Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Was BG3 overly sexualized?

I am surprised to read this. In the other thread, where I mentioned that I missed an option to address Astarion's performative/fake behaviour during the act 1 moonlight scene or (maybe even more) during the follow-up rendezvous during which he makes fun of romance and romantic feelings, you sounded like you were ok with the dialogue options given. I feel that when asking for "realism" and "logic", being given the option to address the discrepancies in Astarion's behaviour between how he normally acts/talks and how he acts in his seducer persona would be most natural starting point for a conversation about what both characters want from the relationship.

Anyway, you can tell Lae'zel that you want her to be your girlfriend (in a cringy line) and she tells you that she doesn't have interest in this, later on she does or does not change her mind. But both story lines are very frank about how they start out, no matter how other games handle this, Astarion's is just also very constrictive in how it allows you to act.

@Anska

Yeah, I'm totally fine with the dialog options in the first act scenes, I meant adding the option after the dialog to say (as in Lae'zel's case, I didn't know she had it, I haven't looked at all the other romances in detail) that I want him to be my partner, whether it's a clever or awkward line, there's no such option, although the intimacy is there, the romantic lines are there, and there's no basic definition of a relationship. But really, I think we should be done with discussing Astarion here in this thread if it's not relevant to examples of the sexualization of the game.

To bring this to a conclusion then: I think in Astarion's case, it is intentional that the relationship is not defined until the very last cinematic of the romance arc. Even after confirming the relationship (as a gameplay term) in act 2, he refuses to give it a name. "What in the world could you be?" He only finds the answer to that question after he has dealt with Cazador, when the PC becomes either his partner or his spawn. (Edit: Looking back to how this portion of the conversation started, I would assume the jealousy conversation wouldn't satisfy your needs either because as far as I remember it also doesn't offer a label, it just shows that feelings are involved on Astarion's side. )

And that is basically why in Astarion's case, while the story starts out very ... focused on physical pleasure, it is not an overly sexual story. I'd go out on a limp and say it's the opposite, especially if he stays a spawn. It's just weird, especially considering his story, that he gets picked for the sexy promotions so often. Most of it feels very "wrong" in a way.

I think that’s because many people love the voice acting. That’s artistic quality, and it counts.

Also many people love such conflicted vampire stories. It feels very close to how a love story in a Vampire: The Masquerade RPG could play out. Down to the blood bond and what happens if the vampire loses too much humanity.

@Anska

Yes, Astarion definitively defines the relationship and speaks of love forever, then when Tav becomes his consort or speaks of caring if Tav remains his partner. I don't think he'd mind, or would refuse like Lae'zel, if the player had the opportunity to define their relationship to him earlier and speak honestly about their feelings for Astarion to him and those around him. He'd be more likely to like it, even if he doesn't define the relationship himself yet, just as loyalty on Tav's part would make Astarion feel valued and important to Tav. And it seemed to me that if there was a way to refuse the companions, honestly explaining that I just love someone else, not as if I didn't like the person who was paying attention to me, as if he was bad or wrong for me, it would sound less hurtful to them and maybe Will wouldn't make such a miserable face about refusing to dance with him. But overall I agree that it doesn't have any global significance to the romance story, just extra lines for the player's enjoyment, it can just be added by mods in the future. Overall, the only thing Larian should do regarding romance is to remove some of the nasty things added in patch 6 that keep people from getting into the game, otherwise they have already done a lot and done more than enough. Other aspects of the game can be addressed.

About the "advertising" promotions, I fully support it. It's pretty nasty, demeaning to the character and the fans of the character, it doesn't add anything good to the perception of the game. Though I may not understand the "mass audience" well, maybe it does. Considering that I myself belong to a superfluous audience and bought the game with a completely different idea of what I might see in an RPG, it's unlikely that Larian wanted to attract such an audience and counted on it at all, it's not for me to judge how profitable/unprofitable it is to do certain things. Then again, considering that I would refuse to buy after seeing such "ads", especially "with a bear", such commercials can be profitable not only to attract " sex speedrunners" and "those who like to try everything", but also to repel unnecessary audience so that there will be less outrage and criticism later, so probably such ads are generally useful for the company.

That’s the freedom you actually get from the game.

You can choose to take a path that leads to a moral lesson about monogamous love winning over the worst of violent upbringings, or you can take a path that leads to "moral lessons" of sacrificing your parents for experiencing the bliss of forgetting and sex after desecrating a holy place with the blood of a heavenly being.

