I chewed on somewhat similar romances that I could recommend because of similarities to Astarion yesterday in my sleep, as they might help someone.
Interesting, your list has pretty much all of my gaming romances on it! Daeran, Fenris, Zevran. Only Tristian from Pathfinder: Kingmaker is missing. But he's a kind character, even too kind - so much so that it makes him seem ill-equipped for life. Although the world of Pathfinder is not as cruel as the world of BG3, but still, it feels like if you don't take care of Tristian, if you don't take him "under your shield", then someone is bound to trick him, use him, and everything may not end well. It's not that he looks like Astarion; Astarion is much better at navigating the reality around him than Tristian. But there is vulnerability, and touching, and a certain fragility in Tristian... It has its own heavy backstory with exile and captivity, the novel is heartwarming, with dramatic moments. It's more likely to be recommended to those who like UA and fantasize about a kind and gentle Astarion. A bit similar, but without all the torment, burning, having to manipulate him into staying a spawn, and stuff like that. Tristian is a really kind and gentle character with a difficult past who you can help, who will love you and care for you, and you can have a wonderful happy ending "together forever" with the good option of gaining immortality for you, and Tristian is already immortal due to his angelic nature.
Iron Bull is really ugly. Dragon Age Inquisition tried to make the companions as unattractive as possible. I was interested only in Dorian, just because of his intelligence and sarcasm, and when I found out his orientation, it was the last straw, after which I quit the game. I could, of course, start over and choose a male Tav, but unfortunately I couldn't recommend Dragon Age Inquisition to anyone to play through primarily because of the quality of the game itself. The gameplay and combat is reminiscent of an MMO, the gameplay is boring. The level of marysue, of how much everyone marvels at Tav, is just off the charts, the game looks very unrealistic because of it. I don't see a problem with companions having a specific sexual orientation and if the game itself was good, I'd replay and change my gender. Although, I think in that case it would be nice to introduce some sort of option to change Tav's gender in the game itself so as not to force a spoiler-free player to start the game over again.
Daeran I thought was the best romance until I met Astarion. I think Daeran and Astarion could very well be friends if they met in the same world. Daeran has a great sense of humor too, and his lines and reasoning are interesting. The way he ironizes and overthrows any "authority", mocking both the good and the evil, certainly makes his character very appealing. Daeran NE, he has a very interesting personal quest, you can safely fulfill his quest, kill an innocent character in his plot (though only one), Daeran, in general, can also be considered dangerous to the world (to say why would be too fat spoiler), but nothing will happen to you for it. There will only be interesting dialog and a strengthening of the bond between you. Daeran can be sexualized all you want, he'll be all for it, and he's always willing. Although he is initially a polyamorous character and will bring sex workers directly to camp and have fun with them, when you start a relationship, unless you offer the option to "add a third", which is possible in the game, Daeran himself will not do it. He will choose you over everyone else. This is a great example of how to do romance well with an "evil" character, and how to give the possibility of polyamorous relationships in the game, while not imposing anything on monogamous players.
Zevran at one time had me restarting and going through the game all over again to avoid breaking up with Alistair. He shows up pretty late, so if you don't know about him beforehand, you can start a relationship with someone else before that. But the game is good and it's not hard to do, it's better than hurting Alistair and watching a relationship breakup scene.
Fenris does have something in common with Astarion. He too is a "trust no one" kind of guy, his trust has to be earned. Playing a mage in this case is especially interesting, he hates mages for obvious reasons, and the story of a mage trying to warm his heart and show him that they deserve his trust is a very good one.
Yeah, and none of these romances are going to make you feel bad. No one will teach you. But still, Astarion - in himself, as a person, as a character, his love, for me became much dearer than all other, albeit wonderful, romantic companions. No one else could evoke such feelings as he did. And if I could "take him and move him to another game", like BG2, that would be happiness, but it's impossible. I don't think anyone can replace him for me, unfortunately, at least at this stage of life. Although old romances are nice to remember, starting some other one now is like getting into a new relationship if you love someone else. Better to have no romances at all.
