Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion

Well said. It's not even "evil" that's being punished, it's exactly what's being punished for loving Astarion. It's as if whoever is romancing the game is doing everything to prevent us from even touching him. I personally don't care if my Tav/DU is "good", "evil" or gray-brown-purple, I just love Astarion and want to give him everything. I will not allow this world to "fix" him, I will not allow him to be burned and humiliated, I will not allow him to be sent into darkness. You can do any evil deeds you want in the game, without any "punishment", except you get less content as a result. You can do "evil" things only for Astarion's sake, like I did before, little things like killing Gandrel, and a more serious step like Ascension, and in all other cases try to do everything as good as possible, I loaded into this saved game after patch 6, and got a punishment that I didn't have before. I got pissed off, went for "revenge", killed NPCs for nothing, attacked Jaheira, fought guards, generally bloody madness, not even the story. The punishment stayed the same, it didn't get any bigger or smaller. Taking control of the Brain was a very evil thing to do, but how else was there to end such a story? No punishment, rather the opposite, fantasizing about the fact that now, perhaps, Astarion will respect me, stop shoving me away from a kiss and so on. It's ridiculous.



This variant is liked by a very small, but nevertheless appeared after patch 6, category of players. These are those who do not care about the game as an RPG, they create a female Tav to their liking, run naked Tav to the third chapter (well, or run Astarion, a companion can also lead a group on the map and initiate dialogs with the NPS to associate themselves with him, and naked Tav is led around in a collar), ascend Astarion and enjoy kisses. And to them, Tav's face makes sense. I really don't think they brought Larian that much profit, after all, they are people with very "unusual" desires.


Astarion could have read it in Veliot's scrolls among other vampire rituals. The Necromancy of Thay could also describe it (the Ascension ritual is described in the book, Astarion says so).


I would have loved a passionate kiss where Astarion bites Tav. The bitten Tav might raise an eyebrow in surprise, but Astarion turns his eyes sideways upward and whistles "innocently" and playfully, like, I had nothing to do with it. Tav smiles, takes a step towards him, suddenly hugs him tightly and kisses him passionately. Astarion is a little surprised, but afterward also hugs her closely, and they kiss long and passionately. Or Astarion could lick the blood off Tav's lips and with a greedy, eager tug pull her to him and kiss her afterward.


+100!

That's another reason why these kisses ruin the scripts.



If Tav misses turning night and goes straight to the ending - there's a mortal ending where Tav offers to turn themselves.
Impossible development, to want to be eternally bound, after kissing with a frightened, disgruntled face.

However like all positive responses, though. Literally forced to be a victim in this game. I have a few refusals and break up before the ending, I don't choosing them specifically playing ally and lover. Whoever did this face Tav just wants that instead of - 6 positive responses in the AA ending, we choose 1 - breakup since it's the only logical option when someone is afraid of intimate things. (you can see the choice of the majority, since so many lines of discontent - one).

That it's a total double standard and bias. Can I have a man in this game for the path of evil, where any character I create won't be locked in a persona by a silly victim during a kiss, who themselves are approached with one line of response for the game?
An evil character for romance and the path of evil Woman I see, Minthara

I would like the option to turn, yet I would like him to offer it. I just don't want to demand it, without him offering. Otherwise, I would be happily his consort.

My quibble with this theory is that if this is suppoed to be true, the player is never given an opportunity to learn what this is. This is the sort of thing where a player should have full understanding of what's happening so they can actally know what they're getting into and can react and roleplay properly. It's like the theory of the Emperor being the one who infected us with the tadpoles. If that's true then weas players are never able to confront him about that and react to it, when we really should be able to and when that should be a major reveal in the story.

As for what other people are saying about why people think Ascended Astarion is evil, it's mainly extrapolating from what's been set up prior. Before ascending, Astarion has openly admitted that he thinks having power would give him the right to do whatever he wants to whoever he wants. He thinks that Cazador's only mistake was that he abused him (Cazador) specifically, not that he was abusive in general. He's saying that if he hadn't been on the recieving end, if he'd known Cazador as an equal and not a Spawn, he would have found Cazador's behaviour perfectly fine. And now that person, who has not had those beliefs meaningfully challenged has been given a whole lot of power and the only person who he potentially might listen to is magically bound to him. Astarion telegraphs that even if Tav isn't going to be the target of his abuse, he's going to be cruel and abusive because he thinks having power gives him that right. We consistently see that he's cruel and sadistic, he enjoys hurting people and believes power is the only thing that matters. Why wouldn't people think he's evil? He might not want to rule the world, but evil doesn't have to just be that.