It’s a path you choose, and the moral lesson follows your decisions. And I love that: the game does not tell me what’s right. It has a starting situation that you can shape and it brings consequences — though with some tweaks so most choices lead to a strong outcome (not necessarily a moral one).

If you got a moral lesson you disagree with, that’s the result of your own choices — seen through the eyes of a writer in Gent, Belgium, who takes them up to create an interesting narrative with character development.
If I interpret the careers page of Larian correctly, that’s where the writing team sits.

There’s one limit to this, though: if you make a deal with the devil (regardless of whether that’s serving Vlaakith, becoming a mindflayer, joining the absolute, accepting the power of Baal, or signing a literal deal with a half-devil) then there are consequences that block paths to morality. Those choices are similar to the hard choices in Dragon Commander, though much softer.

And I love that. But maybe that’s because I personally like black irony, so you may have hit that spot on …

I hadn’t thought of that — it’s a pretty good point.

Larian’s games can be very dark (they are USK 18 for a reason¹) and repelling people early on who would be outraged at the content may be a good strategy. Better than having a streamer in white armor with a large following go into a fit of rage at discovering where their decisions led them.

¹: I’ve played Dragon Commander, it has none of the sex scenes (as far as I know) but even darker decisions — with stronger bonding beforehand. I loved that part of the game because of how much it hurts to even consider those actions.

I didn't get any freedom from the game, I'm not one of the sexual content lovers or polyamory connoisseurs, I got cheating and emotional abuse as a result, as the game seemed like a great realistic RPG at first. To you the game doesn't tell you what's right, well it tries to dictate to me - don't want to obey and submit to how senior narrative designer saw the story of Stephen Rooney (who left Larian, by the way), get punished. On the storyline? What plot, gotta give the good players more good sex scenes to get them voted in, and the bad players what? Of course, "bad sex!" You said yourself that kissing has nothing to do with the story of the game, and yes, it absolutely does. Calling it "interesting narrative with character development" is for someone who has read about it or heard about it, but never played it that way. Ahem, "sex punishment" for players who don't want to "disarm", "fix", make their romantic companion burn and suffer, when something went wrong with the "edifying plot" and players liked the plot despite the author's "convincing" statements about how they shouldn't like it - well, that's a bit over the top with the use of sexual content. Usually in RPGs there is no need to recognize the "author's vision" and adjust the game experience to match it, everything is spelled out in the story itself, and the player can make choices, interpret something, or just play and enjoy. But this is when the main resources are allocated to the story, if the freedom to choose different forms of sexual satisfaction comes first, then the "bad players" have to be punished with sex, alas. The only lesson I've learned is a lesson in being cautious of high-budget games designed to cater to a mass audience, and yes, that's a result of my own choice to trust the game industry and what's in the description of a game's genre. Like, since it says RPG, it's going to be an RPG. If it's BG3, it'll be just as great a game as BG2, only with gorgeous graphics and mocap. Well yeah, "trust no one" is a very good life lesson, great black irony, too bad not only IRL, but also towards "magical worlds" that are supposed to be joyful.

Yes, absolutely. Consistency is very important when developing a game. The worst thing you can do is turn 180 degrees in the middle of the process. People who played EA had no idea how it would turn out later on. Such sexualization was not planned from the beginning either, classic romances with one companion were planned, which were supposed to start at a party. If the game immediately positions itself as a "dating simulator" with the presence of hard traumatizing content at certain elections, "sex with a bear", "evil" gets the full (without the bear, but still will not show a little), then connoisseurs of classic RPGs, story and freedom of roleplay, of course, will not come and will not be disappointed and will not even spend money. Those who like it will come, make the cash register, and everyone will be happy. Consistency and openly positioning your vision at once is the key to success and audience satisfaction.

Personally, I dislike "Oh, but I am already with someone else" options and don't use them, even when they are offered, because I think they are cruel. They create a weird sense of competition between the suitors, and devalue the friendship with that person by putting them in a romantic hierarchy. Depending on the suitor, such a reply might also paint a target on your partner's back (I wouldn't put it past Minthara to kill someone to get what or whom she wants, for example.) The one time I really like the "I met someone new" answer though, is when Mystra asks Origin-Gale why he defied her command. Here it's not just about the romance, but about the romance as a meaningful plot device - and it vexes me endlessly that I can't also tell (in my game) Astarion, that he saved my character's life by simply being himself.