But I realized that you have a completely different approach to romance, you look at it as a story, a separate story, not your personal story, not for the sake of the romance itself. I get the opposite, I maybe even get too "immersed", and I love Astarion, I want to be with him, and I want him to be happy. That's why we have such different attitudes towards this story.
Originally Posted by Zayir
What's inappropriate is, to dictate players how they should feel or play. There are consequences in RPGs, but no punishment of players. Such a system is not appropriated . And wouldn't work.
As we could see in the evil run, which has less content than a good run. Players (whether they are morally good or bad) who decide to make an evil run and let their tav take over at the end, besides of having less quests during their journey, will get a more or less bad ending (in the sense of, not so well done in comparision to other endings, very short). Funny but even Astarion complained about you, what you have done, right after encouraging you. So there are people who think, making evil choices in BG3 punishes the player (if it's true or not I don't judge here), because there is less content = less hours, and shorter endings.
A quick side note: When announcing the new evil endings, some people suggested in the discord channel: Don't improve the evil endings! If players choose the bad/evil ending, they should (!) feel bad (!) about it! (They = real players.)
Did the "evil run" or evil ending with less content, teach the players, who chose it, anything? Did they rethink their lives? Or how they like to roleplay in a game? Well. No, of course not. It's impossible to force people or dictate them how they should "feel" or play, you can surpress them, you can blame them, kinkshame, but you cannot form them to your will. You cannot force people to dislike things or the opposite to like things, or change their personalities. Or tastes. You can only surpress them and make them angry on you. A method of teaching and punishment in an RPG is more than dubios. You find such things in some other systems.
In an RPG people play different characters, whatever they play, it's not of the business of others. There should be consequences in the story, but never punishment.
I wasn't dictating anything and I don't like being ascribed that,
No, and I didn't mean this. There also was a reason why i put ---------- between. It was not on you, but on the topic of patch 6, and on the topic of one of the Larian writer and their views. People don't like to be teached in a game. I added, that I don't mean you. Hope it is clear now.
Originally Posted by jinetemoranco
We don't know if Larian's going to change anything, and at best I'm pretty sure they will only somewhat change the kisses, and a lot of people will still be unsatisfied with aspects of the romance. I think it's more helpful to suggest things people might enjoy if they feel let down, rather than just wait indefinitely for something that, seeing how Larian has been talking about BG3, is just 95% not coming
I agree, that's fair. I hope so, because I don't like changes in the story or Astarion's personality.
"I would, thank God, watch the universe perish without shedding a tear."
I think you hit upon something interesting here. It seems safe to say that Ascencion is *intended* to be Astarion's evil outcome, the way that being loyal to Vlaakith is Lae'zel's and becoming a dark justiciar is Shadowheart's. It could be a thing where the writer's felt that this path (which involves participating in a literally hellish ritual) was self-evidently evil enough that they forgot to show the fullness of why. Personally I think his full going over into evil is also obvious based on who he was and wanted to be before, given how he basically says at multiple points that he thinks having power gives you the right to abuse it, but that's just me. It can easily be argued that the game broadcasts Astarion's evilness post-ascencion without actually getting opportunities to show it. It's tougher to do that when he's still under the control of the player as part of his party, but he also demonstrated that left to himself he'd be evil anyway so it can depend on the viewer. I think that Wyll suffers the same fate but to a worse degree because there wasn't even any pre-establishment based on his character beforehand. There's a weird vibe around his politician outcome at points as if that's meant to be his evil ending, with the game seeming to assume Wyll's motives are entirely different to what he's shown at any point. Probably in part a consequence of the rewrites.
Not 100% related to the thread, but I feel like I stumbled into Wyll's "evil ending" almost by accident. I chose to have him break his pact with Mizora because a contract with a demon seemed like an objectively evil thing, and unlike Astarion, Wyll obviously cares about being a good person so I thought, sure, have him not be bound to a demon anymore. If breaking the pact had insta-killed his dad, maybe I would have seen it as a bad ending, but all that really happened was Mizora messed with us when we did go to rescue his dad (since we were in the neighborhood anyway, saving the other prisoners), so...how is that the evil ending? I think it speaks a lot to how underdeveloped Wyll's material is.
