Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion

Also, while I'm thinking about it, I want to address this idea that AA fans are wrong to not want to be punished for choosing that path, because they chose the evil path and if you do evil things at other points in the game you get punished for that. But you don't. You get consequences. Maybe it's just because I'm in the throes of childrearing, but there's a big difference. A consequence is a logical conclusion to bad behavior. When my kid plays unsafely with a toy, I take it away. I don't ascribe an unrelated punishment that's not going to make any sense to her or help her see what she did wrong.

So going back to Moonrise Towers, if I am romancing Astarion and I force him to drink from the drow, he breaks up with me. That's not the game punishing me for making "the wrong choice;" it's a natural consequence of my actions that makes sense and is in line with Astarion's character and the choices I make. I might be disappointed, but it would be silly for me to come on here and make a post saying, "Fix it so that I can make Astarion bite Araj and he doesn't break up with me."

When I ask AA to "make it hurt," when I willingly get down on my knees for him, mere hours after helping him slaughter thousands with nary a protest, and then suddenly, my character's face gives the same one she did when she saw a literal god of death rise from a pit, that doesn't feel like a consequence because it makes no sense. It feels like the game punishing me. "See? You did a bad thing and while we technically can't make you stop playing, we can make your character look scared for no reason. Don't you feel bad?"

If they want to impose real consequences for choosing the AA path, they can. You could argue that they do. Letting a bunch of kids die and having to face their parents could certainly count. They could take it a step further and have some companions leave the party if you make this choice. I don't know. But throwing in a scared face for no reason feels dumb.

@ starryophonic

Of course, everyone plays as they want, I wouldn't come to the UA group with my judgments either, no one needs it and it's a pointless waste of time, because the time allocated for online communication can be spent much more pleasantly, chatting with friends in private or in those threads that are interesting and close. Though I'll admit, when I first watched the video of Tav pushing Astarion to bite Oblodra, I had the urge to leave a comment to that effect, since the gamer was doing it sincerely, and genuinely perplexed about the fact that "we're so delicate" and now have to replay because of the breakup of the romance. But I kind of realize that I was looking for such a video myself to see what would happen in this case, and it would be silly to berate the person who showed it to me. While I don't think that an evil walkthrough explicitly obliges you to do everything "evil", just as a character roleplay that considers vampires to be inferior creatures and tortures Astarion because of it is not really a roleplay of a "good hero" but of a cruel but conformist character who needs to "be officially good" and therefore only shows his nature when it can be "approved from above", i.e. against those who are officially considered evil. But of course, I won't get angry, I'll just watch another channel, with Tav or DU, that I will sympathize with, and leave a like and comment there.

Haven't seen the Lifetime movie but heard it was something popular, now I'm even curious, thanks. Maybe this will better help me understand the reasons for all this mass hysteria about AA romance. I agree that when a story has its own poignancy, its own issues, it's more interesting to play, more emotion and more involvement. But everything should be logical, correspond to the plot, the character's personality and the player should have the opportunity to roleplay.

I would say that there is no punishment for evil actions at other points in the game. There are consequences, which may or may not upset someone, of course. Someone follows the bloody path of Baal's son quite happily, and, say, the massacre in the grove and the consequences don't upset them at all. Heterosexual men can do any evil they want, and can perceive the consequences of their actions in different ways, not necessarily as punishment. Players who choose the "evil path" largely note the emptiness and lack of content compared to the "good path", the illiterate presentation of evil characters familiar from BG2 like Viconia and Sarevok, but specifically traumatizing content aimed at, as you said:


There's only one such place in this game. I wouldn't mind some interesting consequences either, like betrayal of companions, attacks by vengeful gur, or some other variation of the game world's reaction that was logical and consistent. The funny thing is that everything happens exactly the opposite, after grumbling a bit about Astarion after the Ascension, the companions continue to admire me and consider me a good heroine, as if there is no such thing as a love match in the game. No one's even called me a monster once, even though I'm a vampire spawn. Even after being shaken like a chicken on my knees in public, in front of everyone's eyes, it's safe to stand on my feet and immediately get my dose of rapture and adoration. It would have been comical if the choking scene hadn't been horrific in and of itself. Unfortunately, no matter how much I try to treat these scenes as comical, no matter how much I see it as a challenge, something to do out of spite, along the lines of "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger", they still create a disgusting emotional state and actually make me stop playing, if not technically, then on an emotional level. These scenes, unfortunately, are not only silly, plot-wise unjustified and look really like a ridiculous video insert from some other movie, just the heroes of someone else's story, like doppelgangers, wearing the faces of Astarion and Tav, but also cross the line where instead of "game consequences" for some game evil, it starts hurting a real person on the other side of the monitor.