But that is something I am missing in general, and why Gale is my favourite travelling companion and romance. With him the relationship is written with some reciprocity in mind. In act 1 he offers you a moment of peace and safety during troubling time, and in act 2 you can return the favour. He compliments your fighting skill, you can acknowledge his magical prowess and intellect, you can exchange compliments, show vulnerability, and all conversations with him draw their dramatic momentum from the flow of arguments. It's just a very rewarding experience, and grants me a feeling of actually doing something together with the character. That's especially true for act 3 when discussing the Crown, which is a conversation I appreciate more, the more I go through it. (Lae'zel is probably a close second when it comes down to how much adore her writing.)

I also wish there were more casual conversation moments. With Astarion-Origin I could chat with Wyll about what it feels like to return home to Baldur's Gate; and during the Tiefling party there was a cute moment when Shart told my character that Gale was sneaking glances my way and we talked a bit about that. Nothing big, but I feel moments like this help to create a sense of camaraderie.

Other than that, I think it's nice that now Wyll and supposedly Halsin (I couldn't really check this yet) only proposition you in Act 2/3 when you have flirted with them during the party in act 1. No need to make poor Wyll sad because you have to reject his dance proposal any longer.

Cruel? Interesting, I, on the contrary, thought this kind of rejection was more honest and human. When a person is simply rejected for no reason, they might start thinking what's wrong with them, why they were rejected, etc. Say, if I liked a person and he noticed it and said something like, "You know, I already have a girlfriend," it wouldn't be offensive, it's understandable, and there's no competition, it's just that the person already has a couple, so that means we should forget about this option, and that's it. What does romantic hierarchy mean? In my understanding there is a couple and then there are the rest - friends and companions, they are not suitors, they are just acquaintances. Hierarchy in my understanding is a kind of structure in which someone is a step above, someone below. And here it's as if the romantic partner is separate, friends are separate, there can be some kind of friendship hierarchy in the head, when some of the friends are closer and liked more, some less. Romantic hierarchy only occurs, in my opinion, when a person is flirting or dating more than one person at a time. I'm sure Minthara wouldn't do that for no reason, she might get angry in response to betrayal or cheating, but if Tav, who wasn't flirting with her but just helping her and socializing as a friend, say, in response to her attempt to start flirting says: "I'm sorry Minthara, I really appreciate you as a friend, but I genuinely love the other person," then that kind of vindictive behavior to those who didn't betray, didn't promise anything, just for liking them and their heart is already taken. .. This is the behavior of a psychopath, Minthara is not one. Besides, she's smart enough to imagine how she herself would take revenge on her lover's murderer if she were Tav, she wouldn't do that.


Yes, in my case Shart was the only one who noticed our relationship with Astarion at the Tiefling party, and said her line about it too, offered a drink for courage like a real friend, it's a really cute moment. I'm sorry that many of the lines that further reveal the characters' personalities are "hidden" very deep in the game's romance, and are only available if Tav flirts with multiple companions at the same time. For example, I recently read that Shadowheart, if you find yourself in a love triangle between her and Astarion, responds to the suggestion of "sharing" by saying that "you overestimate his ability to share. He may seem like a carefree hedonist, but he's actually fragile if you can give him the comfort he needs." This line gives important information about Astarion's character, and reveals Shadowheart herself as well, showing her attentiveness and observation. But it is only available to those who try to make a relationship with both of them. It doesn't seem right to me that a player who, for example, wants to go through the game single player, without the romances, is deprived of a lot of content, less to reveal the character of the companions. And even a player who has a romance, and supposedly, as, should due to this maximize the character of at least the favorite companion, still will not be able to do it as fully, if he will be the whole game faithful to the chosen one, as someone who tries to "try everything". These lines could also appear in the story as a friendly outside opinion, to make the story content more accessible to all players.


I would like to clarify - only when flirting at a party? And if not flirting, they won't propose?

I got that line in my current playthrough (with Shadowheart).

To me that hidden content gives great replay value while avoiding to overload the game.

The main thing I would wish for is to have a story-mode that really focuses on these different partial plots, because some parts of act 3 get tedious in the second playthrough.