Yeah, I'm curious too. Astarion definitely gives one drop of his blood to Tav, that's why they don't burn in the sun after the final battle. But how could he really know such details?
Tav's turning is different from how Astarion describes his turning - he was in pain, he was buried.
Tav doesn't remember, which is certainly not the pain and Tav wasn't buried, they wakes up in the same place.
The difference is that in the book, the bride needs to be given more blood than a drop.
The Bride of Theory's hallmark - no burying, no pain and pleasure.

The concept as a whole belongs to Wizards of the Coast.
Larian probably couldn't buy the rights to it, but could make something of their own, homebrew similar to it. Otherwise, I don't see why there's such a difference in Tav turn and what Astarion says about his turning.

Ascension? Astarion knew that Tav wouldn't pain, would pleasure and not have to bury them, well nah.
For example why “drinking each other” could also be a reference to Kin Nectar.
As a DM Larian doesn't explain much.

@starry - You can read up on the bride ritual if you like here: https://voltor.narod.ru/vr/vr01_11.htm


That is Van Richten's Guide to Vampires, which has the Bride information there unless you are going to attempt to find the book that is no longer published. I do have the book myself but I have had it for a very long time.

Even though these discussions are wonderful, let's try to work it back into the topic of the suggestion & feedback thread if we can, please! We can always start a discussion thread under story & discussion if you want to talk about it more.

Thanks!

Correct. Astarion IS "evil". Since the very first meeting in act 1. Point. He has dark triad traits - Machiavellianism & narcissism - except psychopathy. So this man is capable of feeling empathy and some complex emotions in some situations (The text and Neil are sending this, also his author), but in my own opinion very little (act 1 - 3). Overall he is a complex character. Character traits (like narcissism -including recuded empathy-, sadism) are not curable. So yes, of course also AA still has these character traits and is "evil", as Astarion was "evil". BUT. You haven't played the romance. Astarion is treating his partner more or less well ( as much as a selfish man is capable of, hey it's just a game) and doesn't want to lose his partner. So, I am sure noone here is saying, Astarion is a "good" character in general, but he is not treating his partner like a piece of s***. So I am guessing you are missunderstanding some things here. There is no point in discussing again, whether Astarion in general is "evil" or not. You are right, he is behaving evil on certain levels, especially outside the romance toward other NPCs and creatures. Nevertheless he has a complex character. And people are choosing Astarion, BECAUSE he is how he is.

So this:
I still support to change Tav's rejection (this nonsensical "meh meh I fuc*ing hate to kiss my beloved partner") and sad facial expressions during the new patch 6 "kisses" into consensual expressions. Because my Tav LOVES his choosen partner. Especially in those "special" kisses with Astarion my Tav would have melted and been aroused, and would have not looked like being a victim of a squid mass rape.


Well said!

I liked your phrase "locked in a persona by a silly victim" - it describes my feelings during this game very well. The feeling of being " locked in" was there before - during the dialog after the Ascension and especially during Astarion's "mind reading" - "You degrade yourself by staying with him, and you like to degrade yourself". I intentionally put quotation marks on "mind-reading" because during the game it feels like someone else, maybe because of the railgun narrative with no choices, is trying to put their brand on him and on you in this way. If you don't understand the "intent" and choose, "No", (no, you know it's not), then... the game thinks I want to break up with Astarion. Either - " degrade yourself" or replay and do as commanded. Like "good girls" are supposed to do. The "submission" experiment creates a kind of funny inverted reality in which true submission manifests itself in the fact that the player must ah, feel like a loser, change their mind, reboot, read game magazines, where they tell this player, rather unconvincingly, why one ending is "good" and the other ending is "bad" and what is the "vision of the authors" (who did not write the character). The game "anarchist-dissident" who has the nerve to think with their own head should kneel down and, at least in the eyes of the "game community" look like a submissive who directly adores this kneeling process and chooses the Ascension option for the sake of satisfying their sexual cravings. The interesting side effect of pushing the boundaries of the player's possible predilections (if I had a free choice from the start to kneel or not, I wouldn't have done it, and I certainly wouldn't have wanted to do it, but now with the mod freeing me from the victim face, it's downright buzzing, especially somewhere downtown, I realize it looks like provocative behavior by a high school student and not serious, but fun) was hardly intended, but rather to make the player want to choose to break up.

