Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

This is interesting information for me, it further clarifies the situation with the hype around the Ascended Astarion. It turns out that the image of Astarion was used not only to "show the abuser", it seems that in America and probably some other countries, this is such a hot topic, you wrote in another thread that there are a lot of movies on this topic, as I understand, it is something like a separate genre. It also turns out that vampires are also often either redeemed or condemned in the media, and it's not just our poor Astarion's problem. I'm just not that well versed on the subject, I wasn't a fan of vampire themes before, I've read Anne Rice and watched some movies, but in general I had vampires rather in the general stream of the fantasy genre and the gothic and rocker subculture, I really like both, but didn't pay much attention to vampires specifically. Astarion changed that, of course, and now I can even really understand Strahd - when I first heard about him, I thought something like, "Oh, there's nothing to do, stuck on one woman, all tough lord, so hard to find someone else...". And, now, when the "kissing curse" prevents me from "connecting with my lover", I can imagine myself in the future in a gothic gamer's chair with a pale face, melancholically going through different vampire games, and sighing sorrowfully: "No, it's not Astarion..." In all seriousness, this use of the character as hype material on abusers is really hurtful and unfair to the players. The real author of Astarion - Stephen Rooney obviously did not plan any "abuser", he said that he did not intend to create a classic "evil vampire", that no one would be interested in it, he wrote a living personality, a man who went through hell, but not broken, with a terrific sense of humor, despite everything, distrustful, embittered, but capable of deep and strong attachment to the one to whom his trust will still manage to earn. This "cycle of abuse" is, of course, in my opinion, too superficial and primitive an understanding of his story.

I always go through any RPG for the first time without spoilers to be able to be surprised, and after watching just one small general review on BG3, I bought it almost immediately after release (or already with 1 patch, I don't remember exactly). I, like you, don't have much time to play games, unfortunately, except on weekends I can afford to play all day long, plus I love to go to every corner of the world, do all the quests, read all the books, etc., and as a result I could only go through the game once. I didn't know I would meet Astarion, I fell in love with him just in the course of the game, just like in life, naturally. I really want to play him some more, create a suitable DU character with a suitable roleplay, take a body 1 that suits him better. Otherwise with body 3 (I love playing warriors too much and couldn't get past such a realistic figure for a woman able to wear full plate armor) I have Astarion looking like a little lordling in places because of the height difference. Especially in the one kiss that really amuses me (the one with the face grab) - Astarion grabs Tav by the chin and pulls down sharply, causing Tav to slouch, and the whole thing looks like "a pocket dominant and his general with a hooked back". Although it does turn me on, I can't forget that moment on the first night when Astarion jumps on Tav, imagining himself in her shoes - it's just a buzzkill. But still, Astarion would probably be better suited for a successful lordship with a woman with a body 1 more like a lady.


