Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion

No, I would say destroying it is a good ending, no matter how you handle your romance with Astarion, you could even break up before it, and enter the fight without a romance, so why should this matter. It would not make any sense, to replace the new Epilogue and the party scenes.
Unless they want to add an extra ending where Astarion takes over the world. Why not. - (No, I'd assume they mean the main story evil endings that don't have much content.)

Oh man, me too. I have never really thought about updates as beeing bad before this.

I did a rollback to Patch 5 and it somehow didn't feel right, maybe because we do not know their intent with the future for Astarians romance? It has tainted everything for me, I hope you manage to play it if you do a rollback though! It did feel nice to see the old kiss again.


It is exciting! I still live in the hope that they will do something about the kisses and how Tav looks and behaves. I feel like they would bake it in with a villain update as Astarian is technically a villain. And the romance maybe is the darkest/most evil one? I haven't done Minthara, but I'm guessing she is a contender for that crown too.

Surely they will make a Tav that goes for the dark/evil romance will look more happy if they are updating/adding the evil endings? I'm actually really excited about this!


Oh, I would LOVE that!

An illithid ship party option for those determined to take over the brain? Something more interesting for the DU? That would certainly be curious...


Oh, yeah, I'm in! No more distracting him with all sorts of traveling - gotta take the city while we can!


Yeah, I'd really like that... Otherwise it's just a matter of getting the game with the fifth patch somewhere. No, really, killer updates - this is the first time in my gaming experience. It started with Astarion's facial expressions getting worse in some scenes in previous patches, he started looking scared at the goblin party, and then - ta-dam! Now we wait for the next patch with hope and horror at the same time.

I don't know if it was just me, but in one of the patches, I think 3 or 4 (I won't say exactly which one), or after some hotfix, Astarion had some confusion with his face. When Tav talked to him, he kept making a face like he was about to cry. It was uncomfortable to even approach him, he looked so pitifully into the camera every time. I never realized what it was, but it was quickly fixed, and I couldn't take screenshots to remember it.

What if they made it so you could choose to go to the epilogue by picking "I want to travel the world with you" OR by picking "let's take Baldur's gate" you get this amazing evil cutscene where Baldur's Gate is dark and foggy with the castle of Tav and Astarion visible on a hill.

I know it's unlikely, but a girl can dream.

Given how Larian have seemed to be taking Ascended Astarions route post patch 6.... I foresee turning up at the epilogue party naked and with a leash around my neck, would totally fit with their recent decision making.
I probably shouldn't even mention it if anyone at the studio reads this forum it might give 'em ideas - sigh.

I am not getting excited for any new epilogues at the moment because they haven't given us any feedback on whether or not our concerns have been looked at.
That's not to say I expect such feedback because I don't, but without it we have no way to know how they now view Ascended Astarion and it may be even worse than the patch 6 kisses.
Be pessimistic, that way you can't be disappointed - and don't allow auto updates.

@Bethra
I'm not excited either. Larian has lost my trust with their updates.
Second epilogue prediction based on current writing: the only dialogue you get with AA is "You have now perpetuated the cycle of abuse." Since they want to nail it home. Go on then.

I had that too, but for a very short time, and then the camera started switching to Tav right after Astarion's line. And at first it was possible to admire Astarion every time when approaching him... Now only after the line: "Ask me and it will be yours" such a luxury (I'm writing about it and I'm already afraid that this will be taken away too, and the camera will start jumping from him in this moment too). Then there's the pained expression on Astarion's face as he offers intimacy in Act 1.
Seeing that look on his face, no sane person would want to have sex, and instead try to find out what happened to Astarion. It can't be done, of course - Tav is either a brainless log who "wants a body" as usual, or what? Refuse and there's no romance? Mimicry while talking to Gur after Ascension has also deteriorated significantly. You can see more about it in this thread.

As always, before the big and concrete horror first come the small "bells", the precursors.


Yes, it would be beautiful... Whether Larian would want to do something beautiful for "unloved" players, or just "throw a bone" to those they probably consider "evil players" - that is, those who want more blood, guts and other pleasurable entertainment, is the question...


Yeah. And Tav should have a rat in their teeth. And Astarion will throw the rat carcass and we'll run around like Scratch chasing the ball. But actually, you're right, we're gonna have a joke, and who knows what's in their heads?


It could be worse, maybe they will remove the traumatizing content, if only for the sake of their reputation, but they will take revenge in some other way. For overdeveloped critical thinking in players, love of Astarion, unwillingness to buckle down and "respect other people's rules". Stephen Rooney isn't working on BG3 at all, he's working on the new Larian space game. The hope that Astarion's romance will be given to someone who won't at least spoil is pretty elusive.


