Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion Halsin's motivation

That's what I mean when I say the story was changed. They had ideas for the story, then decided to go for something different and as a result Halsin's old plot no longer had a place.



I see no no reason as it stands for Halsin to have to kill her in self defense. There's no conflict between them and no reason why there ever would be. I'd be interested in hearing your pitch, at least.

So heres what Im thinking. Keeping in mind this is all my headcannon based on discussions we have had here in the threads and how I understand the in game lore and cut content, so I could also be wildly off base. In which case everyone has the right to rip me a new one. Hopefully I dont completely humiliate myself with this. However, Im not saying this is what was planned, but how I am trying to fit together what we have in a cohesive manner. But I have already stated, I dont know the details of the datamined content. I dont know what the original story really was that Larian had planned.

My pitch is this.

Ketheric Thorm, his wife, and daughter Isobel are all devout Selunites. They are a powerful family in the town of Reithwin. As the town of Reithwin grows and expands, tensions rise between the town/Thorms and the local druidic circle, of which Halsin is a member, assumingly because the town is growing and is encroaching on local habitat, threatening the balance of nature. I believe there is banter about this though I cant confirm.

Selune has a child, Aylin aka The Nightsong, who falls in love with Ketherics half elf mortal daughter, Isobel. Ketheric having issue with Aylin and Isobels relationship due to the fact Aylin is an immortal never made total sense to me, since he is a Selune worshipper and you could make a very similar argument for him because of him and his wifes races. I would assume that he would be thrilled with the idea of his daughter being the beloved of the child of the goddess he and his wife worship. But perhaps he did have a problem with it, it doesnt really matter as far as what I think could happen.

So what Im thinking in my headcannon, is that Selune herself had an issue with the relationship for some reason. I can easily see a goddess being upset that their child is romanticaly involved with a person who is beneath them. I understand that the gods sleeping with mortals isnt uncommon, but Aylin isnt a goddess. She is the offspring of one. And if a romantic relationship isnt what Selune had planned for her child, or if it is somehow intervening with Selunes will or plans for her offspring, I can see it being an issue.

So what does Selune do? She intervenes. Gets rid of Isobel. But Selune would most likely need to do it somewhat indirectly, or at least discreetly, or she risks her relationship with her child, as well as whatever plans she had for her. So she waits for an oppourtunity to get Isobel to inadvertently kill herself. She takes advantage of the growing tensions between Reithwin and the druids. There is a meeting set up between the druids and Reithwin, supposedly to discuss some sort of peace treaty or agreement between the two factions. If there is already tension, it would be a good oppourtunity for someone to pull shenanigans.

So in my mind we have 3 possibilities, and they may even overlap eachother.

Selune dissaproves of Aylins relationship and instigates the whole thing herself, and Shar gets involved when Ketheric starts worshipping her instead of Selune after Isobel is killed

Shar instigates the whole thing herself to mess with Selune

Or maybe Selune makes some sort of deal with Shar to get rid of Isobel, this is not likely, but I could believe Shar using this as a way to mess with Selune

The datamined content as far as I understand seems to imply something going on with Aylin, as either an imposter or shes under the influence of something and somehow instigated the altercation where Isobel is killled, I think possibly persuading Isobel to attack, or perhaps Isobel defends Aylin from a percieved attack. Aylin may possibly be the under the influence of Shar, which would only make sense if Selune was desperate enough to seek out her sisters help. Or if Shar, acting on her own, somehow convinced Aylin/Isobel to instigate something at the meeting, specifically to mess around with Selune and her daughter. Or, what I would prefer, Selune herself somehow influences Isobel, since she is a cleric of Selune and worships her, to attack. Any option is just a way to get Isobel killed, knowing whoever she attacks will defend themselves. Isobel just so happens to attack Halsin, or perhaps she attacks the druid leader and Halsin defends the druid leader who is being attacked. Isobel is killed in the process. This is why Halsin feels guilty and responsible for the curse, he was the catalyst for it. We also have to remember that this place is his childhood home. He played in the woods with Thaniel as a boy, so we can assume he was at least raised in or in the vicinity of Reithwin. How many people were killed due to this? And how horrible must he feel about it? To see his homeland destroyed by a grieving Ketheric, which Halsin is responsible for. Thats why he comes with us when he sees a connection between our tadpoles and moonrise.

I dont know how aware of eachothers activities the gods are, but we know Shar and Selune are at odds. And we know Ketheric starts to worship Shar at some point. So Shar, wanting to take advantage of the situation or otherwise screw with Selune, uses a grieving Ketheric to kidnap her sisters offspring holding her hostage, and expands her power and influence. Ketheric goes along with it, hoping Shar will bring Isobel back.