I'm working (technically, lol) so I might have more thoughts later, but I just want to quickly clarify because it occurs to me that the Lifetime Movie might be a uniquely American thing, so for anyone not familiar with the concept, it's kind of a cliche genre of movies (named for a TV channel that popularly puts them on, although other channels do too) that are known for being melodramas about women in some kind of rough situation, often abuse, often at the hands of a one-dimensional husband-type. I actually have never watched one in full, not my bag, but to compare something to a "Lifetime Movie" is usually meant as an insult because they're considered pretty low quality.

Thanks for the clarification! I saw mentions of it on Reddit, and misunderstood that it was a specific movie.

Okay, morning meeting over, I am officially unleashed (until my next one).

The closer I get to the end of the game, the less I agree with the theory that Astarion's story is supposed to be about "the cycle of abuse," and therefore the kisses should reflect that (I tend to live by an Occam's Razor approach to life, where the simplest explanation is that they simply were meant to be a "sexy patch" that severely missed the mark). I mean first of all, as others have pointed out, if Astarion is ascended but not partnered, these "instances of abuse" will not be shown; he'll just be a slightly more powerful, slightly more arrogant version of the man we already knew. Are we to assume there's some offscreen spawn he's abusing? I doubt it! (That would be an amusing camp scene though, having him show up with some rando on a leash)

That's not to say there aren't red flags. Warning your lover that something terrible might happen to them if they "stray too far" is something I'd definitely see as a red flag from a real-life partner, but as has been discussed ad nauseum, plenty of people like dark romance with these possessive undertones and understand that this is not something they should accept from a partner in real life. There's nothing wrong with it. My therapist already told me that. I can get a note from her, if you need it for proof that I'm mentally healthy enough to play this route.

AA as an outright abusive prick would, at best, make for an insanely boring playthrough. What I like about it is that it's more nuanced. He's not entirely good (never has been, and no reason to think he would after rejecting ascension either, considering it's just one sloppily-written persuasion check), and not entirely evil. His "thank you for trusting me" moment the morning after he turned Tav seemed absolutely genuine. I started the finale last night, and there's that part where Tav has to make a big decision . I had heard that AA breaks up with you if you decide to do that, so I was expecting our conversation to be, "If you do this, I'll find you disgusting and it'll be over." But honestly, I was pleasantly surprised by how he approached Tav, essentially saying, "I don't think you should do this. Here's why I don't think you should do this, and I think we have better options, such as X and Y." He still talked like the same Astarion I've known the whole game (before and after ascension), but he also talked to me like I was a person capable of making my own decision. There have been so many AA moments that have surprised me, considering the warnings I got from people who prefer UA.

Reducing AA's story to one that's simply about "the cycle of abuse" IMO does it a great disservice that ignores the positive and negative consequences of both of his endings.

I'm trying to stay on track with the thread topic of "why the kisses should be changed" (sidenote: is there a good thread to actually discuss what you like about AA? Can someone link it if they have it handy?). But what it all boils down to for me is this: I chose the ascension route because I like dark romance and because I thought it would be a fun, interesting way to play the game. My Tav smiles pleasantly and genuinely when Astarion tells her they're going to rule the world side-by-side and she'll be wonderfully obedient for him. To have her suddenly look terrified because he kisses agressively is silly. Fix it. Please.

Ahhh thank you. Can't wait to dive in later!

