Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

I haven't made it through the whole talk yet, so my internal questons might be answered by the rest. I, too, thought the described portion of the act 2 scene was handled well and a brave addition. What I find curious about both of the act 2 scenes though is that while the "bad" outcomes - the ones that lead to break-up one way or another - are treated with some depth, the one way through which you can progress the romance is incredibly shallow.

The only way you can keep the romance status is to tell Astarion that you care about him without any reservations. Especially in the Post-Araj scene this is jarring, since in this version his confession that he only used you, comes without remorse, worse he is making fun of you for having been so easy. If you keep the whole "circle of abuse" narrative in mind, this would have been the perfect moment to show how his exploitative behaviour while understandable, is also harmful and very much not ok. Yet the PC is not allowed to have conflicting feelings, to be torn between being in love with Astarion but also feeling hurt by him, to maybe even feel disgusted by themselves for involuntarily having added to Astarion's discomfort.

To write about relationships, especially difficult ones, you have to consider both participants and with the exception of Durge maybe, Astarion's romance does a horrible job envisioning the PC and the PC's feelings.

+1
Exactly this thought I had, when I was looking up the possible answers. Astarion is really selfish and mean, laughing about Tav.. but no possibiliy to react on this. I really don't see Astarion as an angel in his act 2 scenes, he cares for himself, not for Tav (or because of the lack of good answers.) And there is no way of telling him. Tav's possible feelings were not taken into account, and that happens often.

This is a great point. The ability to forgive him while still expressing that he hurt you would be a great opportunity for to further a complex romance.

I think this issue is one that's recurring throughout the game at various points and isn't unique to this romance. I find that pretty consistently, the game doesn't approach Tav as though thy are a character with an internal life beyond the most shallow surface level. I theorise that Larian's philosophy overall with his game is rather Tav and to a large extent Durge are both simply vessels for the player to interact with the game world. Stuff happens around and to them and they are the method of we the player reacting to them and seeing what happens as a result.

+1000

If this (to show abuse) was their real intention with patch 6 kisses, then just wow, it would be one of the greatest failure in gaming history. These scenes (psychological experiments?) harmed a lot of people. The player sees an abusive and deviant sexual scene (with the player character's non-consensual behaviour) in a bubble, without connection to the rest, and beside, that most players of an RPG just want to have fun in a game and don't want to "roleplay" - especially empathetic women - how their character, with which a lot of people also put their shoes into, is non-storywise sexual abused or gaslighted without the possibility for the player/Tav, to talk about it afterwards = you cannot discuss this subject not even mention it ingame during or after the scene. I wholeheartly agree: "The supposition that an author wants an audience to feel that is frankly really gross. (...) Making the audience learn a lesson IS NOT the place of the writer." (and of a fantasy RPG) and "You can't just throw that stuff in a game without some kind of content warning."
There is still the hope, the intention was another one: To just include some horny fanfiction (BDSM, kneeling), which just went terribly wrong with Tav. Because I wouldn't buy a game either, if the intention is to teach and harm people (adults! and if children would be playing this, gods, how incredible!) for recontextualize their lifes, instead of bringing fun. I don't think fictional movies, books, games can educate people or children to become.. what.. "Morally good", a "Better human", "prepared for reallife" (What is the intention?) with using the methods of let the audience "feel" abuse, that is impossible. Most players, and (and especially) those who choose the ascension, are empathetic and already morally good people in reallife. (Btw. The majority of players are in their 30s). This is going wrong. Rather, some media could have a negative impact on people and children (e.g. propaganda, a lot of depictions of violence, or sexual violence), like e.g. lower inhibitions for some people (depends on their personality). Sad that Larian doesn't comment on this. By the way, I didn't "learn" anything. Except that it was a shot in the foot.


