that most people will be satisfied if they change Tav's facial expression. Because of this, I feel helpless, because even in such a minority as AA fans, I still find myself in the minority. It is clear that if the game developers change something, what is most likely is the expression on Tav's face, and people like me will never be heard again. Romance with the Ascended Astarion will be killed for me forever. Because if he can only love the player's character in one way, then it really is not love at all, but exactly what the screenwriters are trying to impose. Of course, it will be possible to accept this, and admit that yes, that's what he is. Incapable of love, condescending, and disrespectful of his partner. Except when "you want to degradate yourself," because in that case everything fits together. But as I understand it, it's a kink, and it just can't fit everyone. I write through a online translator, not knowing the language, it certainly makes it very difficult to express myself, I hope I didn't offend anyone. In short, if that's all he can give, then in my opinion it's not love. Maybe the screenwriters wanted to convey this, probably even, but I never interpreted it that way for myself. Patch 6, in addition to deny the players of agency, with these kisses, also greatly narrowed the possibility of interpretation, not to mention the fact that it upset and triggered many people.
I understand that most people will be satisfied if they change Tav's facial expression. Because of this, I feel helpless, because even in such a minority as AA fans, I still find myself in the minority. It is clear that if the game developers change something, what is most likely is the expression on Tav's face, and people like me will never be heard again. Romance with the Ascended Astarion will be killed for me forever. Because if he can only love the player's character in one way, then it really is not love at all, but exactly what the screenwriters are trying to impose. Of course, it will be possible to accept this, and admit that yes, that's what he is. Incapable of love, condescending, and disrespectful of his partner. Except when "you want to degradate yourself," because in that case everything fits together. But as I understand it, it's a kink, and it just can't fit everyone. I write through a online translator, not knowing the language, it certainly makes it very difficult to express myself, I hope I didn't offend anyone. In short, if that's all he can give, then in my opinion it's not love. Maybe the screenwriters wanted to convey this, probably even, but I never interpreted it that way for myself. Patch 6, in addition to deny the players of agency, with these kisses, also greatly narrowed the possibility of interpretation, not to mention the fact that it upset and triggered many people.
Florika, I think many AA fans understand your problem, I also encounter this problem among my acquaintances. Here I am writing for at least 10 people with whom I communicated closely. And all 10 agreed that the choice "gently" is necessary. I also agree with this. Gently - roughly - that's what the Ascended Astarion could do. It's not new. It's what the release gave us on the night of the turn. That's what the epilogue gave us when Tav says "My love" to the Ascended Astarion after six months. How could it be in Tav's answers in general, if Astarion did not give Tav real pleasure, and Tav was scared of kisses and did not like the "rude" option, but AA do only that. No way. I remind its a fanservice for Valentine's Day.
Florika, I think many AA fans understand your problem, I also encounter this problem among my acquaintances. Here I am writing for at least 10 people with whom I communicated closely. And all 10 agreed that the choice "gently" is necessary. I also agree with this. Gently - roughly - that's what the Ascended Astarion could do. It's not new. It's what the release gave us on the night of the turn. That's what the epilogue gave us when Tav says "My love" to the Ascended Astarion after six months. How could it be in Tav's answers in general, if Astarion did not give Tav real pleasure, and Tav was scared of kisses and did not like the "rude" option. No way.
Exactly. What we have now is illogical, does not correspond to history, introduces cognitive dissonance and disrespectful to us as consumers.
I recently came across an interesting article "The Trauma of Every Baldur's Gate 3 Companion Explained", where the author discusses the trauma of every companion in BG3. There's nothing in it about Astarion that we don't already know, but it might be interesting to read about the other companions (some of them I didn't realize were all so traumatized). And of course, "The game delves into the cycles of abuse and shows how victims can either heal and remove themselves from the cycle or perpetuate it onto others". Yes, please, dear developers, it's all very exciting, but for God's sake, remove the traumatizing content and don't try to demonstrate the work of this wonderful "cycle" on real people.
