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I apologize for interrupting the discussion so abruptly, but something worth noting came up yesterday. The companion character designer lead at Baldur's Gate 3, Baudelaire Welch, who is working on Baldur's Gate 3 as the romance feature lead gave a lecture on "Romance Design in Video Games" at Nordic Game. Since this author, in their own words, "wrote quite a few of the Astarian romance dialogues in the later period of production", this might be of interest to all of us. Unfortunately, Nordic Game's YouTube channel hasn't posted this lecture separately yet, so I'm posting a video of the full Nordic Game broadcast yesterday. Later I will change the video to a specific lecture, when a cut of all the speeches of yesterday will be available on the channel.

Time: 4.00.00 to 4.41.00.



I also put under a spoiler the text of the lecture in English, obtained with the help of a transcriber program, for those who do not have time to watch the whole lecture, as well as for the opportunity to check the quotes.



Welcome back, everybody. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. I see there's a lot of people here. I wonder why. Well, it's such a pleasure to present our next speaker, Larian Studios and their Baldur's Gate 3. Have you heard of that little game? Yeah. They are at the very top of the best game releases in the previous year, and for several reasons.

One of them is how managing relationships and feelings in the game plays a major role for narrative. To elaborate this, as the companion character designer lead at Baldur's Gate 3, please welcome Baudelaire Feltemelch. Thank you, everyone. Thank you.

Okay, so it's my first time giving this talk and I'm excited to present it to all of you for the first time. So I'm here to share some thoughts about why video game romance arcs matter so much to players as a whole in terms of representation, community, and to them personally. Also to give some thoughts about the ways that we can improve the way that we design romance storylines in the games industry as a whole.

So I worked on Baldur's Gate 3 as the romance feature lead, but this talk is more about the general cultural phenomenon of game romance with a couple of Baldur's Gate scene analyses in the middle of it. So there are a few other parts of game design which can make such a life-defining impact on the players who play them.

This is the feature which causes a portion of players to take to their computer and write a literal million words about the game that they've just played and fill that with character analysis. And this is the feature which causes players to recontextualize their own relationships and maybe even break up with their partner of 10 years because they've fallen in love with the game character.

This is the feature which can shape a teenager's entire perspective on how human relationships work, not that slide yet, and cause them to approach with the guiding principles of how we've designed these relationship systems their own lives. And it could shape the philosophy of desire in your brain for years to come. And in the immortal words of Nerf Herder, you don't want a boyfriend, what you want is Mr. Spock.

We deserve to give these players better than seeing sex as some kind of gameplay reward. And I think we all know that the style, as we've seen in The Witcher 1, where you get an erotic achievement card for everyone you sleep with, isn't really on anymore. But I think we think it's not on, mostly because it depicts sex

as a gaming reward, and it's morally bad to do that, rather than also it being difficult and bad because it makes the characters really shallow. Because developer after developer is still really underplaying romance and shipping some very brief or very soulless versions of the feature and treating it like it's a bit of an embarrassing thing to include in their game.

For example, if you include a romance feature but you're massively underplaying it and giving it next to no gameplay time, like the fact that Pillars of Eternity 2 has a 70-hour gameplay time and about five minutes of romance scenes per character, you're sort of misunderstanding fundamentally why players find romance stories compelling and thinking they only want just a little touch of baseline sappiness, sentimentality, or horniness sprinkled into something. People want this feature out of a desire

for character depth, as they want any other feature that increases the depth of a character from every angle. If you're going to cram romance into 10 minutes of such a long game, hoping that you're just going to get a nod from the fan fiction demographic, people will realize that the fan fiction demographic themselves is just being pandered to tokenistically. When I was 12 years old, I played Mass Effect for the first time.

And I can remember that the first being, human or otherwise, I ever had a crush on was Garrus Vakarian. And I read over 3 million words of Garrus Vakarian fanfiction when I was a teenager. I went back and calculated them all in a spreadsheet at one point. And...

Being in love with this character changed my perspective of the media format forever. And this is my teenage notes app to prove what I'm saying to you. I realized that one of the million reasons I love Garrus is the 1% nasal voice, which I just love so much and find amazingly pretty. I could yell about Garrus' voice for centuries, but just that particular little aspect, yes.

Delving any deeper than three or four years into the Teenager Notes app seemed a little bit dangerous, so I didn't go any further, but, you know, true fad there. And being in love with this character really changed my perspective of video games. Like, I liked video games a lot before that, but this character and several of the other Bioware love interests had a near spiritual, emotional resonance for me as a lonely teenager who didn't have that many friends and had even further no romantic hope whatsoever.

It became my life dream to work on video game companion characters because I knew Garrus would never marry me as I don't endorse police brutality. I decided that I wanted to work on Borderless Gate in the middle of the time when I was previously working on Crusader Kings. I was very fortunate that when I applied after early access that I was suddenly made the companion character lead narrative designer.

During that time, I spent quite some while working on the romance scenes for the companion characters as a thing that I was being the most annoying about on a daily basis out of all of the companion characters' arcs. Also, occasionally, I would swap in and write some of the romance dialogues. I wrote quite a few of the Astarian romance dialogues in the later period of production.

Also, on the side, because I'm a terrible person, I am the main dialogue writer for the Dark Urge character, so I'm a really terrible person. But after working on these romance scenes myself, I know I will never be in love with a fictional character again, but I still want to see something new, something that will wow me and maybe even change my mind about that. So I keep thinking about how we can depict more compelling romance stories in games, and these are some of my thoughts I'm going to share with you guys today.

So no video game character will ever matter quite as much to me as Gareth Vicarion, for example. But if you in your games present a character with a good enough romance arc, perhaps it will impact someone's most personal heart. And when they're a teenager, they might say the same things as I think. And one day, maybe they'll even be giving a talk about the romance in your game like this.

So, in advance of talking about improvements for the sort of storytelling, I want to define that I'm not talking about scripted romance that is a part of a game. Things like in Monkey Island or Uncharted where there's just a romance story that's a part of the game. I'm talking about games which systemically design for players to make a series of in-game choices that lead to unlocking different romance content depending on their player choices. So,

Why am I talking about this specifically? Most of the time when you watch a romance that's on rails in a video game, it doesn't really lead to a particularly different set of feelings than if you are watching something on TV or reading a book. It's its own thing. It's sort of easier to sell because you can set up the whole storyline to have these scenes sort of integrated at points where you know that they're going to happen rather than leaving it up to the player so much.

But when romance content is optional and varied in a game, it requires the player, even if it's only a tiniest scrap of their actual interest, to contribute some of their own desire to the equation in the romance plotline when they drive their character to do that romance quest. And even if it's only a scrap of desire, that little bit of desire says multitudes about the player who is playing the game.

Why does romance in games matter beyond fan service? I've got some thoughts on this for the first big part of the talk. I've already said that for a portion of your players, video game romance can be personally life-defining in a way few other game features or features in any media can compare to. But why is that?

Number one thought about this, simulation of sexual identity is one of the closest to reality character traits that you can roleplay in a game. It's way easier to learn something about yourself as a player from playing this feature than learn about yourself from playing most other RPG features.

I think the reason for this is because of all the elements we're able to see ourselves in in games, video game romances are kind of the closest to life. You know, oh, I'm an elf. Like, is that going to get me any comparisons to my worldview? It probably won't. I'm playing neutral good. I see myself as an average nice guy, but I have commitment issues.

I'm a barbarian. I guess I can drink more than the people who are twice my height. But oh, I'm playing as a man and I'm kissing a man for the first time somehow just because in the game he asked me if I wanted to and something in me made me say yes.

Most RPG identity parameters are inevitably escapists, as I just said, but even in a situation where the romance in a game is going to be a little bit silly, most of the time when we are asked whether we want to do a video game romance in an RPG, we are still directly confronted with a question that's basically the same as the question we get about sexuality in real life, but we maybe just never asked ourselves or had to be confronted by it before.

So, part two, in games, people are forcibly confronted with questions about what they want out of a relationship more when they're playing an interactive relationship than if they were passively watching a scripted romance film or scripted romance.

I once got a message when I was sending out a game, Don't Wake Me Up, which I will talk about at the end, for beta testing for choice of games. In this game, there's a character who romantically manipulates the player in order to try and get revenge on them. This isn't revealed until the very end of the game, which is not available in the beta test that I gave the player, but the introductions of this character were.

And after I was in on the beta test, one of my players told me she had broken up with her partner of 14 months because she was so swept away by just the beginnings of this romance story that I had written and not aware that this story was meant to be fake.

And this is a story, even for a more real relationship, that I've seen again and again, people talking about. A lot of people have talked about it for World of Skate 3. Players are forced to actively put themselves in the shoes of someone in a new relationship. That can make them recontextualize their own life. I mean, that's what art is meant to do anyway. Art is meant to make you rethink your position in life, and that's the mirror to nature principle.

But because of the self-insert nature of video games being so strong, players can feel this on a fundamental, instinctive, and interior level that you wouldn't necessarily if you are watching a story playing out externally.

Literary theorist Melanie C. Green wrote there is a difference between reading a book and being transported by it. Transported individuals feel as if they know media characters and, in some sense, may think about them as if they are real people. Sympathetic characters may come to seem like friends. In some cases, this bond may even help satisfy individuals' need for belonging.

And this to me is the difference between seeing a romance character arc externally in a TV show and playing through it myself in a video game. But isn't this also the kind of feeling we want to strive for in an immersive video game to happen overall?

But note a connection in this quote between forming a bond and having a sense of belonging. To feel known by a character, you must feel like there's a place for that, which you identify with in the story you see. And that's why so many people realize they're queer, trans, gay, you name it, because an RPG asks you a question about identity. You yourself are forced to give an answer to the exact same question you could get asked in real life, but the game makes you choose.