I don't judge on whether this scene is well done or not. Though Astarion or the script is not so my taste here. I myself didn't choose a "mean" answer. But when a game writer writes a scene TO "teach" real people, that's really the wrong approach. The story with the break-up may reflect Astarion's personality or his past, so it's okay, but this scene doesn't "teach" nor "educate" anything. It's a fictional roleplaying game. Empathetic people may feel pity for the fictional characters, and non-empathetic people may see a break-up scene (without feeling being sad themselves, they only see a consequence), but it will and can not affect them or morally bad people in any positive way. They probably won't even "notice" it because they don't (can't) feel empathy. And that cannot be changed. An author or an RPG who wants to "teach", simply says here: Okay, you press answer a or b, you just want to see a sex scene, na na na na na, you won't get it! But that's all. They may reload and choose another answer, but they will not rethink their life. A game is not and cannot be a therapy. (The same, by the way, with Minthara's Durge Break-up scene from the hotfix - it only harmed empathetic players, instead of "educating" something.. eh..really questionable, especially if it's not consistent and storywise)

I know what you mean, though I currently feel like Astarion's romance is one of the "worst offenders" in this regard. I admit, this might me in part because I have just played with Gale as a romanced companion before. So I have the direct comparison to writing which allows me a fair amount of flexibility as well as consistency in portraying positions my character might hold, but also grants me a chance to be vulnerable - and be consoled as a consequence - and maybe most importantly: allows me to get into arguments that can actually get resolved amicably.

With Astarion many dialogue choices that would seem relevant are purely cosmetic. If you progress the romance in the act 2 scene mentioned above, you can choose between hugging him, opening your mind to him and another option which all have the same none-comital reply. You'd assume that if you open your mind, the narration would let you choose what he sees, or at least tell you, as this seems to be a relevant information moving forward. But no, it's pure fluff.

There is also the issue that the two scenes in act 2 have, to me at least, vastly different outcomes: The post-Araj scene is, as Zayir already mentioned, selfish. Astarion is moved that someone is seeing him as more than an object to be used, but he does not feel the need to return the favour. In this scene "this is nice" means "It is nice to be cared for". The post-Yurgir scene starts with Astarion's confession, here he feels bad for having wronged you and expresses his desire to figure out what a real relationship might look like. "This is nice" in this context means the none-physical relationship. Moving forward, both scenes are treated as the same, it does not make a difference which one you got.

Worse yet, while both routes continue with a dry-spell, none-sexual intimacy is never actually explored. Which is a shame really. I think it could have been extremely rewarding if how Astarion approaches the ritual, would change depending on whether he remained largely selfish (Araj-route) or tries to have "something real" with the PC (Yurgir-route).

But that was a long rant, only to say that I for the most part agree with you. XD

I take this confession a little more lightly.
This whole thing started out as a fling. Everybody's trying to seduce Tav in one way or another. Not today, not tomorrow, everyone could grow tentacles. As soon as Ast starts to sense something else, he informs the player that, "here's the thing...(further down the line)".
Without using metagaming or knowing the backstory, most Tavs agreed to his offer of a night with the calculation of "why not or well finally, what, fed you for nothing", not out of deep feelings, no matter how charming he was.
So, the fact that Ast is worried that he's so bad that he decided to seduce you to help him, but realized that you're awesome and fell in love.... well, it's like a teen movie from the '2000s where the prince of the school falls in love with the nerd for fun, but then for real. (Ha-ha, pardon the comparison).

And scolding him for it is questionable, in my opinion. You already forgive him, saying, "I also want to something real.". Saying him, well you are certainly a fruit and hurt me, but I forgive, to someone who has problems with trust and manipulation, well...he can further just not say then truthful, but hurtful things to you, so as not to offend and further pretend that all is well.
But that's my opinion and vision.))))).
But I agree that the scene with Yugir is better than the scene with Araj and less selfish.


I believe that these scenes should both exist. And the scene with Araj should not open up further romance, but only give information about how Astarion sees himself, and the player can help him or validate his vision by ordering a bite. As far as I know, and I wrote about this in another thread, so far, getting the Yugir scene still allows us bite to make the merchant and we get the potion, without any consequences for Astarion's romance. It's a shame.