I also think that this "cycle of abuse" theory also looks really offensive to people who have experienced abuse (e.g., as children) and may associate themselves with Astarion for that reason. If you imagine yourself in such a person's shoes, this whole story looks like: "If someone really loves you and would be willing to do anything for you, then you will... do this very thing with him, which happens in those kisses in Patch 6". With them, not with anyone else. Or you deserve to be treated the way UA was treated in the finale, then you'll listen, try to improve, wait to be condescended to, and be grateful for being tolerated all this time. And if your partner behaves "wrongly", that is, loves and accepts you as you are, completely, with all the peculiarities of character and flags of all the colors of the rainbow, then you will arrange a "cycle of abuse" for them anyway, on an empty place, just like that. Hell, it's even worse than associating yourself with a despicable, annoying, disgusting Tav who's probably disgusting to bite, and then she tries to kiss afterwards and rightfully gets punched in the face for it. About the "sexy patch", yes, the entire 6th patch was about kissing, and all players got new kisses. But if the very idea of kisses, including kissing on the knees, can be perceived as hype and desire to satisfy D/s audience, especially since they directly PR'd the knees as a promotional campaign, then how to explain such a thoroughly elaborated mimicry of the victim-Tav? This doesn't happen in D/s content, D/s emphasizes voluntariness and the subordinate should look satisfied, this can only happen in SV (sadism and violence) content.

If anything, all the recent posts there are also all about kissing because at the time it really upset everyone and was the only thing talked about, but the thread itself is about Astarion in general and AA in particular, just so you're aware and not surprised by the recent posts, any posts about AA will be on topic.

That's so true. I have a dear friend who, as I type this, is going through a DV situation. Like she literally finally left her husband last night after years of being physically abused and told that everything he did to her was her fault. She's terrified. She doesn't know what to do next. I feel so incredibly bad for her.

The Astarion/Cazador dynamic was undoubtedly meant to be abusive. Not just in how he outright tortures him, but in the way he speaks to and about him, as someone who can't help but be abused and tortured because that's what he deserves. Even during the battle with Cazador, he'll try to insult and gaslight Astarion. It's part of why I found it so cathartic when Astarion carves him up. I see so many parallels between my friend's situation and Astarion/Cazador. I see way less between that and Tav/AAstarion.

Tav didn't intend to "fix" Astarion by ascending him. I don't think either option "fixes" him, if you can even argue that he needs fixing. He was telling her what he wanted and needed, and she respected that and didn't give him some condescending lecture about being "proud" of himself. So many times, my friend would come to me and I would encourage her to leave as gently as I could. But I would never tell her she was a bad person if she didn't do it. Astarion told Tav he wanted to do the ritual. She asked him if that was really what he wanted, and he reiterated that it was. Her job wasn't to tell him not to do it; it was to decide if she would help him or not. If I was in a position to help my friend leave, to do anything else she thought was the right move, I absolutely would.

ETA because I know this might attract some anti-AA folks: No, I don't mean that I would help her harm her partner or do anything illegal, because this is the real world and I don't have magic powers and cops and laws and jail exist. If therapists existed in Faerun, or if there was a way to hire a lawyer to get out of spawndom slavery, maybe that would have been the better avenue.

@ starryophonic

It's very hard. And it is doubly terrible when a person takes the blame for what happened on themselves. And the torturer always tries to convince the victim and others that the victim is "to blame". What made me even more specifically angry about this whole "kissing" situation is that there are a number of people among AA fans who have themselves been victims of abuse in the past and have experienced triggers related to this situation. Bullers have flocked to all of this because "predators always smell blood". "Questionable" (that's putting it mildly) company behavior and such tactless attitude towards such things - and this in a game that is positioned as "fun", that teaches some "goodness", read how they communicate with the audience: "hee hee, ha ha", everything is fun, wonderful and pink unicorns running around, figuratively speaking. BG3 is a violent game, yes, it's not for everyone, many people don't notice it and perceive the game world differently, and the authors don't seem to notice it very much themselves.

Yeah, I too just enjoyed Cazador's screams, and the Ascension scene when Astarion was cutting the same scars on him. I couldn't help but admire and delight in him, it's a real pride in him. "It's perfect." I replayed that scene several times, it's a real catharsis, and I still go back to that save sometimes. Big kudos to the authors for creating Cazador's character and a special kudos to Cazador's voice actor - I've never hated anyone so much, in any game, not a single boss or "villain", it's something. And I don't see any parallels to Tav and Astarion's story at all, in Tav and Astarion's love story I see a story of wisdom and understanding. Maybe because I had a really hard time with those "knees" initially, I had to pause, I even ran for a while with unascended Astarion (it was very hard, and I don't want to repeat that experience in any walkthrough), and at first I went through this scene just through can't and through "spite your goodness". I've been thinking about it a lot, imagining everything he's been through, the way he feels, the way he perceives himself. This "you're degrading yourself by staying with him" - it hurts to the point of tears, and not being able to do anything about it, to say anything to him, to open my mind, anything at all - just tormented me. And I really wanted to kneel in front of him, really wanted to, I replayed the scene a couple of times with full awareness, the experience changed me, worked better than any psychologist, allowed me to close some of my own vulnerabilities and become softer, and maybe smarter in some ways. Tav doesn't look like a victim in the slightest, only when they pasted the victim's face on her without asking her, and then it just looks silly.