With regards to the ritual being objectively evil, it speaks to something else that I think about a lot regarding the anti-AA crowd. There seems to be this idea that unless you're deliberately playing an evil playthrough, then any decisions you make in the game reflect your values in real life, and that you should strive to make good and moral decisions. They talk about helping break this cycle of abuse/violence, helping Astarion see the good in himself. But the question I never see asked is, is it good and moral to have Astarion in your camp in the first place? Regardless of your shared problem, is it the good choice to have someone in your camp who's prone to biting people, who approves of slavery and genocide under certain circumstances, who generally loathes any purely heroic figures and acts? Who repeatedly expresses gleeful interest in screwing over the only family he's had for two centuries in order to complete this ritual? Forget the fact that he can ultimately not go through with it; the fact that he seriously wants to would be a sign that you're traveling with a bad guy.
It's just interesting to me that the question is always, "How can I fix Astarion?" and not, "Should I even have Astarion in my camp?"
That's a very good point. I think that a lot of people have an inherent discomfort around the evil path of a game, since evil paths are by their nature negative, and they see the results of those paths as negative and undesireable. If you consider that the people commenting on Astarion and people's ascencion playthroughs care for his character as much as you guys do, then I think it does logically follow that they're sensitive to what they see as his being "harmed" in other people's playthroughs. That's a silly feeling for people to act on, but I think it does explain things. I've seen posters here have some pretty intense feelings about how bad it is for Astarion to be left as a spawn, so imagining the opposite being the case doesn't feel like a stretch to me.
As for the matter of people not questioning if travelling with Astarion is morally okay to begin with, again I'll start by saying many of those people love Astarion as much as the AA fans, and likely have a lot of the same rationales as to why it's fine travelling with him. Speaking as someone who honestly does not like Astarion as a character, I can also think of plenty of reasons why travelling with him isn't a morally complex situation. Firstly and very importantly in my opinion, for all his evil beliefs,it's been 200 years since he had the agency to actually do anything evil that he could be morally held culpable for. Secondly, it can be rationalized pretty easily that by bringing him along, you're actually keeping him on a leash preventing him from doing harm on his own. You're keeping him close so if he crosses a line you can in fact kill him before he causes too much harm. And thirdly, you can always say that the situation is grave enough that working with someone who's alll talk, no action evil can be justified. Not a great position, but an arguable one. You're right though that the question isn't grappled with often.
That's a very good point. I think that a lot of people have an inherent discomfort around the evil path of a game, since evil paths are by their nature negative, and they see the results of those paths as negative and undesireable. If you consider that the people commenting on Astarion and people's ascencion playthroughs care for his character as much as you guys do, then I think it does logically follow that they're sensitive to what they see as his being "harmed" in other people's playthroughs. That's a silly feeling for people to act on, but I think it does explain things. I've seen posters here have some pretty intense feelings about how bad it is for Astarion to be left as a spawn, so imagining the opposite being the case doesn't feel like a stretch to me.
What I kind of want to know is do they also judge people for playing a game like GTA, where there really is no way to play it morally? I'm not sure if I agree that it's logical that they'd be sensitive to people harming Astarion, since it doesn't affect the version of Astarion in their game at all.
I can't speak to others on this thread, but I don't personally think it's immoral to leave Astarion as a spawn, and I don't begrudge anyone doing it in their game. What I have a big problem with is people judging me and other players for choosing ascension, implying that there's something wrong with us, and that's why I don't hesitate to show ways the logic could swing both ways. It's not to say, "Actually you're the wrong one," but rather to show how silly it is to judge how anyone plays a game that doesn't affect them at all. I came to this forum because my social media algorithm was positively stuffed with content that decried not just AA, but the people who chose that path. And since that path ended up feeling so meaningful to me personally, yeah, you can bet I'm going to wax poetic about it in a forum where I've been given sanctuary to do so.
