Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion

If they don't fix it, it only makes sense to complain to Steam and GOG management. Larian has traumatizing content without warning in the game, players are getting psychologically injured by these scenes, and it will go on and on. Maybe Steam will at least oblige by putting a warning so that the game at least doesn't look so "fun and wonderful"?


It's interesting that this is so " works" that other developers (Obsidian), when introducing their new game (Avowed, which, however, will have no romance at all) as if to hint at failures in this area on the part of their main competitor.

I thought the words of Avowed game director Carrie Patel seemed like a subtle stiletto to BG3:

"Ultimately, I personally am a fan of making that an option, but I feel like if you're going to do it, you really, really have to commit and make sure that you're giving all to fulfilling that in a way that feels both true to the character, but also creates an engaging player experience.”

In what other game to date has a romance not been true to the character, and created an altogether less engaging experience for players? Also:

“Avowed is not a game with a morality meter”

A clear jerk to the "morality" of their main competitor's game, since Avowed is also going to be a AAA class RPG, and they'll be competing directly with BG3. Well, that's what it sounded like to me.

It really breaks the immersion I tell you that.

DUrge: "..pave my way with corpses..build my castle with bones..they should all be running.."
DUrge: "Can I kiss you?"
Astarion: "Anything for you my darling"
DUrge: "Shit, he is actually gonna kiss me, I'm gonna faint, I can bearly stand on my trembling legs, I want to die early, screw daddy Bhaals plans."


I feel like they did have a really good AA romance in patch 5 though, and I have to say I am very happy I got to experience it. It was truly the best romance in any game ever for me personally, and it's why I'm here in this forum right now.

Could be, I don't know, that's up to the ones who are affected by SA/DV traumatas to know about such things, if there needs to be a warning for this content on steam, if the game contains sexual/domestic abuse.


that's so grotesque, I love that.

Indeed it is. What can be more terrible than the kiss of one forbidden to be ascended?


Yeah, sure, I finished with the fifth patch too and was very happy with it. It was the best romance of any game I've ever played. I'm here too, because I'm hellbent on experiencing it again, with DUrge, who I initially missed by mistaking for a dragonborn companion. Was sure it's okay, I'll watch the story next with Tav, let there be something new for the second playthrough. Yeah, there will be...


A warning should be mandatory. It is required for showing scenes of sexualized violence. An R rating means that the game will have nudity and sexual scenes (not violence, just scenes), show blood and killings (again, if the killings were shown in extra elaborate detail, which they are not in BG3, there should also be a special warning). BG3 went beyond its rating with patch 6.

My last feedback to them mentioned the PTSD flashbacks etc, the fact that their own players are being harmed. I think I suggested on an earlier feedback that they ought to consider proper warnings as sexual sadism is a whole other ball game to adult sex scenes.
I also suggested the easiest and probably cheapest solution all round was to simply put back the patch 5 kiss animations that no one disliked or had any issues with, no actor recalls or new facial animations required.
While (or if) they have a rethink about how they want their players to feel when playing the game or make it a choice or whatever. Personally I'd be happy to have the patch 5 animations back and then they never touch his kisses again in the short time left before they stop bothering with anything at all.
Might try having a moan at Steam, well actually a Valve person would be likely more useful - Steam is just a host site after all, hadn't even thought about that - I didn't get the game from GoG so can't do anything there.

Oh, now, when I think about it, the reason why they censored sex scenes and are not showing too much intimate area should be to have the rating of M, instead of getting the rating of AO. But sexual violence could indeed give a rating of AO. When you look at these scenes,
and see the mixture of abuse and consent, that could be the reason for them to make it like that, to avoid the AO rating for clear sexual violence. Uhh.. I hope not them to think this way.
I can't see "R rating", or maybe, it differs from country to country. I see US rating of M.

They can also just cut up the content they already have.
-Leave the bite kiss, cut the face shove/slap. A bite kiss is a pretty common fantasy for vampire RP.
-Leave the appraisal kiss (as long as it's not too triggering to others) but reangle so we can't see Tavs face. Or reimplement Karlach's expression, which the kiss was made for.
-Cut the kneeling kiss. It cheapens the message of kneel during transformation. It seems by and far to be the least popular, and it makes zero sense with the 'silk glove approach' AA embodies in his character.

For Larian, all the content players want is already there. They just need to care enough to readjust them. Which feels like a slap in the face when they don't. It's put me off the game entirely. And I would not trust their future projects enought I buy them if they can't handle such triggering topics with the proper sensitivity.

I third complaining to platforms to at least have them put a trigger warning. Players need to be properly warned.

We are almost in the same boat then. Patch 6 hit as I was in Act 3, so I have not finished my DUrge playthrough. I have tried to go through it multiple times, but I want to kiss Astarion from time to time and it's just so bad.. My DUrge just switch personality on a dialog line every time. Nobody can tell me that is how it should be from a lore/story perspective or roleplay perspective. It's the freaking DUrge, they live for death.