Larian has lost my trust in general, to be honest. In the past, I would have said that I would buy any game that Stephen Rooney was involved in, but now that we see him being "helped" and "finished", I'm not ready to take that risk.

Yes, this. It was in that update when the camera didn't jump to Tav, but stayed on Astarion. In my game he made that face in general with any dialog at all, not just in the proposal of the night (no mods). Like, "oh no, you again, don't touch me, don't come near me".
I even showed it to an outside person who wasn't playing the game and he said "I think he's about to cry".


Yeah, he breaks the fourth wall here and occasionally peeks at the player. It's a head-scratcher.

Yeah yeah, I remember that too, it surprised me, but then the game updated, the camera started jumping to Tav always, I got angry and climbed in vain in the game settings wanting to get it back the way it was, then the second act confession happened and I forgot all about it.


At first, in the first act, the camera stayed on Astarion, he didn't look directly at you, but you could watch him. I would very much like to find a mod that cancels this camera jump and returns everything as it was (I think that asking Larian to give the player the ability to decide where the camera will look, no longer makes sense at all). In the second act, by the way, now quite a beautiful and passionate kiss.

I agree with the original poster. I'm not sure if the same writer was involved with the changes for patch 6 ascended Astarion, but the character I see here is not representative of the build up to him. As someone who used to enjoy the ascended path, I don't think I'll go that route any longer - it's just not the same character. I can't ever imagine that character building up how he feels about the player to just switch immediately to physical abuse. The grabbing by the throat, almost slapping the player's face and the pushing away is too much - there was nothing even remotely like that in acts 1 & 2. If that's the really the intent by ascension, so be it, but it's not for me anymore.

I'll just keep spawn Astarion I guess and add the vampire ascendant mod satisfy that vampire turning feel.

@Vexen
Well, actually, that's the "author's idea" of adding traumatizing content to the game. So that those who liked the Path of Ascension wouldn't go down that path. In my opinion, Astarion is not a different character, it's the same Astarion, it's just that in one single moment (kissing) instead of Astarion we now have a talentless "Astarion-themed" fanfic. It has nothing to do with the original vision of Astarion or his character.

Yes, it's clearly not worth going down that path now - it specifically harms the psychological health of the player. For me it means not playing the game at all (well, maybe the first two chapters, and then pause for an unknown amount of time). Mods will be, a mod to change kissing will definitely be, on Reddit modders are already writing about it. But if Larian do not fix it themselves, and the game can only be used as a base for the creativity of modders (given that not all players play on PC and can even use mods), it will say a lot about the presence of a banal conscience of the management and some basic respect for the players.

I agree with virtually every point made in this thread.

FEEDBACK:

It feels very gross when you put into context that Astarion is a victim of sexual violence, and now he’s committing forms of sexual violence.

I didn’t consent to being treated like this. I didn’t consent to being hit, pushed away, laughed at, and yanked around by asc astarion. I know my Tavs wouldn’t consent to it.

It’s hurtful because prior to Patch 6, I loved Ascended Astarion. He felt evil and dominant without feeling like I Tav was some kind of dog. If you’re into the more pushy BDSM stuff, that’s great. I’m not. I can’t kiss him as Tav anymore without my own trauma from sexual abuse getting highly triggered.

He contradicts himself a lot too. Calls Tav his treasure, his love, constantly goes on about how he wants to make sure nothing harms you and to give you the world… then he treats you like shit. he reacts to durge’s death as “twee” as if for the last two and a half acts he hasn’t been the most dedicated/devoted/invested companion in durge’s storyline. “Nothing will ever hurt you! <shoves you away if you ask for a kiss>”

Minthara is dominant and evil, she has some of the harshest dialogue, but she’s loving and tender and passionate with Patch 6 kisses and it’s so good!

SUGGESTIONS
add kink consent or remove it from the game. Otherwise give the player the opportunity to consent to kink and to receive affection
If Larian can ask my consent to fuck a bear they can ask my consent to be hit and pushed around.

To be fair, spawn Astarion also has the same reaction.

I agree so much with this.
It shows an overall lack of insight and maturity in Larian's writing if they think it's artistic to lightly throw in scenes of abuse and force you to RP it. *Worst of all* 8+ months after release, when you already trust the route they've presented in the game, and consider it safe for your triggers.
Massively poor quality control. Zero sensitivity or consideration of the audience.
Please, Larian, address the issue and fix it. SO MANY people have raised their concerns and it just feels ignored.