I like this option )

I wouldn't see expressing hurt at being manipulated as lecturing. I think Tav's dialog option would have to be worded carefully, but in this scene Astarion is basically suggesting you take the romance to the next level and officially become partnered. If I'm partnered with someone, I need to be able to be honest with them. I feel like my Tav would say something like, "I wish you hadn't felt like you had to manipulate me. But thank you for telling me." I don't think she'd be mad or not want to be with him, and I think she'd understand why he did it, but she'd want to make it clear that going forward, those sorts of tactics won't just be unnecessary, but they'd need to be off the table.

To be honest, in this scene I didn't feel any resentment towards Astarion after his confession, I was thinking only about him and what he told me at that moment. About how fragile he really is, and how badly he's hurt... It's really a change in my attitude to the character, a new feeling was woven into my love for him - a desire to cherish him, a desire to treat him with all possible tact and tenderness. And a sense of guilt that I had actually used him for my pleasure before, albeit unwittingly, albeit without knowing it. I had sexualized Astarion quite well in my headcanon before this scene. I pictured him specifically as my lover, assuming that even though there are only two intimate scenes in the game (the after party is just a black screen and sighs, but that's actually an intimate scene too), those scenes are just sort of symbolic of the beginning of a relationship, and in fact Astarion and Tav are actually hooking up in the tent almost every night. And I really wanted to apologize to him for that, for not knowing how he really felt. And maybe make a little joke about how he might not have tried so hard, because I was going to protect him even before the seduction. About Astarion making fun of me for being "easy", it was a little funny to me, because after his line during the first night, about how he longed to possess me, I thought something like, "Wow! I didn't expect you to be so easy!" I thought he'd be such an untouchable, evil, and would reject me when it came time to choose a mate at the party (I read that everyone chooses a mate at the party, and Astarion could reject the player), think I wasn't evil enough for him (in BG2, evil companions could make fun of good Tav, or even betray them). And he's suddenly like, "I wish to possess!" before any party...

In general, the "open your mind" option is good because it allows you to imagine expressing your own feelings rather than prescribed lines. "You're full of surprises!" - this surprise of Astarion's is taken as if he saw my feelings and was amazed by them. And all his romantic lines afterward, the kisses, especially the touching, "I do rather like that, you know..." I adore that response of his, and what a creepy contortion that line becomes in response to the sadistic kisses of Patch 6! I had a positive emotional explosion after the Act 2 scene, I was glad that Tav's facial expressions didn't mirror mine, otherwise it would have been horrible to continue playing the game and talking to Arabella about the death of her parents when I can't get the smile off my face. But the scene after Yugir seems better to me too - I want it in my next playthrough. It reflects just the sort of vision of the development of the romance with Astarion that I was hoping for in the future, still walking around in chapter 1. I imagined Astarion as a kind of evil and fun seducer who actually wanted me physically, maybe saw some advantages in becoming the group leader's lover (well, I almost guessed the motivation with "for protection" before, just in a slightly different way), but wasn't in love. Because of his past, he won't let anyone close, he doesn't trust anyone, he snaps a bit in response to displays of warmth towards him (""So cute..."), but eventually he'll be able to get to know me, I'll do something meaningful and serious for him in his plot, and he'll see me as a really close person. I didn't know about the ritual yet, and I thought at the time that there might be some serious recognition after killing Cazador, and the relationship would become a really deep connection. The funny thing is, the scene with Yugir is much more similar to my then idea of the possible development of a romance with him.

