Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Hi! I was directed to this thread by @Marielle in the kissing concerns thread over on the suggestions board. I hope you don't mind me resurrecting this as I'm at the tail end of my game and my romance with Ascended Astarion has really become my Roman Empire. I'll probably be repeating some of the stuff I said over on that thread, and I've read through this entire one and found a lot of thoughts I enthusiastically agreed with and shared. I'll try not to complain about the kisses because obviously there's an entire other thread on that. Anyway, here's a freaking manifesto, I guess.

I remember watching my husband play BG3 when it first came out and seeing the occasional scene with Astarion (he didn't use him much as a companion but would talk to him in camp sometimes) and my initial reaction was pretty much just, "Well, he seems fun." I'm a big vampire junkie but have been disappointed with a lot of vampire romances in media; they usually seem to take the route that the vampire either has to be redeemed or condemned by the end. I can't think of many outside of say, Anne Rice, where a truly dark vampire love interest gets to live happily ever after. It makes sense, given society's penchant for stories that drive home some kind of moral message, especially when an "innocent woman" is involved, but to have trouble finding those kinds of endings outside of erotica (often poorly written to boot) has been a source of frustration for me for decades.

In general, the idea of being able to play a game where I could romance a vampire sounded neat but I didn't decide to commit myself to playing until I started seeing more clips of Astarion online and was just utterly captivated by his character. But there was one problem, which I'm sure is familiar to many of you. Every single post that referenced his Ascended form on socials was rife with comments about how awful it is to see him that way, how people immediately had to reload, how it's not the "correct" ending, how you lose the man your character has fallen in love with. Well, that kinda sucks, I thought. I guess I won't get to have my dark romance with a vampire lover after all, because I want him to be dark and evil, but not abusive. And yeah, to me, that's a different thing.

(Sidenote: I've seen an Instagram post that had book suggestions for your chosen BG3 romance, and the one for Astarion was A Dowry of Blood, a novel from the POV of one of Dracula's brides, and that is 100% about domestic abuse. The difference between that book's relationship and AA's relationship with Tav are quite stark, IMO.)

But, I figured, the game is supposed to be very long, and I get one, maybe two hours of play time per night, so I at least have lots of time with my cheeky vamp before I have to decide what to do and potentially get disappointed by yet another lackluster vampire romance ending, because by now the internet had me convinced it was either that or endure unquestionable, unrelenting abuse. Seriously, the discourse was basically, "Ascended Astarion is always abusive. Worse than Cazador. End of discussion." People lamented losing their "sweet boy," which didn't seem in line with what I knew of him, but okay (more on that in a bit). Most of the clips I saw of Ascended Astarion didn't seem that bad, but I realized I was also lacking context for them. So I pressed on.

Pretty much immediately, I fell as in love with him as I expected to. I've seen a lot of comments that amount to, "If you must romance Ascended Astarion, it's only okay if you're doing a durge or an otherwise evil run." But I didn't want to do either; it's my first time playing and I wanted to play the normal Tav route, and even though it's just a video game, I knew I'd have trouble playing like a straight up jerk. I saw someone else in this thread mentioning doing a "fall from grace" type of run, which pretty much describes exactly what I did; my Tav (I named her Lethe) started off as neutral/good-ish aligned, someone who grew up wanting to be a good person and do the right thing, but was also exhausted from trying to live up to everyone else's expectations of what the right thing is, always putting everyone else's happiness and needs before her own. Astarion would be one of the first people she'd ever met who is blatantly selfish and outright annoyed by altruism. She would find that very appealing. She would want some of it to rub off on her, first figuratively, then literally. It actually was a ton of fun to play it that way, I think more fun than I would have had being straight up good or evil. If I were ever to do another playthrough, I probably wouldn't create another Tav, but would play as her again, making slightly different choices depending on what I learned about her while I played, though the basic throughline would be the same. But my point is, you don't need a "reason" to have your character romance Ascended Astarion, or to have them decide to ascend him. You can just do it. Because it's your game.