So, on to the next part. Why else do romances matter beyond fan service? Romance is one of the longest tail parts of a fandom you can possibly create. People will write about a good romance in fan fiction for years. The character analysis in those fan fictions will continue perhaps even decades after you finish making your game, if it is one of the most known game romances of all time. But, you know,

Still, players will continue to debate character analysis on that online platform. And they just don't respond to any other feature in that kind of manner that delves into such degrees of character depth. And for some people, sex and romance content is just fan service. And yes, that's God of War clips that I can only find on Pornhub because they're not on YouTube.

and some people get some kind of surface gratification out of it, and then they just never think about it again. I'm looking forward to checking out the concubine booth later in the developer showcase. But if you want a long-tail fandom for your game, you need people to talk about your characters and analyze every detail of them ad infinitum.

The more fans you've engaged in cyclical character analysis, the more word-of-mouth interest you will generate for your game. It's the same as creating a game which has enough build loadouts. Where are my build loadouts? It's the same thing as creating a game that has loads of build loadouts that people are going to debate ad nauseam. It's just another in-depth discussion space without an answer to continue players intellectually engaging in your game, or hedonistically, I don't know.

And also the next point, the last point, I think, of this section of the talk, why do romances matter beyond fan service? Because if you include romances, the fem and LGBTQIA community will automatically feel included in your fandom if you have romance.

This is because we associate having romances with being able to level with the fan fiction demographic as a whole and treat those fans like they're worthwhile. You know, the fan fiction demographic is, as studied by Abigail Dekosnick, an overwhelmingly female and queer space, and also including a romance feature in a previously male-dominated fandom, due to then successfully validating the fan fiction demographic, can make players, even if they're not interested in romance, feel like your game is
being able to level with the fan fiction demographic as a whole and treat those fans like they're worthwhile. You know, the fan fiction demographic is, as studied by Abigail De Cosnick, an overwhelmingly female and queer space. And also including a romance feature in a previously male-dominated fandom, due to then successfully validating the fan fiction demographic, can make players, even if they're not interested in romance, feel like your game is trying to include everyone more broadly. Like, I have to respect the

Pathfinder series, when they could have easily continued to appeal to the old school market, but in the later games, they've been making these quests more and more broad. So, take the bear scene from Baldur's Gate 3. Why did it make such an impact? This is what it meant to me while I was involved with pitching it.

Look, this was not in the depths of my subconscious when I was pitching it. A sort of shit-eating grin was on my face when I was pitching it. But this is what it culturally means to me. It feels like a watershed moment in gaming history, where the fanfiction community felt like we were not a subculture within a fandom, but the majority audience that the game was catering to.

just in perhaps one scene or, you know, in a series of scenes, but still the majority audience. Players in the fan fiction communities had been joking for years post-Early Access about the different degenerate things they wanted to do with Druid Daddy Holson, and we gave them an incredibly silly scene which takes an identity moniker from the gay community literally. The gay bear becomes the gay bear.

And we gave them something which feels like it's from the tradition of CrackFic and present it as if it's a mainstream game feature. And then you feel like all the time you spent horny queer shitposting with your friends in your Discord is validated. It is real. It is a wonderful way of engaging with the game. It's seen. And how many other games on this sort of scale have made you feel that way?

Not that many. I know because I was writing fan fiction about Baldur's Gate 3 before I worked on it. So, the second part of the talk, how do we make romance better for our players in our games?

I've just got a couple of thoughts that are tips for what I would do to improve gaming as a whole. Let's say that this will revolutionize gaming. Don't have your romance quest culminate at the very end of a game.

Games have a longer play time than any other media format now, and we have a lot of space to show the development of a relationship once it's begun that we kind of rarely take advantage of. One of the things I think was a big step backwards for the recent Fire Emblem games was the removal of the bewilderingly inventive relationship system that they had.

These games have now moved into a really conventional format, as with the popular Three Houses. In Three Houses, you pick a character to build a relationship with, and then they propose to you at the very end of the game. Romance and the proposal is a final gameplay reward, not consummated until the final boss is defeated.

or consummated right before the final boss is about to be defeated. It's usually around that kind of benchmark that it seems like relationships happen in games. But Romance in Awakening and Fates for Fire Emblem is actually one of my favorite implementations of romance in gaming because it is implemented as inextricable from the combat systems. You order your units to fight alongside one another enough and the characters then form a relationship in the classic video game trope of having a workplace romance, which is very disproportionately represented.

But romance is there as part of the ideology of the sort of Greek phalanx, you know, if you fight alongside your partner, you'll fight harder to protect them and they'll be less likely to die. But additionally, romance is just there in these games as a part of life that's constantly happening in the background, you know, and people are just forming connections because they're around one another.

And they also deal with a very bewildering conundrum, which is that due to a rift in space and time, they encounter all of their future adult children very soon after each couple finds each other. And all this is populated with narrative events combining every combination of characters the player could have chosen to match up. And to me, the Fire Emblem Awakening and Fates games use the concept of game romance in one of the most creative and outlandish manners.

You know, they're confronted with a really unique and weird social situation in, oh, we just started a relationship, but here's our child. What the hell do we do? It's all done as a part of gameplay systems rather than just being sort of like quests that you know that you're following to succeed in the romance. And the romance tells dozens of character stories in parallel rather than just being like,

a player wish a film were just for their character. And I'm not saying that these romances are the most moving or deep in gaming due to the fact that each individual pair doesn't get that much screen time, but it's a really experimental and cool interpretation of a diamond epic romance system. And I mean, like, look at this player's, like, marriage planning chart.

Like, this is a deep system. And, you know, I think it really walloped the series to get rid of this stuff because, like, I'd love to see any game that is integrating romance into it do something that feels like it's as experimental and cool. So part two, how do we make romance better for our players, is if you have a really unusual systemic romance in your design, it will

in your game design, it will stand out because there are not that many games that do stuff like this rather than just providing it as a single linear player fantasy for themselves. But also a footnote, for the love of God, whatever you do, do not include lollies in your game. No lollies. No lollies. So,

Part three, how do we make Romance better for our players? There are so many types of challenging relationship issues that exist out there in the real world, but we've just never seen depicted in games. This is still in a fairly early stage of being a feature that's even perceived as something mainstream.

You can just pick one of these challenging relationship themes and you can write about it. And then you can be the very first person who's ever covered one of these themes. I mean, when in a video game have you ever seen a breakup scene that wasn't just like, oh, I would like to exit the romance quest now and no longer pursue it? You know, when have you, as a player, ever wanted to break up with a fictional character in that game? When have you ever been cheated on?

When has a character ever come to you and told you that they think the spark has gone from your relationship? When has a character's mental health suffered from being in a relationship? When have you ever been gaslit? When have you ever seen your partner become abusive? And warning right now, I'm about to talk about abusive relationship scenes in Baldur's Gate 3, so if anyone is not down for that, that is just a warning.

One of the hardest scenes that I worked on as part of the dialogue writing team for was the dialogue handing abuse in Astarian's backstory. Astarian is a character who makes many hypersexual jokes and treats his background as a sex worker with apparent relish and levity to start with.

But once the player delves deeper into his romance path, he explicitly opens up about his background of being sex trafficked and pressured into sexual situations. And seeing this seems like it's a huge bombshell for the player after they may have gotten a first impression of a comic relief character. But if you read between the lines, he's only been presenting himself as hypersexual as a defense mechanism. For so long, people have only valued him for sex, and he adopted his persona to protect himself. And I hope that this clip is going to work.

close to someone. Any kind of intimacy was something I performed to lure people back for him. Even though I know things between us are different, being with someone still feels tainted. Still brings up those feelings of disgust and loathing. I don't know how else to be with someone.

And in one of the critical path romance scenes, actually later in this scene, the player has to really read Ballerina lines and make a story and feel comfortable enough that he's willing to open up about this past. And players who don't figure out how uncomfortable he is, don't go down this path of, you know,

talking to him earnestly and leveling with him about his abuse and discomfort can actually end up persuading him into having sex with them then at a time where he's actually just masking his discomfort and going along with it because it feels like it's the only thing he values himself for.

It's probably the single most evil action you can do in Baldur's Gate 3. Writing for that scene was one of the hardest things that I worked on in the game. It was harder than writing any of the Dark Urges murder romps, to be fair. In this scene, the player simply says all of the dialogue options that look like they obviously lead to sex, as you would often be feeling like you're trained to do in a video game.

Astarian just chokes down his trauma. He doesn't tell you, he doesn't open up, and he just decides to sleep with us because he doesn't know what else to do. And he only realizes the next morning that he was unhappy the whole time, and he breaks up with you for this. It's too horrible to show. It's not going to work.

Is there no internet in here? There we go. It's almost funny. This is all a game to you, isn't it? No matter what I say, it doesn't matter. Not if you get what you want.

In this dialogue, I directly wanted to make the player feel bad for having learned the mentality of click-the-right-dialogue-options-to-get-sex-in-video-games, as that's kind of been baked into us as romance players of previous generations of RPGs. In this scene, it's you click the sex options and you'll further traumatize a traumatized person.

And the optimal outcome of the scene as a whole is Astarian being allowed to put up a boundary for the first time in his life and use the player as a safe place for emotional vulnerability and earnestly and decide for himself that he doesn't feel comfortable with this right now. You know, these sort of foundations that is really vital to establish in real life relationships, the hardly glamorous side of partnership where our real value as romantic partners is tested.

So, on to the next part of... No, don't play it again. Okay. The last part of how do we make our romance feel better for players? Wish fulfillment is forgettable. Players who go to write fanfiction are just as interested in hurt as they are in joy. Hurt is something to analyze. Hurt is a dilemma, and behind it is a moral choice.

We pride RPG design in giving us moral dilemmas to actually debate over, and we can do better than just like, oh, who did you romance, Triss or Yennefer? Either or question when we're having debates with our friends about romances. Like, if a romance played out in an exactly sentimental, they live happily ever after manner, there's no reason for a player to think about it that much after the fact when it's over, which for everyone is forgettable. And I'm sorry if you feel like we were too hard on some of the epilogues of the characters in Baldur’s Gate 3, but you know.

Okay, the last point of this before the conclusion, how do we make romance better for our players? Animated sex that is explicit is always going to age. We can have something that feels alluring, titillating even, if you want to, but remember the explicit Dragon Age Origins sex scene that got laughed off when it was revealed at E3 the first time that it was showed. Yeah.