And in regards to the character choosing I was lucky they had patched in the text: "you can fully costumize your character", or I would have thought it was only Dragonborn too.

It would be the most reasonable, cheapest and most convenient solution for everyone. It could probably be done with a simple hotfix. Players could play in peace, and new scenes could be reworked - change Tav's facial expressions, add an option to choose between "gentle" and "rough" for players. Yes at least just change the facial expressions and in the next patch give the player a choice when loading the patch - do you accept the new D/s scenes with Tav's facial expressions adequate to these scenes, or do you want to leave the old kiss and change nothing. Everyone, everyone is happy - both those who want new scenes with normal facial expressions and those who liked the old kiss better.


I think it's unlikely... They never explicitly showed genitalia in the scenes, though you can undress a character and see everything. Or if so, realistically speaking, Astarion would be naked in the Ascension scene (if he hadn't taken spare clothes from his inventory beforehand), because we pull him out of the ritual circle at the beginning of the battle, and when he gets into that circle, all his clothes are destroyed on him (except for the magic enchanted pants, though). But then he'd lose all his equipment, and have to spend time in battle to put on any armor, if any. And then he puts on those very pants for some reason before "On your knees, darling," even though it's supposed to be just the two of them, and Tav has already seen everything that needs to be seen. And poor Tav does what is required with bare breasts, with nothing to cover herself with (if Tav is a woman).

In all seriousness, the sex scene is made worse, more to spoil the pleasure of lecherous Tavs who want his body so badly that as many as 7000 spawns are killed.

GODS! My heart is bleeding. I need to copy my current game as soon as possible. Ahem. For god's sake! LARIAN, please don't take out the kneeling kiss,I beg you on my knees
And don't cut out the shove/slap from the bite kiss, I beg you on my knees, again. Some love these scenes (if Tav would look happy) and Astarion's behaviour! And I will kiss every toe of your foot.
I am dying from a heartattack, when they're gone completely. These kisses could be so mindblowing, just change Tav's sadness and let both enjoy, and our BDSM hearts will be more than happy.
But for everyone, who are not into D/s bring the patch 5 kiss back and let us choose! I am with you Natasy, and I feel for everyone, but I need to fight also for the people, who like the dominant kisses.

Yeah I agree. I don't want the kneel kiss cut, I like it! I just want Tav to be not scared. I would be upset if they removed the kiss entirely.

Yes, I agree, I would really like that option. Really want to keep the bite, but without that extremely unpleasant pushing and slapping. Evaluative doesn't annoy me at all, and on the forum, as I read, everyone swears by the pushing and choking (but maybe that's just the way it is for some people). Kneeling, by the way, could be made into a separate action for Tav. For example, in a separate line under "May I kiss you" insert the line "I wish to bow before you, my Lord". This could be placed instead of the breakup line - Tav and Astarion are bound forever, this line is unnecessary. Then those who want to kneel will kneel when they feel like it and it seems appropriate, and those who don't will simply not.


Oh, I sympathize with you, they didn't even let you get to the epilogue... It doesn't go any way at all in terms of story or role-playing, it's either traumatic or humiliating and hurtful. And it doesn't feel like a mistake at all - all of the victim-Tav's facial expressions are so "well" designed and thought out that there are simply no words for it. Except for intentional infliction of harm, there's no other way to call it anything else.

What about making kneeling a separate action? Or should Astarion be the one to order it? A separate action would be interesting too - and he then kind of gives a kiss as a reward as well...

Oh, I like that suggestion. If they do that I will be all for it! And yes I agree, the breakup line don't really make sense. But I get it if people want to have it.

I've seen things that if Larian wanted to they would either correct or make worse. Now they've made it worse.
The fall scandal and things that kind of hinted at their... bias? Sloppiness? Morality (which doesn't work well with Astarion).

- that terrible dialogue here
I wanna power. F me. School. F u.
"My desire to be with you forever" is a simple role play romance novel answer.

- Knees.
To me, this was immediately the ritual part. However, why not make this moment clearer than that, to show that Astarion cares about this for him when he becomes Lord, as a sign of obedience and trust. That Astarion wants that dynamic with Tav.
So Tav is already agreeing to an eternity with him. Just says no to the knees. The romance ends from the knees. 200 years of slavery, the first person who cared about him. That's silly.
Now knees are all the more just a fanservice meme, a cutscene appearing in the kiss, right after the ritual.
Maybe they didn't make much sense to anyone even then?

- Degrade yourself with him
but maybe you want to degrade and he knows it.

Try to figure out what it means.
These are not Astarion's direct thoughts, this Tav understands by wisdom checks. Narrator. Larian could add reading Astarion's direct thoughts. Other interactions.
Astarion once called killing an art. Being with Astarion "degrade yourself", if you look at the big picture. Why does this apply to the Dark Urge.
Add to that the fall scandal, toxic people on the internet morbidly obsessed with healthy equal relationships with vampires and get hurt.