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
As for the matter of people not questioning if travelling with Astarion is morally okay to begin with, again I'll start by saying many of those people love Astarion as much as the AA fans, and likely have a lot of the same rationales as to why it's fine travelling with him. Speaking as someone who honestly does not like Astarion as a character, I can also think of plenty of reasons why travelling with him isn't a morally complex situation. Firstly and very importantly in my opinion, for all his evil beliefs,it's been 200 years since he had the agency to actually do anything evil that he could be morally held culpable for. Secondly, it can be rationalized pretty easily that by bringing him along, you're actually keeping him on a leash preventing him from doing harm on his own. You're keeping him close so if he crosses a line you can in fact kill him before he causes too much harm. And thirdly, you can always say that the situation is grave enough that working with someone who's alll talk, no action evil can be justified. Not a great position, but an arguable one. You're right though that the question isn't grappled with often.
Ah, but is it moral to decide you're going to be the arbiter of what a thinking, sentient being can do by "keeping him on a leash?" Like he's a dog? I only ask because it's something I've thought about too, but it's mostly meant rhetorically. That's part of why I love this character. Pretty much everything you do with him raises very interesting moral questions.
That's a very good point. I think that a lot of people have an inherent discomfort around the evil path of a game, since evil paths are by their nature negative, and they see the results of those paths as negative and undesireable. If you consider that the people commenting on Astarion and people's ascencion playthroughs care for his character as much as you guys do, then I think it does logically follow that they're sensitive to what they see as his being "harmed" in other people's playthroughs. That's a silly feeling for people to act on, but I think it does explain things. I've seen posters here have some pretty intense feelings about how bad it is for Astarion to be left as a spawn, so imagining the opposite being the case doesn't feel like a stretch to me.
What I kind of want to know is do they also judge people for playing a game like GTA, where there really is no way to play it morally? I'm not sure if I agree that it's logical that they'd be sensitive to people harming Astarion, since it doesn't affect the version of Astarion in their game at all.
I can't speak to others on this thread, but I don't personally think it's immoral to leave Astarion as a spawn, and I don't begrudge anyone doing it in their game. What I have a big problem with is people judging me and other players for choosing ascension, implying that there's something wrong with us, and that's why I don't hesitate to show ways the logic could swing both ways. It's not to say, "Actually you're the wrong one," but rather to show how silly it is to judge how anyone plays a game that doesn't affect them at all. I came to this forum because my social media algorithm was positively stuffed with content that decried not just AA, but the people who chose that path. And since that path ended up feeling so meaningful to me personally, yeah, you can bet I'm going to wax poetic about it in a forum where I've been given sanctuary to do so.
The thing is, I don't think it's fundamentally an issue of morality. I think it's an issue of them feeling that by going the ascencion route you're giving him his bad ending and thus harming him, and they're decrying you for that. But because they lack the self-awareness or possibly the vocabulary to put it in those terms, or because they want to make an argument that gives them moral high ground, a lot of them put their argument in terms of broader morality. They're still wrong to attack other players though.
The thing is, I don't think it's fundamentally an issue of morality. I think it's an issue of them feeling that by going the ascencion route you're giving him his bad ending and thus harming him, and they're decrying you for that. But because they lack the self-awareness or possibly the vocabulary to put it in those terms, or because they want to make an argument that gives them moral high ground, a lot of them put their argument in terms of broader morality. They're still wrong to attack other players though.
In what ways is Astarion harmed in the path of Ascension? Let's review:
1. Hunger. Astarion suffers from vampire hunger, of course, while traveling with the player he gets much better - he can drink the blood of living creatures in battle, Tav can feed Astarion his blood (although some "moral" persons do not allow him to drink the blood of living creatures, giving the answer to the question: "Who is really Cazador 2.0"). But, even with the ability to drink the blood of enemies, these torments don't completely go away. Only after the ritual is Astarion freed from this feeling: "I... I can't feel it. That ache in my stomach, that hunger - it's gone".