That's why it's smarter to rely on conceptually sexy foundations behind your seeds in order to sell them. Think about this scene with Shadowheart. She can't swim, and she goes skinny dipping. She learns to swim for the first time. It's an aesthetic scene, it delves into the themes of the character, and it isn't a full-blown

pixels rubbing on each other and actually they're secretly wearing underwear off camera because we didn't make the models for anything else kind of stuff. Like, you know, I'm not talking about that for Baldur's Gate, they actually did make the full naked models as you've probably seen, all of you. But, you know, you give the player something that will set their imagination going and sort of like let them dream the rest and that's the sort of scene that I often like the most.

Oh, and actually the last point, players find solidarity and community in liking romances that have unconventionally attractive characters, which is the Tumblr sexy man principle, as I'm sure you're all familiar with, you know, defined by Freud originally the first time. So, you know,

When considering what kind of romance characters you want to design, it's always the weirdest characters people actually find attractive and obsess over for a long time. You know, we're beyond obligations to make characters conventionally attractive anymore. It might be pleasing to the sort of passing fan, but fans usually rally behind the fact they like a less conventionally attractive character, and it creates a pretty rabid community for a slightly fringe thing within the tastes of the overall fandom that has a great sense of solidarity behind it.

For example, I confess, I was actually blindsided by how popular the Cortex-X Dark Urge was going to be as a ship. But in hindsight, I sort of really shouldn't have been. I love it, by the way. I'm so pleased with the fandom.

The thing was posted on Reddit with the caption, sometimes dreams do come true, and I really feel that so hard. But I shouldn't have been blindsided by the fact that this is really popular, because I spent all my teenage years finding these attractive. So, I really don't know what I was thinking there.

And I think that there are so many people who are into characters like this. I know because you're laughing. I know that some of you are in the audience. But, you know, there's a big sense of community behind fighting another weirdo like you and a sense of belonging behind fighting other people who are attracted to these sorts of characters. So, like, why not create a bunch of subcultures for your game?

So, to conclude, writing fanfiction is sort of the largest time investment it's possible for a fan to have for your game besides actually playing it. It's also some of the most in-detail a fan can possibly engage with the characters and themes within a game, writing their own manifesto to add their imagination to expand upon the base material of the game very broadly.


being able to level with the fanfiction demographic as a whole and treat those fans like they're worthwhile. You know, the fanfiction demographic is, as studied by Abigail Dekosnick, an overwhelmingly female and queer space, and also including a romance. And I think that there are so many people who are into characters like this. I know, because you're laughing. I know that some of you are in the audience. But, you know,

There's a big sense of community behind fighting another weirdo like you, and a sense of belonging behind fighting other people who are attracted to these sorts of characters. So why not create a bunch of subcultures for your game? So to conclude, writing fanfiction is sort of the largest time investment it's possible for a fan to have for your game besides actually playing it.

It's also some of the most in-detail a fan can possibly engage with the characters and themes within a game, writing their own manifesto to add their imagination to expand upon the base material of the game very broadly. So if you present your characters and romances as straightforward and sex-goal oriented, there won't be very much left for fanfiction to analyze and discuss.

If anyone is taking photos, this is a summary of the slides in the talk. I probably should actually get through them pretty quickly. I'm not saying you have to take a photo. I'm just saying that's the information of Part 1. This is the information of Part 2.

The very last thing I was going to say is that if you're interested in any more thoughts that I've had about video game romance, I've actually made an entire game about this phenomenon that I started working on when I was 16. And I worked on it for nine years. It's called Don't Wake Me Up. It's a cyberpunk interactive fiction game. I mentioned the beta testing players earlier who broke up with their partners, so do beware about it. But it asks the question,

What if video game love interest were sentient AIs able to respond to the way that players sexualize them? It's published by Choice of Games, and in it, Len is the main villain who's an AI who's been designed to be the ultimate video game vampire love interest of all time. He's been min-maxed to be as sexy as possible by his developers, and he is desperately trying to deactivate himself because he does not like the life that he's living and fulfilling fanservice.

So, if anyone wants to learn anything further, you could go into the depths of some of the very first writing that I did, which I still, like, think is good, good, fast, and fun, and it solidified a lot of my thoughts as to, like, you know, the principles that we've discussed in this talk. And unfortunately, because I went slower than when I was panicking and timing this in the hotel, I think it's just about to be over, and I don't think there's going to be any time for questions. But thank you all for listening. I hope you got something on some level from this talk that you enjoyed.

I hope we do have time for some questions. We do have time for questions. Yeah, we do. Amazing. What a talk. Thank you. It was really good. Thank you. Really good. Okay, guys, we have time for two questions, maybe three if the two are really short. So who wants to ask Bo something?

Anybody? Well, one. I was thinking that maybe everybody would like to ask something, but yeah. Can we get the microphone for the gentleman there?

I think if you make it a limited resources, people get scared. But first of all, I think I was looking forward the most to this talk for the entire event, and you did not disappoint. Thank you. So good.

I don't have any shaves, so you know, that's the difference. Now for the question, how do you feel about doomed romances? What we usually have in video game romances is, it's always going to work out if you know

the right buttons to press, you pick the right dialogue options, and you avoid the bad ending. But I don't think there have been many games that explored explicitly a romance that literally, even if you as the player are interested, even if maybe it starts out, it can't work out. How do you feel about that?

I think that there was a really good example of this, actually, in Fear and Hunger, where in the very first playthrough that you can play, I can't remember the name of the... Darcy! Darcy, the Night Lady character. Unless you get to Legarde, the character who's being tortured in under 30 minutes, he's dead, and she spends the rest of the game sort of like, you know, horrified and going into a sort of psychological spiral.

over him and that really sets the sort of tone for like how this character affected her she sort of had a one-sided like relationship of being in love with him and you sort of see the spiral of that that looks like it's an example of failing in a game because it actually is because the player couldn't go back and repeat that quest line and succeeded it but it's incredibly incredibly difficult and I thought that if you're interested in that sort of thing fear and hunger you sort of see the like

total and really challenging failure for a romance to take off, and then you also see the way that it actually does not work out, even if she succeeds. But I thought that that sort of inversion of the failure of the romance is always going to be the default, unless you sort of try really hard to reunite these characters was really well-designed. That is a good example, I think, of that. Yeah. Give it up for that. One more question. Anybody? Yeah, over here. There?

In the middle. Yeah, can you see me, hear me? Perfect. Well, okay. Fight! Let's take it up there. Proceed. Great. So the question is, which character was actually the hardest to write for?

So I didn't do the actual dialogue writing for most of the characters. I mostly did a sort of planning and design supervision role for the companion characters and then reviewed them. I was assigned as associate writer for a lot of the Astarian dialogues towards the end of production, so I definitely felt like, you know, I wanted to try and

deal with some of the really difficult themes that were with this character. And I definitely felt like, just like I said, that those scenes about Asdarian opening up about sexual trauma and also, you know, the scenes where he sort of fails to confront it were by far the hardest character romance scenes to write for the game. And so now, please.

Thank you very much. This was a wonderful talk. My background is in looking into the transformative effect of games, especially how people can explore gender and sexuality through games, and it's so wonderful to hear you speak of that and to consider it so intentionally in your design. I'm curious about

how you've approached conventions the way you have. You speak specifically of different design conventions and how you try to tackle them and how you try to apply them. I wonder if there's any other romance conventions you'd like to tackle next. Is there anything that you're particularly passionate about challenging? So...

I always want to continue to work on games that have romance plots if I possibly can. And I think a lot of it is that list of like, you know, I made the cry of saying that there are so, so, so many themes that are difficult in relationships that we've just literally never seen in games. And I would love it if anyone else begins to explore things like, you know, abuse, gaslighting, like relationships going wrong, etc. in a lot of detail.

It doesn't have to be me. In fact, it would be great if everyone was depicting games as much less wishful when in their romances. But I definitely want to continue to delve into those really harder themes and keep going further with that. I'd love to write in the future characters who are very explicitly gay, queer, or trans in any further work that I'm doing to go into my own experiences as a non-binary person in relationships. So those are the things that I'd really like to do in future.

Great, a big applause. Bo, thank you for being here. Thank you, everyone. I'll be around if you want to talk. Thank you for listening. We will be back soon. So see you soon, everybody. Thank you.
When in a player-driven romance have you ever..?
1. Seen a breakup scene that felt like more than an “escape” function?
2. Been “cheated” on by another character?
3.Been told the spark is gone from your relationship?
4. Seen a character’s psychological state deteriorate from a relationship?
5. Seen gaslighting?
6. Seen a partner become abusive?

At the beginning of the lecture, Mx. Welch defines the general cultural phenomenon of game romance as: "This is the feature which causes a portion of players to take to their computer and write a literal million words about the game that they've just played and fill that with character analysis."

There's a little bit of it, isn't there? A million words about the game with requests to fix traumatic kissing scenes, to give players at least one adequate line in romantic dialog with their favorite character, and so on... No, of course, interesting discussions and character analysis are also present, of course. Thanks for that.

But further: «This is the feature which can shape a teenager's entire perspective on how human relationships work, not that slide yet, and cause them to approach with the guiding principles of how we've designed these relationship systems their own lives. And it could shape the philosophy of desire in your brain for years to come».

Before that, I thought that BG3 is an R-rated game and is intended exclusively for adults who already have their own idea of how relationships work and don't need to be forced to follow someone else's made-up principles. Teenagers, sort of, even by law, are not allowed to play this game yet, because such a game may not have the best effect on the psyche of a young person. No, of course, reality is reality, and teenagers, of course, find a way to play BG3. And it makes me very bitter to imagine what a teenage girl or boy might think and feel when exposed to the kissing scenes of patch 6. There is an opinion that UA's romance is "a romance for teenagers", but this is rather a slightly ironic expression, in fact teenagers can be sensitive and empathic, who can't bear Astarion's tears in the scene of refusing the ritual, and his "burning scene" in the docks, and protesting, thinking for themselves, and even doing everything out of spite - such teenagers also exist. It is an adult who can, having recovered from the first shock, turn on critical and analytical thinking, begin to understand what is going on - what the hell is this, where did it come from, and who did it... But a teenager? No, I'm in no way reproaching the authors for possible damage to the psyche of teenagers, after all, the game has an age rating, and teenagers should not play this game. But the idea that the function of romances in the game is to form some principles of building relationships - this idea in a game for adults seems to me not very successful. That's not what adults play for, adults don't need it, and moreover, adults get angry and start criticizing such attempts on the part of authors if they act too pushy and obvious.