- Mortal endings.
Check. There is this in itself, as an example, that Astarion agrees to wait and everything is fine, riding around Faerun, making pleasures. The elf already has a hundred to spare. Discussing it, researching it, tie it into the plot - nope. Now it's scary what the b&w-team will do with the romance.

- Larian interview. "Evil Isolation", "Horrible place (which is very powerful)", "Making Astarion evil". "Make". He makes himself evil with every line. Because he's an evil character. When the script literally says he is great to be rich, power, immortal, with the pleasures of mortals, to feel alive. What he wanted 200 years ago before his slavery.

The epilogue is good. In which Lord Astarion: you can't not hug or kiss him.
But spawn doesn't have a kiss either so, well, maybe. Okay. Minthara have.

But it was all smoothed out, balanced with something wanted to give nice things for players on the evil path. A lot of good things.

Astarion's "decadent" costume, which references the art book.
Red Dragons - with good symbolism. Some consider them classic in dnd. In Larian's video, the dragon in the service of "quality control" is red.
5 Patch was inspiring. What evil players happy to see in a romance novel is a seductive dark side. No one dares touch us, together against our enemies, happy to share everything with you, my love - just quoting Tav to AA.
And even in the same 6 patch answer when Tav left with Karlach. Implying that they have a "what we do in the shadows" nice-vampire relationship.

Now in patch 6 with these animations, the situation is on the level of terrible dialog.
The gloominess of the situation is even more so because they did it in the repetitive kissing cutscenes.

Well I simply can't do the throat grab kiss, it' was what triggered me and made me get my patch 5 game from my storage - but I appreciate that that is only me and a few others, probably not the majority.
Make the abusive kisses a choice and remove the fear would be my first choice.
But I would honestly prefer the patch 5 kisses being returned instead if they can't make the rest a choice.
But ce la vie. I won't be playing this forever and won't be playing another Larian game until at least a year after release.

It's understandable for some people not to like Astarion's shoving or choking or have issues due to their past. In the survey it was 68,2 % who like or don't mind it, and 31,8 % dislike shoving.
And 47 % want to choose, where to kneel, 53 % don't have a problem with the place. How they handle the kneeling kiss, I don't know, it's difficult, because everyone wants something different. Like, if there would be an option to choose between "gentle" and "rough" kisses, and the new kisses under "rough", if you then also need an extra dialogue for "kneeling", then you need to have more and more dialogue trees or options, maybe would be too much. O well, yes, I like Astarion to order it, like he does in the romance scene. If my Tav would ask or offer to kneel, it wouldn't make much sense for me, because Astarion needs to be the dominant part. At the end, it's Larian decision, if they change it, but the main thing is, to make it consent and Tav enjoying and not looking like hating his partner. And for people, who don't like the dominance, the old kiss from patch 5, which is, in my eyes, a fantastic kiss, I am sure, most people love it, Astarion is even touching Tav's peach.

@ Marielle: I thought that interview with Carrie Patel was very interesting and I agree with her when she says that an in-game romance should give the player the feeling of a developing relationship.
I have said elsewhere on this forum that most of the romances in BG3 seem to rush you straight to the sex bit (disclaimer, I have not romanced everyone).

It's this sort of vibe:
'Hi, nice to meet you. You look hot. Let's bang.'

It's ok, but with a lot of the characters I didn't feel any connection to them at the point Tav got propositioned and felt Tav should be saying,
'But we've only just met.'

The frustrating thing for me is that Astarion didn't fall into that category at all. To romance Astarion, he needs to be approached in the right way and as the relationship progresses we see more and more of his character revealed. It was very satisfying to play through, regardless of whether he ascended or not.
Astarion had depth. After patch 6 Ascended Astarion has depth and glaring inconsistencies in his behaviour. That is not an improvement in my opinion.

Carrie Patel made an interesting point regarding the 'Morality Meter'. I don't know anyone who plays games to be preached at or for moral improvement.
Maybe it was not the intention but it feels like Patch 6 removed removed player agency so someone could hammer home their take on Ascended Astarion (cardboard cut-out Villain) and impose it on every player who romanced him, regardless of his dialogue in-game or what sort of character the player was role-playing. That definitely left a sour taste.

Oh, I love love LOVE this idea. Kneeling as a separate action would be *perfect*!! That's such a great suggestion.

But, yes @Zayir, you're right. The best way to please everyone would simply be change the victim faces. That's something we can all agree on <3

I didn't realize it at first, and then I realized what peach were. XD

Another hotfix 23 is out. But kissing wasn't included. I read the news every time with interest, whether some update has come out, and say to myself "looks like not today dear".
Apparently we have to wait for patch 7. And the studio has Napoleonic plans.


In my opinion, the good solution.


The simplest solution. And most of the claims (if not all) will disappear.