? better support for „now I’d like to see how this would have gone if I had chosen differently“ — focused on those differences.

This is quite a departure from the typical „I want to do all sidequests“-style of playing RPGs that I used earlier. You actually have to do multiple playthroughs to see all content.

I'll take it from the top:

I feel that in many cases "I already am in a relationship" is leading the other person on. It implies that if you were not already in a relationship, you would consider their advances. Hence my mentioning of a hierarchy, it is suggested that if the current relationship ends, they'd be in the game again. This might be what you wish to convey, but if you are simply not interested in them, because you have different priorities in life &c, it''s dishonest.

The two characters in game whom you can tell that you are already with someone else are Halsin and Minthara. Halsin replies by telling you that he'd be open for a poly-relationship, while Minthara suggests that you should simply break up with your current partner to be with her. Both can be avoided if you tell them that you are simply not interested in them as a romantic partner. I think it's Lae'zel who has the "I am flattered, but I am not interested." option which for me is the best way out because it acknowledges your appreciation while at the same time shutting down the subject without question.


I am also ok with some dialogue and information being reserved for certain situations. As Arne states, it adds to the replay value of the game. Some of this information is also not locked behind one dialogue, but available through different channels. When you listen to Shadowheart's banter with Astarion, I thought it noticeable that she is more careful with him than with the other guys. When he gives a catty or evasive answer to one of her questions, she usually follows up with a gentler question. I would just in general prefer to have more of these small conversations with your companions. I also really like the moments when you notice a landmark, and the group just starts talking amongst themselves.


I can't say for sure for Halsin. He had a new, platonic dialogue when finishing his quest in the Shadowcurse, but he spent a very long time with Orin in my recent run, so I am not completely sure if I have not simply missed the time-window for his proposition. Wyll though, doesn't seem to start his dance scene if you did not previously flirt with him during the Tiefling party (which is really the only occasion you can flirt with him) since patch 6.

I believe it's a change that came in with patch 6, so quite recent, but adding onto that, I'd like to point out that this game has had issues with it's romance flags from launch.

There was a period of time where Gale, Halsin, and Wyll's flags were broken all at once. Wyll had the issue where he would provide his dance scene without having been flirted with, leaving people feeling upset and confused because they had to harshly reject him for no reason. Then there was Gale, and people having break up with Gale multiple times in order to do anything with anyone else, because the game would not unflag his romance, so every romantic action with someone else prompted yet another upset conversation with Gale. Same with Halsin, his romance flags were being tripped even when people didn't flirt with him at all, leading to awkward scenes and the issue where he was handing out kisses before the last battle completely unprompted.

I personally found an issue with Minthara's romance where the game actually would not play her romantic scene at all, and i discovered it had something to do with her and Astarion's flags being confused somehow. Ignoring Astarion completely was the only way i could get her scene to play. I didn't continue with her romance in that run, so i don't know if her romance has any other issues.

It's good that these things are getting fixed, I just wish they were fixing it faster.

No, of course that's not what I meant to convey, I didn't even think about the fact that my current relationship might be expected to end, I don't understand how I can love someone and still plan to end the relationship. Much less look out for some sort of "replacement" in advance. It's a bit wild to me, and on my part the response, "I'm sorry, but my heart is already taken," is completely and crystal honest, so I didn't think of that option for a possible reaction, but of course, if a character can take it that way, and come up with some sort of "love hierarchy" for themselves, it's really best to refuse them in whatever form they perceive it as an appropriate refusal. "I'm flattered, but I'm not interested" can also be taken ambiguously as "You're just not interested yet", that is, as a hint of an opportunity to gain that interest, to somehow show up and prove themselves. I thought that the honest answer that I'm already in a relationship shows that I have another priority in my life, and that priority is someone who is standing nearby right now reading his book, and the other companion, no matter how good and wonderful they are, will never be my priority, but may become one for someone else. By the way, sometimes I feel sorry for them that they are so all lonely and unloved walking around, especially Lae'zel who clearly needs sex and she even tries to seduce Will at the party, but Will is depressed because of the horns and doesn't notice it, and Karlach wants a "hot guy". In my case, Halsin, who, in the presence of such hot ladies, is prying into Tav, who is clearly in love with Astarion, looks like a concrete idiot. In terms of realism, of course, it would be much more interesting if the companions built relationships among themselves instead of hovering around Tav, and it doesn't require sexy cutscenes, dialog lines are enough, but it would make the relationships in the group much more like those of real people, and the game would feel less like a dating simulator for one.


