Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion

I have only read 20% of the subject but it generates quite a controversy within me... I have just put my finger on the reason... You never know if it helps others.

The woman than I'm, almost 40 years old, with a high emotional maturity and no history of violence, totally agrees with the idea "everyone should be able to do as they please and imposing horrified faces is a mistake."

The mother with an emotionally immature teenager or young adult is afraid of the normalisation of violence. I believe, moreover, that full emotional maturity is not reached before the age of 25-30. Prohibiting a game until that age is not feasible.

The 16-year-old girl* that I was, was in love with Drizzt Do'Urden and duncan idaho. If my heroes had undergone a psychological shift in their story and became violent, would I have been an easier prey for narcissistic abusers? I don't think so... Relax, Mom! But, I cannot speak for everyone.

When I read that people who have experienced violence feel bad about the cinematics... even though it hurts, I think it's a good starting point for them to question themselves: why did they choose this path on their own and freely?

No good solution for me!

On the other hand, I quite like the way violence is handled in the scene where Astarion can be used with the drow twins. Players are not prohibited from playing the scene, but it is in the dark, nothing to see, just voical-playing, you listen and then without any vulgar demonstration (which could attract perverts), the narration leaves no doubt... you commit an abusive act even if your victim says "yes". And for those who don't understand? Maybe a starting point for a discussion!


*BG3 is officially for ages 18 and up, but at 16 I would have played it.

This isn't the business of a video game company. They are not licensed therapists. They are not equipped to handle all that comes with this discussion, and they cannot provide the support victims need afterward. They're playing with something life altering and treating it as (surprise) entertainment.

Mental health and development is not the place of a mainstream video game. Teaching abuse victims "lessons" is not their business.

Edit to add: Players were able to play the game for 8+ months just fine pre patch 6. My issue is not with the kisses, but the gross victim faces.

Because was plenty of air to roleplay Tav in AA romance for the evil couple on same page.
Showing a horror story of abuse with a vampire is hypocritical nonsense. Because Astarion is at once manipulative, dangerous, enjoys killing - but the knock-knock morality of irl abuse only goes to the door of evil.

People choose a dark romance with Astarion and choose the "evil" ending because it brings fun to play with a single man to take over the world, many thoughts and heals various wounds.

When a player is forcibly made a fool, a victim of abuse - that's unthinkable garbage.

I agree with the people who understand that this situation is not something that should be sprung on a player who is looking for fun and relaxing play, with a little romance on the side to shove lessons and moralization into their faces when the video gaming industry is not a professional psychiatrist to straighten things out when they hit things too close to reality too long after the launch of the game. We were happy with almost everything up until that point. NPCs are not real people. The game is a game and fantasy is fantasy. You can role-play. I DO NOT NEED to have lessons or moralization for a bunch of pixels thrown into my face nor need someone to tell me not to do this in real life. I am not doing it in real life and I am a HELL of a lot older than most of their customers. This was supposed to be a fun and relaxing video game. Yet, to borrow one of Astarion's lines: "They did this to me!" Not an NPC, not just another pixel. To me, the customer that paid just as much as everyone else. The human behind the keyboard. There is no justification for it. It needs to be fixed. PERIOD.

Thank you to my fellow players that do understand where I am coming from, and get that this is not only unacceptable but needs to be fixed. Not just halfway, not just a little, but completely fixed, and also a little bit of acknowledgment would be nice from the company that tried to push this onto a certain part of the player base.

Bring it back to a single player's headcanon without the poor choice graphics, either try again for something more suitable or give us back our game prior to patch 6 failure of the romance.

In a game that has full nudity and sex scenes, I think the game is well past prohibiting age. Just like they exclude nudity and sex scenes if opted out, they could maybe opt out the abuse?

I totally agree with that.
To me, saying that Spawn is just a "scared puppy" and "I'll fix that" is like pulling teeth without anesthesia. It's just that "lifeguard syndrome" can come back to bite you in real life. And either you take "it" with all the scrub, or it's not your cup of tea.

By the end of the game, Astarion is not innocent, he's still the same knave and murderer. Yes, he's learned some lessons along the journey. But to change his worldview in 4-6 months of travel? Against 200 years of slavery, a life before conversion and your nature? Well, that's doubtful.

At Ascension, he takes a step backward in his progress. But taking a step back doesn't mean stopping where he is.
At Spawn, he learns to accept himself and his weaknesses. But neither does it mean that everything will go smoothly and he won't take a step back later.
In reality, healing doesn't consist of a fast-paced run. It is small steps, and they are not always forward.

