Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

That is interesting. I think the game is making a lot of assumptions about the player with Astarion and not giving a wide enough variety of choices, especially if you ascend him. Personally, I'm not that into being dominated in fantasy and would like to have the choice to gently push back on this line. My Tav wants to be with him, not to serve, though it wouldn't be a deal breaker fro my Tav, I could head cannon it that he'd just assume Astarion was still a little insecure and humour him.

The assumption that you like degrading yourself - (Astarion says this if you use detect thoughts) I really think the player should be able to respond to this either to confirm or rebutt it.

The assumption that choosing ascension is because the player wants to be a vampire or is some sort of vampire sex kink (player using him for their own gratification in other words)

The assumption that the player will be terrified of him when asking for a kiss.

I don't have an issue with most of these assumptions being made if the player is given a choice to respond in a different way. Unfortunately, we are being railroaded at certain points and given no meaningful choices at all. The kiss is an outlier because it completely contradicts what is said in the text when you speak to Ascended Astarion.

I'm not sure if this stems from 'moral panic' over material that appeals mainly to women and non-cis males or if it is simply that the writer(s) felt a little uncomfortable with the Dark Romance genre, did not like it personally, and then made assumptions about the sort of people who would enjoy it.

Interesting point that U.S. culture may be less comfortable with Dark Romance than say European, where it has been a long-established genre.

All of this is an excellent point. Wanted to jump in and add that I disagree with the "oh he's only nice if you agree with him", because there isn't really fleshed out dialogue where players can agree and disagree with him in the game regardless?

The only instance I've seen used is the breakup dialogue. And of course, comparing him to his abuser. Which, why would he ever be happy and nice about that? The player dialogue choices there are mean and antagonistic.

But I'm neglecting to see what these people are actually referring to, because in game cutscenes don't really give you that option outside of his person quest. Where are these day to day disagreements or agreements? And where does he get mad?

It just seems like inflammatory language to make one path look worse than it actually is. I see a lot of disinformation in general get spread about the ascension path. It's disheartening.

To be honest I don't think I have EVER seen Astarion lose his temper with me, in countless playthroughs both as Spawn and as Ascended.
The most he ever gets is a touch grouchy if you're doing all the nice options and not talking to him and that's not in his conversations, its just remarks he makes as you're travelling sort of thing.
Although I have never compared him to Cazador - why on earth would I do that, even Ascended he's nothing like Cazador.
And I have never broken up with him - but I've seen it on U tube - he shouts, that's about it really, then goes into a sulk for a couple of days (why would he be expected to do anything else? You know many people who take a break up with someone they love really well and don't even go sulky for a day or two?) then he's back to normal.

The people who are against Ascended (and even more so the ones who have never even played that path) seem to make things up a lot. Maybe they hear what they expect to hear rather than what is actually said or they pick argumentative options because they expect the argument so go out of their way to get one - who knows?

Astarion is amazing! Neither him nor my Tav have ever been in disagreement. I will not break up with him. I do not know why people are all up in arms over the Ascension. I guess their head canon is way different from mine. I think that Larian will hopefully hear our pleas for improved kisses from the ones I personally do not like from patch 6 and the unfortunate dialogue post ascension that Larian needs to fix. Then I will be 10000% happy with the Ascension. I am still going to choose that option over and over and over. I would like the entire story to match, that is why I want the 2 things changed as I requested in the feedback and suggestion threads. Otherwise, I love the whole part of Astarion. I play solo and feel that all head canons should be allowed to be role played. Why some people are against it, that is their issue. Not mine. I don't want their head canon. I have my own. I also have had an abusive thing happen to me in my past, and a video game is not where I want it to play out either. I would just like everyone to be happy with their game. All in all, Larian should be able to provide, since we love this character and love this game. I would love to be able to come back once they fix the two tiny little things I do not agree with, for a world wide release of a game that won the GOTY.

