Originally Posted by starryophonic
By the way, I finally sought out and watched the UA dock scene and UGH. Awful. Even if there was absolutely nothing I found fault in the rest of the UA path, that alone would be enough for me to make sure he ascends. He just looks so broken and humiliated.

Totally agree. I watched this after reading the diary entry, "Astarion's fate is sealed. He will remain a spawn forever." I lost all desire to be some kind of "good hero" after that one video. Worse "good" and more "motivation to evil" for me has never happened in any game yet. It took a while to get back no longer the same, but at least more or less normal attitude to other companions who mocked his pain. But still they remained to me not friends, but just fellow travelers, with whom a common misfortune had temporarily brought them together by chance. I'd give a lot to get a long, long scene in the castle with Astarion instead of a party in the epilogue with everyone, understandably only in dreams. To be in the shoes of this Tav, who went boozing in a tavern while a broken and humiliated Astarion I don't know how, I don't know where, heals his wounds, is a hundred times more painful to me than any insulting kisses. I'd rather let this whole city burn.

Originally Posted by Zayir
Echo biggrin The myth of Echo and Narcissus from Ovid's Metamorphoses, I really love that subject in art.. Waterhouse, Poussin, Caravaggio.
Well, to admire someone could mean, you wish to be some part of him or his character traits or to just think about how would it be to be like him - well just in fantasy, maybe some kind of this? Sometimes we like to see some character traits of others in ourselves and sometimes we like to see our character traits in others ... or beauty, skills, etc. everyone can be a bit self centered. I like playing two contrasting characters (Astarion vs Tav): selfish, evil, extroverted, experienced, strong vs. empathetic, good, introverted, shy, inexperienced, weak - like enemies to lovers. They complement each other completely like a balance.

My Tav - Echo. smile Nice balance idea. I imagined that my warrior with Aristocrat background must have been told as a child by her parents, swearing when she fought with boys and climbed with them anywhere, against all rules of lady behavior, that "No decent lord will marry you". And here's how it turned out as a result...

Originally Posted by Ametris
Every time I hear arguments about the cycle of abuse I just roll my eyes. It's repeated ad nauseam. The same slogans everywhere. In case you're not familiar with my compilation of them (with 1 new line I couldn't add because of these forums not allowing edits of old posts):

THE HOLY WORDS OF THE UNASCENDED ASTARION CHURCH:

1. Ascended Astarion is Cazador 2.0.
2. You are continuing the cycle of abuse.
3. You failed to save him from himself.
4. He doesn't love Tav.
5. He lost his soul in the ritual / he's not himself.
6. You condone abuse by liking him.
7. He's toxic, I feel for you because you'll likely end up in that kind of relationship in real life.
8. He's trapped forever.
9. You are his Spawn, he is your master, he controls you!
10. AA should be killed.
11. You are delulu if you believe he cares, he's a monster.
12. You are nothing but his dog / slave.
13. If you loved him, you wouldn't choose to ascend him.
14. Astarion has so much content in the game and it's your fault.
15. You requested this / you asked for this.
16. Don't be emotional because you are not human.
17. Alt + F4.
18. "Evil" is "Bad".
19. This is why women should not be allowed to play video games.
20. You denied him healing.
21. You need therapy.
22. AA fans are media illiterate.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Great! Very accurate. I especially like the look on Tav's face. It's perfectly matched!

Point 22 in particular made me bend over in laughter. Hell, they really do even play the way they're told... The propaganda-in-game experiment was a success.

Your Tav is also very calm and wise. Mine would have hit an invisible wall screaming: "Come here, you cowardly face! Now I will wrap your delulu in a cycle of abuse and shove it where the bear is not...'" * Astarion: "My treasure, don't swear like that, please..." "No, I've got someone going to therapy now, if they're still being transported..." Astarion makes a facepalm and tries to lead her away...

Originally Posted by starryophonic
I remember seeing your list. It's so on point. All I can think when I see those arguments is, just let me have my manic pixelated dream vampire. No one's stopping you from having yours.

Yeah, the important thing is that the developers themselves don't ruin the game. This nonsense, in a good way, does not matter. For an opinion to have value, the bearer of the opinion must have at least some authority for the person to whom it is carried, at least some interest or minimal respect. These opinions evoke none of that. And Astarion himself, even though he is a fictional character, becomes close to the player, and his attitude matters. To make scenes where he mocks Tav, contrary to the rest of the story, contrary to his character, just to make the players feel insulted if they, the insolent ones, dared to give a damn about "public opinion" (my god, what nonsense...) is just low. That's not history, that's hysteria.

One life, one love - until the world falls down.