But he doesnt get Isobel back. I dont have much to go on after this. But we know a battle happens at moonrise, the Sharran curse is thrust upon the land, the druid leader is killed, Halsin becomes the new leader and most likely flees with as many of the druids as he can due to the curse and they start the Emerald Grove druidic circle. From what I understand Ketheric falls in the first battle at moonrise, and somewhere in the timeline starts and stops worshipping Shar. I dont know if anything in game says when exactly, I am going to presume he starts after Isobels death, and stops when he realizes Shar wont give him what he wants. Later he starts worshiping Myrkul, and does the Absolute stuff, in exchange for Isobels ressurection.

Now, out of all the possibilites I mentioned above, the one I like the most is this.

Selune for some reason doesnt like Aylin being with Isobel. Selune takes advantage of the Druid/Thorm conflict. Selune, or maybe Shar, either influences Aylin to make Isobel to attack, or directly influences Isobel to attack Halsin at random. Halsin kills Isobel in self defense. Selune got what she wanted. Ketheric in his grief starts worshipping Shar, builds the temple, starts pulling all the shenanigans that leads to the first battle of moonrise. In the battle, the curse is thrust upon the land, the druid leader is killed, Halsin is now leader, and flees with the druids. Ketheric is defeated and gets involved with Myrkul and The Absolute. The curse splits the spirit of Thaniel in two. And things stay like this for 100 or so years until Absolute cult business starts up.

Thats an interesting pitch. Those stories all make sense in isolation, but I feel like they wouldn't really fit with the game overall. Firstly, I think Selune instigating the whole thing would make her entirely unsympathetic and really ruin Shadowheart's story if it continued unchanged. Even ignoring the shadow curse that results from Isobel's death, Swlune is meant to be a good goddess and having her do something that intensely calous ruins that idea entirely. Shar doing something to make Halsin kill Isobel is better in tHalsin that respect, but in both cases it feels cheap honestly. Halsin has no agency, he was just there at the wrong time.

I feel like thats kind of the point for Halsin though. He diddnt ask for any of this, he got swept up in it, but he still wants to make things right and do his best. I really would have liked the oppourtunity to have supported him as he confronted his guilt and remorse, and work with him to help him lift the curse that has ravaged his home for 100 years.

And yea it would kind of mess with Sharts story if Selune did such a thing, but good gods arent immune to doing bad things it seems in DnD. Just look at what Mystra did to Gale, asking him to blow himself up. if you make Gale suicide bomb the elder brain at moonrise, which is what we are led to believe Mystra wants at the time, everyone infected turns into a mindflayer. This means Mysta isnt all knowing, and is willing to sacrifice someone who was so devoted toher, even though she is supposed to be 'good', just because she got angry. Gale may or may not have fucked up but I dont think it was reasonable for her to ask him for his life, and I would argue was a very bad and immoral thing for her to do, even though she is a 'good' goddess. But gods will god, people do their bidding and will because they are gods.

I would also argue, that Aylin being Selunes offspring, may influence Selune making choices she may not otherwise make. Because its her child involved. The gods in DnD seem to be suseptable to many of the things mortals are: jealousy, rage, etc etc. Maybe, with this, Selune made a bad choice. A mistake. Thats even assuming our characters even realize it may have been her. Maybe no one finds out.

But I still think the broad strokes are whats most important, the nitty grittys can be fleshed out better. Something happened, and it involves Shar and Selune, causing Isobel to attack Halsin, he kills her in self defense. And everything goes to shit from there.

That's fair regarding your Halsin point. As for the gods though, I think that's far more problematic. Firstly, there have been fans in this forum who've poited out how Mystra asking Gale what she does is out of character already, and more in line with Larian's interpretation of gods in their other games. But beyond hat, maybe its because I'm a person of some faith but I don't think Mystra's request is that outrageous in this context. She's not just a person acting out against an ex because she's mad. She's a goddess with higher understanding, responsibility and knowledge, asking something of a worshipper. Specifically She's asking for a redemptive sacrifice that's also meant to serve he greater good. Gale sinned against her as a goddess and now she's giving him a way to atone. Presumably once he dies, she's claim his soul for whatever afterlife awaits her worshippers and all will be well in that respect. The stuff with everybody turning is bad, but I look at how if Gale explodes in act 3 everything is fine for no reason and just chalk it up to bad writing.