«We deserve to give these players better than seeing sex as some kind of gameplay reward. And I think we all know that the style, as we've seen in The Witcher 1, where you get an erotic achievement card for everyone you sleep with, isn't really on anymore. But I think we think it's not on, mostly because it depicts sex as a gaming reward, and it's morally bad to do that, rather than also it being difficult and bad because it makes the characters really shallow. Because developer after developer is still really underplaying romance and shipping some very brief or very soulless versions of the feature and treating it like it's a bit of an embarrassing thing to include in their game.»

About sex as a reward and erotic achievement cards do not argue, I myself do not need it, although, someone may well like it. In BG3 itself there are also "achievements for sex", well, they didn't draw special cards, they limited themselves to achievements in Steam. The main thing is not to consider sex as a gameplay punishment. This is really bad and from a moral point of view in relation to the players, and it makes the characters not just superficial, but much worse - it completely crosses out the whole character, destroys his image and character. Although personally, the "sex punishment" in the game had a slightly different, more strange effect on me - I didn't love Astarion any less, maybe even more, against the background of all this injustice and cruelty towards him. I want to play BG3 just for him, and in my game, no matter what, he will always be free, loved, get his power, his Ascension and smile at the sun. As for the rest of the game world - I'm trying to remember the feeling I used to play the game with... It's hard to describe in words, but it was something "magical". It's not going to come back again. Too much criticism, too much analysis, too much understanding of how things work in this game. Sex as gameplay punishment can kill any magic.

«So no video game character will ever matter quite as much to me as Gareth Vicarion, for example. But if you in your games present a character with a good enough romance arc, perhaps it will impact someone's most personal heart».

Interesting. I criticized the authors of this game so many times for their superficial attitude to romance, for the "sex store" in the game, I thought that they tied the story arcs of the characters to the different sexual preferences of the players, that they do not understand and do not take into account the people who play with a soul, to whom their favorite character can touch the heart. Turns out that's not the case. They all do. And they create their scenes with a full understanding of it. And they also realize that:

«So, part two, in games, people are forcibly confronted with questions about what they want out of a relationship more when they're playing an interactive relationship than if they were passively watching a scripted romance film or scripted romance.»

Yeah, forced, by the way. We would have been playing quietly, enjoying our time with Astarion, but instead we are forced to try to shout, to break through the steel gates to somehow try to convey to the authors what we want from the relationship in the game. And the fact that we're really not passively watching a movie with "moral lessons", we love Astarion, we're immersing ourselves in this game, we're not going to MAKE him " fix himself" and torture him. We should be able to decide something in our own game because we are the inside, not the outside watching "Tav is a narrative tool". This is not a movie where I can cry at the "bittersweet" ending, this is my world, heck I am present there and I will not let anyone hurt my Astarion again! In an RPG - the player is always inside and the player makes the decisions, the player is NOT the tool, the player is the actor of the narrative.

«Players are forced to actively put themselves in the shoes of someone in a new relationship. That can make them recontextualize their own life. I mean, that's what art is meant to do anyway. Art is meant to make you rethink your position in life, and that's the mirror to nature principle. But because of the self-insert nature of video games being so strong, players can feel this on a fundamental, instinctive, and interior level that you wouldn't necessarily if you are watching a story playing out externally».

Sorry, I'm an adult and an independent person. I can't be forced by real people in reality to rethink my position in life unless I want to. I'm not talking about railroad scenarios. The Victorian era, when art took on the role of "teaching" society in general and women in particular how to behave, including in romantic relationships, what kind of men you can love and what kind you can't, if my memory serves me correctly, is long gone. Even postmodernism has already passed in the twentieth century. Ironic works of art that mock the function of "the author as a teacher of life," too, have long since ceased to be something new and surprising. You can't force a player to rethink something, you can only put rails instead of roleplaying or draw the facial expressions desired by the author on the player character's face, that is, make ultimatum those things that the player is unable to control. Forced in this way, the player, of course, is bound to rethink his attitude to the game and to the game scenario.

«Literary theorist Melanie C. Green wrote there is a difference between reading a book and being transported by it. Transported individuals feel as if they know media characters and, in some sense, may think about them as if they are real people. Sympathetic characters may come to seem like friends. In some cases, this bond may even help satisfy individuals' need for belonging. And this to me is the difference between seeing a romance character arc externally in a TV show and playing through it myself in a video game. But isn't this also the kind of feeling we want to strive for in an immersive video game to happen overall? But note a connection in this quote between forming a bond and having a sense of belonging.»

Yes. Please pay attention to this connection. It's important. And Melanie C. Green writes about the difference between reading a book and being "transported" into it. Regular people who bought the game write about this too. Into the void. But nevertheless, I take it back, regarding the authors' complete failure to envision immersive video game players. Only how do they envision them?

«And for some people, sex and romance content is just fan service. And yes, that's God of War clips that I can only find on Pornhub because they're not on YouTube.»

BG3-themed clips can be found in all of these places. And in more "specialized places" that, unlike Pornhub, cannot be mentioned in public discussion because mentioning such content would give it unwanted publicity and clearly violate some rule, they can now be found too.

«And also the next point, the last point, I think, of this section of the talk, why do romances matter beyond fan service? Because if you include romances, the fem and LGBTQIA community will automatically feel included in your fandom if you have romance.

This is because we associate having romances with being able to level with the fan fiction demographic as a whole and treat those fans like they're worthwhile. You know, the fan fiction demographic is, as studied by Abigail Dekosnick, an overwhelmingly female and queer space, and also including a romance feature in a previously male-dominated fandom, due to then successfully validating the fan fiction demographic, can make players, even if they're not interested in romance, feel like your game is being able to level with the fan fiction demographic as a whole and treat those fans like they're worthwhile. You know, the fan fiction demographic is, as studied by Abigail De Cosnick, an overwhelmingly female and queer space. And also including a romance feature in a previously male-dominated fandom, due to then successfully validating the fan fiction demographic, can make players, even if they're not interested in romance, feel like your game is trying to include everyone more broadly.»

And you and I are outraged that in this game, heterosexual men can do whatever they want, while women and homosexual men are the victims of violence. We're wrong again, friends! It turns out we're being treated like we're worth something! This is great news for us. We'll be in the know now, thank you.

The following is an excerpt about how the infamous bear sex scene was written. I note that Astarion was used for the humiliating commercial in this scene.

«So, take the bear scene from Baldur's Gate 3. Why did it make such an impact? This is what it meant to me while I was involved with pitching it.

Look, this was not in the depths of my subconscious when I was pitching it. A sort of shit-eating grin was on my face when I was pitching it. But this is what it culturally means to me. It feels like a watershed moment in gaming history, where the fanfiction community felt like we were not a subculture within a fandom, but the majority audience that the game was catering to. Just in perhaps one scene or, you know, in a series of scenes, but still the majority audience. Players in the fan fiction communities had been joking for years post-Early Access about the different degenerate things they wanted to do with Druid Daddy Halsin, and we gave them an incredibly silly scene which takes an identity moniker from the gay community literally. The gay bear becomes the gay bear.

And we gave them something which feels like it's from the tradition of CrackFic and present it as if it's a mainstream game feature. And then you feel like all the time you spent horny queer shitposting with your friends in your Discord is validated. It is real. It is a wonderful way of engaging with the game. It's seen. And how many other games on this sort of scale have made you feel that way?»

All I can say is that no other games have given me "similar feelings", it's true.

«But also a footnote, for the love of God, whatever you do, do not include lollies in your game. No lollies. No lollies.»

I'm sorry, I'm a little confused? What's the problem with lollipops? You can do traumatizing scenes, but you can't do lollipops. What does "lollipops" mean? Developer slang? If anyone has figured this out, clarification would be appreciated.

«Part three, how do we make Romance better for our players? There are so many types of challenging relationship issues that exist out there in the real world, but we've just never seen depicted in games. This is still in a fairly early stage of being a feature that's even perceived as something mainstream. You can just pick one of these challenging relationship themes and you can write about it. And then you can be the very first person who's ever covered one of these themes. . I mean, when in a video game have you ever seen a breakup scene that wasn't just like, oh, I would like to exit the romance quest now and no longer pursue it? You know, when have you, as a player, ever wanted to break up with a fictional character in that game? When have you ever been cheated on?

When has a character ever come to you and told you that they think the spark has gone from your relationship? When has a character's mental health suffered from being in a relationship? When have you ever been gaslit? When have you ever seen your partner become abusive? And warning right now, I'm about to talk about abusive relationship scenes in Baldur's Gate 3, so if anyone is not down for that, that is just a warning.»

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I would probably call this list: "A Practical Guide: How to Make a Player Unhappy in Your Game with Romantic Relationships."

If this is the new word in gaming, and it's the future mainstream, I guess I'll have to part ways with gaming and find some other hobby. Or, at the very least, be guided by the always relevant principle of "Trust no one":

- Oh, what an interesting review! What a great game is out! Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, don't go to Steam right away, let's go to the local forum first... Excuse me, can you tell me, do you have an abuser in the game whose mental health will suffer from the fact that he is in a relationship with me, because of which he will say that there is no spark between us before cheating on me? Will he say so much that I'll want to break up with him? You got it? This charming guy... Ah, you're already cursing and resenting... Okay, sorry, my deepest sympathy... I'm gonna get out of here...

- Oh, another game! What graphics! I'm sorry, can you tell me... Like, there's no such thing? Is it cool? Really? Will the game still be updated? Oops, just past release... Thanks a lot, I'll mark it on my calendar to check back in a year or two...