I think there is no opportunity to open consciousness in the kneeling scene for one simple reason. In the Act 2 scene, as was rightly pointed out, all confession options lead to the same thing. The player can imagine that he has opened his feelings and Astarion has reacted to it. The range of the player's feelings varies, but any variant fits into the fact that the romance is taken to the next level. In the kneeling scene, the author set his own image of Tav. Tav has become a tool of the narrative. The discovery of the player's feelings, which in all likelihood will not match that tool, will prevent the player from being shown as a person who fits the narrative. And if Astarion reacts only by repeating again: "On your knees, darling!" it will be the most perfect nonsense. The range of feelings can also be different - you have to make a choice of at least some "guiding lines" in your head, like, "What do you want to show Astarion?" And Astarion's reaction may be different from the behavior that was originally planned for him. A novella about abuse might not pan out. That's why this is the kind of rails needed for this story.

Hahaha. It felt like that for me, really. Everyone has their own taste and it's great, that there are different paths to choose from. I am not into "romantic" romance scenes, especially not where the couple is expressing their love like this confession scene. I prefer enemies to lovers or dark romance stories with roleplaying D/s or kink, so I really liked Astarion's act 1 and act 3 (AA) romance scenes, all general scenes, and dislike (or better say: not so my taste) act 2 confession, though the hug and neils voice acting is great. I understand when people love this scene. I go with AA and I am happy with it.

So, still hope, it was just a fanfiction idea, which went wrong, in patch 6 and they will change Tav's facial expressions. Because trying to teach or educate grown up people or subs, who like (!) and want to roleplay dark romances, kink or BDSM in a fictional fantasy world , is not only gross, it's a nonsensical, ridiculous, very comical thing and a disservice. What would come next? Trying to teach homosexual people or those who romance the same sex to get straight? I hope not!!

I'm going to agree with something starryophonic wrote, which is that relationships can be complex without introducing problematic content.

I'll also out myself somewhat by stating that I am a submissive and a masochist. Most of the time, when I see kink portrayed in media (be that literature, video games, or what have you) it's poorly done and misrepresents how much of a role consent, trust and negotiation between partners plays in the relationship.

I think it's fair to say that Astarion (UA and AA) touches on themes of dominance and submission, but without fully engaging with them (the game flirts with the subject, but doesn't explore it beyond a few winks). I think it would have been interesting to embrace the subject more, with Tav and Astarion having at least a conversation about preferences and boundaries.

One of my gripes with UA has always been that he turns fairly vanilla, as if the kink was just part of his act. Which bothers me on several levels. At the most basic, there's a subtle implication that kink is somehow 'wrong' in that only an evil character would partake. It would have been nice to see UA and Tav engaging in some dialogue about what he enjoys/wants to explore now that he's decided a physical relationship with Tav is back on the table.

I finally watched the whole lecture scene. Yes, this video really makes a strong impression, even Tav seems kind of vile in this video, she evokes a certain disgust. Astarion is really painful to look at. Really, I don't think this scene can teach anyone anything, much less how to behave in a relationship. I agree with what I wrote above Zayir on this subject. I will add from myself that even the very first line that leads to this scenario: "I was hoping that as a reward for my support you'd throw yourself to me" - it's so much for...ahem...roleplaying a strange character who, if shot in the head, won't hurt their brain, that I don't think any significant percentage of players choose it for the main walkthrough, especially when immersing themselves in the game and roleplaying a character as similar to themselves as possible. I'm not even talking about the subsequent lines. This scene, as I see it, is mostly used by those players who want to watch maximum content and choose all possible options to get to know the game and character from all sides. Well, or to post a rare scene on their youtube channel. Yes, that scene is strong, and such players of course get strong impressions and can appreciate the full spectrum of the character, but they are not learning, they are watching, they are not roleplaying, they are exploring the world and the character.