@ starryophonic
I enjoyed reading your post and I agree with a lot. I am glad, that you made your own choices and experience.



At a certain point, I also read such comments and those statements and was irritated by the controversy, but especially by insults towards those who help Astarion ascend, which made me think: "Everyone can play their RPG however they want." And no one should let something like that influence them (unfortunately many do) or feel bad for their game, but go their own way and have their own experience and feel with their own heart. That's how I always think. And I'm happy to try to form my own opinion (Off topic: For me, dictatorships, even in smaller forms, are the most despicable thing in humanity.) So even though I preferred to play one variant at first (ascension), I played both routes (except Spawn's ending scenes). No matter how many people want to tell a cock-and-bull story, I like the Ascencion route much better. Everyone should decide for themselves and try out what they like.


Yes, it's absolutely not true that you have to play a Durge or evil run. I played a naive, nice and sweet boy and it was THE perfect match and the best dark romance I was able to experience from the very beginning in act 1 to the epilogue. (Almost!) everything fit together perfectly. Astarion mentioned a "sweet man" that he couldn't bring to Cazador, one of the saddest scenes in the game, and it felt that my sweet man was the perfect match for Astarion. I loved my playthrough.


I think all Tavs have that smirk, my male Tav did it as well. I agree with you, these are powerful scenes and it's incredible to watch Astarion receiving the power he sought. The mind linking is a great, meaningful moment and you feel yourself being Justitia, the goddess of justice, and feel satisfaction when Astarion carves the runes into Cazador's flesh, like he did to him.


And it was written for me! I really like that line and it gave me chills, too. On the one hand, you think: "oh-oh, what have I done" (and: "Putting yourself on an equal footing with the goddess Justitia was a bit arrogant, Astarion is and remains a narcissist!"), and on the other hand you're melting under his new power and dominance, because that's what you were hoping for, when you met him for the first time and he was throwing you to the ground and threatened you with the knife or when you found out in the goblin camp, he is into some special kink and that he enjoys to be dominant.

This scene is also one of my favourite scenes. I like the arrogance of Astarion and how he behaves there. I also had this perfect line, you mentioned.
Unfortunately they changed Astarion's great and proud facial expressions (which really fit before patch 5) into some ugly and comical disgusted faces, only god knows why they made his facial expressions worse.. they don't make sense compared to the pride and self-confidence in his voice / the voice acting. Here you can see the difference, we also suggested to change it back in another thread, if you are interested in seeing the difference: https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=934229#Post934229

Our character suddenly being sad and who is detesting Astarion in those new added "kisses", an extra romance thing (while Tav is and always was in love right before and after these scenes until the epilogue and also in the old kisses before patch 6) doesn't make sense and is a great failure. Plus it's a huge disservice to us fans, to survivors of abuse or violence, to people suffering from depressions and to the bdsm community as well. Hopefully, the Larian team will take this misstep back and rework Tav. I but no longer believe that Larian will be able to bring the joy back to the fans and to people who suffered from this change. I have finished my playthrough before patch 6 and now I am (like other people) not playing a second one after seeing the harm of real people after this questionable "valentine's" patch changes. I don't know yet, if I'll come back to play this game, I am enjoying other things, time will tell, but at least I still hope for all the other people, that Larian will understand, what happened, and make it better in the future.
By the way, if you are interested in reading other posts about this subject, when the patch was released, there is also this thread, where some people started to talk about the new scenes in february, maybe it starts here: https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=942533&page=12


Thank you so much for your post!