- So, what do we have here... Without romance, the plot on so will do... Well, gameplay and combat system praised... Ok, take it, will go to relax a little on the weekend.

What follows is an analysis of the dialog that tells of the abuse in Astarion's backstory.

«Astarian is a character who makes many hypersexual jokes and treats his background as a sex worker with apparent relish and levity to start with. But once the player delves deeper into his romance path, he explicitly opens up about his background of being sex trafficked and pressured into sexual situations. And seeing this seems like it's a huge bombshell for the player after they may have gotten a first impression of a comic relief character. But if you read between the lines, he's only been presenting himself as hypersexual as a defense mechanism. For so long, people have only valued him for sex, and he adopted his persona to protect himself.»

I wonder where Astarion treats his background "like a sex worker"? I haven't noticed that about him... Seductive? Yes, he's seductive - that's the beginning of the romance with him. But not that. But what struck me most of all was that it turns out that the player, up until this scene in Act 2, has an impression of Astarion as a "comic relief character". This is despite the fact that we know part of his history, about the Cazador, about the torture, have seen his scars. Is it his ability to make a sharp joke in any situation, no matter what, that makes him "comic"? Stephen Rooney, by the way, was talking about "evil and funny", not "comical" in any way. What else is "comical" about this game, according to the author? But I guess I'll have to keep my assessment of that to myself. After all, it's not easy to understand the character of a complex character created by another author.

Further on in the lecture M?. Welch tried to show a scene that I honestly have never not only seen in the game, but never heard of. It starts with Astarion and Tav lying somewhere.

Astarion: «It’s almost funny. This is all a game to you, isn’t it? No matter what I say, it doesn't matter. Not if you get what you want».

This scene in the lecture is interrupted rather amusingly, as if Astarion refuses to comply for a second and "breaks the cycle of abuse". smile

Who knows what this scene is? Does it have anything to do with the choice of lines in the confession scene of act 2? I just didn't even have a hint of this scene in my game, and the lecture talks about it in detail, I'm curious. Especially since in this scene Astarion doesn't open up, decides to sleep with Tav, and then decides to break up the next morning.

«In this dialogue, I directly wanted to make the player feel bad for having learned the mentality of click-the-right-dialogue-options-to-get-sex-in-video-games, as that's kind of been baked into us as romance players of previous generations of RPGs. In this scene, it's you click the sex options and you'll further traumatize a traumatized person.

And the optimal outcome of the scene as a whole is Astarian being allowed to put up a boundary for the first time in his life and use the player as a safe place for emotional vulnerability and earnestly and decide for himself that he doesn't feel comfortable with this right now. You know, these sort of foundations that is really vital to establish in real life relationships, the hardly glamorous side of partnership where our real value as romantic partners is tested.»

I didn't see that scene, but I agree with Mx. Welch's point. It's all right, but... Why then make us click "I want your body" later? How is understanding Astarion's injury in act 2 different from understanding his injury in act 3? Doesn't our real value as romantic partners get tested there anymore? I guess an adequate partner should a priori want to become a vampire, and that's, like, the only option...

«The last part of how do we make our romance feel better for players? Wish fulfillment is forgettable. Players who go to write fanfiction are just as interested in hurt as they are in joy. Hurt is something to analyze. Hurt is a dilemma, and behind it is a moral choice.

We pride RPG design in giving us moral dilemmas to actually debate over, and we can do better than just like, oh, who did you romance, Triss or Yennefer? Either or question when we're having debates with our friends about romances. Like, if a romance played out in an exactly sentimental, they live happily ever after manner, there's no reason for a player to think about it that much after the fact when it's over, which for everyone is forgettable. And I'm sorry if you feel like we were too hard on some of the epilogues of the characters in Baldur’s Gate 3, but you know.»

And players who don't write fanfiction, why hurt them? How about separating the fanfic writers and non-fanfic writers so that the non-writers can live happily ever after with their lover? I'm kidding, of course. But at the very least, it would be nice to at least dose that degree of " hurt and moral choice". At the first playthrough, the scene with the kneeling and the previous scares with the " commands ", caused hurt, though, more on the plot, which did not give me the opportunity to open up to Astarion and express myself, and just made me kneel. But later on I rethought it all, understood it, broke the social construct linking this action with degradation, it all, in general, can be called a new experience, albeit somewhat painful, not terrible.

But with patch 6, it's already such a level of hurt and pain that the only, I don't know how "moral", choice is to quit and curse the game or try to seek justice and a chance to be with Astarion for a little while longer. It's not called "too hard" it's called specific bullying by bringing traumatizing content into the game. It can be analyzed. And the hurt, and all the scripted moves, and even the possible motivations in writing this script can all be analyzed. Not in favor of scripting, and not in favor of immersion and "putting yourself in the game," alas. But why not let the players just play, rather than forcing them to be critics and analysts? We all know how to analyze, and in real life, in some work and daily processes we actively use it. Honestly, when I bought the game, I just wanted to live in a "magical world", not to analyze in detail the processes of inflicting certain offenses on me.

«I always want to continue to work on games that have romance plots if I possibly can. And I think a lot of it is that list of like, you know, I made the cry of saying that there are so, so, so many themes that are difficult in relationships that we've just literally never seen in games. And I would love it if anyone else begins to explore things like, you know, abuse, gaslighting, like relationships going wrong, etc. in a lot of detail».

Or maybe we shouldn't? Maybe we players have never seen them in games before for a reason? Maybe we don't want to see them? Especially in a lot of details. By the way, the gaslighting in the game is present and quite palpable. When at first the game was great, then some horror happened, which destroyed everything for you, you see it, others, who were affected by it, also see it very well. And everyone around you is running around happy, satisfied, getting rewards, pretending that none of this is happening. They convince you that you're stupid, you just didn't like the story, it's okay, you just misunderstand everything. That's kind of what gaslighting is, isn't it? I absolutely hated having such a complicated relationship with the game. And I'd be very happy if other authors do start exploring some more appealing romance plots. There are plenty of ways to write an interesting complex character, an interesting complex romance, without experimentally mocking the audience (the game character, the plot, logic, common sense) directly. Complex doesn't mean "torturous", and it certainly doesn't mean "impossible to get through".


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Okay, this is a ton of text, but, am I reading this right? They actually said they to make the players feel bad? They want to introduce abusive situations into video games? That's so disheartening to think that someone would be put in charge of an aspect of a game that means so much to so many people, and then gleefully brag about making it less pleasant. To what end?

Mx. Welch, if you're somehow reading this, I respectfully think you've woefully misinterpreted what players want in a video game romance, particularly when it comes to Baldur's Gate. We're not asking for our every whim to be met. We're simply asking for a fun experience where our characters are allowed to act and react in ways that make sense.

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In the text I highlighted the most interesting quotes for me. And so, yes, it is interesting just to listen to them.


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Originally Posted by starryophonic
Mx. Welch, if you're somehow reading this, I respectfully think you've woefully misinterpreted what players want in a video game romance, particularly when it comes to Baldur's Gate. We're not asking for our every whim to be met. We're simply asking for a fun experience where our characters are allowed to act and react in ways that make sense.

+1

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Originally Posted by Marielle
In the text I highlighted the most interesting quotes for me. And so, yes, it is interesting just to listen to them.

I'm not in the industry so obviously I have no sway or authority here, and I'm also not sure I have the energy right now to sit through the entire talk, but one thing that really sticks out to me is the idea that "complex" relationships necessitate toxic behavior like gaslighting. I already felt like my relationship with Astarion was complex without any toxicity. Hell, I feel like my actual relationship with my actual husband is complex without toxicity. We disagree on things. We have different perspectives. But we don't gaslight or get nasty with each other.

Sorry, this is making me like, physically upset. Astarion doesn't need to be an abuser in order to be an interesting romance companion. The game can punish me for seeing him as my property (with Araj) or a sex object (with having sex with him after he opens up about being a sex slave, I guess? Even though that didn't happen in my playthrough), but to steamroll us with bad dialog options after ascending him feels wrong.

And I get that some people are going to say, "Well, you should get that it was a bad choice because obviously look how evil the ritual was and you also had to sacrifice 7k people" but the game already imposes consequences that make sense. If you go through with the ritual, you have to contend with the Gur, and as far as I know you probably won't get their help in the final battle. Astarion's personality does change, and some people don't like it, so that's also a consequence.

But like with all consequences, sometimes you decide you're willing to live with them, and that should be okay. Like I might tell my kid, "It's fine if you want to stay at the playground for 10 more minutes but that means we won't have time to watch more Paw Patrol before bed (she's watching it right now and UGH I hate that show so it's on my mind)." She can decide if that consequence is okay with her. Can she stomp her feet and say, "No, I want both?" Sure, but that's not how it works. I can't ascend Astarion without the consequence of his personality changing (or revealing itself, as a lot of people see it), and I as the player get to decide if I'm cool with that. Just as I can decide if I'm okay with betraying the Tieflings in the Emerald Grove. To punish the player after they've already decided to accept the consequences would be the equivalent of me going to my daughter and saying, "Okay, you picked staying at the playground longer, but I don't like that choice so now you don't get to do either, or I'm going to just pick for you even though I set it up as your choice, or I'm imposing some other unrelated punishment because you pissed me off for some reason."

I've said it in other threads and I'll say it again here. There can be consequences for making bad decisions in games. A punishment for playing the game as we were allowed to, by giving us options that make no sense, is not the same thing.

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Originally Posted by starryophonic
Okay, this is a ton of text, but, am I reading this right? She actually said she wants to make the players feel bad? She wants to introduce abusive situations into video games? That's so disheartening to think that someone would be put in charge of an aspect of a game that means so much to so many people, and then gleefully brag about making it less pleasant. To what end?

Mx. Welch, if you're somehow reading this, I respectfully think you've woefully misinterpreted what players want in a video game romance, particularly when it comes to Baldur's Gate. We're not asking for our every whim to be met. We're simply asking for a fun experience where our characters are allowed to act and react in ways that make sense.