Astarion, regardless of his endings remains a vampire. With teeth. And he will "bite."
Making an innocent puppy one way and a heartless monster the other is like paying attention to the wrapper of a chocolate coin from different angles. And in the end, it's still chocolate inside.

So making AA into this kind of "miracle" like in patch 6...not logical...his lover can both take offense, and chew off your hand, and complain to both the whole group, or the Emperor to push the button in the lord's head, while you have the chance.
And where's the guarantee that Spawn won't decide to feel like the leader in the relationship later? Or he won't decide, he will be obedient? Well, who knows...

I'm only going to answer about myself. I've been hurt by people in my life, and most of the time it ultimately made no sense, really. Just life, what goes on, sort it out at best you can and carry on. In media I like certain types, "bad boys" among them. First of all because of the flaws, I don't like it too ironed out because that's not what life has shown to me. Doesn't mean I can roll with everything such characters might get up too, but the journey has much more promise, seems to me more realistic, when it starts far from perfect. Even without redemption, or even change at all, the scripted nature of a story, a fantasy, have the setup make much more sense than the whirlwind that is life. At least that's how I see it. So, when I play a video game, and they've decided to make one romance path available, I think I can trust the people behind it to have handled things as best as they could. And yes, I find it bad to have new kisses advertised for a late patch, where the player character clearly does not enjoy itself, while it seems possible to enthusiastically partake in the relationship if you never ask for a smooch ever. That does not make sense to me, most of all when such a clunky bit seems to be taken as the ultimate proof that the stupid ones had it coming by some, and the intent and the communication still remain unclear.

Then I question the idea that "it's a good starting point for (some) to question themselves". I do a lot of questioning of myself when I consume and interact with media. But because that is something that can happen. A game like this might want to say a few things, to make people think, yes. But it's a game, made most of all to be sold to a great many people, to entertain them. It's not like going to see your mental health expert, and it should be crafted with some care. When I go to see a professional to help me with dealing with my stuff, first of all it is a conscious effort on my part, and I certainly don't fire up a game to do the same, even if it (most often) makes me feel good. Second, I have someone, a professional, to listen to me and guide me through it, but I still do most of the work. And third, it certainly does not imply using trauma against me out of the blue, thank you. That's the kind of thing that gets people reported. Edit : Because I forgot a fourth important one. The professional is going to help me by asking questions, as neutrally as possible. But they are, unlike me or a game or the rest of the world, supposed to be neutral. And it's not a space and a time to judge myself or be judged by others, just to do my own work on myself. So, I can understand we're all different people, that we don't always understand each other, and so on. But, in that respect, most of all when some worked on a romance path for others to engage with, I do not think a game and the buzz around it are proper tools to do soul searching.

Were it intended (right now, looks like a stupid mistake) and really done well, if possible at all, in a "helpful" way ? I think (hope) I would be offered proper scripted tools on the way to "recovery". Everything seems fine, why not a kiss, "nope time" it seems. Maybe a question, some name calling, cast egress, debriefing, whatever ? And again, no matter the rest of the relationship and options, if this moment is supposed (again, a big if) to be the last straw for my character, I'd expect to be able to consider it as such.

And, for me, I sort of find it hard to have victims, people reliving their issues, be the ones who might want to do some soul searching there. My impression is that the marketing of a character like Astarion was not just a lucky incident. It's not like we don't have any ideas what works and on who it works, most of all after years of early access and feedback. Maybe it's not just a case of "oh, it's fine like that, why does it bother you so much, silver lining yaddy yadda". Maybe others could start asking themselves questions. Maybe I need to ask myself questions because I like to pickpocket and steal, because I kill an awful lot of people, I'm not always charitable, I even recruited Minthara the bad way once, and tried bad Dark Urge. Or it's just a game. And, knowing that, I can try to sort out what's closer to reality. Like what was the intent, why does it hurt people, and what we can actually do from there.

I'm pretty old, so I've seen a lot of moral panic about the Dark Romance genre over the years, it's nothing new and a lot of it seems to be based on the sexist assumption that female fantasies are dangerous and need to be policed. That women's brains and emotions are less stable and therefore need shielding from unsuitable influences. The idea that young women (under 25) need moral guidance in their choice of fiction is just so Victorian; I cannot believe this argument is still being put forward in the 21st century!