It's interesting to consider this article on injuries in conjunction with the older and more famous article "Baldur's Gate 3 Developers Ex...s, and Making the Best RPG of 2023". We can assume that some important idea behind the game was to showcase certain injuries of game characters and present their "good/bad" endings in terms of some sort of "new path" or "continuation of an old one". How this fits in with how a particular player perceives the world - in terms of "drama" or "realism" (i.e., as a classic RPG and wants to do well for their favorite character at any cost) is, of course, a separate field for discussion. For me, as a simple and pragmatic person, it is important for Astarion to be healthy, well-fed, walk around with a satisfied and proud look (which he generally does on the path of Ascension, so, in my purely personal opinion, Astarion quite approves of such a "low-spiritual" approach), not to be forced to "hide in the shadows", redeem his vampirism, burn in the finale and take on other joys of the "path of salvation".
I used to like the "burning ending" option (forgive me those who go both ways and those who play UA and hate that ending), not in the sense that it's nice to see it on video (it's very hard to watch) or that I'd like to see it in my game (I'd rather throw the monitor out the window - it would be much more optimistic and fun), but in the sense that the game seemed very realistic to me. The game showed the price of naivety, of believing in "do good and everything will be fine" stories, the game became much closer to the real world, where sacrificing your own interests will most likely result in you just sacrificing your own interests and getting nothing in return. Where so-called "friends" will turn out to be just temporary traveling companions, who will ridicule your pain and go out for a fun drink, because the common problem (the only thing you had in common) is solved and they don't need you with your skills anymore. In case you, like Astarion, don't "fit" into their bright and beautiful world. Yes, I know these companion lines are ruling now, it can't help but be praised, but overall, the "burning ending" is unlikely to go anywhere from the game, it's worth looking at realistically too. And the meaning of "power" in the game world for me for the first time showed its importance, it's not just about "being able to take down your enemies with more power and strength", the ability to show the game bosses "who's the daddy" or whatever, it's about not being a victim. So Astarion doesn't have to be a victim in the first place.
Unfortunately, the option of "dark healing" is mercilessly cut by the plot. Of course, from the point of view of realism of a work of fiction, the variant "to drink from the skull of his enemy", to take revenge, "the former slave becomes a master", to get new opportunities and freedom from restrictions - this is exactly what raises the hero's sense of self wonderfully. There are legends and tales of different peoples in the culture of mankind about how the humiliated and insulted raises his head, overcomes, conquers and takes from his tormentor everything that belonged to him. And everything that could belong to him. "It's perfect." Astarion seems to be just such a hero in the Ascension scene. And having a loyal lover by his side who is willing to go with him to the end, who loves and accepts him completely for who he is - vampire, outcast, predator, sunshine, charming and dominant, narcissistic and deeply sensitive and feeling, capable of the kind of love that many have never dreamed of, a lover who gives him the same kind of love, isn't that love capable of healing? Not if "I want your body." Because "I like to degrade myself."
Originally Posted by Florika
Because if he can only love the player's character in one way, then it really is not love at all, but exactly what the screenwriters are trying to impose.
But come on, a good work of fiction is good because it leaves a lot of options for interpretation. If it does. A lot of players who are into other things in the game will never notice any "drama", injuries and so on. They'll try to have sex with all their companions, have more fun, and be satisfied either way. "Don't like it, don't ascend him." It's like some toy on a store shelf, twirl it from all sides, like it - don't like it, buy it or don't buy it... Someone loves drama, trauma and that's the most appreciative audience - great, they already have all the options to feel and see what they like. But - please don't force people to forcibly follow some idea, no matter how interesting and unusual you think it is. Leave room for RPGs, for roleplay, for players to decide for themselves what's best and do it the way they want. You can't throw the noose of the "abuse cycle" around the necks of real people and traumatize them. Traumatized Astarion is traumatized fans, you can't do that, sorry, you can't do that. Lower the "trauma degree", dear Larian, please. This is a game after all, there should be room for joy and a happy ending, even if that ending is "officially bad" and the happy ending is seen by "drama-unaware" players.
Marielle, very interesting post, thank you for your perspective, I largely agree, although I like both routes about equally. It is clear that other players can laugh at us, at such a serious attitude to such a small aspect of the big game as romance. But it's not just about romance per se and these new kisses, there's a discrepancy in the narrative within romance behind it, and about limiting role-playing within a role-playing game. The game used to have many interpretations, including a cycle of cruelty or a path of catharsis, albeit an evil one. However, after patch 6, the game now offers only one perspective, limiting our view to a single angle. Especially because of Tav's reaction, but also because there is only one option, reducing everything solely to a kink, but also for other trivia. For example, there was any consensus on Astarion's new phrase "You are my favorite"?
