... if you deny him Ascension only to keep Astarion "comfortable", dependent, not doing and saying things you don't want to hear, then this is the real abuse, and with such attitude of the player to the character, his bitter ending should not cause any particularly violent reaction.
I think that is such an interesting point and well worth discussing. It is a pity that the patch 6 kisses have muddied the water since the OP was made, with Larian apparently (only they know what they intended), trying to push the narrative that A.A. is abusive and that Tav is now his victim, trapped in a relationship with someone they fear.
If that narrative was cannon, that would make romancing either version of Astarion so depressing, because it would seem to me that you have two choices:
Astarion gains power and then abuses the Player Character or The Player Character retains power by manipulating Astarion into giving up on his dreams of living a better life.
If you accept that A.A. is abusive (I don't btw), then it is either going to be Astarion or the Player Character holding all the power over their partner. There would be no path available for this relationship to be balanced and healthy.
I'm sure that most people who chose U.A. would not envisage themselves being abusive towards him, but as it stands they do hold all the power. U.A. has to look forward to a future where he will be without Tav very soon, and where he will be hunted and probably meet a violent death, unless he can find himself another protector. So, back to selling his body to survive seems a strong possibility for him. Does the fact that Tav won't be around to see it make it ok? I don't think so. Even though the scene where he burns in the sun has been softened, denying Astarion ascension isn't really a happy ending for him, even though the game seems to suggest it is.
Originally Posted by starryophonic
I hate this idea that the challenge with Astarion is you have to "fix" him, and if you prefer AA or even like AA, then you're the one with psychological issues. But the idea that you have to, or can fix someone, can lead to super problematic relationships and psychological issues in real life too.
Good point, one of the most destructive things in a RL relationship is when one partner tries to prevent the other from gaining independence. I used to volunteer in an Adult Literacy programme and the number of partners who started throwing up obstacles when their partner started making progress was scary. It is all about power in the relationship and retaining it. Despite often complaining about the burden of having to do all the form filling and letter writing, these people realised if their partner learned to read they wouldn't be needed and their partner wouldn't have to put up with behaviour they didn't like, they would be free.
So yes, the idea that the player should 'fix' Astarion is something I strongly dislike. Though if anybody wants to play that route, well it's all fiction and we all have different interpretations of the story, so I'm not going to suggest they are playing it wrong or that they have issues, after all this is an RPG and Astarion is a fictional character, he can't be hurt, what ever the player does. I do find the shift in the power between him and the Player Character if he ascends very interesting. I think maybe a lot of people who prefer U.A. don't consider the power dynamics in the relationship because the player having all the power is the status quo.
Originally Posted by Zayir
The only psychological issue is Astarion himself, and compared to real life, he is a case for prison with life-term sentence. He should never have the chance to be released again... The closest thing to Astarion in real life could be a sociopath, but they feel no empathy or guilt consciousness.
Hmm, I personally wouldn't be so harsh on him, as in real life my Tavs would probably be sharing his cell! Faerun is a violent place and I've cut a bloody swathe through it on every play through. In the story-world, violence very often is the answer. It's hard to put people from a medieval world, even a fantasy one, into a modern context. We are talking about a much more violent society where for example, even a minor act of theft would lead to the loss of a hand if found guilty.
I'm not saying Astarion is a nice wholesome person, because he clearly isn't but it is very interesting to see the difference in his attitude towards the player character when he is being romanced as opposed to when they are friends. It is very clear that romanced Astarion cares deeply about the Player Character, regardless of whether he ascends. His demeanour changes on ascension but Tav is still very important to him.
I love the fact that his character is so deep and complex and that people have so many different reactions to him and his story, everything from killing him on sight to unconditional acceptance. He is so well written, it's a joy to find a character like this.