The idea that women deliberately pick abusive partners is also a myth (some women will experience abuse from more than one partner and there are reasons why that happens but this is not the place to discuss it).
I'll just say this:
In real life, abusive partners start out by being nice, usually very nice. And they don't say upfront that the flowers, compliments and fun times are going to be gradually replaced with contolling behaviour and verbal and physical abuse, because nobody would ever date them if they did.
It is a parent's job to bring up their children (not just daughters) with enough confidence and self-worth that they know they should never tolerate abusive behaviour from anyone. Good parentling cannot come from a video game and it shouldn't.

If you don't believe this line of argument is sexist, just consider why not one person has been agonising over how Ascended Astarion's behaviour might be influencing young, vulnerable, hetrosexual males (because that would be ridiculous, right?).


And you would like me to consider my choices.
I don't really see why I should have to explain myself to random people on the internet but in the interests of discussion and exchanging ideas, I'll bite.

Why did I pick Ascended Astarion?
Short answer because he seemed the most interesting character out of all the companions and I thought he was a lot of fun.
I like Dark Romance, so he was an obvious choice, especially since my character was not making morally good choices a lot of the time. They complimented each other. I also picked Unascended Astarion on a play-through because I wanted to explore his character from all angles, but I never thought either version of Astarion was 'nice'.
Now I am having to look at my character looking absolutely terrified of A.Astarion when asking for a kiss and it is triggering.

And no, I don't think I am in any danger of having my terrible taste in fictional partners for my fictional characters spill over into real life.

Still going to voice " Change Tav's Face"

Decided to show support on this statement every one has some wild fantasy over some fictional man it shows we are not alone and those that fill their boring office job or bouts of insomnia make up their own head cannon to try and take their minds off the mundane.
These Fandoms are many and they can appear quite rabid so no wonder Astarion has the same issue.

" Mr Darcy" --Good Girl Vibe

Below Dark Romance :

"Damon Salvatore" The Vampire Diaries

"Lucifer" which can come out of several fandoms be it the netflix show or Supernatural and a whole ton of dark romance content.

"Homelander" (now that's a huge freaking really? but they are there) The Boys

"Lucius Malfoy & Draco Malfoy" Harry Potter

"Eric Northman" Sookie Stackhouse novels & True Blood

"Niklaus Mikaelson" Originals

"Daemon Targaryen" House Of the Dragons

"Jonathan Randall " Outlander who is an actual R3pist in the story

There really is no place in this world for people to judge a dark romance and making a repetitive scene so Visceral that those who use their Astarion romance as a getaway from their own issues be confronted with 100% horrified faces of the character they've put 100's of hours into of their life.

As said I like a bit of Dark Romance and I like both versions of Astarion I do not like seeing my creations become victims because they're trying to force a narrative AA is bad and we will make you hate you liked him.
I want to play chaotic Neutral/Evil because my life is not that !! BG3 is I can do what the hells I like and not be judged it's a single player game after all.

Maybe fan fiction would be more up your alley? That way you would have actual creative control.

Meanwhile, the game has a narrative. I guess you could call that "forced." Have you considered trying to get a job in the industry so you can force a different narrative direction?

Here


The main thing to keep you from getting queasy again is to show every character in the roleplay in a romance with any Astarion a frightened victim, especially with AA, apparently any.

Your non-queasy-to-you narrative lines are matched only by kissing a horrified, disgruntled face on February 14.
Are you going to get a job at Larian to make the AA romance line even more non-queasy, a punch in the stomach on a white day or something.

But Tav's positive responses for AA apparently don't fit your view, headcanon, fanfic about romance with AA, and narrative line that doesn't make you queasy (Tav is afraid of kneeling during a kiss).
For the narrative line of scared faces during the kiss and 6 months of abuse - nice responses from Tav and that Tav smiles in the epilogue don't fit this story and should be butchered.


Here

Frankly I don't think going through and digging up someone's old messages is healthy. I don't understand it or how it's even relevant to the conversation, in this particular case.
It just starts feeling weirdly personal and vindictive.
Maybe I'm not used to forums and this is a normal practice on them, if so do let me know, but from my point of view keeping track of what someone's written and spending the time to find it and quote it for a reply that qualifies more as a diss than a debate has something stalkerish and weird about it.

Or we can voice our suggestions and feedback on a suggestion and feedback thread ??

We're allowed to have thoughts and opinions on a route we frequently play.

I, for one, will continue to have faith that a mainstream, broadly marketed gaming company did not intend to include RP abuse for their female/queer audience to "teach them a lesson" and then advertise it on Valentine's Day. I think they value having paying customers too much.

If you do not like AA or his fanbase, have you considered not interacting with them, and enjoying your own game?