If I am remembering correctly in earlier threads she comes from a fanfic background ?

I think Fanfiction ought to just be used as an outlet rather than including peoples fanfic into a game if she went in on the Ascended is bad fanfic pool thinking the majority want this I'd say she's better looking outside of the twitter fanfic cesspool because abuse stories ain't that popular in real life what is popular in fanfic is the enemies to lovers trope not vice versa.

a game is supposed to be an escape point where you should be having fun .

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I also want to add, if the intention for this or ANY game is to show abuse, gaslighting, or problematic behaviors, that can be incredibly triggering for many players (look how many people were triggered by the new AA kisses who previously did NOT find any of AA's behavior triggering). You can't just throw that stuff in a game without some kind of content warning. The player deserves to know what they're getting into.

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Originally Posted by starryophonic
I'm not in the industry so obviously I have no sway or authority here, and I'm also not sure I have the energy right now to sit through the entire talk, but one thing that really sticks out to me is the idea that "complex" relationships necessitate toxic behavior like gaslighting. I already felt like my relationship with Astarion was complex without any toxicity. Hell, I feel like my actual relationship with my actual husband is complex without toxicity. We disagree on things. We have different perspectives. But we don't gaslight or get nasty with each other.

I agree. I understand you. I watched the lecture live yesterday and, of course, "charged with emotions" for the whole day. Reality - and what they try to show under such "complex reality" in the game, the difference between the former and the latter is like between a busy street and a drawing of a child looking at this street through the window.

Originally Posted by starryophonic
Sorry, this is making me like, physically upset. Astarion doesn't need to be an abuser in order to be an interesting romance companion. The game can punish me for seeing him as my property (with Araj) or a sex object (with having sex with him after he opens up about being a sex slave, I guess? Even though that didn't happen in my playthrough), but to steamroll us with bad dialog options after ascending him feels wrong.

Astarion wasn't supposed to be any kind of abuser. And he isn't. It didn't work out, and even the "kissing" scenes don't look like proof of that, but just footage filmed by someone, a prelude to a specific genre video, someone else's video that we're shown every time we try to kiss him. It didn't happen in my walkthrough either, I myself wonder where it is in the game, and after which it could happen.

Also, it's very strange when plot consequences are expressed in the form of such "video inserts". It feels like the "choice punishment" is done by shoving the player into some kind of novelistic plot where Tav is no longer the player's character, but some other character pre-thought out and spelled out by the author. No roleplay, no player. You just become part of someone else's story, how else can you show "complex" human relationships that no one has ever shown before in RPG games? Any "innovation" requires "experimentation". It's a shame that we've become part of it all.


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«Players are forced to actively put themselves in the shoes of someone in a new relationship. That can make them recontextualize their own life. I mean, that's what art is meant to do anyway. Art is meant to make you rethink your position in life, and that's the mirror to nature principle. But because of the self-insert nature of video games being so strong, players can feel this on a fundamental, instinctive, and interior level that you wouldn't necessarily if you are watching a story playing out externally».

This statement alone tells me everything, hybris, I haven't read everything yet. Lol, how amusing. No, art ist NOT there for people to REthink their position in life. Some people, who see art, may do this, but it is not exclusively "there" to "rethink". I don't believe in so-called, self-described "artists" who create "art" for the purpose of TEACHING "other" people. I personally see something like this as propaganda. For me, true artists are humble and create art for art's sake, which to me means so much, from within, the feeling in which the whole world, its ups and downs, the abysses and heavens, the sufferings and joys, the birds on the treetops, the insects in the air and under the fallen leaves, the grieving mother, the screaming child, the suffering of war, well I don't need to be baroque, but - reflects (!). I'm sorry , surprise, surprise, but for me you are not an artist. Well, that's just a side note.

Whatever they wanted to "teach" people, it went horrible wrong. There is a reason, why deviant sexual sadism (=non-consensual) is not mainstream. Because of this:

Originally Posted by starryophonic
I also want to add, if the intention for this or ANY game is to show abuse, gaslighting, or problematic behaviors, that can be incredibly triggering for many players (look how many people were triggered by the new AA kisses who previously did NOT find any of AA's behavior triggering). You can't just throw that stuff in a game without some kind of content warning. The player deserves to know what they're getting into.

But maybe someday it's normal to incorporate pedophilia and show and roleplay sexual child abuse in a mainstream game. I am sure, there are fanfics about it.


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Originally Posted by Ghostsecurity29
If I am remembering correctly in earlier threads she comes from a fanfic background ?

I think Fanfiction ought to just be used as an outlet rather than including peoples fanfic into a game if she went in on the Ascended is bad fanfic pool thinking the majority want this I'd say she's better looking outside of the twitter fanfic cesspool because abuse stories ain't that popular in real life what is popular in fanfic is the enemies to lovers trope not vice versa.

a game is supposed to be an escape point where you should be having fun .

Yes, that's right. In the lecture as well:

«I know because I was writing fan fiction about Baldur's Gate 3 before I worked on it.»

And now:

«It feels like a watershed moment in gaming history, where the fanfiction community felt like we were not a subculture within a fandom, but the majority audience that the game was catering to».

The image of enemy lovers. Thanks, now I see where this is coming from... In terms of literature and movies, it's already pretty corny in my opinion. But I don't usually read fanfics and I'm not well-versed in this subculture.

Originally Posted by starryophonic
I also want to add, if the intention for this or ANY game is to show abuse, gaslighting, or problematic behaviors, that can be incredibly triggering for many players (look how many people were triggered by the new AA kisses who previously did NOT find any of AA's behavior triggering). You can't just throw that stuff in a game without some kind of content warning. The player deserves to know what they're getting into.

Now that would have been great... Although, then I wouldn't have bought it and would have never gotten to know Astarion... The most frustrating thing is that things were completely different in EA. There was no fanfiction. Stephen Rooney, a fine professional screenwriter who had been at Larian for 9 years at the time, wrote Fane for DOS2 (the most interesting companion character in the game), and he was writing a script, not a fanfic for Astarion. Even after release, some things kept changing - the cutscene of the night after Ascension, Astarion's facial expressions...


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Originally Posted by Zayir
«Players are forced to actively put themselves in the shoes of someone in a new relationship. That can make them recontextualize their own life. I mean, that's what art is meant to do anyway. Art is meant to make you rethink your position in life, and that's the mirror to nature principle. But because of the self-insert nature of video games being so strong, players can feel this on a fundamental, instinctive, and interior level that you wouldn't necessarily if you are watching a story playing out externally».

This statement alone tells me everything, hybris, I haven't read everything yet. Lol, how amusing. No, art ist NOT there for people to REthink their position in life. Some people, who see art, may do this, but it is not exclusively "there" to "rethink". I don't believe in so-called, self-described "artists" who create art for the purpose of TEACHING "other" people. I personally see something like this as propaganda. For me, true artists are humble and create art for art's sake, which to me means so much, from within, the feeling in which the whole world, its ups and downs, the abysses and heavens, the sufferings and joys, the birds on the treetops, the insects in the air and under the fallen leaves, the grieving mother, the screaming child, the suffering of war, well I don't need to be baroque, but - reflects (!). I'm sorry , surprise, surprise, but for me you are not an artist. Well, that's just a side note.

Whatever they wanted to "teach" people, it went horrible wrong. There is a reason, why deviant sexual sadism (=non-consensual) is not mainstream. Because of this:

Originally Posted by starryophonic
I also want to add, if the intention for this or ANY game is to show abuse, gaslighting, or problematic behaviors, that can be incredibly triggering for many players (look how many people were triggered by the new AA kisses who previously did NOT find any of AA's behavior triggering). You can't just throw that stuff in a game without some kind of content warning. The player deserves to know what they're getting into.

But maybe someday it's normal to incorporate pedophilia and show and roleplay sexual child abuse in a mainstream game. I am sure, there are fanfics about it.

If you really, really want to use "art" (i.e. a video game) to teach people to recontextualize their own relationships, then you need to proceed extremely carefully. I would consider it irresponsible to do this without the guidance of some kind of counselor who specializes in addressing relationship issues/conflict resolution. Also, I don't think having the player go through the role of a victim of DV helps them "recontextualize" anything unless it gives them the ability to play through scenarios where they can disengage from the relationship, but I still think that's a really bad idea because in real live, DV situations are actually really dangerous to get out of and I don't think a video game is the right place to practice leaving them. Maybe that's not what they meant but IDK what else it could mean there.

I see a lot of reels/TikTok videos that talk about relationships and present conflict scenarios with examples of how to resolve them. You could do that, sure, and indeed, there are plenty of points in BG3 where I was called upon to de-escalate a conflict with Astarion, with another companion, or between other companions (Shadowhear/Lae'zel confrontation, anyone?). But I'm not really counting on the game to help me resolve real-life conflicts, not when the stakes in a fantasy setting are so different than a real-life one.

Art can make you think. It can help change your perspective. But art tends to fail when that is its stated goal.

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Originally Posted by Zayir
This statement alone tells me everything, hybris, I haven't read everything yet. Lol, how amusing. No, art ist NOT there for people to REthink their position in life. Some people, who see art, may do this, but it is not exclusively "there" to "rethink". I don't believe in so-called, self-described "artists" who create "art" for the purpose of TEACHING "other" people. I personally see something like this as propaganda. For me, true artists are humble and create art for art's sake, which to me means so much, from within, the feeling in which the whole world, its ups and downs, the abysses and heavens, the sufferings and joys, the birds on the treetops, the insects in the air and under the fallen leaves, the grieving mother, the screaming child, the suffering of war, well I don't need to be baroque, but - reflects (!). I'm sorry , surprise, surprise, but for me you are not an artist. Well, that's just a side note.

Yes, it always happens that when you meet art, it is difficult to analyze it at once, and you don't even want to - art conveys an emotion, a feeling, you begin to feel and experience it. Maybe it's the feeling that the artist felt, that he wanted to convey, or maybe it's something of his own, or maybe the emotion conveyed is expressed through your own. That's Neil's acting - it's art. You can feel Astarion's emotions, even without special analysis, you just somehow understand it, and already then, this understanding is added up with the facts of the game that you recognize. And it's impossible not to empathize with Astarion. And when only analysis is turned on, especially if that analysis is turned on after throwing you out of perception, and the question arises, "What is this nonsense here? What the hell is this?" - what kind of art is this?