Perhaps the activation of kisses immediately after the ritual is not a mistake, but a calculation that the player, without going further, will be stunned by it, will write somewhere in Steam: "Oh, what is it with Astarion?", adherents of UA will quickly run, "explain" that "Astarion went crazy because of the ritual", the player will believe, and join their ranks. Friends, never believe information obtained from one source, without evidence, if the information is important to you, always look at different sources, look for unofficial, independent sources of information, the fact that the world has come to the point that this rule must now be applied to entertainment game content, of course, does not honor the game companies...

Your Tav "wants" you to make the "right" choice, yes, somehow. The players would like to have the original author of the character (which is no longer possible) work on their romance, or a professional screenwriter, or at least someone unbiased and neutral. So that Astarion wouldn't be used as a tool to impose their own views, setting Tav's emotions when kissing as "scared, sad and pained".

I think Minthara could have faced a similar fate after the Astarion players would have been outraged, shamed and eaten by the trolls, left the game (as perhaps the one who set such emotions to the victim-Tav during the kiss would have wanted), then it would have been safe to go after her as well. The good thing is that apparently Larian management didn't want to do that, and removed the offensive dialog where Minthara throws the redeemed DU, though the claim that the scene filmed for that was filmed unintentionally, hmmm, okay, removed it. Please remove the insults from our game too. Realistically, it's not good to leave the game in a form where those players who want to help newcomers to the game will have to constantly write something like, "Warning! It is not recommended to play the game without mods, in case you make the game choice " Ascend Astarion ", being in a romance with him! Download mods from the links..." It's like the inscription about the harm of smoking on cigarette packs, only cigarette manufacturers can not make them harmless to health, and they are obliged to write a warning, but, the game, as I think, it is quite possible to make without harm to the mental health of the player. There are many games that prove that it is elementary to do it.


Yes, that would be wonderful and very realistic, like a true love story.


Now where in the scene of the night after the Ascension is there a single option to react and play the role properly? For those who want to confront him, there are plenty of options (even "No" turns out to be not the beginning of a conversation or some discussion, as the player might think at first, but a concrete breakdown of the relationship). I can't show Astarion that I'm not " degrading myself by staying with him", I'm not roleplaying, I can only headcanon and choose the only rail option.


Exactly. I love him for who he is. I would burn the world to the ground for him, so my character is evil too, just was mistaken in thinking otherwise, and is revealed as an evil character towards the world in her love for Astarion. You could probably make a whole collection of books and movies about evil couples, it happens that the male character is a real psychopathic maniac ( more evil than Astarion), yet he loves the only person - his beloved and puts her apart from the rest of the world, he hates the world, but she is apart, she is the only one who has value. Astarion does nothing cruel to the other characters in the game, no one but Tav, all words are just that, words and plans in words. Evil should be shown realistically, not through pointless, plot-unrelated, traumatizing "kissing" content.

Now I realize that the topic of sex in games should actually be smaller. Not everyone is careful enough to handle it.

Look at what's going on. We have romance, kissing, intmeme stuff.
Showing this is good and right - happy kisses in the way of good, and this is Tav's pain and suffering, lust, no-love, the knees of evil. That's not what romance is in the game for.
Or it's a story about abuse, oh thank you. Can I have one romance with an evil man in this game?
Who doesn't “go crazy” with the Disney-book-of-evil – like, if he's not made a “better person”.

Who write like that they don't care at all about the character of Astarion, he shows the “dark sides of humanity” the balance between darkness and fun, as the author says.
Whoever made Tav face victim in patch 6 - spit the same way, there is no balance.
Whoever did the tiny bat in patch 5 - cared about that.

Evil players want to conquer cities and enjoy power.

I can understand if we had a quest, if we complete it with a certain outcome - it will affect something sexual in the character. If we need to do it in more depth than Tav's choice. Which were also given on release gently, roughly.
Or so using kinks to describe something boo-woo evil, see, wrong one, morality on February 14 using such a deep psychological theme to real people. Grabbing the trigger zone of the neck at random (e.g.) in kissing still with the face of the victim - look, evil = suffering. “This is the version” where you have to suffer.
Is that a church? The cult of a healthy relationship with a vampire
Is that what evil players need? Oh yeah, that's exactly what I created my Tav for, to make her a abusive victim who can't press break up, instead coming up for a kiss. Just one version, have a nice Valentine's Day.