Thank you! That's a good fix. If I do get to play this game some more, Will won't be so frustrated anymore.

Um . . . I completely disagree. Telling someone you're already in a relationship is not some weird, indirect invitation to try to get someone to cheat or break up with their partner. It does not imply anything and should be good enough as a rejection, period. For one, saying "sorry, I'm taken" shows loyalty to the person you're with; second, if you're really not into the person you're rejecting, it's a way to reject them without making it about your non-attraction to that person. Sure, maybe some people prefer brutally honest rejections, but in my experience it's better to make it as non-personal as possible to avoid hurt feelings or anger. A lot of women even pretend to be married to avoid men hitting on them because they think men will respect their (made up) husband more than the woman herself.

There were hints of that during the Early Access days with Lae'zel and Shadowheart, but that got shafted completely safe for the few lines of dialogue they get after you make them make up, which is the extent of the additional banter between them. That they then proceed to be completely silent and non-interactive for the remainder of the game (that scene happens during Act 1!) shows just how little there is to the companions past their quest chain (which occurs in split-apart act-based bursts) and the romance.

I think that they should have stuck to their guns and kept the "whoever you leave behind in Act 1 stays behind" idea around instead of letting you have everyone and make them arbitrarily miss important story beats. Maybe if the player had to maintain a more tightly-knit party throughout it would have allowed for more interactions in those smaller groups. It would have made the game feel closer to the originals as well, where there was little reason to swap party members around on a regular basis and you instead picked a more or less permanent party that was pretty much set in stone after Spellhold. Instead they gave in and frontloaded all the game has to offer, giving little to no reason for additional runs if you can experience everything in about two at most, something that the lack of real reactivity and gender (basically, actually convincing romance) / race (the githyanki had one ending that only they could get with Lae'zel, but even that got taken away and given to everyone...) / class (there were hints of something cool if you played as a Shar cleric in EA, but it got cut in full game, for example)-exclusive content also plays into.

While I think that caving in to the demands of not having a fixed party after act 1 was bad and comprimised the artistic vision, in the end I think this would have only hidden the lack of content and flat characters and would not have improved them.

Yeah, that's what I meant by the lack of such a seemingly realistic and natural form of rejection in the game. Otherwise, it feels like Tav is in some strange world with strange thinking people who need to be spoken to only in a certain way, or they'll try to break you and your partner up. And yes, in reality this form of refusal, which the game offers, works much worse and often provokes a lot of unnecessary words on the part of the one who was refused, which leads to possible conflict situations and resentment, while the wonderful "I'm married" lifehack works much more effectively.


It's a pity they made that decision. It feels like all these interesting things were just sacrificed for "love triangles" and the possibility to change your mind and change partners in Act 2. Why, when the player could easily pass the game several times with different companions, if he had such a desire, and get each time a new story. There is not much cohesion in the party, at the beginning of the game - it's okay (conflicts could be even sharper), but when even by the end of the game there is no cohesion, it's sad. There is a certain center - Tav, and around him companions "revolve", trying to seduce, competing for attention, building a "romantic hierarchy" and so on. The idea of global dependence of companions on Tav, when they can't safely leave the group if they want to, because they are likely to become illithids and die, I don't really like, in BG2 companions had much more freedom, but okay, let it go, as long as it's part of the main plot. Adding all these love dramas with choices between the two, threesomes and stuff just makes it worse. There is no " DnD spirit" in the party, if I may say so.

I will say that I think leaving behind our party after act one would have resulted in a worse game experience. The companions are essentially the backbone of the game. Taking them away would result in a far less interesting experience, if you ask me. Plus from a mechanical standpoint, you'd end up with people leaving behind certain characters and just never experiencing them because there's no room for them in a party. I like Wyll, but I know that if we would be limited to only three other party members, I'd never take him past act one because I'd never be able to justify having him in my party over anyone else. The same probably would go with Gale, since I like to play spellcasters so having him would be redundant, especially since Shadowheart would be a definite keeper in the party for healing. I'd probably HAVE to take Astarion because having no rogue at all for the game would be a rough prospect.

I also don't think it would have improved reactivity within the group because they'd still need to write more or less the same amount of dialogue for everyone.