I agree with this so much.

@LIryFire

I've read your response a couple of times but I'm not sure what you're saying.

Why would I get a job at Larian? I never said his story line made me queasy.

I occasionally provide feedback of what I think does and doesn't work. I'm not sure that's the same thing as believing that "my creation" is being tarnished by a forced narrative. The most I contribute to the game is the character I'm playing and the choices I make within the boundaries of the choices offered.

I mentioned this in another post, but I do not believe you get to choose what you feel in life. You don't have a button in your head that turns off fear or excitement. It happens. There's a reason the body involuntarily reacts to a jump scare.

Some people may want to play a character that never gets scared or never shows fear. I find that unreasonable and uninteresting. Somewhat shallow, lacking depth. It's the kind of character that tends to border on the Mary/Gary Stu, and I genuinely prefer when games don't cater to that.

Who said I don't like Ascended Astarion? Are we even having the same discussion?

As far as Astarion's fanbase, I assure you that said fanbase is not a monolith when it comes to opinion. I can be a member of Astarion's fanbase and think you're totally off. Does that make sense?

Some one brought out their hissy pants my summary is basically there is a place in this world for a dark romance rather than force a victim into ones face who had been blissfully happy in their single player game up and until patch 6 if I remember rightly you don't care for Astarion and what they've done to him it pushes your Narrative.

We are all very much above the age 30 by some of the posters here especially the D'n'D crowd it's been 25 years etc.....

We know full well that AA is much more an Arse than Act 2 Astarion. AA is considered his bad ending but we enjoy playing chaos sometimes.

The biggest thing to take from my summary is it's a single player game we all make our own stories to a point a side show romance companion is purely a side show and those that enjoyed playing it a particular way should still enjoy what they play.

The correlation between Victim within a night while we are still controlled by worms with these recent changes is not making a lick of sense . By all means 6 months down the road in fictional Faerun we may becoming to regret the choices not in a single moment as it is.

Ascended Astarion & Minthara are the legit Evil options I hear no one complaining about Dommy Mommy just the bugs that come attached to her it seems the Minthara lovers get to enjoy her scenes where those that like AA get flattened with you're a victim now and suck it up attitude.

"Sexualisation of Vampires has always been a thing for women in particular since John Polidori's Vampire based on Lord Byron , The Byronic hero of sorts is undoubtedly the way to describe Astarion , Dracula by bram stoker also has it's sexualisation lets move forward to the 90's shall we with Anne Rice's Interview with a vampire and what young woman then didn't fawn over Brad Pitts Louis in the film version.

Small Jump to the Right lets hit Buffy the Vampire Slayer the TV show in particular Angel & Spike had their hordes of fans."

None of them were particularly good choices but it didn't stop their fans adoring them .

The face of Tav is the problem I'm personally fine with the rest of his animations and I can certainly see why some want the animations completely eradicated the kneeling one "Anywhere" sucks .

Therefore, the non-queasy narrative lines in JandK's presentation and the words about his "excusing" - is directly relevant to the conversation in this case. It's normal practice to point out inconsistencies in a "debate". As well as their, albeit rather drifting, position.
I'll add links to see how much it was in context. But JandK's very wording unfortunately shows nothing but bias.
I did it pretty quickly, I have a pretty good memory, especially for egregious things.
All the more so, the conversation is about the same thing. The narrative line of abusive behavior that needs to be shown properly and realistically.
Also the strange attitude towards the whole Astarion thing and the romance with him, which remains a mystery.

I don't know how Tav's frightened disgruntled victim, the main narrative line that JandK suggests Ghostsecurity29 changing by getting a job works, when that narrative line breaks down about Tav's three responses and only exists in JandK's headcannons.

Ok, well. Let's get back to why we would like to suggest & give feedback about the things in the game after Patch 6 destroyed our chance to roleplay our part of the story with Astarion. We are making suggestions to Larian to help them see why we do not like the changes and to also not forget that we still requesting this for the character we use to enjoy prior to the changes made to the particular path we play in many of our playthroughs.

Let's ignore those that are here to derail us from our purpose. Let's not feed those who are not here for the reason that many of us are here. Ignore the user and continue on.

Agreed with Dark Angel.
Plenty of fans would love to see the faces change. Plenty of Unascended fans also think it's illogical to make Tav scared in a repeatable action.
The mechanics and surrounding dialogue of AA shows that their relationship is consensual, regardless if it is healthy. It makes no sense to make the kisses non-con, no matter how you feel about ascension.