When people ask me if there's an evil romance with a man in this game so that it's not so lonely in the path of evil, I'll say no. If the situation doesn't change in the next few patches.
There is romance with Minthara, the dark elf.
There is a tug of war - romance and moralizing about what is right with a male vampire

Definitely been loving the thread Marielle started over on that board: https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=942614&#Post942614


You know, I think I've done the turning scene about four times now, and each time I try to do the insight check, simply because I think it's what Lethe would do. Well, she'd rather ask him, "Why do you want me to kneel? What's going to happen?" but in lieu of being given that option, she'll at least try to read his mind. And you know, I've failed the check every. Single. Time. So canonically, my Tav has no idea that Astarion thinks that of her, but I think if she did, she would interpret it less as him thinking less of her, and more of him thinking less of himself. She would tell him, "I'm with you because I love you. Not because I pity you or want anything from you. I'm yours, and I'm happy to be." And hell, he's got the parasite too. Why doesn't he also read her mind and figure out if she's really committed to this? So it's yet another baffling choice that doesn't make sense and gives the player no option to adequately respond. I don't see the point of it.



The evil thing is a debate we could have for ages. I think "evil" is a subjective term, but as I've mentioned before, I get so annoyed by refrains that he's not evil deep down, and that, he is in fact, fixable. Part of me thinks that some of the folks who romance him and also insist he's not actually evil are just hoping to romance Wyll in Astarion's body. I know that's a pretty harsh conclusion, but it annoys me so much when this imaginary "goodness" he supposedly possesses, despite all evidence to the contrary, is used as an excuse to bash on people who go the AA route, and getting back to the topic of this thread, it feels like that line of thinking has been allowed to drive these updates to the AA path.

This seems to be a common misunderstading. Literally haven't seen any AA romance players saying he is a good character and not evil. Granted I haven't read every single post, but many of them.


My exact feelings on the insight-check during the turning as well. I don't see it as Astarion finding fault in Tav, but Astarion scared Tav will find fault with him and leave him. I realize it is very vauge, but in context with the rest of the romance it fits for me. Well, if you subtract the invisible hand steering all our Tavs into Abuse-corner during the last patch. We just want to have a ROMANCE like we have been promised in-game by Astarion with ROMANTIC (spicy) kisses.

Before Patch 6 I was all "aww, they are so cute." when Astarion and Tav kissed, now it's the biggest turn-off in the game, feels like a creepy uncle is hovering over my shoulder telling me how to play with my characters the "proper" way. "See, how scared she is. This is how it should be."

Yeah, agreed. I think a lot of UA fans or folks who just don't understand the AA route assume that we believe ascending will "fix" him. I put a joke on my Instagram stories the night I did the ritual with a screenshot and some comment like, "Everyone else: I can fix him. Me: Nah. I can make him worse." I had no illusions that ascension would cure him of any of his negative traits, and nor did my Tav. I don't think he's warm and fuzzy deep down. I think in any timeline, in any circumstance, he'll be as selfish and evil as he's allowed to be.

A balance between darkness and fun, yes... Astarion should have made a lovely, perfect evil couple, as well as successfully and enjoyably "spoiling the good ones". "The good ones" also want to be spoiled with pleasure, not through "evil frustration". Becoming "evil" by realizing what the world around you is can also be a very interesting variant of roleplay, when it happens through the story, rather than through the malice of the player themselves, who is being imposed with the image of a victim and trying to force a "good" decision in such a way that, the "good" in this game doesn't resonate within them with anything but pure concentrated hatred. And Astarion at the party is beautiful, both the bat and the way he admires himself in the mirror, combing his hair, doing the knife trick, tasting alcohol, tossing goblets... I don't want to go talk to the others, I just want to "spy" on him the whole party.


Yes, yes, about the parasite, opening consciousness is the first thing I want to do in this scene, it's the only thing I want to do, and the impossibility of it just dumbfounded me the first time. I did it in the second chapter, in the confession scene, I generally think it's the best way to confess feelings, since there is such a way - Astarion may not believe the words, but an open mind can't lie. In general, I'd like to open my mind with him regularly, several times a day, so that he's less paranoid with his mistrust. By the way, the vampire and his bride would be able to transmit thoughts to each other and feel each other's strong emotions without any larvae. But in this scene for some reason we can't do what we did in chapter 2, what we did with other companions too, periodically in the story. This opportunity is just missing so we don't break the "author's narrative" with our roleplay. Take someone, tie them up, gag them, and ask them, "Do you enjoy degrading yourself?" "Mm-hmm..." "Okay, silence is a sign of consent."