Originally Posted by Zayir
But maybe someday it's normal to incorporate pedophilia and show and roleplay sexual child abuse in a mainstream game. I am sure, there are fanfics about it.

I hope that doesn't happen... Is this all really freaking "mainstream" now?


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Originally Posted by starryophonic
I also want to add, if the intention for this or ANY game is to show abuse, gaslighting, or problematic behaviors, that can be incredibly triggering for many players (look how many people were triggered by the new AA kisses who previously did NOT find any of AA's behavior triggering). You can't just throw that stuff in a game without some kind of content warning. The player deserves to know what they're getting into.

THIS +1000

This would be so inappropriate.
This is an audience of adults. Many of us (myself included) have already learned these lessons in real life. We don't not need to be taught. This just reeks of misogyny.

I would never, ever buy a game that wants to teach me what it feels like to be abused. I already know what it feels like. The supposition that an author wants an audience to feel that is frankly really gross. Even novels and movies, you are watching it happen to someone *else*. It's not being put onto the audience. I can't even stress what an overstep and inappropriate thing this would be to do. Writers are not psychiatrists. It is not their place to trigger people just to make them know what it feels like. I have written two works, one published, one not yet, both with the major antagonist being an abuser. Making the audience learn a lesson IS NOT the place of the writer. You can show a story with themes. But this? Problematic, through and through.

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I think this lecture is quite interesting and I appreciate getting to hear the writer's thoughts and perspectives in such deep detail. However while I know that this is an Astarion thread and the focus rightfully should be on Astarion, I do fear that taking this writer's words and applying them ONLY as they might relate to Astarion means missing out on a whole heap of context given that presumably these principles and ideas were also applied to every other romance in the game. I feel things like calling her a "so called artist" and generally decrying her ability and philosophy towards her work isn't going to get much when you're only looking at one example of her work, despite it being the example with probably the most glaring flaw. Which isn't to say that it's the only one with a flaw and every other one is perfect. There are plenty of other problems with other romances, just like there's plenty to love with Ascended Astarion's path.

I also find it interesting that during EA, a lot of people, myself included, were upset because we felt that the game was neglecting a fleshed out good path and was going to be catering more to people who wanted things dark and edgy, including their romances, but now the argument has flipped entirely.

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Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I think this lecture is quite interesting and I appreciate getting to hear the writer's thoughts and perspectives in such deep detail. However while I know that this is an Astarion thread and the focus rightfully should be on Astarion, I do fear that taking this writer's words and applying them ONLY as they might relate to Astarion means missing out on a whole heap of context given that presumably these principles and ideas were also applied to every other romance in the game. I feel things like calling her a "so called artist" and generally decrying her ability and philosophy towards her work isn't going to get much when you're only looking at one example of her work, despite it being the example with probably the most glaring flaw. Which isn't to say that it's the only one with a flaw and every other one is perfect. There are plenty of other problems with other romances, just like there's plenty to love with Ascended Astarion's path.

I also find it interesting that during EA, a lot of people, myself included, were upset because we felt that the game was neglecting a fleshed out good path and was going to be catering more to people who wanted things dark and edgy, including their romances, but now the argument has flipped entirely.

That's a fair point, and why I admitted I hadn't watched the whole thing/read the full transcript. It does sound like they have a section specifically dedicated to Astarion, and specifically said they wanted to "punish" the player, which I don't love and which I found really concerning given the talks of how disturbing and unnatural some of the changes to his romance has seemed. I agree with you that we should refrain from personal attacks.

I disagree with their point on what art is meant to do. That doesn't mean they're not an artist. I consider writing to be a perfectly valid form of art, especially being one myself.

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Just a quick reminder, Welch uses they/them pronouns.

I'm skimming over the forum messages because I find that I agree with a lot of points Welch talked about so I'm not super interested in discussion, but, to clarify a few things I've seen:
The transcriber transcribed it as "no lollies" but they said "no lolis". Lolis (or lolicon) refers to a manga/anime archetype where characters who are or look like underage girls are sexualised. So yeah, it was pretty rational to say there shouldn't be any in a game.

The scene where Astarion sleeps with you in act 2 is pretty well described in the talk, basically you ignore what he's telling you and say you want to sleep with him, you do, and then he breaks up with you once he realises that was a horrible thing for him and that you made that terrible choice. If you have the heart for it and aren't triggered by that topic, it is a great poignant scene. It's very painful but I was in awe at the guts it took to write something like this in a videogame, or rather, a (soon-to-be-done) romance.

I'd also say I find analysing what Welch is saying in this talk to redirect it into AA discourse (which they didn't go into in this talk, at all) to be kind of in bad faith.

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Yes, there is indeed a scene in the game that is mentioned in the interview. It is in the second act regardless of how you got it, through Araj or through killing Orton. And your player can force Astarion into intimacy. The way Astarion looks afterward is tantamount to him sobbing over Cazador's corpse. It's a hard scene. And Astarion breaks up with the player for it.
In my opinion, adding this scene a good decision. Because those players who got into the character and listened to him will never have this scene. And those who are eager to play the sex store or weren't attentive enough to hear Astarion will get an unpleasant surprise.

But I strongly disagree with the following.
The authors talk about the game asking you if you like boys or girls, if you want to try anything in your game that you wouldn't try in real life safely for yourself. But with patch 6, where is that question? Where is the question of whether I, as a player, want to see bdsm content. Ascendent Astarion puts the player on a wagon that has failed brakes and we continue linearly through the "cycle of violence" storyline without any interpretation of his own.

I've never been a read fanfic. I've never been on the forums. And I never even went on YouTube to watch content on the game. But, after patch 6, I became interested in other people's opinions on what they think of the characters, how they see them? How they see the possible continuation of their stories. Because, I felt hurt that I suddenly didn't understand Astarion's true story and was punished with "kisses like that". And thought, am I the only one like that? Or are there others who didn't like it either?

I don't want to see that kind of content in my game. When I put my heart into my character and my love interest, I suddenly get:
a. no spark in the relationship.
b. I've been cheated on.
c. he turns out to be a hidden sadist.
d. some other nasty option.

I won't buy a game like that. I don't want to sit at the screen with a half-played game and say: "How could you do that?". That's enough in real life, and in a game that's supposed to be a refuge from everything that's going on and a solace, I don't want that, sorry. People can have difficult times in their lives when they have no one to talk to, get advice, or at least be alone with themselves, but your pixelated friend from the screen says, "It's okay, you're the best." And it feels good.
But if your pixel friend suddenly starts insulting you, undeservedly and unjustifiably, I don't even know what to say....

And for that matter, now I'd rather read the most tabloid and vanilla fanfic where there's no sadism and insults, or I'll make up my own story while never turning the game on again, than ride the rusty rails of "violence" as a tool of art.

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Originally Posted by jinetemoranco
Just a quick reminder, Welch uses they/them pronouns.

I'm skimming over the talk because I find that I agree with a lot of points Welch talked about so I'm not super interested in discussion, but, to clarify a few things I've seen:
The transcriber transcribed it as "no lollies" but they said "no lolis". Lolis (or lolicon) refers to a manga/anime archetype where characters who are or look like underage girls are sexualised. So yeah, it was pretty rational to say there shouldn't be any in a game.

The scene where Astarion sleeps with you in act 2 is pretty well described in the talk, basically you ignore what he's telling you and say you want to sleep with him, you do, and then he breaks up with you once he realises that was a horrible thing for him and that you made that terrible choice. If you have the heart for it and aren't triggered by that topic, it is a great poignant scene. It's very painful but I was in awe at the guts it took to write something like this in a videogame, or rather, a (soon-to-be-done) romance.

I'd also say I find analysing what Welch is saying in this talk to redirect it into AA discourse (which they didn't go into in this talk, at all) to be kind of in bad faith.

Thanks, I didn't know that. I changed earlier posts to match their pronouns.

I think your last point is fair, but the connection I'm making is the fact that they said they're interested in portraying abuse in a game, and the discourse around AA has largely centered around whether or not he's abusive, and making players who choose the AA path feel bad because they picked the "abuse" path. If they are in the fanfiction scene, there's a non-zero chance they're aware of this discourse and aware of how AA fans are treated and talked about, and I think if that is the case that they are aware, there's a certain amount of responsibility they have to address it now that they've been given this position to actually shape the canon of the story. Plenty of creators will call out bad behavior of their content's fans, and I guess by not addressing it, it makes me feel ways about stuff, like maybe they agree with it. I'm really not trying to approach this in bad faith, but the connection in my brain is, "People are telling me AA is abusive and I'm stupid for liking him > Writer says they are interested in portraying abuse in the game > Does this mean they endorse the idea that AA is abusive?"

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The question is what should be shown: a) abuse or b) fanfiction
These are different things in my opinion. I'm not that well versed in fanfiction, but as far as I know, fanfiction is the continuation of a story that hasn't been shown in a game/movie/book. For example a romance between 2 people (e.g. enemies) that didn't even happen (e.g. Sephiroth + Cloud = love). Most of the time it's about romance and/or sex. Hence Bear fanfiction. For Astarion there would certainly be a lot of sex fanfiction, but when it comes to BDSM or "abuse" sex fanfiction it would be at least partly consensual, that means it would be mostly like "Tav is into it". But that's not shown here at all, Tav is pissed and doesn't want it.
Even if it really came from the fan fiction corner, Larian messed it up or the fanfiction source would reallly be from a deviant sexual sadist corner (I don't think there's much sex fan fiction here (in comparision to consensual sex fanfiction), where the character is r*ped and abused against their will with pissed-off faces, but who knows who got inspiration from where). Another question: Isn't there any bear fanfiction out there where the human is torn to pieces by the bear during the act? Wouldn't THAT make sense?
And if it was wanted to show “Abuse” and to “teach” people something (the question is what, lol, it didn't work out), it’s also nonsense, because 6 months after release, not storywise, and it triggered people to get PTSD Flashbacks. Congratulations. If that (and not fanfiction) was the intention, they would have had to write a whole new story specifically for it and not implement Tav being suffering during kisses, and beside of that, everything is great. Another question: Shoulnd't there be a "teach" for Zoophilia, sleeping with animals? That's immoral. Tav could be torn to pieces by the bear during the act. Well, why not. (Really, I personally allow everyone the fun with the bear, don't misunderstand)
Really, that's so comical, no idea which of the two was the intention, “teaching” or “deviant sexual sadistic fanfiction”, but they messed it up: Most people aren’t into seeing their own Character being sad, suffering and pissed off in a kiss.