"50 Shades" - totally disliked it because of the fact that it's about "an romance with a millionaire". Romance with a millionaire, in my opinion, is a stamp of cheap tabloid reading, just mentally remove from the book all the BDSM, so attracted the audience, and what without BDSM in this book will remain? It feels like the heroine is breaking herself for dough, honoring a contract, and then sort of falling in love and trying to "soften" or fix this "dominant" guy who was born with a golden spoon in his mouth. When I boredly imagined myself in her place, I realized that I would probably agree to such a contract on one condition - if before this smart guy lives at least six months, blocking all his bank accounts from himself, getting some hard and ungrateful job - a loader, janitor, or at least a waiter or salesman, rent some hole on his salary, and will live only on the money he earned on this job. For the sake of such a thing, you can risk being a subordinate, but he himself will flake out and quickly run away, and there will be no funny story.


Yeah, I realized later, after going through it, that this is what the game meant. The very idea of a sex store, when the authors imagine the player as a person who makes important choices based on his own sexual preferences, I don't like it at all, or at least the character should be presented immediately and explicitly as a character who has special tastes, so that people like me would get it right away. But I really enjoyed the experience! In addition, I met and talked to interesting people who are into the topic of BDSM, broadened my horizons and learned something new about myself among other things. I catch myself thinking that in the previous post I did not quite correctly wrote that then with Astarion "there is no submission", there is, and those who like it, pick up on it. It would be more correct to say "there is no submission in a form that crosses the line beyond which that submission would make me feel lousy". I see D/s as therapy for Astarion, to give him pleasure if that's how he feels best. It's no problem for me, it's not a big deal, as long as it makes him feel good. I can "dominate" opponents elsewhere if I want to, after all. The knights of the past kneeled before the lady of the heart, elevating her without humiliating themselves, why can't a woman behave in the same way towards a man, are we actually equal or not? After the ritual, Astarion catches the "arrival" of the sudden power, his senses are heightened, new feelings appear, you can imagine what he feels at that, his behavior changes. But after a while he calms down, gets used to it and becomes himself, really becomes himself, he no longer needs to wear masks, play roles, adjust, he is completely free.


It makes me laugh, too. My Tav hasn't been a coward the whole game, and now it's all fear of wrath. And it's not Merisue, I IRL with all my will I can never be so cowardly as they describe it. In general, the theme of fear in the game is presented in a very strange way, you take the power - it means you're afraid. In general, they don't see the difference between fear and rational readiness to face danger. I don't know what kind of hothouse conditions a person must live in to be seriously afraid of everything the game suggests to be afraid of. I don't lick icicles in the cold because I'm a coward and very afraid of the frozen tongue effect, and so I've only ever dreamed of it my whole life, based on this logic of the fearful victim-Tav. And Astarion is happy to have defeated the brain, he doesn't even remember offering to control it, he's happy to finally be free of the larva. I'll bet anything that in the future, if Astarion suddenly wants to do something dangerous with unreasonable risk and Tav takes his hand and says, "Nope, my love, we're not going to do that because of this and that," he'll have the exact same reaction. I couldn't choose a breakup phrase in my game, I can't hurt my Astarion, I watched the video and this one is not cruelty in any way, he's suffering, he's been betrayed. Suddenly betrayed by the one person he could only trust. I can't feel anything other than pain for him at all when I see this, and a desire to comfort him and console him. All those petty fears and resentments just can't be experienced or imagined.

I don't agree that AA is for evil passing either. I started my acquaintance with Larian Studios with Divinity: Original Sin 2. I always liked to play as "evil" - undead, demons. That's why my first hero for passing was Fane (undead skeleton). According to the plot it turned out that he assured the brewed story, but now fixes for himself what he has done. In BG3, I picked up Dark Urge right away. Without researching what his plot was. Intrigue, interest, appearance only changed from lizard to tiefling girl. And gods, I never once regretted picking it up. History again, like with Fane, fixing what I'd done. And not once was I an evil character, I helped everyone, took quests from everyone, resisted the urge. In the entire game, I only had Alfira and the hunter get hurt. And Astarion. Because I left him as Spavnom. And after I saw the ending and how they make fun of him, I decided, what the hell is there on ascension? That's it. There's no going back. "Yes, my treasure," and I forgot that he wanted to subjugate the whole world until the sun burned out. All right, you're allowed. You can go over your knees, as it turns out.