Yes, "evil" is very subjective, at first I was very happy that there are no alignments in the game, I thought it promised a departure from the usual system of "good/evil". But here is not that departure, here is a complete "coming", no game with a classical system of alignments has not had such "moral lessons". And as much as I myself would like to constantly move away from alignments, the habit of constantly using the terms good/evil, lawful/chaotic, which has been ingrained through DnD and RPGs, is ineradicable. "Friends, let's throw off the shackles of alignment and play the way we want, in DnD 5th edition we can do without it!" - "Oh, you sound like a typical chaotic!"

I agree about the imaginary kindness. Really, why not romance Will (and then there's Gale, who's also quite a handy guy)? But it seems to be not only about Astarion's looks, but also about the fantasy of "fixing the bad guy", the desire to dominate, to bend someone to your liking, to make them comfortable, "homeboy vampire". Well, someone genuinely believes that Astarion is not evil but wounded, that he doesn't want to kill the spawns, that he needs to show the good in the world, etc., let them, everyone has their own headcanon. As I see it, the ones who get the most angry are the ones who understand everything perfectly well, and... the character expresses himself not only in the game. "Fix" Astarion - "fix" someone else too, someone else doesn't have a larva in their head, has their lines, there are no writers to help fix them - the butthurt begins. Insulting kisses for those who cause butthurt by their existence - full pants happiness. Yes, it is this way of thinking that gave us such a "gift" for Valentine's Day. Note, it's not like they're going to edit their disgusting "burning ending" to make the " good" version more appealing, kinda going to change the offensive companion lines (there are recorded possible future lines), but even give those UA fans who love Astarion after all, and not just relish the opportunity to suppress him, at least some poor sun protection ring (it's not such a rare artifact on Faerûn in DnD, such rings are often used by drow on the surface to protect their light-sensitive eyes from the sun), I'm not even talking about healing - it's not going to happen. And we had it too good before, the "path of evil" with Astarion is immeasurably more attractive than the "path of good". Once on your knees - and everything is great, the lines are more interesting, the animations are more charming, the ending is happy. Decided to "correct" it.

I tried to put clown makeup on myself to somehow interrupt the "How scared and suffering she is" narrative. It was crazy... But the deliriousness of the situation became even more delirious.


The main thing is that he feels so good. There is no argument that Astarion suffers by being "uncorrected" or is tormented by having undergone the ritual. He's not worse off, he only feels better and breathes more freely, worse off to those around him. It is their problems. I wish I could heal his self-esteem, that he would accept himself, with all his darkness, with all his character traits. But wounds like his can't go away in a moment, even if that moment gave him strength and true freedom. It takes time.

Correct, and that is a major failing throughout the game and why it's gone down as the most disappointing game I've ever played. (not the worst, specifically the most disappointing). Though frankly even if we don't get a chance to roleplay our character's reaction to this Bride thing, if that's the intention then the info should be there to be found within the story for the sake of the player's understanding and satisfaction.


Regarding Astarion being good or evil, even from early access my view of him is that he has evil impulses, but that how evil he is is still in flux. I haven't played his story out to the end so maybe it gets revealed that he's always been this way even before turning, but barring that, he's spent 200 years being tortured and not having the capacity to be morally culpable for anything he's done, because he's literally not had the agency to make moral choices. He was magically compelled in a way that he could not resist. The moment we meet him is literally the first time in two centuries he's had any meaningful agency in his existence, after two centuries of physical and mental torture and trauma. I view a lot of his reactions throughout the game as trauma responses, impulses and reactions essentially beaten into him by necessity over the course of his time under Cazador's thumb. So I can't say whether or not they reflect Astarion as his truest self. He has those evil impulses and belief systems as a result of his torture, but now he has agency, he doesn't have to listen to them, they don't have to be what defines him.