It certainly makes an impression though... I now don't know how I'm going to play with Astarion in Act 1, the seduction scene of Act 1 used to be one of my favorite scenes, and now I'm starting to imagine how he's going to feel in that scene, it's extremely hard to get rid of that metagame. Also that suffering face of his at the moment when he proposes sex at the camp. I haven't checked to see if they removed that facial expression of his, or if it's still there. There's no way to react to it, no way to ask what's wrong with him. The romance will not begin unless there is a sex scene. Tav can't confess her love to Astarion and propose an asexual relationship. Yes and bullshit because that would be a metagame at this point. But if they made that suffering face, why didn't they give us a chance to talk to him, why can't I start a romance with him without sex, swear to protect him, or somehow else resolve this situation to start a relationship with him without making him feel bad? I, of course, always suggest that he bite myself in this scene and he definitely enjoys it, but does the pleasure of biting really make things better?

Or is his suffering primarily due to the fact that Tav didn't hear him and his words didn't matter and that's why he felt miserable, and it wasn't that bad before? He says he didn't feel anything before.... I already felt guilty about him even after a good Act 2 scene, though that quickly went away because of the elation of him confiding in me, his new romantic lines, the kiss, and the fact that he smiled for the first time really smiled and opened his eyes wide (I consider this detail in Astarion's facial expressions one of the best moments in the game for me). But now I fear this guilt will haunt me as I make my way through the first chapter. Why is there really no option for a romance without sex in the game? I don't want to be sexually objectifying and using the person I love. And for all that, having done such a scene with Astarion, they still decided to cram in the line, "I want your body". To make the player feel like crap for choosing that, or what?

Yeah, even with the sadistic kisses out of the way, I have to " wanna be a vampire"" a priori. I've done everything for this... I've dreamed my whole life, jumped out of my pants just to be a vampire. And of course, that's the first thing I'm gonna tell my beloved so he'll think that's the only reason I helped him. An evil player does everything for power. Maybe someone plays that way, why not, only they have to want it themselves, not the script has to force them kick them into "officially approved evil roleplay".

I think that gets to a lot of what bothers me about the AA hate discourse. I definitely feel this twinge of kinkshaming to the criticism. I mentioned before that a clip of post-Ascension Astarion telling Tav "you await my command" seemed to instill a lot of ill feelings in people who don't prefer that path and is one of the many pieces of evidence presented that AA is abusive (and to be fair, some folks who like AA don't like that line either). I'll out myself a bit too and say that line felt like it was speaking directly to my kinks. Every time I re-watch that scene you pretty much have to peel me off the floor.

And honestly, and this is something I'm fully willing to admit could be me reading way too much into it, but I read a little bit of kinkshaming into some of the companions' reactions too. Pretty much none of them approve of the Ascension, which doesn't mean they don't approve of D/S, but there's this air of, "Astarion is clearly evil now. I can't quantify in what way he's more evil than before (again, the 7k souls could still die even without ascension), but just look at him!" Very Willow from Buffy, "I'm a bloodsucking fiend! Look at my outfit!"


I don't see AA as an abuser; rather, I see him as a dom "finally free to explore his own desires" as he says in Sharess' Caress," but I wish that side had been better explored beyond "evil bad guy dominant now rawr rawr" because it definitely seemed like they were starting to steer in a more complex direction, and then kind of petered out. It would have been really nice to see this stuff explored meaningfully in a video game, with the caveat that I would have expected them to consult with an actual member of the community to make sure the portrayal is as accurate as possible, within the rules of the game's world.

Honestly, while I know this isn't a perfect answer to what's being asked for here, I think a lot of posters here would find a romance that's more suited to what they're looking for (in regards to healthier D/S dynamics with an evil elf, at least) by playing Marazhai's romance in Rogue Trader. That romance does a lot of what's being asked for here, and it's quite popular and well liked.