It is clear that other players can laugh at us, at such a serious attitude to such a small aspect of the big game as romance. But it's not just about romance per se and these new kisses, there's a discrepancy in the narrative within romance behind it, and about limiting role-playing within a role-playing game.
Exactly. I also find it more than a little disturbing that the real life harm to some players (distress at the very least) caused by the kiss animations has been trivialised or in some cases completely discounted by people arguing against a change.
Originally Posted by Florika
...there is only one option, reducing everything solely to a kink, but also for other trivia. For example, there was any consensus on Astarion's new phrase "You are my favorite"?
I found the suggestion that players who allow Astarion to Ascend are only doing it to satisfy a kink rather insulting personally. It insults both the player and Astarion; he is a wonderfully complex character and players have many reactions to him and many different reasons for those reactions.
The phrase 'You are my favourite' has quite rightly come in for a lot of criticism. It makes absolutely no sense. Favourite what? NPCs only have one romantic partner. Astarion has no other spawn/consorts.
...there is only one option, reducing everything solely to a kink, but also for other trivia. For example, there was any consensus on Astarion's new phrase "You are my favorite"?
I found the suggestion that players who allow Astarion to Ascend are only doing it to satisfy a kink rather insulting personally. It insults both the player and Astarion; he is a wonderfully complex character and players have many reactions to him and many different reasons for those reactions.
The phrase 'You are my favourite' has quite rightly come in for a lot of criticism. It makes absolutely no sense. Favourite what? NPCs only have one romantic partner. Astarion has no other spawn/consorts.
Yes, that's exactly what I meant. It seems to me that no one ascend Astarion just for the sake of a sex scene or a kink, even those who are genuinely interested in it. So it's not the players who reduce everything to this, the narrative is trying to impose it on us.
Moralists are so pure and untainted, but they repeat one single maxim like a mantra, terrorizing real people and rejoicing when we suffer, like, "Serves you right, you got what you deserved."
In the next playthrough, I chose spawn to know how things were going there. I understand the choice of those who do this, he is comfortable and convenient for a partner, but this is not for me, he is very depressed, although he tries to hold himself proudly, but he has clearly suffered. He was persuaded to do something that he did not want to do, or it happened by accident, but he regrets it, but there is no choice and therefore he adapts. In this relationship, I see Astarion as that night, if he is forced to have sex, such an unhappy expression on his face. It seems to me that he does not accidentally say only one phrase about what we are to you. The first part of this sentence seems to be true... Nothing special... And there was such pain at the docks in general, I would never choose such a thing for him, and we just stand there and do nothing, what? Well, in the tavern, these words of his say a lot, it was recorded before the 6th patch, but nothing has changed with the 6th patch, he is sad, resigned to his fate, completely dependent on us.
[video:youtube][/video]
If you break up with him, he's just stunned, he literally sacrificed everything for us, and we leave him. I think he will never forget what our character did, what he deprived him of, even if it happened by accident. When there is a break up in the epilogue, he says so, I will not let anyone else decide for me, everything depends only on me, this is an approximate text.
This is how I see it too, well said! In the video you posted you can clearly see how sad he truly he is - his head down, slumped shoulders, cynical question what happens next, like he's expecting Tav to dump him.
He doesn't grow organically into a "better", moral person. He never changes his mind about ascension. When you choose, the only time when he can stay as spawn, actually accept that and stay in your party is when you persuade him and even that is only dependent on pure luck - a dice roll. If you fail he tells you he doesn't want to live a half-life, hiding in the shadows. This is how he truly feels about his existence as vampire spawn. His agreement to abandon the ritual is basicly him realising Tav won't help him, so he gracefully accepts his "sealed fate", goes into full copium mode and buys the hero koolaid, because there's nothing else he can do to make the ritual happen and to change Tav's mind. He also tells Tav everything someone with a hero complex would want to hear to convince them he's ok with what happened.
You can see a lot when you compare their body language and words.
As I posted before:
UA: (right after killing Cazador) I want to feel alive again. (during the graveyard date) It's time to try living again.
AA: (right after ascending) I feel alive, hahaha! (unromanced in the epilogue) I've been rediscovering what it means to be alive - more or less.
I'd also like to add this:
Tav during the ritual choice: I want you to live a life you're proud of. You can't be proud of this.