I think if you could talk to him later after the ritual, he'd say something along the lines of, "I was drunk! Literally drunk! You saw how much blood there was! And if I told you I was the reincarnation of Baal, would you believe me too?
I'm not even sure if I can summon wolves or crawl on walls yet, I won't figure that out until the end of the game. But come on, give me a lecture.

A lovely post that I saw recently.He's not mine. But he so much I liked it, probably because I agree with a lot of it, that I want to share it with others.:

"Guess what, I wrote this "little" essay and decided to leave it in some Asc Astarion tracks because all this drama is annoying me enough that I feel the need to share some thoughts on toxic vampire love in the name of universal enlightenment. If you like it, feel free to repost it anywhere. (which I am doing)

So, what this dark romantic fantasy is about for me personally (although I prefer spawn romance, I absolutely understand the appeal of Asc Astarion because, honestly, I was all about that kind of romance as a kid and teenager, hardcore ghost opera fan) and why it's also a healing path for some players, and no, it's not about kinky vampire fucking.

1) A lot of people feel extremely worthless and insecure and alone, like no one cares about them. This is a very deep wound that hurts, and it's hard to overcome even in a perfectly loving, healthy and supportive relationship with a good partner, and even with therapy. So fantasizing about a vampire obsessed enough to do anything just to be with you forever is really comforting. Also, you don't have to think too much about your flaws, because to him you're like the center of his vampire heart.
Plus, you sympathize with him - it's like a mirror of self-soothing: I love this monster no matter what, so in a way I accept myself despite all the flaws I see in myself.

2) Safety. When the world around you seems like a wild place full of monsters, it seems like only the scariest, most loving monster can protect you from them. He's powerful and protective, and he cares for me so much that he's willing to set the whole world on fire just to keep me safe.

3) Responsibility. As you realize there are paternal issues and co-dependency in this relationship and you can't completely submit to anyone in real life, I don't think I need to explain why it's a dangerous idea to seek this kind of relationship in real life. You have to remain an independent adult and seek safety for yourself without expecting someone to come along and heal all your wounds. But it is a fantasy, and you can finally use it as a comforting fantasy without fear of being taken advantage of, without shame of being called infantile, childish, etc.

4) Independence. Spawn's ending is very scary for those who have issues with feeling safe and independent, because some of us prefer violent power fantasies over "we have each other and that's all that matters."
Second, this ending also has a kind of shadowy co-dependency that can be a trigger for some people. I love Spun Astarion a little more than Asc, and yet my heart was left absolutely broken after the fleeing from the sun scene, and I hate that he's so dependent on Tav. Larian owe me emotional compensation after that.

5) Sexual Trauma: this wasn't even considered by the writer as a possibility for healing, but for some people it is. Asc Astarion feels like he's the most powerful being in the world and has complete control over everything that happens between him and Tav, so it's finally a kind of situation where there's no chance of him being abused again. This is one of the reasons why some people become Doms in BDSM relationships: finally total control over the process and a partner who trusts in a way that is completely submissive. Trust issues are also a big problem in Astarion's healing story.
I find the idea that only Sab can enjoy Asc Astarion a bit naive. Because, well, I have news for you: the Doms like him too, because they understand why he's so eager to be top

Unrealistic, not the healthiest way? Maybe!!! But this man and this love is still not realistic.

Yes, I think many of us, especially those who have been through therapy and have done a lot of self-reflection, already understand that it's basically a romanticized version of narcissistic obsession, and it's creepy in real life, but it's not real, it's fantasy.
People use BDSM for healing, romance books, and all other forms of art to deal with their inner demons, and that's totally fine.