I think you hit upon something interesting here. It seems safe to say that Ascencion is *intended* to be Astarion's evil outcome, the way that being loyal to Vlaakith is Lae'zel's and becoming a dark justiciar is Shadowheart's. It could be a thing where the writer's felt that this path (which involves participating in a literally hellish ritual) was self-evidently evil enough that they forgot to show the fullness of why. Personally I think his full going over into evil is also obvious based on who he was and wanted to be before, given how he basically says at multiple points that he thinks having power gives you the right to abuse it, but that's just me. It can easily be argued that the game broadcasts Astarion's evilness post-ascencion without actually getting opportunities to show it. It's tougher to do that when he's still under the control of the player as part of his party, but he also demonstrated that left to himself he'd be evil anyway so it can depend on the viewer. I think that Wyll suffers the same fate but to a worse degree because there wasn't even any pre-establishment based on his character beforehand. There's a weird vibe around his politician outcome at points as if that's meant to be his evil ending, with the game seeming to assume Wyll's motives are entirely different to what he's shown at any point. Probably in part a consequence of the rewrites.

It turns out that in order to show "Oh, how evil Astarion is!" and to introduce "abusive relationships" into the game, the author used the theme of the BDSM community. Against the backdrop of the fact that the game welcomes tolerance, there is an opportunity to roleplay a character of any gender and sexual orientation (unless, of course, you do not ascend Astarion), why the hell, let me ask you, in this case, one of the forms of sexual relations between people, they use in order to "show evil"? In the eyes of someone unaccustomed to using critical thinking who is far removed from this subject, the picture that emerges is that "the dominant is evil", and "the submissive is the victim", and the victim, moreover, should still be ashamed of something. Well, or they think that if it says "victim", then they can be "shamed", "victim" is someone weak, and nothing will come back to you from the "victim". I myself do not feel any shame for this "criticism", you yourself gave an excellent example of the quality of this "criticism". But I understand that many people take this nonsense seriously, I sympathize with them, and I think that the use of propaganda methods, at least propaganda of "healthy relationships", at least anything in the game, and the use of propaganda methods and leads to such mass attacks on the "opposition", clearly does not honor the creators of this game. Just a little advice, if you are offended by some opinion, try to stand back and evaluate the quality of that opinion and the level of intelligence of the person who states that opinion. It will immediately become easier.

However, if authors wish to introduce the topic of D/s relationships into the game, they should consistently research the topic, consult with those in the community who are knowledgeable about the subject matter. Be mindful of the consent of both partners, and not show any variant of human sexual relationships as an example of "in-game evil" or "abusive relationships". And if the character is not exclusively described as "dominant" or "submissive", but is a popular character who is loved by a large number of players, you should also give a classic romantic variant or a gentle, softened version that would appeal to regular players as well.




I've read raves about this romance from fans of it. I don't look for D/s romances in games myself, but big kudos to Owlcat Games for being able to show the dark eldar properly and consistently, in line with canon. But I would have liked to be able to play with Astarion, he was the one I wanted to play with, and he was the only reason I didn't quit this game. And for his sake, I studied the D/s topic to understand him better, to understand why he needs it, and, accordingly, to accept this option. I put enough emotional and intellectual effort into accepting this D/s option before it finally turned into sadism in the game. And I think the game's authors should also put some effort into making this relationship option possible for acceptance. And as the game is now, it's unacceptable to anyone, neither D/s fans nor other AA fans.

To be fair, it's not unacceptable to *everyone*. I get what you mean, most AA fans don't like it, but while I do find the way the patch 6 kisses to be quite silly in how they're programmed, I appreciate the general narrative that's being presented here, and I've seen a few (not many, definitely a minority in the AA fandom, but a few) people who hold similar opinions.

I chewed on somewhat similar romances that I could recommend because of similarities to Astarion yesterday in my sleep, as they might help someone.

For the D/s crowd, the only other one I can think of that explores that other than Marazhai is Iron Bull from Dragon Age Inquisition. He's a very different character from Astarion though, other than the fact he's bisexual, he's kind of a chaotic-neutral to chaotic-good rugged kind of character. There's no "dark romance" so to speak. Also, he's honestly quite ugly.