That's great. No, it's funny, of course, but okay, I already had a desire to play this game as "evil", so, okay, I'll show the world an evil DU, as long as it's " okay". About the "fall from grace" thing - yeah, I had that too, though it didn't turn out quite intentionally. I really liked the whole game world at first, I got into all the companions at first, I wanted to take care of everyone around me, make it better. Tav was initially something like an active leader and "problem solver", a bit reckless, climbing everywhere she could and couldn't, helping everyone, refusing rewards, yes, Astarion was generous in his disapproval at the very beginning... "Ice Charm" - so jokingly I teased him about myself (from a book about vampires, the first of which is literally right in the first tomb: "Beware of the vampire. Beware of his icy charms..."). The surprise effect of Astarion being a vampire won't work in the game, even without spoilers, because he is introduced in the character creation editor. But I didn't understand what it was like to be a vampire, I didn't understand that it meant that the whole "good" world was against him, it was fun for me: "Oh, a vampire in a companion, cool!". I thought he was being mean because of his bad temper, I thought it was funny too, I hoped there would be some plot points with him when I could somehow negotiate or help with something, strike a balance so that the "evil companion", which I thought he was at the time, wouldn't get completely pissed off and leave the group (it happened in BG2). "Night Under the Stars" impressed me a lot, it was the first good conversation I had with him, and I was just picking the most flirtatious lines possible, like "What are you waiting for?" because he was swearing at me during the day, and I was wondering how he would react to my sass. I thought no romance would work out, I knew he could say no, and I didn't want to "cave" to him and make the game choices that would suit him. I even thought I might have to romance Gale, and after the bite - what, okay, if it doesn't work out with Astarion, I'll accept it, it's realistic, I'll go through the game single, without a couple, maybe then I'll go "evil", we'll see... During the bite scene, I understood him for the first time, I recognized part of his story, I read his thoughts about eating rats, I saw such surprise on his face when I agreed to the bite... And the bite itself - I didn't want to stop him, I let him finish eating himself to the end without throwing checks. Then I overplayed it, passed the check, and he thanked me so sincerely. I guess the first "step towards evil" was choosing to make an "evil remark" towards Gale during the conversation at camp after the bite. He wanted to kick Astarion out of the group, and I, disregarding my previous principles of balance and good communication with all companions, honestly told him that if he was not satisfied with Astarion, he could get out of here himself. And himself to look for artifacts "to feed" (I then still thought that it will be necessary to feed him with magic items for the whole game). Well, there was no such line, but I thought something like that. Well and killing of Gandrel, probably, can be considered "evil deed", though I believed Astarion that it was the killer from Cazador, and waited for the next killers in the future, but Will later talked to the corpse, the corpse had a line: "He knows where our children are". But what children, I'll find out later somehow in the story, I guess Astarion had probably asked me out before that - that was the big news! Really, after the Ascension I didn't make a particularly evil character, I was too happy, the world was shining in all colors again, I even set myself challenges like "save every single Gondians in the Foundry", and it was the hardest fight in chapter 3, much worse than the battle with Brain, those suicidal guys were dying with a desperate zeal, I spent two weekends to save the lives of those little pixel people. Like a jerk I played when I tried to play with the new kisses, I didn't do the best things to the people around me, I lashed out at everyone ("cycle of abuse" kicked in after all, didn't it?) and I saw no other option for Tav with such Astarion but to get Brain under control.

Regarding canons and souls. There is no mention of "losing his soul" in the game, on the contrary, Astarion says that Mephistopheles has no power over him. I first learned about "soul" only from the spawns' comments, and even, at first I forgot it was about DnD, I took it as just a normal religious thing. I respect all religions, but I myself am an atheist, I believe only in what is proven by science, and about the "loss of soul" periodically heard and in reality in my address from believers, so I took it at first with the usual skepticism. Then it dawned on me that actually in the world of Faerûn souls are a part of objective reality, and I started to worry about this problem. A familiar DM said that vampire souls go to the Astral Sea, and I believed it, but not so long ago I found time to dig into the lore of DnD.

First off, Larian used a home rule for all vampires in the game right away. Yes, in 5th edition vampires are monsters, they are a priori evil (alignment after conversion becomes neutral-evil, it doesn't matter what it was before). But it happens at once, at the moment of conversion into a vampire spawn, there is no exact information about the influence of further "upgrades" on the vampire's evilness, but logically, it should not affect it, the improved vampire does not get evilly from it (if Larian would observe the lore, the vampire would have nowhere to "get evilly", he is already quite evil). In the game, vampire spawns (not just Astarion, but others) are not "monsters" of any kind, they feel and behave just like normal humans with their own personalities. The vampires of DnD 5th are also supposed to have manias, where do we see a single mania in a vampire in the game? Veliot is a maniacal psychopath, and Cazador is a broken maniacal psychopath, and the rest of them?