Even if someone is blind and can't see what's wrong with Asc Astarion, I highly doubt a toxic bucket of shame and aggression can help someone see the problematic side of things. You know who usually romanticizes toxic dynamics in romantic relationships? Victims of abuse. In real life, if you yell and scream at any poor girl/guy about how stupid they are for believing that their abusive partner actually loves them, people will either break down and cry or tell you to "fuck off," and they have every right to, but they won't see what's wrong with their partner, who quite often abuse victims see as their only source of love and security in life.

Damn it, I'm so tired of this toxic stream of "knights in white coats rescuing from abusive relationships" in this fandom. If you really want to enlighten people - do it with extreme care and compassion.
Healing in real life doesn't work the way it does with Astarion in the game, a few proper dialogs and boom, dude's on the right track. It takes a tremendous amount of patience and love, be good to each other and stay safe, darlings.

By being toxic on Asc fans you are not helping anyone, you are pushing the button of your superiority complex up your own ***.

Treating others with your lethal dose of poison is laughable.

/ Pardon the wall of text, and apologize for the grammar, English is not my first language\."

Thanks to the esteemed author if she sees this. Rays of love and kindness.

I think that's a really fair point. I try not to nitpick too much because I know we can't have the exact dialog checks we want whenever we want, but there are definitely a few lines it would have been nice to push back against him. I guess I saw the next dialog options as a way to gently push back against the idea you want to obey him, but it's not very explicit. I chose, "I'm not afraid of you," because I pictured my Tav standing up tall and smiling that she said that, a way for her to say, "I'm happy to obey you, but if you cross the line I'm not afraid to end you." But that, written out, indicates a level of mental gymnastics that I agree, the game shouldn't be making anyone do. It would be better to have a dialog check right after the "await my command" line where you can say something like, "I'm so looking forward to your commands," "Depends on the command," or, "No way creep." Something like that. If they had that, I wonder if as many people would have felt uncomfortable with the line.



Having completed my playthrough now (I'm just milling about the epilogue party after last night) AND having tried the evil ending (the way Tav and AA look at each other made me blush, though of course I couldn't leave them that way, so I reloaded), I feel like I now have enough information to say, the "AA is about the cycle of abuse theory" is whack. Astarion let Lethe decide how they would live their lives after the tadpoles were gone. He encouraged her to mingle with her friends at the party. When I reloaded and gave myself the good ending, I was expecting him to show disapproval since he had approved of the bad ending so thoroughly, to make some kind of snide comment at some point in the following scenes or the epilogue about how we could have had it all, and I squandered the opportunity. But nope. I don't think he even mentioned it (I like to think that deep down, he knew we couldn't really trust the brain. Maybe he and Tav even talked about it offscreen).

That reminds me of another out of context "AA is bad" piece of evidence. The only other bit of AA/spawn Tav interaction I'd seen at the party before that was a conversation where the Tav told AA that she didn't feel like they were flourishing the way he said and she wanted her freedom. A lot of people already know, he doesn't take that well, saying, "Not this again...Have fun with your so-called friends. I'll be here when you're done." There were comments pointing out how nasty he is to her, how he's trying to isolate her from her friends. But now that I've seen how he reacts when you say nice things, not even deferential, "yes my dark lord," type of stuff. Just normal stuff you'd say to your partner at a party where you're both trying to catch up with people. "Do you want anything?" "It's good to see everyone." Etc. He seems genuinely happy to hear that the others are doing well. He repeatedly encourages you to go talk to everyone. So when I go back and watch the "bad" reaction, I feel much more sympathy for Astarion. Yes, if Tav truly wants her freedom he should grant it; in a real-world scenario that would not be cool. But in this world, she basically signed a contract then, it sounds like, practically immediately started whining about it. Even at a party where she's supposed to be having fun with her friends, she's whining about it. Of course he's sick of it. His reaction isn't mature, but it's understandable.

Whereas if you talk to him like he's an actual partner, he gives incredibly charming banter, doesn't imply that these people aren't your real friends (and asks for all the tea, though I was disappointed he didn't react when I tried to tell him the juicy stuff that happened to Gale), and tells you how much you mean to him.