There are no police on Faerûn, no therapists or lawyers, but a much older way works quite well there, a way that is reflected in many myths and legends of mankind. Healing revenge. Defeat the tormentor, overthrow him, take everything from him. The story of eternal love, which gives strength and leads to victory - this is also much older and deeper than modern stories about "red flags". And it's far more powerful and interesting. BG3 is a game for adults, adults don't need to be taught morality, they understand perfectly well what is fantasy and what is reality. Just like they have enough reading/viewing/gaming experience to distinguish between a delusional scenario and a decent one.

Firstly, thank you so much for starting this thread as I agree wholeheartedly and plead for an Astarion Romance Update for those of us that want the Vampire Bride fantasy and from how many videos I have seen on you-tube with Astarion using other character kisses, this is wanted very much by his fans.

I really want the Vampire Bride fantasy, so let down by Tav's expressions in these new Ascended Astarion kisses, hate them, if there is a MOD to fix them, please share! I just think Larian has let down the Astarion fans, regardless of whether you love spawn or ascended or like me, want to experience both options. Astarion doesn't get as many kiss animations as other characters, you have to choose "can we talk about our relationship?" every time to get to the "may I kiss you" request, with Halsin you don't have to do that. It is a pain to ask about the relationship everytime. Come epilogue even, I could only hug Astarion once, no kiss option. But with Halsin I could kiss and hug him multiple times. Come on, this sucks! Let us that want the Vampire Bride fantasy have it please! I would love the option to choose the kiss animation, regardless of the character I am romancing. We know with MOD ring of Metamorph, that as long as the body shape matches, it is possible, so please include this option in a patch and get rid of the need to "talk about the relationship" as a step before "May I kiss you?". ALSO last kiss with Astarion before fight with Netherbrain, again, no special kiss animation at such an intense moment, whereas with Halsin for example, you get a special kiss WHY is Astarion short changed again. With all the videos on youtube with Astarion, he has to be one of the most popular characters, so why punish the fans! I love this game BUT because I love Astarion the most, this spoils my desire to play the game again, I just want what other characters get with Astarion is that so bad... Honestly the only reason I chose to polyamory with Halsin is that without his kisses, I would quit the game as I am left feeling cold with the lack of romance from Astarion. Oh and I just remembered, if you don't ascend Astarion then your reward is a cut scene on his grave, yes, yes love that he tells my Tav that he loves her, awesome moment, but what do you get, a scene of a willow tree while you make out on the dirt AGAIN, can he not think to bring a rug! (On a side note, you go from Hello Beautiful, to Yes, Love, not bad, but why cut the compliment? altogether?) However, if you Ascend Astarion, you get an awesome bedroom scene. Of course, after that, you are never going to want to kiss him again, but still, why couldn't we get the grave scene, cut to bedroom scene for those of us that don't ascend him, we just don't have the bite scene after, would that have been so hard! All in all, I love Astarion so much, he is an awesome character absolutely love the voice acting, and that you can play chaotic good with him or chaotic evil and have a great time. BUT when it comes to the romance animations, Astarion fans are shortchanged in my opinion, and I really hope Larian will reward us for our love in Patch 7 as we deserve it. AND if you like the abusive kisses, great for you, just let us that don't like seeing our Tav look frightened and humiliated, have other kiss animation options, as our fantasy romance is just as valid as yours. Also, why can't Spawn Tav have a special Bite Him and Kiss animation? How HOT would that be! He used to say "I can't wait to taste me on your lips". Astarion fans unite! Larian I love this game, love Astarion, so many of us do, please hear the pleas of his fans and reward a HUGE number of your fans with what they want, without the judgement. Gale fans that allow him to become a God don't get punished, Shadowheart fans that let her become a dark Justiciar don't get punished, please don't punish Astarion fans for letting him walk in the sun!

I'm sorry, but that made me laugh out loud.)))

