Originally Posted by Metarra
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Honestly, and we can move this discussion over to Marielle's thread in Story Discussion is we need to, but the fact that UA will be angry if you killed Cazador without him, saying you made a decision for him, AND the fact that if you break up with him after rejecting ascension he tells you he gave that up for you, tells me all I need to know. Astarion wants to ascend. Making him reject it isn't "fixing him;" it's just taking away his access to a fundamental part of himself, and that might be scary to admit because that part of him is pretty sinister.

I mean everyone has the right to play the way they want but to me, not allowing him to ascend AND staying in a relationship with him after is basically the equivalent of saying, "You know that thing you said you wanted more than anything, multiple times? And you know how I said I'd help you get it? Well, it turns out I was only saying that because I wanted you to keep smooching me, and now I'm not only NOT going to help you, but I'm also going to shame you for wanting it and do everything I can to get you to stay with me despite the fact that I essentially strung you along because I know what you want better than you do somehow." It's a video game, not real life, but if I were really Tav, I would feel like I should either help him ascend, or stay the hell out of his way. It's not like he hasn't made his wishes clear.
This quote is from the "Patch 6 destroyed Astarion agency" topic in the suggestions forum, since we were getting off topic, despite it still being a massive thread. I think such a large thread highlights how Astarion generates more passionate fans than any of the companions, although this statement may come from place a bias.

My argument from that thread is from the AA fans vs spawn fans confrontation that happens (I'm both a spawn fan and AA fan) when spawn fans think people shouldn't like AA because he is evil and a completely different person from spawn Astarion (aka UA - Unascended Astarion). I mentioned how I believe AA is more like UA than people realize. Astarion has always had a cruel streak and a capacity for great evil. Throughout acts 1 and 2, and even some things in act 3, he approves of indiscriminate cruelty and killing that even Minthara disapproves of when she asks you why you attacked the grove. This darkness doesn't just go away because Cazador dies and he realizes he loves you.

AA is 100% raw Astarion. AA is UA but without breaks, without an act, and without a filter. I used to think that him becoming a full vampire changed him a lot. That perhaps the ritual destroyed part of him. But I'm starting to wonder if AA is just him shedding the act of compassion and caring. UA even after Cazador still has an act. He still tailors his dialogue and actions to be acceptable to people, he's just way better at it now than when he started in act 1. He loves Tav and still has insecurity and thinks he needs to be on his best behavior to not lose them. AA has the audacity (and ability) to make sure they never leave him.

I think Astarion truly does love and care about his romantic partner. He also cares about himself. He cares about things that are related to him. Such as when he shows concern for Yenna, he reveals it's because "children have a habit of disappearing" which goes directly back to his role in the Gur children abduction.. so yes, that makes Yenna's situation mean something to him. I believe Astarion only cares about himself and his romantic partner, even when he stays spawn. We can add a third thing he cares about which is situations that are related to him. Astarion has always been selfish, open to cruelty, and has had a sharp tongue when you make him angry. And surprise, surprise... AA also has a sharp tongue when you make him angry!

I think people who hate AA and love UA are a bit hypocritical, since they both have similar behavior. UA seems to get a pass from people who identify with his trauma (and put blinders on for the rest of his character that might be "problematic" to them) and are still fooled by his act. AA sheds his trauma and the act, and shows who he really is. Someone else brought up (on the BG3OnlyFangs subreddit) how preferring Astarion with his traumatic baggage could be a disservice to him. Like if a friend preferred when you were a softer person when dealing with a traumatic situation, rather than when you're a more assertive person after having healed from the trauma.

Thanks for beating me to reviving the discussion over here! I was horking down my lunch XD

No but for real, I agree 100%. I hate this idea that the challenge with Astarion is you have to "fix" him, and if you prefer AA or even like AA, then you're the one with psychological issues. But the idea that you have to, or can fix someone, can lead to super problematic relationships and psychological issues in real life too. It doesn't actually work in real life; it just leads to codependent and abusive relationships. It's fine for people to prefer the UA path, just don't pretend like in an equivalent real-life experience, AA romancers would be any more damaged than UA romancers.

I get annoyed with the posts and memes that suggest that deep down, he's a little cinnamon roll for anyone other than a romanced Tav (which he can be both as an Ascendent and as a Spawn) and all you have to do is shame that side out of him. He's a bad person. He likes doing bad things. IRL, if I'm attracted to a morally reprehensible person who quite clearly doesn't want to change (and they shouldn't change just for me), then I'm going to just not be with them.

Anyway I've been thinking about this meme a lot so I made this.

[Linked Image from i.imgflip.com]