What a lovely essay. The point about why Astarion is dominant, and why people might indulge in submissive fantasies, is really well said. I think sexual deviancy in general, whether you're a dom or a sub, is met with a lot of disgust, and an assumption that there must be something wrong with you. As someone who's submissive, I've had a lot of people assume that it's the result of abuse. But this is just the way I've always been. The one time I was in an abusive relationship (and it was an LDR, so luckily there was no physical damage, "just" emotional) was long after I already knew this about myself, but was still quite young and naive and vulnerable to bad actors who wanted to take advantage of how I felt without educating me on things like the importance of consent. It took a lot of therapy and time to accept this side of myself as something normal, and honestly, screw anyone who looks at me with pity. There's nothing wrong with me. I'm not submissive in my every day life; quite the contrary, I'm usually the loudest, most obnoxious voice in the room. I'm assertive when it comes to the things I value. But I'm also someone who's always gotten easily overwhelmed by the weight of just the sheer number of things we need to do to stay alive. Submissive fantasies are an escape from that; a way for me to mentally escape from the responsibilities of life. As I've gotten older and more responsibilities have naturally been added to my plate (a job, a child, helping to run a household with a partner who has responsibilities and needs of his own to contend with, and all the other glorious stuff that comes from adulting), these types of fantasies have become even more important for me to be able to reset and be present for my family and the tasks I need to complete.

The "white knight" thing is so irritating to me too. During the endgame, when it was an immediate turn-off for me and felt like that character was just trying to manipulate my emotions, but in a much clumsier way than we'd seen Astarion do. I don't like when men call themselves "nice guys" in real life, and I wouldn't like it if AA called himself that or a white knight, or whatever. He might say some cheeky, manipulative stuff sometimes, but he's shown Tav she can trust him by his deeds.

He is simply a reactive person and many people behave the same way he does - if you're nice to him, he reciprocates and if you're unpleasant, he's snippy. He's very hurt when you break up with him, which again is a normal reaction. It has nothing to do with being scared of him and trying to please him so he doesn't lash out. The cycle of abuse dead horse by now doesn't come directly from AA's storyline but from the spawn one and then it's used as an explanation for why AA is behaving the way he is and used like a mantra, because people badly want him to be Cazador 2.0 so they can feel good about their own choice and have reasons to feel morally superior over those who play differently. Apparently wanting to allow your companions to make their own life choices without judging them and choosing what fits your Tav's personality and story is a bad way to play an RPG, haha.


I loved Fane too! He was my best friend in the game. I started adoring him as soon as he did that "aaaah... monster!" imitation of hateful villagers with pitchforks.

I literally just saw a reel while scrolling Instagram that was a post-ascension conversation between UA and his partnered Tav. It's a lovely conversation, sure, he thanks her for saving him from himself, alright, I suppose I can buy that. I don't see how it invalidates that he's happy as AA. I firmly believe both can be true at the same time, that he would be able to find happiness without ascension, and with it. The path just looks different depending on which you choose. There are plenty of choices I've made that I think, if I had gone a different way, I could be happy, but I'm also happy with the path I chose.

But first, he said something like, "For a moment, all I saw was the power I wanted" and I thought, wym, for a moment? You've been talking about this for weeks, never wavering that this was what you wanted. And second, the poster had to add a line to the end of their description like, "Tell me again how ascension isn't perpetuating the cycle." Why do you have to throw shade at AA and his fans like that? Who does that serve? Do you need to do that in order to make yourself feel better about the storyline you chose? Why can't you just post your nice video and not try to tear down fans of another storyline while you're at it?

That's my blue dream... Astarion assumes that Tav likes to degrade herself. I sometimes try to imagine what would happen if Astarion knew the truth? For myself, I see "service" as caring and admiring.