So while I agree Mystra's request is harsh and morally gray, I think that's leaps and bounds different from having one perfectly innocent man murder one of her worshippers just because you don't want her dating your daughter. That is leaps and bounds more petty and like you said, it ruins Shadowheart's story and at that point Shar kind of seems like the right choice to side with and Selune loses all appeal. Maybe if for some reason he relationship was putting he greater good at risk somehow, like threatening to put Aylin in Shar's power and thus make Shar stronger, then it would work. But that still feels iffy frankly.

I don't really have much of an argument for that, becauase to me peesonally it doesnt relaly matter if is was Selune specifically. All I know about DnD lore is what BG3 has presented to me and a few brief reads of the wiki.

But someone, somewhere, was pulling shenanigans. And I am extremely interested in that plot line, and wish they had kept it, especially since it gave Halsin more to do. And they clearly recorded lines for it because Halsin's VA mentioned an extremely emotional scene, and I assume this is when Halsin explains what happened with Isobel, confessing that the curse was his fault.

Based in the evidence we have. Someone pulled shenanigans at this meeting between Reithwin and the druids, and got Isobel killed by Halsin. Who they were, and why they did it, I don't know. And because that whole plotline was cut, we wont ever know most likely.

About the shenanigans in the Shadowcursed Lands look at codexes in Grymforge and the House of Hope and talk to a debtor in the House of Hope and you get a glimpse of what has happened and a reason more to despise a certain devil. I don't think, it was ever planned to have Halsin involved in the plot before the Shadowcurse. If I remember correctly, Ketheric turned to Shar after his wife died and to Myrkul for the promise to bring his daughter back. Halsin was part of the group fighting him in the Shar aera and might have accidentally killed Isobel ( in the EA version) during that timeline. I think, he said, that he is indirectly responsible for the Shadowcurse back then in EA, so I thought, Ketheric released the Shadowcurse as revenge for his daughters death. And later turned to Myrkul,when he promised to bring her back.

That works too.

I dont know if it was an in game note or a datamined thing but I feel like I remember reading about it from Halsin's perspctive. He he acted instinctively, his perspective was he was attcked, and he diddnt really know what happened, and he was really negatively afected by the wole thing. So if he killed Isobel durng he first battle of moonrise, something fishy happened either way. I think he did it with the glaive we get for saving he grove that does psycic damage. He said he never wated to see it again, and I know my Tav said something about it making her sad. Im assuming the glave was tainted magically somehow when it was used on Isobel.

But even if he was less involved, he is still involved. The plot was he killed Isobel somehow for some reason, and carries alot of guilt for it because it led to the shadow curse being relased. Thats the premise. He still wants to fix what was done. He feels bad about it. I feel like thats plenty of motivation for him to team up with us and come along, and because we helped him and became friends he continues with us. Im glad they added him as a companion, I am a Halsimp ater all, I just dont think they needed to change all that much about what they were originally gonna do with him, if thats even ths reason for the changes at all. He is a good aligned hero character after all.

Like I said, I don't think the change had anything to do with Halsin. I think they decided to change Isobel's place in the wholse plot and the timeline of things with Kethric and when they did, it didn't make sense for Halsin to have killed her. Kethric turned to Shar because Isobel died, and Halsin only fought Kethric because Kethric turned to Shar, so she had to already have been dead before any first battle where Halsin could have killed her.

I don't really think him having killed Isobel would change much anyway. Even if that had happened, he would still be absolved of those issues after the curse ended, and him continuing to travel with us would still be because he's grateful for our help, which is his motivation currently. Guild over killing Isobel is just an extra tie to the plot that's maybe nice to have, but doesn't actually change anything.

I have to be honest zero problems with Halsins involvement in act 2, that was ok and a pretty badass storyline, my problem is with him being in act 3,since he does nothing there ( if you don't romance him, which I don't).

I also think, he is pretty incompetent as a first druid: he leaves the grove to an inexperienced and insecure young woman,while the much more level headed Rath is right there. He doesn't seem to remember, that he can turn into very small animals and escape, until after the tadpolers free him. He seems to have trouble to control himself in bear form, while every other druid, my pc included, who start as a beginner at level 1, have zero problems with it.
I would have preferred, if Halsin would really be a wise and mature archdruid. As latter he should be at least level 12, I think, and not be recruitable.
There should be an explanation, why he decided to leave the grove to Kagha ( maybe Rath wasn't there or something like that) and why he didn't turn into a mouse and escaped his prison ( anti magic something something - it would be one line in dialogue more to handwave it a bit).