This author's idea made me stop playing the game. I was going to romance Gale and not-ascend Astarion in the next run, but I just can't play the game while it has these "improvements"

We were not asked for our consent. First, we were not asked about how we wanted to talk to Astarion after Ascension, it was decided for us that we "wanted his body", which, according to the idea of the "author", is obviously to "aggravate his trauma". Otherwise, how else could a person who got what he always wanted and has a loving and committed partner by his side " aggravate his trauma"? We weren't asked if we like to " degrade ourselves". Either we "like it" or - end of the romance, there's no third way. And - as a result, we were not asked if we wanted to be beaten and pushed away.

This could be in a third-rate novel that none of us would play just by reading reviews of a similar "masterpiece" from other players who would test it out and trash it with negative reviews. But what we got was a AAA class RPG.


It's not D/s at all, no one enjoys it. In the case of D/s, no matter how persistent, both partners are enjoying themselves, no one looks like a victim of domestic violence like Tav does in those kisses. So these scenes are triggers that traumatize players, and it's not even Astarion treating Tav like crap, Astarion doesn't remember anything and behaves like he did after those kisses, it's directly those who came up with and released this content treating their audience this way.


The trouble is that fucking a bear is encouraged and approved from the point of view of the author's concepts, it is a good, kind act, worthy of all praise. And deep love for Astarion is not, it is an immoral evil, and the player should be "punished" for it. To perform a "highly moral act" still requires some kind of decision on the part of the player, the player still has to voluntarily want to be a good, positive in every way bear fucker, and when "punishing" and "lowering" for a disapproved action, no one asks for consent.

I would like to add one more suggestion - dear Larian, if you are not going to work on BG3 anyway, if you have already given the rights to the characters to Wizards, do you care what happens to Astarion's story? Just let the players play with him some more for a while, get that "abuser story" nonsense and traumatizing content out of the game. Put some intern to work on the romance (without ideology and "narrative" in their head), the intern won't make it worse (it's physically impossible to make it worse, the game is already unplayable), but they can make it better. Anything above the "bottom" will be better.

So many real people already got triggered and harmed, and it's still going on, it doesn't show much respect toward other human beings and survivors of SA/DV, not to take this into account and not to finally address it. But I am very sure, there won't be any changes or addressing of this issue before the bafta game awards. If at all. It could be a scandal, if it comes out that many SA/DV survivors got flashbacks or depression by playing BG3 after the patch. I don't know what they're waiting for, just a little statement, then take these scenes out for a while to rework them to a consensual scene and enjoying and happy Tavs or facial expressions, can't be difficult, at least to give a note. I think many people affected by this no longer have trust.

Yes I agree. Those scenes are not BDSM, as long as Tav shows hatred, disgust, sadness, so these scenes or Tav NEED to be reworked, either way. Astarion's behaviour, the slap, the face/throat grabs would and could be okay, when both partner show consent. These scenes, how they are now, where Tav is not enjoying, should not stay in a mainstream game without a warning of SV. These scenes would still trigger people. Tav's facial expressions need to show consent in any cases. So the ingame choice between dominant and gentle kisses needs to be added to the "Can I kiss you" dialogue, but both variants with consent and enjoying tavs. Otherwise it would be SV.

Indeed.

Larian were given the option "gently" on release for Ascended Astarion, who did it all perfectly. It relaxes the player who needs a possessive romance.
Proving it's a "different version", he's changed, yeah. Doesn't work.
"This version" was capable of gentle kisses. Because it's not "this version" it's one character who literally quotes himself before ascension.
Gentle kisses, happy faces.

Patch 6: started adding mini bdsm at random, without a worthy revelation of that theme in the character, and if you look at Tav's face is (mini)-what-the-hell.
After "scared face kisses" Tav, 6 months later says: "I'm happy to share this with you", "My love" in the epilogue.
Same 6 patch leaving with Karlach, approaching the Ascended Astarion, Tav says "I'm sorry I disappeared. I didn't mean to leave you like that".

Meanwhile, Dark Urge, who gets high on pain and the murderer is scared when pushed.
Meanwhile, these kisses appear right after the ritual, not after the kneeling scene.

A mindless piece of fanservice that's even made obnoxious by Tav's face.

Really, it feels completely ignored. They could have said a few words like, "We'll fix kissing in the next patch". That's it. Players will calm down and wait. Do we finally have the right to know if the game will be playable or is that it's over?


I can't even start the first chapter with Astarion either, just knowing it's going to be in the third. So, at most, some old saves like the second act confession or the night of the first act out of nostalgia a couple times I've replayed it. I just don't want to part ways with Astarion like that, I'll never romance anyone else, I just don't need them, I only want to play this game because of Astarion.