Friend Astarion in the epilogue: Without the protection of our little friends I was just an ordinary spawn again, burning in the sun. I left the dock and found refuge in the shadows until night fell. I'm sorry, I didn't seek you out that night. I felt... ashamed. Like I'd lost everything, just as you claimed your victory. I didn't want you to see me like that. But time lent perspective. [Proceeds to be very theatrical, which we already know is his trick to deceive us and distract us from his real feelings] It wasn't your victory, it was ours. And for all I've lost, I had gained so much more. I had freedom, strength - a whole new life. And it was time to live it.
AA after turning Tav into a vampire: Everything lies ahead. I can see my path to a waking dream. But first we must manage the trifling matter of the brain. Perhaps it will listen to us. Perhaps it too will serve. Tav: So one tyrant replaces another. AA: Precisely. I'm not ashamed, dear. I won. We won.
What is also interesting is that AA declares wanting to spend eternity with you right after you've helped him ascend, and treats you like his spouse, but UA never even defines the relationship. You're just a person he cares for for the first time. You're more like his friend, rather than a partner.
Originally Posted by Florika
For example, there was any consensus on Astarion's new phrase "You are my favorite"?
"Newbon and Larian Studios writer Stephen Rooney didn’t want Astarion to be interpreted as simply the “traumatized” character, Newbon said. They wanted him to be as complex and layered as a real person. Trauma was simply one part of his story, yet it informed many of his behaviors".
The trauma of slavery in general is there for Astarion. He hates being controlled - in any sphere.
But unfortunately, when it is discussed, one forgets about his past - whether he remembers it or not - the idea of the character and the line of reasoning changes. He was a man with power who cleansed the city of "trouble makers" probably "barbarians" included. He was on top and he fell. His "fall" added to his fear. He wants to be on top again, even more fiercely.
Astarion Original. Bear: Tell me your story. Astarion: Wealth, power, vampires, crypt...
It seems to me that no one ascend Astarion just for the sake of a sex scene or a kink, even those who are genuinely interested in it. So it's not the players who reduce everything to this, the narrative is trying to impose it on us.
Yep. And the narrative (script or animation) of patch 6 - all Tavs suddenly detesting their romance partner - at least can congratulate themselves for giving many people PTSD flashbacks.
Originally Posted by Ametris
He doesn't grow organically into a "better", moral person. He never changes his mind about ascension. When you choose, the only time when he can stay as spawn, actually accept that and stay in your party is when you persuade him and even that is only dependent on pure luck - a dice roll. If you fail he tells you he doesn't want to live a half-life, hiding in the shadows. This is how he truly feels about his existence as vampire spawn. His agreement to abandon the ritual is basicly him realising Tav won't help him, so he gracefully accepts his "sealed fate", goes into full copium mode and buys the hero koolaid, because there's nothing else he can do to make the ritual happen and to change Tav's mind. He also tells Tav everything someone with a hero complex would want to hear to convince them he's ok with what happened. (...)
Friend Astarion in the epilogue: Without the protection of our little friends I was just an ordinary spawn again, burning in the sun. I left the dock and found refuge in the shadows until night fell. I'm sorry, I didn't seek you out that night. I felt... ashamed. Like I'd lost everything, just as you claimed your victory. I didn't want you to see me like that. But time lent perspective. [Proceeds to be very theatrical, which we already know is his trick to deceive us and distract us from his real feelings] (...]
Well said. You explained, what I felt. He actually behaves very humanly. Sadness at the loss, shame at his weakness. And it's nice when other people go down this path and like this story.
Originally Posted by Ametris
Tav during the ritual choice: I want you to live a life you're proud of. You can't be proud of this.
Why does this remind me of something else? Ah, your list You should add this line hihi.
Originally Posted by Ametris
Originally Posted by Florika
For example, there was any consensus on Astarion's new phrase "You are my favorite"?
It is. "You are my favourite... to traumatize, after all!" (evil laugher in the background somewhere faaaar away). At least, the animation of Astarion is so evil, I can roleplay it as his sadistic mockery. . "You are my favourite to inflict pain." - Tav: "O, thank you, Darling. I pretend to be suffering, angry and willless so that you can enjoy even more, my sweet darling with a gross sexual disorder and amnestic episodes."
“I would, thank God, watch the universe perish without shedding a tear.”
