Originally Posted by Sereda2
Originally Posted by starryophonic
The closest thing to a negative emotion I felt for that line was surprise, that the game would so blatantly point out that a player who ascends him might be someone who likes to be dominated. It's not a source of anxiety for me; it's something I've long accepted as something I'm into.

That is interesting. I think the game is making a lot of assumptions about the player with Astarion and not giving a wide enough variety of choices, especially if you ascend him. Personally, I'm not that into being dominated in fantasy and would like to have the choice to gently push back on this line. My Tav wants to be with him, not to serve, though it wouldn't be a deal breaker fro my Tav, I could head cannon it that he'd just assume Astarion was still a little insecure and humour him.

The assumption that you like degrading yourself - (Astarion says this if you use detect thoughts) I really think the player should be able to respond to this either to confirm or rebutt it.

The assumption that choosing ascension is because the player wants to be a vampire or is some sort of vampire sex kink (player using him for their own gratification in other words)

The assumption that the player will be terrified of him when asking for a kiss.

I don't have an issue with most of these assumptions being made if the player is given a choice to respond in a different way. Unfortunately, we are being railroaded at certain points and given no meaningful choices at all. The kiss is an outlier because it completely contradicts what is said in the text when you speak to Ascended Astarion.

I'm not sure if this stems from 'moral panic' over material that appeals mainly to women and non-cis males or if it is simply that the writer(s) felt a little uncomfortable with the Dark Romance genre, did not like it personally, and then made assumptions about the sort of people who would enjoy it.

Interesting point that U.S. culture may be less comfortable with Dark Romance than say European, where it has been a long-established genre.

I think that's a really fair point. I try not to nitpick too much because I know we can't have the exact dialog checks we want whenever we want, but there are definitely a few lines it would have been nice to push back against him. I guess I saw the next dialog options as a way to gently push back against the idea you want to obey him, but it's not very explicit. I chose, "I'm not afraid of you," because I pictured my Tav standing up tall and smiling that she said that, a way for her to say, "I'm happy to obey you, but if you cross the line I'm not afraid to end you." But that, written out, indicates a level of mental gymnastics that I agree, the game shouldn't be making anyone do. It would be better to have a dialog check right after the "await my command" line where you can say something like, "I'm so looking forward to your commands," "Depends on the command," or, "No way creep." Something like that. If they had that, I wonder if as many people would have felt uncomfortable with the line.


Originally Posted by Natasy
Originally Posted by starryophonic
I understand the point of view of people who say, "Ascended Astarion is only nice to you as long as you agree with everything he says." But I think that assumes that a Tav who agrees with him is ONLY doing it to not incur his wrath, and not because they genuinely do agree with him. If you break up with him before the endgame, he gets furious. Of course he does! Because where the hell is that coming from after everything you did for him? It would be weird if he didn't get mad. Besides, it's hard to make that argument when there were plenty of lines that weren't straight up agreeing with him, or even disagreeing with him. When he suggests we control the brain and I tell him we can't trust it, he just says, "We'll see." Yeah, I guess that's a good point! Neither of us knew at this point if we could actually trust it. He doesn't even get mad if you refuse to bite the drow twins in the brothel. So cruel, right? I just can't get down with condemning a character simply because of the potential for him to turn into a monster offscreen.

All of this is an excellent point. Wanted to jump in and add that I disagree with the "oh he's only nice if you agree with him", because there isn't really fleshed out dialogue where players can agree and disagree with him in the game regardless?

The only instance I've seen used is the breakup dialogue. And of course, comparing him to his abuser. Which, why would he ever be happy and nice about that? The player dialogue choices there are mean and antagonistic.

But I'm neglecting to see what these people are actually referring to, because in game cutscenes don't really give you that option outside of his person quest. Where are these day to day disagreements or agreements? And where does he get mad?

It just seems like inflammatory language to make one path look worse than it actually is. I see a lot of disinformation in general get spread about the ascension path. It's disheartening.

Having completed my playthrough now (I'm just milling about the epilogue party after last night) AND having tried the evil ending (the way Tav and AA look at each other made me blush, though of course I couldn't leave them that way, so I reloaded), I feel like I now have enough information to say, the "AA is about the cycle of abuse theory" is whack. Astarion let Lethe decide how they would live their lives after the tadpoles were gone. He encouraged her to mingle with her friends at the party. When I reloaded and gave myself the good ending, I was expecting him to show disapproval since he had approved of the bad ending so thoroughly, to make some kind of snide comment at some point in the following scenes or the epilogue about how we could have had it all, and I squandered the opportunity. But nope. I don't think he even mentioned it (I like to think that deep down, he knew we couldn't really trust the brain. Maybe he and Tav even talked about it offscreen).