Anyway, another comment I ran into a lot is that canonically in D&D, vampires have no souls and can't love, and therefore AA does not love Tav. Again, case closed. Never mind the fact that apparently, D&D lore also states that spawn have no souls and that there is no such rite of ascension outside of BG3. But okay. I'm into headcanon. I want AA to love my Tav. I still hadn't made it to Cazador's palace, but I started envisioning a scene where Astarion, scared that Lethe will leave him if he ascends and no longer loves her, because he's already established to her that vampires are a monstrous, power-hungry lot, goes to the Devil's Fee and has Helsik assist him with getting an audience with Mephistopheles. In exchange for killing Raphael (which he already knew they would probably need to do in order to get the Orphic Hammer, and we know that after you kill Raphael, Mephistopheles eats him), maybe Mephistopheles grants him the right to retain his love for Lethe. Maybe he even guarantees that she will be free if Astarion were to ever try to seriously harm her. It felt silly, but given that Helsik emphasizes discretion for her and her clients, it's not out of the realm of possibility that she would recognize Astarion and not say anything, plus it made me feel better as by now I'd pretty much decided I would ascend him, but was nervous about the apparent horrors to come.

All that to say, I spent a lot of time coming up with this headcanon, only for it to be made completely moot, because by the time all the post-ascension scenes were done, she had no problem believing Astarion still loved her and would never hurt her. First, I want to mention, like a lot of you I found the persuasion check dialog to be really lackluster. I feel like with an extra hour or so of thinking about it, the writer could have come up with a much better reason. The 7k extra souls you weren't expecting to sacrifice sure seems like a good one, but Astarion dismisses that nice and quick. So, what's left? A "life he can be proud of?" When has Astarion EVER indicated that pride in himself is a value he holds? Seriously, did I miss something? He's a rogue, FFS. From the word go he is proudly manipulating, sneaking around, and doing anything he can to achieve his goals. He doesn't give one lick about being proud of himself if it means living according to someone else's standards. If the dialog felt less forced, more organic and earned, maybe I would have gone that route. But I pictured this conversation playing out with the Astarion I'd grown to know over the past couple of months, and all I could picture when Lethe said that line was him rightly laughing in her face for thinking that would convince him. I couldn't do it, so I pressed forward, preparing myself to flinch and in general just feel like an awful person, because at this point I'd been bombarded with nothing but warnings that that's what you are if you help him ascend. You've "failed to end the cycle of abuse." As Ulma said, you're just as much of a monster as he.

I really like that the rite scene requires Tav to link minds with Astarion. I think that provides an excellent reason why any reluctant Tav might decide to join him. First of all, the animation in this scene is incredible. I recorded it and have re-watched it so many times. His menacing demeanor, the way Tav watches him with that little smirk (do all Tavs have that smirk?), it's all just so *chef's kiss*. And through that scene, I could feel what Lethe was feeling. That this was power she didn't want to let go of, even if it meant losing a part of herself. That she was finally watching her lover unleash his true potential. Was it worth 7,000 souls? She wasn't even thinking about the 7,000 souls anymore, and she certainly didn't want to be responsible for them if she'd abandoned the ritual. But be cautious, I thought. Maybe once he starts talking to her again, he'll suddenly be like a raging animal, sneering and seething at the woman he once loved.

But I want to pause a minute and ask, does that really make sense? What kind of game is this, if the player suddenly becomes an abuse victim? Patch 6 kisses notwithstanding (which I'm willing to charitably consider a misstep and hope they'll be corrected), do the anti-AA folks really think that people would want to play a game where their partner, even imaginary, is just...a total ass? What's entertaining about that? I think it comes down to a fundamental misunderstanding of what draws people to dark romance. They assume that someone who enjoys it must be an abuse survivor or victim (and so what if they are? Are they not still allowed to decide what they enjoy?), or they've been brainwashed by the patriarchy, or they would not be able to recognize abuse in a real-life partner. I'm not going to get into why all of those arguments are bunk. We all know that they are, and honestly at this point, I'm tired of entertaining them, but I think they're worth mentioning here.