From a storytelling perspective, in terms of character arcs and character growth and change, I view ascending Astarion as telling him that the lessons he learned under torture are the way he should live his life. Telling him that his beliefs are just true and putting him in a position where he never has to challenge them. I think most anti-AA players are reacting, fundamentally, to the fundamental story logic of "if a character starts in one place at the beginning of the story and never changes, that's bad for the character." Of course flat character arcs exist but those are typically crafted in a pretty specific way and I'd argue Astarion's potential arcs in the game are crafted as pretty standard for what one would expect in a typical character arc. I can't recall the last time I read a story where a main character didn't learn any lessons, had the worldview they started the story with confirmed as entirely true without any alterations, and that was presented as a good thing. Even if you're dealing with an evil character, the best ones still have arcs where they learn SOMETHING that changes them and empowers them in their evil. I would argue that Ascended Astarion doesn't learn anything or change at all. The choice to do the ritual or not is clearly the big, central choice of his story, the big moment where we see how his journey has effected him. Him doingthe ritual is the choice he would make at the beginning of the game, simple as that. We also have to look at Astarion's story in the context of the whole game, because there is in fact a whole game and other characters around Astarion who face similar situations and arcs, and we see the two possibilities of their arcs presented in a clear positive and negative light. So that's the baggage any given player is coming to the game with. I think you're being pretty ungenerous to those fans who choose the spawn route, writing them off as just wanting to dominate and impose his will. I'm sure if you asked them, plenty of them would say (and I would be in that group if I'd actually made it to that quest) that they chose the Spawn route because to them Ascencion is effectively trapping him in the same post-trauma mindset, that singular power is the only thing that matters and that there's no need for someone to justify themselves once they have it, that equals equate to rivals and threats, and domination is the only path to safety. That's an entirely valid reading of Astarion's whole quest line, just like yours is valid. You're not wrong for your view, but neither is anyone who keeps him a spawn.

I say all of this as someone who agrees the kisses should be changed as they really do not fit where they are and fail to convey what they seem to be intended to convey. The kiss, placed where it is, is dumb and does not belong.

In Original, Astarion can Ascend on his own if he's in a romance with Gale, Gale gets down on one knee on his own, in the same patch 6 makes the proposal.
I don't see a frightened face. It's not right. How to show that this is not the right choice for a player, his love interest should fear him while kissing.
Larian, everyone should be afraid of the Ascended Astarion when he wants a kiss, not to mention the knees of evil.
Saw it as soon as patch 6 came out, now couldn't find a video of the original Asc Astarion for this combination, but Gale can definitely propose to him that way.
Romance + Astarion + Kneel + Ascension = non-love, bad and suffering.
I hope Larian fix that in patch 9.

I see your view GreyGhost and if I hadn't played the AA romance route myself maybe I would have been in agreement with you. Who knows. To be honest I don't really care too much about the other romances to have any opinion on how I would like them to be when I never actually play them.


I view the ascension as freeing Astarion from his lessons letting him live a life without regrets with a Tav he loves forever and who supports him rather than having him scared and alone forever contemplating what could have been.

I do not begrudge anyone their Spawn romance or how they view their game world, all I ask is that anti-AA folks keep from judging and spearheading hate towards us AAmancers (as Ametris put it) with the new kisses as the prime cause. Or just not any hate at all like I have not given any other romancers any hate. That would be nice I think.


Not a bad idea honestly.

@LiryFire I love your post, reading it in my head with a deeply sarcastic voice makes me chuckle.

There could be a textual mention of this in the Veliot scrolls. We read in them about the Perfect Murder ritual that Cazador did with Veliot, so there could also be a mention of this ritual, maybe in passing, without much detail, to leave the player wondering if this is what is meant or not? For example, there could be a story about Donella Zarr having a bride ritual with Veliot, but as one might surmise from one of Veliot's lessons ("Be Alone"), it clearly didn't end well for her. Incidentally, Veliot did not carry the last name Zarr, so that could additionally explain why he ended up on this vampire family's list. Astarion, for his part, will not admit to Tav that he planned the bride ritual, saying that they will become just his spawn, but the player will be able to match what he read in the scroll with the way they were treated (the treatment in the game is not the same as the usual treatment of the spawn, but it fully corresponds to the bride ritual).