It's interesting that if you just put yourself in his shoes and try to feel all this meanness and antagonism from a person you loved very much and only started to trust... It seems to me that if you take some random people, not evil, not cruel, but not robots either, but living people with feelings, put in the same situation, take their mocap, take their lines, we will get much more "toxic" options than the one given to us in the game. And that interesting buzzword is "betray=ask for freedom".


I'm also curious how differently this phrase is perceived when the scene is replayed, when you already know that everything will be fine. I wonder, if Astarion is a narcissist and admires himself, what would be the name of a character who admires Astarion himself in the same way?


He then talks about how "You must be expecting me to..." Basically, that he hasn't sorted out all his new powers yet. And so, like, a little embarrassed, but not to lose face. It's adorable, I can't hold back a smile of cuteness at this point.


Indeed! So this is the first character in my life, the first character that I genuinely wanted to "give the reins" over myself to. There's no chance of him being abused again.Giving him control in a relationship is, it turns out, more valuable than any vows of eternal love and devotion Tav might have said. We can deal with the outside world, we have enough strength, and the "inner world" of the couple also thus becomes as comfortable and cozy for him as possible. And he likes to be the protector: "The Ascended Vampire is on your side, you have nothing to fear!" God, I even have an official confirmation from Astarion that I have nothing to fear, why paint the face of a frightened victim on me?

Very good post, thank you, and would like to add one more reason from myself.

To feel like a woman. Not just a "tank" breaking through walls. I am not saying that I want someone to solve problems for me, I know how to solve problems, but at least to play it, to pretend... I like the "treasure" - I feel beautiful (after Ascension Astarion says: "You are beautiful! And you will be beautiful forever!") Afterward, it makes me want to act more refined, stop swearing bad words and such. I like "My little spawn!" - makes me want to giggle and be a "little girl" for a bit. When Astarion tells Tav not to worry, she belongs only to him, it's like "I'll never leave you". I love everything he says to me. Though I miss the occasional playful lines from chapter two too, like, "Can we? I suppose we can," or "I'm listening to you with all my pointy ears," but all in good time.

But " Nothing special, of course..." - that's not my dream relationship. While I didn't care at all about what the relationship would be like when choosing, I cared about what was best for him. When I came across the line, "If you love Astarion, do not ascend him under any circumstances, or you will lose him!", before the ritual, it made me nervous, I was scared, suddenly, Astarion will die, because the word " loss" is used in that meaning. Well, or break up with Tav, leave her - that could be seen as a loss too. And this, it turns out, is another funny example of "another language". "Losing him" means "he's started to behave in a way that doesn't suit me."

I can honestly say that for me, for my character, there is not a single bit of toxicity in my relationship with Astarion. I haven't heard a single devaluing remark from him in the entire game. Only the repulsion kiss after the bite is specifically toxic to me, and that's it. Astarion doesn't try to make Tav feel worthless like an abuser should, he doesn't try to lower her self-esteem, he doesn't try to criticize and hurt her with words, taking advantage of the fact that she let him get too close and started to trust him. On the contrary, he is absolutely and unconditionally in love, I feel confidence and peace of mind in such a relationship. I can love him with full commitment and not think about how I'm behaving or if it's "right" to behave that way in a relationship. I know that he will happily eat it and ask for more, with Astarion I can afford not to restrain my temper. I'm not blind and I realize that it's not like that for everyone, that not everyone gets high from possessive displays in their address, and from the opportunity to show themselves in return, but a person in this case either realizes that it's just a game, or they don't like it and they don't play that way, that's all. I am not interested in the topic of "red flags", I took self-defense courses, and I believe that if to promote in society first of all the ability to protect themselves, the possession of their bodies, knowledge of how to act in a dangerous situation, for all genders, it is much more useful, because in a real attack on the street no one will wave flags in front of it. The world is a dangerous place, it has been and it will be, and that doesn't mean you have to be "afraid", you just have to keep it in mind and take it into account when planning your actions. Sure, someone would probably benefit from knowing these " flags", but there are probably plenty of other avenues for that learning, like articles and movies. Hyping on this, ruining people's game, turning entertainment into mockery is the worst thing that can be thought of on this topic. The consumer can't be "learning material" for someone else, besides, it destroys the value of the game as a work of art, spoils the story.