Souls. All vampires are children of Mephistopheles, vampirism is his gift (or curse). All vampires go to hell when they die. All of them without exception - Astarion Spawn, Astarion Lord, Tav - Astarion's spawn, all 7000 spawns (and it doesn't matter when they die, during the ritual or sometime afterward). But you don't need to worry so much (in general, you need to worry, in my headcanon I've already calculated and competent defense of the castle, and how to make a secret "bunker" to store Astarion's coffin, and Lord's "fake coffin" as bait, my main task is to do everything so that he never met Mephistopheles), but you shouldn't kill yourself directly. Hell on Faerûn is not the "hell for sinners" in our religions, it's more like a large corporation, cruel but with its own effective rules. Weak and useless souls, of course, can go into soul coins or Asmodeus' furnace, and their fate will be unenviable. But just torturing a powerful vampire, the kind that could become an effective employee of the corporation, Mephistopheles will not. Astarion and Tav will have to work for Mephistopheles, yes, it's worse than having fun in the castle and being free, but it will be like Karlach's service to Zariel when she drove troops in hellish battles, not like torturing sinners in the "classic" hell. The terms of service are unknown, it might even be possible to do something important for Mephistopheles, get resurrected and freed (well, until the next death, of course), but they'll be together, no one will aim to separate a perfectly matched fighting pair, it's not effective, and they'll live. Albeit a different, not so beautiful life, but they will.

The value of the Ascension ritual, then, to Mephistopheles is not that 7000 were sacrificed once, but that these 7000 were turned into spawn in the first place. No vampire would make 7000 spawns for nothing, and the Ascension is a motivation, a reward for the work, a bonus of sorts. When a lawful stupid paladin kills those 7000 - he sends them straight to Mephistopheles, they already belong to him, it's just that no one takes the reward, Mephistopheles laughs, I guess, at that. When these 7000 are set free - they too will go to him someday, sooner, later, when the time comes, like all vampires. Maybe some of them will survive, escape, drink vampire blood, and make their own Ascension someday, except. Vampires are bound to Hell, and they go to Hell, their souls can't be "saved" except by ridding them of the curse of vampirism, which is the only way they can get to Kelemvor and some deity's domain after death.


Yeah, I was both hurt and saddened by that line the first time around too. I already spoilered for myself, Astarion's ritual was too important to follow the principles of a "pure" first game. Ascended I tried not to spoiler myself, but I read UA on the net about all those "insults", "Astarion will never respect Tav" (and for me respect is very important in a relationship, I respected Astarion and treated him as gently as I could), and damn it, I didn't come across a single intelligent AA comment at the time that made me feel any better. I was "going to the execution" as it was, I decided I was going to make it to the end, bring Astarion to his "evil" finale where he would be fine, and never touch this game again. I remembered how once, when I knew he'd seduced me for protection, which he really, really needed in this world, even though he might not have done it and I was on his side, even before the seduction, my Tav had thought, "If I have any power, I'll take it all, Astarion, and cover you with it like a cloak against the world." And then Tav saw that he didn't need it anymore. And well, I'll still be your shield, and your sword, no matter what happens. I guess if those kisses had happened then, I probably wouldn't have been so angry, I would have pushed through it, maybe made some evil around to get even, but I still would have brought him to his finale.

But the other thing that happened was, "You gave me everything. Thank you." And it felt real, it felt like I really deserved those lines, it felt serious. And his gratitude afterward, his joy, his playfulness, his wonderful "treasure", "Aeterna Amantes". There was no submission. I would never want to part with him, on the contrary, I would not let him go from me myself. All those " angry" lines when he yells aren't for me, they're for someone else, so why should I care about them? I'd probably yell too if he brought some other spawn and wanted a "free relationship" with a threesome. Then poor Lord would probably learn the meaning of the phrase, "Hell hath no fury like an angry woman" and the whole D/s would go down in flames. Only he wouldn't want that, I can really trust him, Astarion would never betray. That's a huge rarity. That's my "gold flag".