That said, I do think post-Ascension Astarion, especially in the scenes directly after, is an interesting Rorschach test for someone's tolerance for dark romance tropes. Because I, personally, was hanging onto his every word like a child at storytime. I was completely lost in his expressions, marveling at how happy he looked. I saw no hints that the ritual had been a mistake, had been anything other than his best and only chance to be free. To her, he was the same person he always was, but with his inhibitions and fears removed. He was arrogant, seductive, and ready to indulge in whatever depravity the world offered him. Exactly as he'd been the day she met him. She didn't need some alteration of the contract to decide to stay with him. She trusted him, and he has shown no indication that he will betray that trust.

I recently saw a reel on Instagram by someone who regretted Ascending him (or maybe just did it "for science?" IDK), and indicated that they were triggered, or at least disturbed, by one line in particular that he speaks directly to Tav. I got freaking chills when I heard it. This other person, and I am sad that they experienced this, said it felt like Astarion was mocking their anxieties (not sure if they meant theirs, their Tav's, or both). But all I could think was, "Wow, did the writers wild shape into flies and hang out on my wall? Because this line feels like it was written for me." I assume he only says that line to a partnered Tav, and I'm not sure if there's other benchmarks that need to be met for it to trigger (like maybe the pain priest scene), but it felt so, so perfect and exactly what I envisioned a dark romance like this would feel and sound like. It didn't feel like mocking to me. It felt like a promise. But it's an interesting example of how where we see an extremely well-written and nuanced dark character, others see a straight up monster, full stop, do not pass go, do not collect $200. I could honestly talk for hours about that conversation alone. It's spectacular to me. It felt like the fulfillment of every little bad boy fantasy I'd had since I was like 14. I love all the other ascended-specific scenes too but that one just absolutely gave me an out of body experience.

In real life, would ascended Astarion be a problematic partner? Yes, absolutely. He literally owns spawn Tav. But it's not like he was cute and cuddly before. Everyone gets to love their favorite character the way they want to, but I can't help but cringe at fanart that shows him, for example, raising a child with Tav as a doting, enthusiastic father. This is a man who from day one has worn a wardrobe made of red flags. He is not a good person. He has always been a liar and manipulator; ascension doesn't really change that, and there's no reason to believe that not ascending him changes it either. I have seen AA fans get accused of being "deluded," but thinking you can fix your partner, assuming he needs fixing, is pretty futile in the real world, and almost as impossible as meeting an actual vampire. No version of Astarion is someone a healthy person should be with in real life, but I have great news. Astarion isn't real. That's why we love him. If I wanted to romance someone like Wyll, or Halsin, or Gale, well, I don't need to, because my husband is basically a combination of all three men. I understand that belonging to an evil vampire god in real life would probably not work out well for me. That's why I do it in a video game.

With all that said, I try not to engage in arguments (with myself or others) of which is the "right" path. A lot of UA fans will swear up and down that theirs is the correct course, the one Larian intended for you to take, and I know AA fans make the same case at times, but I see it more in UA fans (maybe it's just the pockets my algorithm chooses to show me). And when that comes up, what I want to say is, that's not how the game works. Larian didn't spend hours on alternate paths because one is right and one is wrong. One is darker and the other is...I guess good? More bittersweet, it certainly sounds like. If they didn't want you to take ascension, they would have just given you a Game Over and made you reload from your last save, bad job, do it again and get it right this time. BG3 is not a maze game where there's only one right path to the end. It's a series of elaborate trolley problems, and those of you who've seen The Good Place know that the point of a trolley problem is to kill as many people as possible with the trolley. Wait, crap, no, it's that there is no right answer. It's all about asking yourself, what and whom are you willing to sacrifice, and for who? For what? Those 7k souls, the only thing that the game really throws at you to deter you from the ritual, are worth exactly what you want them to be worth and nothing else. No one can make that call for you. No one can tell you what they should be worth to you, only what they were worth on their playthrough.

I know a fair amount of criticism has been lobbied at how this path has been handled, particularly by the patches, but considering even what it is now, I think what we have is pretty incredible. It could be made even better with just a few tweaks. I hope that it is. I've really enjoyed getting lost in this world, and I'm sad it's about to end, so I'll take any excuse to dive back into it again. In the meantime, I'll entertain myself by writing out scenes that must have happened between Astarion and Lethe until I get bored. Which I hope is never.
Thanks for reading. Honestly, I'm surprised this wasn't longer...