For people looking for somewhat similar personalities/vibes, I can think of:

Daeran Arendae from Pathfinder:WOTR. He's a brattish young noble with a tragic backstory who's evil but not in a "mwahahaha murderhobo" way. Reminds me of Lestat, in places. His romance is very focused on the /romance/ part, he's a big romantic. It's not super to my taste, I'm very surprised to see that the overwhelming majority of people think his romance is leagues ahead of Astarion's, but I think it's very shaped by my disinterest in romances for the sake of... romances, if that makes any sense. I do romances to get to know characters better/see more of them, not because of an interest in feeling romantically pursued or seeing a romantic story. I get this is not the most popular or obvious mindset to have, though. Anyways, it's a very popular and HUGELY well-liked romance, I've seen people say it's a romance RPG players need to experience at least once.

Dorian from Dragon Age Inquisition (do keep in mind, he will only romance male characters) has a somewhat similar vibe, I suppose. He's not really evil, but he's snarky and displays a lot of vulnerability and cheekiness with the player.

Fenris from Dragon Age 2 has a very different personality (he's cold and aloof, very uhhh, mysterious) but he's also a morally dubious white haired elf with magic scars given by his previous master on a bloodthirsty revenge quest. You can also do an enemies-to-lovers thing with him, for those interested in that. Can be quite vulnerable.

Zevran from Dragon Age Origins is more similar to Astarion in personality, and he's also a morally dubious charming and flirtatious elf rogue. His backstory with the Crows also bears some similarities. It's a very popular romance, I think.

Finally, I don't think these characters are similar at /all/ (save for being elves) but I've seen a weird overlap between AA fans and Solas fans, so IDK, maybe someone would be interested. Solas is from Dragon Age Inquisition, but do keep in mind he will only romance female elves. I find him to be quite serious and intellectual, he's quite interested in the spirit world and his elven culture/elven ancestors/the ancient elven legacy, so to speak. He's also very morally dubious and complicated once you get to know him, but his motives are compelling and easy to understand.

It's important to keep in mind for those who might care about that that most of these romances, save for Marazhai and arguably Fenris (although it still plays out super similarly in his case), don't have branching paths in the way Astarion does (in the sense that you can go Spawn or Ascended). They're still RPG games where they will react to your different dialogue choices but the general scenes are going to always be the same, as with, say, Karlach (ignoring the epilogue). The other romances with /somewhat/ branching paths I can think of are Alistair and Leliana from Dragon Age Origins, but they're very, very different characters from Astarion.

100 % agree. A lot of people criticize and blame other people, kinkshaming included, for choosing AA route without the understanding WHY a lot of people WANT and LIKE this route.



Honestly, I don't think that you know what players, who are into D/s or kinks, like, want or what they are looking for in a fantasy setting. There are different tastes.

But most of us (also players who are not into D/s) don't like when other people (e.g. Larian, not you!) try to dictate what we should like, how we should feel or what we should look for in a fantasy game. And that's what a lot of people are complaining about with patch 6 and want to be changed. Although recommending a good game might be a nice thought and there might be players, who prefer other stories or games.

There is no perfection in a game. Some people may like this and dislike that, that's normal, there is no story which is perfectly written to all tastes, and there can't be. Some may find the Emperors choice great, some dislike it, some think it's a great script, some think it's a bad script. But that doesn't mean players dislike the game or the stories in general, just because there may be a scene or a voice line not to their personal taste.

As I remember well, you already agreed with the majority, that Larian shouldn't force or dictate for the majority inappropriate non-con on the player's character, in an everyday kiss, which before patch 6 was always con.

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What's inappropriate is, to dictate players how they should feel or play. There are consequences in RPGs, but no punishment of players. Such a system is not appropriated . And wouldn't work.

As we could see in the evil run, which has less content than a good run. Players (whether they are morally good or bad) who decide to make an evil run and let their tav take over at the end, besides of having less quests during their journey, will get a more or less bad ending (in the sense of, not so well done in comparision to other endings, very short). Funny but even Astarion complained about you, what you have done, right after encouraging you. So there are people who think, making evil choices in BG3 punishes the player (if it's true or not I don't judge here), because there is less content = less hours, and shorter endings.