Originally Posted by Marielle
I hope that doesn't happen... Is this all really freaking "mainstream" now?
I don't know, not yet, I assume. Well there exists animes, fanfiction and there will always be pedophilia as there is zoophilia and other deviances. I want to add that pedophiles cannot be condemned for their inclinations per se. Only if they act it out in real life is it immoral, and there are pedophiles who are not criminal. It's the same with sexual sadists, who got pleasure in unwilling victims. But in any case, whatever a company wants to have in their game, they shouldn't implement sexual abuse suddenly into a path, where most people are playing, who are not sexual sadists, and get sick seeing this out of the blue. They may create a new path for it, where it's clear, that Tav is suffering or better, the romance partner of Tav is suffering, and sexual sadists (in the case, the company wants to include their fanfiction) and players, who are interested in, can go this path then. The same with pedophilia. Even their Zoophilia is not seen, only for imagination and there is the option to say no and to say, please stay human. (I assume, most people wants to see that scene, because they are curious, and not because they have a paraphilia, but well, whatever)

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I feel things like calling her
Alas. It was not my intention to call "her", and I didn't used any names nor said I "her" when referring to artists. I just analyzed the statement and it's just my opinion about art in general. Everyone has their own opinion about art and what an artist is. And that's my personal opinion. What people call "art" for other people may be "trash", and so on. There are and there were many people who are calling or called themselves or being called by others "artists", even massmurderer (painter) I don't say names, because it's not my intention to discredit anyone. But what I want to say is: Everyone has an opinion. And everyone is free to see it otherwise and have another opinion. Trying to teach people is not Art for me. That's it. The well-disposed reader may have another opinion.


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Originally Posted by Mirmi
Yes, there is indeed a scene in the game that is mentioned in the interview. It is in the second act regardless of how you got it, through Araj or through killing Orton. And your player can force Astarion into intimacy. The way Astarion looks afterward is tantamount to him sobbing over Cazador's corpse. It's a hard scene. And Astarion breaks up with the player for it.
In my opinion, adding this scene a good decision. Because those players who got into the character and listened to him will never have this scene. And those who are eager to play the sex store or weren't attentive enough to hear Astarion will get an unpleasant surprise.

Thanks, I thought that it's probably some of the lines that are impossible to click on, but I don't remember the whole dialog so well, or rather, I remember my lines well, because I repeatedly replayed this scene for the sake of hugs, but there are a lot of lines in this scene and bad lines are more often erased from memory, so if you have a choice, as if you immediately "turn away" from them, so to speak, with a "mental gaze". I'll find it on YouTube and watch this scene.

Yes, this is certainly a good and strong decision. The only thing I think is that Astarion's novel as a whole lacks balance. Lots of strong or not-so-strong heavy scenes that yes, are worth finding on youtube to better expose it, but you still need to know what those scenes are - in some cases it's obvious, like it's clear that there's a variant where Astarion bites Oblodra, some aren't obvious, like this one for example. The beautiful moments are definitely there too, but there aren't many options for " lovingly" roleplaying, some scenes don't have it at all. And not only about the scenes after the Ascension, but also, for example, in the scene where Astarion tries to feel his scars - the first scene in which I got angry with the lines - either something in the style: "Shut up and turn around", or a line in the style: "Well, whatever you want...", which at first seemed to me more respectful of his personal space, but also sounds rather indifferent and cold, and there is no normal line at all. I mean, there are many scenes in the game that I will never see in my own game, or never see at all unless I'm prompted to find that scene on youtube, and compared to that, there seems to be few of any warm, heartfelt scenes that would touch my soul in my own game on each playthrough.

Originally Posted by Mirmi
I've never been a read fanfic. I've never been on the forums. And I never even went on YouTube to watch content on the game. But, after patch 6, I became interested in other people's opinions on what they think of the characters, how they see them? How they see the possible continuation of their stories. Because, I felt hurt that I suddenly didn't understand Astarion's true story and was punished with "kisses like that". And thought, am I the only one like that? Or are there others who didn't like it either?

I first appeared on the forum after my "ordeals" with my knees, after I had already gone through them. On the one hand, I was very indignant and angry about the so-called "good" ending, which I spoilered because of my nerves, and I just wanted to speak out about this "good", because I had never seen such "good" in games before. And I really wanted to share my experience that everything would be fine after the kneeling scene, because I myself at one time only encountered UA opinions on it, which made me much more nervous than this scene could have done, and if I had talked to any of the AA fans before going through this scene, a few days of sleep problems and thrashing around, along with the subsequent doomed desire to go "against the goodness' arbitrary will" into some bad option, wouldn't have happened at all. And I really wanted to tell about it somehow, so that someone who, maybe, just like me, had a hard time with this scene at first, would read it and stop being tormented, to tell them that everything would actually be fine, to share their long-suffering experience, so to speak. With the kissing, besides the first pain I experienced, I also had a very heavy thought for the first time that Astarion is only suitable for someone who likes it, and I am therefore not the right person for him. Or I have to find some "switch" in myself that will make me like it and then I won't lose him. Then my brain finally turned on instead of my emotions, I saw that no one liked it, that it was just a made up example of abuse someone had put into our game. And I really wanted to find out who did it and why. Well, it turned out to be quite possible to find out.

Originally Posted by Mirmi
I don't want to see that kind of content in my game. When I put my heart into my character and my love interest, I suddenly get:
a. no spark in the relationship.
b. I've been cheated on.
c. he turns out to be a hidden sadist.
d. some other nasty option.

I won't buy a game like that. I don't want to sit at the screen with a half-played game and say: "How could you do that?". That's enough in real life, and in a game that's supposed to be a refuge from everything that's going on and a solace, I don't want that, sorry. People can have difficult times in their lives when they have no one to talk to, get advice, or at least be alone with themselves, but your pixelated friend from the screen says, "It's okay, you're the best." And it feels good.
But if your pixel friend suddenly starts insulting you, undeservedly and unjustifiably, I don't even know what to say....

And for that matter, now I'd rather read the most tabloid and vanilla fanfic where there's no sadism and insults, or I'll make up my own story while never turning the game on again, than ride the rusty rails of "violence" as a tool of art.

Exactly. I'd rather do something in real life, even something unpleasant, like a full-fledged general cleaning of the whole apartment, but it would be a result, some practical benefit, not just wasted time. No, I don't consider the time spent with Astarion "wasted", on the contrary, it's very valuable to me. And the fact that it was with him, not some other character in some other game, but it was him that they did it with. Yes, now I know that this happens in games, now I know which author's name should be on my personal blacklist, products with which content I will never buy, but I just want Astarion back. The way he was in patch 5, the rest can still be fixed with headcanons, skip, say out loud real lines, but you can't skip through those kisses. Just not touching him, and that hurts too. So I personally believe (but this is just my opinion) - that those kisses are the "point" in this trashy "abuser" story, precisely because it can't be ignored, corrected in your head, reinterpreted by headcanons. The lion's share of the novel is in the headcanon, in the lines spoken aloud in front of the screen, in the "improved" scenes played out in my fantasies. It took something to "show abuse" in a game, something that would break all your "defenses." When I got into those kisses for the first time, I wasn't even looking at Tav, but into Astarion's eyes, repeatedly repeating the same actions. When talking to him "yourself" in these scenes, it's even worse, in which case his reaction becomes kind of sadistic in a special way. I never did it again, though I did go back into the game later to test and analyze it. So I don't think that one should just dutifully fold arms and accept that someone wants to play with "edgy and unusual" stories. And that their "winning" should be an example of success for those "authors" who want something similar. "When in a player-driven romance have you ever...?" in this case sounds to me like some unlicensed "doctor" showing a youtube video about how to discreetly slip some nasty stuff to a patient called "experimental drug", saying it's a new word in medicine. Yes, the game can't cause physical harm, but emotional harm it can. I will always be against "abusing" and "gaslighting" a player in games.

Originally Posted by starryophonic
I think your last point is fair, but the connection I'm making is the fact that they said they're interested in portraying abuse in a game, and the discourse around AA has largely centered around whether or not he's abusive, and making players who choose the AA path feel bad because they picked the "abuse" path. If they are in the fanfiction scene, there's a non-zero chance they're aware of this discourse and aware of how AA fans are treated and talked about, and I think if that is the case that they are aware, there's a certain amount of responsibility they have to address it now that they've been given this position to actually shape the canon of the story. Plenty of creators will call out bad behavior of their content's fans, and I guess by not addressing it, it makes me feel ways about stuff, like maybe they agree with it. I'm really not trying to approach this in bad faith, but the connection in my brain is, "People are telling me AA is abusive and I'm stupid for liking him > Writer says they are interested in portraying abuse in the game > Does this mean they endorse the idea that AA is abusive?"

Of course, no one will talk about the AA romance directly, it's too "edgy", it should be "swept under the rug". But it does apply to Astarion. Is there any other character who has been made a tool to show "how a partner becomes abusive"? At least, I think that if an author wants to show abuse, such an author should write a separate character for that, on their own, "from scratch". Specifically "for that." To show all their "flags" and "bells" as they want and as they like, so that players who fall in love with a completely different character conceived by another author don't get such a shock in the game. Development Consistency. Because, otherwise, it's not only spoiling and distorting another author's creation, it's also the truest deception.


One life, one love - until the world falls down.
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