That reminds me of another out of context "AA is bad" piece of evidence. The only other bit of AA/spawn Tav interaction I'd seen at the party before that was a conversation where the Tav told AA that she didn't feel like they were flourishing the way he said and she wanted her freedom. A lot of people already know, he doesn't take that well, saying, "Not this again...Have fun with your so-called friends. I'll be here when you're done." There were comments pointing out how nasty he is to her, how he's trying to isolate her from her friends. But now that I've seen how he reacts when you say nice things, not even deferential, "yes my dark lord," type of stuff. Just normal stuff you'd say to your partner at a party where you're both trying to catch up with people. "Do you want anything?" "It's good to see everyone." Etc. He seems genuinely happy to hear that the others are doing well. He repeatedly encourages you to go talk to everyone. So when I go back and watch the "bad" reaction, I feel much more sympathy for Astarion. Yes, if Tav truly wants her freedom he should grant it; in a real-world scenario that would not be cool. But in this world, she basically signed a contract then, it sounds like, practically immediately started whining about it. Even at a party where she's supposed to be having fun with her friends, she's whining about it. Of course he's sick of it. His reaction isn't mature, but it's understandable.

Whereas if you talk to him like he's an actual partner, he gives incredibly charming banter, doesn't imply that these people aren't your real friends (and asks for all the tea, though I was disappointed he didn't react when I tried to tell him the juicy stuff that happened to Gale), and tells you how much you mean to him.


Originally Posted by Mirmi
A lovely post that I saw recently.

3) Responsibility. As you realize there are paternal issues and co-dependency in this relationship and you can't completely submit to anyone in real life, I don't think I need to explain why it's a dangerous idea to seek this kind of relationship in real life. You have to remain an independent adult and seek safety for yourself without expecting someone to come along and heal all your wounds. But it is a fantasy, and you can finally use it as a comforting fantasy without fear of being taken advantage of, without shame of being called infantile, childish, etc.....

5) Sexual Trauma: this wasn't even considered by the writer as a possibility for healing, but for some people it is. Asc Astarion feels like he's the most powerful being in the world and has complete control over everything that happens between him and Tav, so it's finally a kind of situation where there's no chance of him being abused again. This is one of the reasons why some people become Doms in BDSM relationships: finally total control over the process and a partner who trusts in a way that is completely submissive. Trust issues are also a big problem in Astarion's healing story.
I find the idea that only Sab can enjoy Asc Astarion a bit naive. Because, well, I have news for you: the Doms like him too, because they understand why he's so eager to be top laugh

Unrealistic, not the healthiest way? Maybe!!! But this man and this love is still not realistic.

Yes, I think many of us, especially those who have been through therapy and have done a lot of self-reflection, already understand that it's basically a romanticized version of narcissistic obsession, and it's creepy in real life, but it's not real, it's fantasy.
People use BDSM for healing, romance books, and all other forms of art to deal with their inner demons, and that's totally fine.

Even if someone is blind and can't see what's wrong with Asc Astarion, I highly doubt a toxic bucket of shame and aggression can help someone see the problematic side of things. You know who usually romanticizes toxic dynamics in romantic relationships? Victims of abuse. In real life, if you yell and scream at any poor girl/guy about how stupid they are for believing that their abusive partner actually loves them, people will either break down and cry or tell you to "fuck off," and they have every right to, but they won't see what's wrong with their partner, who quite often abuse victims see as their only source of love and security in life.

Damn it, I'm so tired of this toxic stream of "knights in white coats rescuing from abusive relationships" in this fandom. If you really want to enlighten people - do it with extreme care and compassion.
Healing in real life doesn't work the way it does with Astarion in the game, a few proper dialogs and boom, dude's on the right track. It takes a tremendous amount of patience and love, be good to each other and stay safe, darlings.

By being toxic on Asc fans you are not helping anyone, you are pushing the button of your superiority complex up your own ***.

What a lovely essay. The point about why Astarion is dominant, and why people might indulge in submissive fantasies, is really well said. I think sexual deviancy in general, whether you're a dom or a sub, is met with a lot of disgust, and an assumption that there must be something wrong with you. As someone who's submissive, I've had a lot of people assume that it's the result of abuse. But this is just the way I've always been. The one time I was in an abusive relationship (and it was an LDR, so luckily there was no physical damage, "just" emotional) was long after I already knew this about myself, but was still quite young and naive and vulnerable to bad actors who wanted to take advantage of how I felt without educating me on things like the importance of consent. It took a lot of therapy and time to accept this side of myself as something normal, and honestly, screw anyone who looks at me with pity. There's nothing wrong with me. I'm not submissive in my every day life; quite the contrary, I'm usually the loudest, most obnoxious voice in the room. I'm assertive when it comes to the things I value. But I'm also someone who's always gotten easily overwhelmed by the weight of just the sheer number of things we need to do to stay alive. Submissive fantasies are an escape from that; a way for me to mentally escape from the responsibilities of life. As I've gotten older and more responsibilities have naturally been added to my plate (a job, a child, helping to run a household with a partner who has responsibilities and needs of his own to contend with, and all the other glorious stuff that comes from adulting), these types of fantasies have become even more important for me to be able to reset and be present for my family and the tasks I need to complete.

The "white knight" thing is so irritating to me too. During the endgame, when
the emperor calls himself "your knight in shining armor"
it was an immediate turn-off for me and felt like that character was just trying to manipulate my emotions, but in a much clumsier way than we'd seen Astarion do. I don't like when men call themselves "nice guys" in real life, and I wouldn't like it if AA called himself that or a white knight, or whatever. He might say some cheeky, manipulative stuff sometimes, but he's shown Tav she can trust him by his deeds.

Last edited by starryophonic; 10/05/24 03:42 PM.