Halsin is the one character,I find rushed and inconsequential written from start to end. People complain about Wyll, but he only needs more reactivity and a bit more to his story, Halsin is a big questionmark for me.

Again fair enough.

I suppose I'm just dissapoined because the changes mean a significant lack of conent for Halsin, which I am thouroughly disspaointed in, especialy given what we got in the end with him. Its better now than it was, but still lacking a bit. And the cut conent I find really compelling, and Im kinda stuck on 'what could have been'

Because what is there, thats good, works really really good for me. I like Halsn for a reason and it isn't bear sex.

I'm honest, I was never interested in this character and don't get the hype at all and am still sad, that he might be the reason,we didn't get a small race companion ( Barcus is right there). But if there would be more to Halsin than a meme romance, I would be convinced to give him a try. For me there is no reason to switch him in as my druid,when we have Jaheira, not only one of my favourite companions through three games now, but one of my favourite DnD NPC's in general. Everything she says and does is great and she is very competent in her role.
Halsin is for me in his current state a waste of a companion slot - and we could have had a halfling werewolf bard ( she wasn't scratched for Halsin, but still).

Just to help clear things up, it's from this findable Book in the Druid's Grove that was in the game, atleast from the first EA version.
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=921669#Post921669
So even negating whatever Act 2 datamined content there was for it, it seems it was initially planned to have Halsin kill Isobel.

Thinking about the change tho, it is abit strange that they decided to revive Isobel, given that she doesn't really do much in the game that couldn't have been another Selunite.

That and for me its strange that they would have all this content for him originaly not bieng a companion, then make him a companion and cut most if it out.

I think they changed the story well before deciding to make him a companion. I suspect that if we want to figure out what happened, we need to focus on Isobel, Shadowheart and Aylin, rather than Halsin. I think Halsin was just a casualty of a change in direction surrounding those characters, rather than being the focus.

If you really look at Shadowheart's place in the story and how it goes in act 2, there's actually a lot of stuff that doesn't really make sense. Shadowheart is apparently meant to become Shar's chosen by using a super important spear to kill Aylin. But why is killing Aylin that important? So important that it warrants a prophecy. Also Kethric apparently had to send Balthazar to seek out Aylin despite those two being the ones to capture her in the first place. Also, why does Shadowheart's hair turn white if she abandon's Shar? that just never comes up even though it's not like it used to be white and her hair went black after she was kidnapped. And why does Aylin instantly have insight into this random girl who came before her? Also, Halsin would have known about Aylin, since a divine emmissary visiting a nearby village on the regular would be THE thing everyone talks about and now way would he not have heard about it.

I think that there used to be a story where Shadowheart and Isobel and Aylin were way more intertwined, and that changed in a big way.

She dyed her hair white, no?


I can kinda buy that Aylin knew of Shadowhearts origins given that she's in Shar's realm as the Nightsong, just absorbing memories given to the Mirror, but the game doesn't suggest any of that so it's mostly headcannon territory.
And, I mean, most of Act 2 also looks generally haphazardly written when you look at it closely anyway...

And for your last point, going back to the datamines from EA release for maybe more insight, Nightsong wasn't Aylin and you were originally going to choose between Kethericor a boss fight vs the Nightsong.
However, in saying that, thats about all I read/found and I imagine it was pretty undeveloped, despite all the lead up to Ketheric via Grymforge. Although, Larian did reference that Ketheric was to be a companion, so maybe this old path was what they're referencing?

Edit: Was slightly wrong, I found the dialogue parser tool which shows that there was a Necromancer, Sevryn, whom you could side with a kill the Nightsong for him. Unfortunately, all the dialogue options are missing in the localization file (?), so its all just ID lines; Those files is also where I found the couple of lines about siding with Ketheric vs Nightsong.
It was also apparently meant to be set in Act 1 too.

Otherwise, it'd be interesting to read why things changed the way they did and I wonder how the Dead Three was originally, given the Absolute's symbol is the it all combined.

Shadowhearts hair dies come up: She says, she died it to mark that big change in her life.

I agree with the assessment that the changes to the Nightsong/Aylin also heavily impacted Halsin. Aylin in no way fits anything that would reasonably be called the Nightsong and whatever it was originally supposed to be probably made a lot more sense. Having to shift Aylin and therefor Isobel and Shadowheart around so much after changing the Nightsong definitely hit Halsin's involvement with the Shadow Curse pretty hard.

Halsin is good for one thing and that thing happens in Act III.

This is the way and Heroes Feast in camp.