It is a very difficult question. The thing is that from the point of view of psychology we cannot in principle imagine what 200 (!) years of torture is like. Examples of PTSD of people who were prisoners of war, survived in concentration camps - if you read the diaries of survivors, you can understand something about PTSD, but 200 years is beyond the limits of human existence. But you can never convince such a person that they "have nothing more to fear". The consciousness of a person who has experienced such a thing will never be colored "white" again. And in the player's place, when we start to perceive the world as "real", remove "fairy-tale perception", and in BG3 is not a "sweet" game universe - such a conviction looks too stupid and cheap. It might work on a person living in an affluent neighborhood where everyone is not afraid of anything, they don't lock their doors at night, and even when someone in a mask with a bat in his hand enters through an unlocked door at night, they won't be afraid, but will offer him tea, redemption and everything will be wonderful and peaceful. Astarion once went against Cazador and saved the boy, made a "moral choice". He got a year of starvation for it, alone, locked in a crypt. Now he has free will, but not quite, there is also Tav - an invincible hero, the authority on everything and everything, from whom the companions can not even leave, because otherwise they are waiting for immediate ceremorphosis. Astarion can't choose exclusively on his own (although he has chosen, he explicitly says how much he needs it before the ritual, he desperately asks for help before the ritual). If "the hero wants a better life for him" (Better? Not for the "hero" to then lose his feelings, experience hunger, not see the sun, and so on), Astarion can't resist it. He can die fighting the "hero", leave the party (to certain death), or... Say "thank you" for "breaking the cycle of abuse". Ascension is not just an evil impulse, it is a rational and logical impulse. To get rid of the torment of the spawn state, to gain enough strength to defend himself in the future, and that really ensures that no one else will be master over him.


It's just that I view Astarion's Ascension not from a narrative perspective, but from a realism perspective. What would have to be done if he and I were actually living in this world. Lessons in Torture talks about making sure it never happens again. That is the most important thing to him, and of course to me. Astarion changes, even his posture and movements change - he becomes more confident, he takes off his masks, he no longer adjusts or lies. Astarion without the ritual, how does he change? All the same theatricality, he only becomes dimmer. To me, Astarion is too important to consider his fate in terms of history. It's different with the other companions. Lae'zel does need the path of Orpheus, Vlaakith used her like all githyanki, she needs to realize that. Shadowheart herself throws away the spear, and she too was deceived in the temple of Shar, but she doesn't need to be "influenced", she just needs to be supported, she's perfectly capable of figuring out her own path. Will doesn't want to decide anything, but there's no "moral choice" with him either, he can just be made to feel good about it - both getting rid of Mizora and saving his daddy, then he does decide what he wants and becomes the Blade of Averno. Gale (in my walkthrough) refused the crown himself, there weren't even any options for lines to convince Gale to take the crown (not that I needed to convince him, but that those options weren't even there, he decided everything on his own). Karlach decides to sacrifice herself and become an illithid, questionable here perhaps, and it might have been better for her to convince her to go to Averno with Will, I don't know, I among others didn't want Orpheus to become an illithid, it was for Lae'zel's sake. This is based on my walkthrough. Astarion is not being used or tricked by anyone when he takes his Ascension. He takes his revenge and takes his own. It's also a new phase to completely destroy his tormentor, take everything from him. Speaking of stories, one can find enough stories and legends about revenge, about how an unbroken man, destroys his enemy and thus destroys his past humiliation as well, becomes stronger and becomes a victor. One of the important character traits of Astarion is that he proved to be unbroken, he just hid his identity under masks. Cazador was unable to suppress his personality, his character, no matter how much he tried to do so. Astarion reveals himself after the Ascension, he acts like the nobleman he once was in the past again. And it looks like the trauma of being humiliated and enslaved for 200 years is starting to heal.

I don't judge those who see ideas of "goodness" in rejecting the ritual. I almost fell for it myself on my first playthrough. I wanted more than anything to heal Astarion, to lift that weight of the past from him, to start a new happy life, to warm him up, to see him walk out onto the balcony in the morning, putting his face to the sun and spreading his arms as he did after the first night with him as he greeted the dawn. To come up quietly behind him and put my arms around him. I didn't realize that he's a vampire, that he wants power, I didn't know that he was a corrupt judge in the past (that story wasn't revealed in the game as a result), that he wants to dominate and rule, that those are his primal desires, that he's a truly evil character.