Marielle, very interesting post, thank you for your perspective, I largely agree, although I like both routes about equally. It is clear that other players can laugh at us, at such a serious attitude to such a small aspect of the big game as romance. But it's not just about romance per se and these new kisses, there's a discrepancy in the narrative within romance behind it, and about limiting role-playing within a role-playing game. The game used to have many interpretations, including a cycle of cruelty or a path of catharsis, albeit an evil one. However, after patch 6, the game now offers only one perspective, limiting our view to a single angle. Especially because of Tav's reaction, but also because there is only one option, reducing everything solely to a kink, but also for other trivia. For example, there was any consensus on Astarion's new phrase "You are my favorite"?
I assumed it was like a "favorite dish", across the board. Or as Astarion calls "my favorite traveling companion" at the beginning of their acquaintance, but a lot has changed since then, they have a deep unbreakable bond, a reference to the beginning as a tease. He's prone to that kind of teasing. Anyway "My sun" - deep tone, would be much more interesting for the Ascended Astarion's love phrase. "My heart" - because he stopped and Tav gave it to him.
I assumed it was like a "favorite dish", across the board. Or as Astarion calls "my favorite traveling companion" at the beginning of their acquaintance, but a lot has changed since then, they have a deep unbreakable bond, a reference to the beginning as a tease. He's prone to that kind of teasing.
That's kind of how I interpret it too, because if I interpret it any other way I'll get mad. Like if AA is supposed to be possessive & toxic, just wait I think he's got "others" I'll get REAL toxic lol.
I still don't like it. It's a dumb line and makes no sense. They need to remove it. Does his line of "Can't get enough? I'm not surprised." still trigger for AA? I don't think I've heard it since the Patch and again, it still fit so PERFECTLY for him.
I assumed it was like a "favorite dish", across the board. Or as Astarion calls "my favorite traveling companion" at the beginning of their acquaintance, but a lot has changed since then, they have a deep unbreakable bond, a reference to the beginning as a tease. He's prone to that kind of teasing.
That's kind of how I interpret it too, because if I interpret it any other way I'll get mad. Like if AA is supposed to be possessive & toxic, just wait I think he's got "others" I'll get REAL toxic lol.
I still don't like it. It's a dumb line and makes no sense. They need to remove it. Does his line of "Can't get enough? I'm not surprised." still trigger for AA? I don't think I've heard it since the Patch and again, it still fit so PERFECTLY for him.
I look at it a little differently. He showing some polygamous, polyamorous stuff. Eternity is long. So, well, maybe. Tav is going to be the special one he walked this path with anyway (oh, or the writers write it as NOT special) Minthara's remarks, and AA's in the epilogue, say otherwise. His complicated painful history disposes him to have fun with others, but only one person will be close to him. That's why a book about a vampire bride is so good. A "partner in eternity" with whom you can share everything. Tells the nuances and different sides. The intrapretation is like a reference to the beginning, fun though. But it's pretty vague. Still the phrase in general, well, it's weird. No one's here right now. (it would have been weird even then).
I agree about the "Can't get enough? I'm not surprised," perfect for AA.
In general, the downside of the update is that they gave something, but what the player already liked was taken away, (although there is an option to combine) and the new what they gave is bad and sloppy on dozens of levels.
I would just want something more romantic and intense that emphasizes their eternity together.
Does his line of "Can't get enough? I'm not surprised." still trigger for AA? I don't think I've heard it since the Patch and again, it still fit so PERFECTLY for him.
It doesn't. Basically all the pre-kiss lines have been replaced with the new ones. The post-kiss lines are the same as always though, and the contrast is too obvious, so they need to add new ones for AA for sure. Haven't checked if there are any in the datamines, IIRC there aren't.
It's because Larian wants the players to know that by having Astarion embrace his vampirism, which Larian equates to queer male sexuality because they see all queer men as rapists and predators, he becomes fully and completely evil.
Sven Vicke wants you to know that a proud queer man is nothing but a heartless monster who will treat his "lover" like a possession and slave, because Sven Vicke is a homophobic stain.
![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/1z9h6sP/image.png)
You should add this line hihi.
"You are my favourite to inflict pain." - Tav: "O, thank you, Darling. I pretend to be suffering, angry and willless so that you can enjoy even more, my sweet darling with a gross sexual disorder and amnestic episodes." 