Even in the scene in the woods, I always had this question. He's got had a simple and foolproof plan, but he didn't include a little blanket? What a great lover. Poor Tav gets dragged through the woods and then has to pick branches out of his privates.

Anyway, he didn't want the mat, he wanted right here, right now. AA at least splurge on a room or done the bed in the barn(Rivington), which is even more comical. AA: "I'm a whole vampire lord now, and I'm all cool, so no messing around in the mud, come on, I made the hayloft in the barn." Spawn: "Night of Love? Go away old lady, I'm in sorrow...the grave doesn't embarrass you? All right, you can talk me into it."

A night love in forest out is only beautiful in the movies.)

Yep, so true!

I read that modders are waiting for patch 7, it will have new modding tools. At the moment, I haven't seen a kissing mod for Astarion yet, I check it periodically. There will definitely be mods after patch 7 (though actually, Larian should fix this outrage themselves).

Interesting, I didn't know it was possible to make out with other companions just like that without the relationship question. Although I really like Astarion's lines that he says in response. But, the more I learn about other people's romances, the more annoying this particular bias towards Astarion becomes. Halsin and without any romance, when he spent the entire third act laying by Orin, even so, in the epilogue he looks at Tav as if he would... Overall, it's unpleasant. There are a bunch of flirtatious lines for Tav in talking to him in the epilogue, and he can be hugged. Ascended Astarion cannot be hugged at all. Not even "I love you" can't be said, there is only "my love" and that's the maximum. I saw UA's hug in the epilogue on the video and I find it kind of cold and more like a friendly hug than a love hug. There's distance between him and Tav, they don't make full body contact, and it's a pat on the back instead of a really warm and sincere snuggle - honestly, I can meet a friend from the institute like that, give him a hug and go for a beer. A friendly hug with Shadowheart even feels warmer, and she can be hugged as many times as I want, too. When I want to touch that person the most...



And I wish I could assure him of my love when he looks upset because Tav leaves him and goes to socialize with her friends. I'd love to not go anywhere, but that's impossible in the story, and Astarion, alas, doesn't know that.


I join you 100%. Enough already, really, of mocking people. They make a special stool for Shadowheart fans, on demand. Astarion fans asked many times to fix the lines in some scenes, asked for a normal kiss and hug in the epilogue, like everyone else, and instead got a Valentine's Day bullying, after which it's impossible to play.


Ha ha! Great! How do you get a night with AA in the barn? Is the room at elfsong tavern not rented? Would the cut scene be different?

Just before AA's suggestion, move to the Rivington location, there's a scene in a barn, with hay and a cart wheel in the background.Whether you rented a room or not. Scene the same as the main one, the background is just different a little bit. But he really made an effort, he brought a bedspread, if not a whole bed. XD
Did some work on the mistakes. And who said he didn't learn anything?
If you haven't rented the room in the Tavern yet and stay in the location with the castle Kasi, he'll find a room somewhere on the pier.

With Spaun too, he's somewhere in the bushes in that location, behind Mintara's tent, he'll find his grave.
The first time I saw it, I laughed so hard. Mintara didn't even go to the tent for the night, she stayed in the barn.
SPOILER.SPOILER.SPOILER.

New: Oh, another thing! It's just a nice moment.
If you don't talk to your companions about the ritual Asesdent you performed before your conversion, accept AA's offer of conversion, then in the morning, I suggest you go to Carla and pick 1 line (How dare you doubt Astarion). She's the only companion I've found to have a reaction to you. And that's nice, Carlach is super. <3
I think she can still snap AA in half. But you can't complain to her about AA's kisses.(

Thank you!


Well done! Astarion is well done and a true romantic, we'll have to appreciate his efforts!

Oh, interesting about Carlach, I'll definitely try it... Right after the barn.

Funny story, but my husband did his playthrough back in August and had no idea you could rent the Elfsong. He walked in on me playing one day shortly after I got to Act 3 and was like, "Where the heck are you?"

"Oh, I rented the Elfsong."

"You can rent a room at the Elfsong???" *shocked Pikachu face*


That's so cool! Do you know what she says in response? I can check when I get home if I have a save close enough to that time to try it, but I think they would all require me to do at least the Gur battle again.

Yeah, I know what she's saying. I didn't write a spoiler here, as I always enjoy finding something new in the game that I haven't seen before so much that I can't deprive others of that enjoyment

Could you PM it to me? I don't care about spoilers XD