It's just that I'm too "inquisitive" both to the diary entries and to the nuances of behavior, facial expressions, lines... It's just that on a UA empathy level - it's played out as pain. Like pain and helplessness, including my own helplessness. It's impossible not to suspect and realize a bad outcome, impossible not to go on the inernet and spoiler yourself, what's going to happen next? Because there is no healing. There's disarming. There is an opportunity to "saw off the fangs" of Astarion and make him safe for the world. He was supposed to burn up there on those docks. Larian had that idea at first, but the fans took it too badly and they had to "soften" that original idea. But Astarion is an evil character, and evil is isolation. So he has to burn out and run off alone. Tav is part of the world for which Astarion must be neutralized. I'm not against UA, of course, everything can be corrected with headcanons, I edit my own romance with headcanons. It's just that this "Tav is a narrative tool" thing is unacceptable to me. I'm not an idiot or a meanie who wants to "disarm the abuser" (I emphasize, I'm not talking about the fans, who clearly don't want to behave that way, but about the "narrative tool"), and I don't care what the moral lesson or the authors' intent is in doing so. I'm much closer to the narrative tool of "The Little Mermaid who gave her voice to a witch for a prince" and can't say she doesn't enjoy degrading herself. Especially since it's not really a lie, humiliating myself is much easier for me than humiliating Astarion, the process of "bending at the knee joint" doesn't bother me at all.

But it's a matter of perception, and let everyone have their own story. Trigger kisses aren't going to "teach" anyone. Let's just each play it their own way, how they like it, and how they perceive it.

And there should be no reason why you can not have that Marielle. That is why we ask for it. It is a ROLE PLAYING GAME. The ROMANCE of a power couple is just as valid without someone pushing a headcanon of abuse on us. I do not want someone else's headcanon. I feel that Astarion has also learned that I want him, I love him, I want the power couple ROMANCE and we will burn the world together in our own power couple ways. That should be possible in a role-playing game. That is why I suggest it and give feedback. We don't have issues with Astarion, I am not afraid of him and do not want whomever's headcanon that is put into the game.

Larian needs to fix this.

It is their responsibility.

For everyone to be happy with their own path, their own headcanon. Do not put someone else's headcanon in the game....I do think it was an error. This is not a black/white story, a good vs evil story...It is a role-playing game and all head canons should be valid.

In my game, there was no hostility, no problems with Astarion. I don't like the kisses, I do not like a lot of other people's headcanons. I do not like the dialogue implying I only helped him to "want his body". None of these fit.

He is the Ascendant Vampire (a HOMEBREW). He is not a true vampire. I love the bride story from 2e. My Tav and him were in love prior to the ritual. Do not add things that contradict the game story. Keep him multifaceted and interesting. There are NO other vampires like him. He is unique. He is the reason I bought the game.

But adding the February 16th kisses that are "Fear, Pain, & Sad" is not a good Romantic gift for Valentine's Day. Nor is implying that I only want his body (which was done a long time ago, but we have been asking for it to be fixed for a while). I DO want to be his bride, I would love him to suggest it, not me DEMAND it. The TAV dialogue needs to be given more options (as requested in the other thread) and the TAV faces of "fear, pain, & sad" are NOT what we wanted. Please hear us and consider that these options have stopped many people from playing the game and doubting whether or not you can be trusted for your next endeavors.

Pleases fix them Larian. It is NOT too much to ask, since you changed them AFTER release and we never asked for these changes. This story is not set in stone, it is not a novel. It is a role-playing game and that should always be considered. Also: CONSENT AND TRUST is what Astarion always wanted. Why can we not want the same?

Not to mention the extreme bullying that we have endured everywhere just for liking the character. Just do not leave it like this, please. We are asking. Please do not destroy the player's agency of being able to role-play the game we want for our own personal headcanons.

How long have I been away, I'm finally here. I watched Hannibal for the first time. It's a great show, my favorite now. I'll watch it from time to time.
This is such a wonderful story of Hannibal and Will. And the ending of the third season is great, I'm sure they're doing well. Mads and Hugh's performance is great. Let's go back to Baldurs Gate.
I agree with all of you. We don't need someone else's headcannon. Everyone has their own game, I don't need to shove some kind of morality in my face. In a role-playing game, I want to fully enjoy the possibilities. I love such ambiguous, dark, crazy relationships, like in the same Hannibal.
And everything was going well until our character was suddenly forced, namely forced to be afraid and resist.
I've seen the mod for happy faces. That's good, but I don't use mods. I want these unfortunate faces to be officially fixe.
Even with those terrible kisses, I will continue to choose ascension because it is the best thing for Astarion, in my opinion, in my playthrough, always. But it will be better and more pleasant, when the faces will be corrected.

I keep hoping that with the new big update everything will be fixed.
What can I say, everything has already been said, and by me too, more than once.

Keep our fingers crossed.