By the way, I finally sought out and watched the UA dock scene and UGH. Awful. Even if there was absolutely nothing I found fault in the rest of the UA path, that alone would be enough for me to make sure he ascends. He just looks so broken and humiliated.

I just thought of something else. If AA's goal is to control Tav, why doesn't he offer to turn ANY PC after ascension, not just a partnered Tav? After all, he might assume you helped him because you wanted some of that power for yourself. But as others have pointed out, if you ascend him and aren't partnered with him, you don't get to see any of his "abusive" behaviors; just that he's more confident and a bit more arrogant than before. Which goes to show, those folks who think AA fans are playing wrong and should face the consequences of their actions aren't actually mad that you ascended him. They're mad that you ascended him and you're still in love with him. That's what they think you should be punished for. Whether the game agrees or not is still up for debate...

I love the way he says that bit, the pleasant smile when he says, "It's going to take awhile to become acquainted with my new self." There's no frustration or impatience or even a sinister tone. He sounds so confident and pleasant.

And yes to everything else you wrote as well. I do like that he gets a few cute "old Astarion" lines after ascension. Like the joke he makes if you hire the drow twins at the brothel. I think with time, he'll be able to reconcile the two halves of his personality.

Echo The myth of Echo and Narcissus from Ovid's Metamorphoses, I really love that subject in art.. Waterhouse, Poussin, Caravaggio.
Well, to admire someone could mean, you wish to be some part of him or his character traits or to just think about how would it be to be like him - well just in fantasy, maybe some kind of this? Sometimes we like to see some character traits of others in ourselves and sometimes we like to see our character traits in others ... or beauty, skills, etc. everyone can be a bit self centered. I like playing two contrasting characters (Astarion vs Tav): selfish, evil, extroverted, experienced, strong vs. empathetic, good, introverted, shy, inexperienced, weak - like enemies to lovers. They complement each other completely like a balance.

That's exactly how I played my Tav. Not weak, but kindhearted, a little annoyed by Astarion's impatience and snide comments, but finds something oddly charming about them. I'm not a big fan of romance stories in general. They each have something to learn from each other.

ETA: I have a good book recommendation for anyone who likes the idea of a more altruistic Tav paired with a cheeky, unapologetic Astarion. It's a bit older so you may have trouble getting your hands on a copy, but it's a YA novel called Companions of the Night by Vivian Vande Velde. It's not a sweeping epic fantasy romance (the whole thing takes place in a small town in upstate New York over the course of a couple of days) but it's about a young woman who saves a young man from a group of people who claims he's a vampire, only to find out he actually is one. Probably one of my favorite books since I was a preteen and exactly the dynamic I pictured between my Tav and Astarion.

Yes, exactly this. He's in full on copium and selling bs to Tav how he's healed overnight so Tav will stay with him.


Every time I hear arguments about the cycle of abuse I just roll my eyes. It's repeated ad nauseam. The same slogans everywhere. In case you're not familiar with my compilation of them (with 1 new line I couldn't add because of these forums not allowing edits of old posts):



He's still broken in the epilogue. He's smiling but you can see how insecure and scared he is that you'll dump him. He's also acting like the graveyard scene never happened. And then in the epilogue party he's behaving very theatrical, which he does when he masks his real feelings.

I remember seeing your list. It's so on point. All I can think when I see those arguments is, just let me have my manic pixelated dream vampire. No one's stopping you from having yours.

I love you, Ametris. You always manage to make me laugh. All you have to do is pull out the holy words, your humour and your picture and I laugh at it. Thank you <3