A quick side note: When announcing the new evil endings, some people suggested in the discord channel: Don't improve the evil endings! If players choose the bad/evil ending, they should (!) feel bad (!) about it! (They = real players.)

Did the "evil run" or evil ending with less content, teach the players, who chose it, anything? Did they rethink their lives? Or how they like to roleplay in a game? Well. No, of course not. It's impossible to force people or dictate them how they should "feel" or play, you can surpress them, you can blame them, kinkshame, but you cannot form them to your will. You cannot force people to dislike things or the opposite to like things, or change their personalities. Or tastes. You can only surpress them and make them angry on you. A method of teaching and punishment in an RPG is more than dubios. You find such things in some other systems.

In an RPG people play different characters, whatever they play, it's not of the business of others. There should be consequences in the story, but never punishment.

Not 100% related to the thread, but I feel like I stumbled into Wyll's "evil ending" almost by accident. I chose to have him break his pact with Mizora because a contract with a demon seemed like an objectively evil thing, and unlike Astarion, Wyll obviously cares about being a good person so I thought, sure, have him not be bound to a demon anymore. If breaking the pact had insta-killed his dad, maybe I would have seen it as a bad ending, but all that really happened was Mizora messed with us when we did go to rescue his dad (since we were in the neighborhood anyway, saving the other prisoners), so...how is that the evil ending? I think it speaks a lot to how underdeveloped Wyll's material is.

With regards to the ritual being objectively evil, it speaks to something else that I think about a lot regarding the anti-AA crowd. There seems to be this idea that unless you're deliberately playing an evil playthrough, then any decisions you make in the game reflect your values in real life, and that you should strive to make good and moral decisions. They talk about helping break this cycle of abuse/violence, helping Astarion see the good in himself. But the question I never see asked is, is it good and moral to have Astarion in your camp in the first place? Regardless of your shared problem, is it the good choice to have someone in your camp who's prone to biting people, who approves of slavery and genocide under certain circumstances, who generally loathes any purely heroic figures and acts? Who repeatedly expresses gleeful interest in screwing over the only family he's had for two centuries in order to complete this ritual? Forget the fact that he can ultimately not go through with it; the fact that he seriously wants to would be a sign that you're traveling with a bad guy.

It's just interesting to me that the question is always, "How can I fix Astarion?" and not, "Should I even have Astarion in my camp?"

I don't know if I expressed myself in a way that read hostile given this answer, but I feel like it's quite sensible to suggest trying out Marazhai's romance when people are talking about wanting things that are very present in Marazhai's romance, when they're expressing a certain amount of discontent with the way AA's romance has played out, especially in regards to D/S. I wasn't dictating anything and I don't like being ascribed that, I prefaced my message by saying it's not a "perfect solution" because I'm very aware people romance Astarion/AA for a lot of different reasons, or a combination of factors, thus it's not going to be /exactly/ what they want or are asking for here, because Marazhai /isn't/ Astarion, but if people are asking for a well-researched and lengthy exploration of a explicitly consensual and respectful D/s romance that doesn't, say, "judge" evil actions as it was being talked about on here, that is very much Marazhai's route.
We don't know if Larian's going to change anything, and at best I'm pretty sure they will only somewhat change the kisses, and a lot of people will still be unsatisfied with aspects of the romance. I think it's more helpful to suggest things people might enjoy if they feel let down, rather than just wait indefinitely for something that, seeing how Larian has been talking about BG3, is just 95% not coming.
I don't understand the second paragraph because I wasn't suggesting players here dislike the overrall game or its story.

Anecdotally, I've seen a lot, and I mean a lot of AA fans "convert" to Marazhai and say that it's "what they wanted from AA" or "leagues ahead of AA's writing". So it didn't seem out there to recommend him as a way to find a romance that might resonate more for some, seeing it has already worked for some AA fans. It's not for everyone here, and I specified as much in my original post. But it can be a good romance for some.