2. Sun. Astarion is very fond of the sun. Recall how eagerly he welcomes the dawn in the scene after his first night with it. You can call me as evil and immoral a person as you want (I personally don't take offense to this, it's important to me that Larian doesn't ruin the game, the assessment of outsiders has never bothered me), but honestly, I'll step on the throat of any "good" with my boot, spit on my own notions of "pride" if I have to, but I won't let it be taken away from him. The important thing is that in the "good" ending, it is this sun that burns him, practically kills him, and the mocking remarks of the companions mock that very thing. It looks like a symbol of rejection, of how the "good world of good people" treats the "wrong" person, the "freak" who, as you have previously pointed out, can only be "kept on a leash". In the Ascended finale, everything is fine - Astarion is happy, in high spirits, he feels completely free (since the larva is also now gone). What discomfort from the evil path? I was happy as a baby on that evil path!
3. Strength vs. Weakness. Astarion gets a power and develops it pretty quickly. At the party, he already knows how to turn into an adorable bat! Here, I don't even think it's worth spelling out how much better it is to be a powerful Ascended Vampire who can defend himself than a vulnerable brat with many limitations.
4. Love. Ascended Astarion has a man who is willing to give him everything. Astarion is in great need of love, and he becomes strongly attached to the only person he has, Tav. Because of his inner pain due to his trauma, Astarion cannot feel at ease in normal relationships, they are too unstable for him. He doesn't like himself, unfortunately, and when he gets confirmation of the connection, when Tav becomes his spawn and is definitely not going anywhere anymore, Astarion feels much calmer. I think if instead there had been some sort of "eternal bonding" ritual for the two where, "he who chooses to betray will die", without some sort of master control, Astarion would have agreed to that too. The ritual Astarion rejected expects Tav to abandon him, he doesn't trust them completely, he says so in the epilogue, and I think that if Tav stays with him (and Tav acts pretty condescending towards him in this scene), he still won't trust.
5. Emotions. Ascended Astarion finally stops the theatrics and acts the way he wants to act. UA adjusts to those around him, says what they want to hear from him. Even the tone of his voice is different. Astarion's laughter - the way the Ascended Astarion laughs! And, I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think UA laughs at all. Look at his face, at his tears after refusing the ritual, or better yet, watch frame by frame, stopping the video at every frame, and then do the same with the Ascension video. Where does he feel good and where does he feel bad?
Honestly, if someone can consistently argue to me why I'm doing Astarion a disservice by helping him ascend and prove it to me, I'll eat an aspen stake. About morality - okay, I'm evil and immoral, so what's next? Does the victim's facial expressions have anything to do with my immorality? Lack of roleplay and plot rails how does relate to my immorality? Even if one proves to me that I'm a bad person, one does not prove to me that this story is well written.
In what ways is Astarion harmed in the path of Ascension? Let's review:
1. Hunger. Astarion suffers from vampire hunger, of course, while traveling with the player he gets much better - he can drink the blood of living creatures in battle, Tav can feed Astarion his blood (although some "moral" persons do not allow him to drink the blood of living creatures, giving the answer to the question: "Who is really Cazador 2.0"). But, even with the ability to drink the blood of enemies, these torments don't completely go away. Only after the ritual is Astarion freed from this feeling: "I... I can't feel it. That ache in my stomach, that hunger - it's gone".
2. Sun. Astarion is very fond of the sun. Recall how eagerly he welcomes the dawn in the scene after his first night with it. You can call me as evil and immoral a person as you want (I personally don't take offense to this, it's important to me that Larian doesn't ruin the game, the assessment of outsiders has never bothered me), but honestly, I'll step on the throat of any "good" with my boot, spit on my own notions of "pride" if I have to, but I won't let it be taken away from him. The important thing is that in the "good" ending, it is this sun that burns him, practically kills him, and the mocking remarks of the companions mock that very thing. It looks like a symbol of rejection, of how the "good world of good people" treats the "wrong" person, the "freak" who, as you have previously pointed out, can only be "kept on a leash". In the Ascended finale, everything is fine - Astarion is happy, in high spirits, he feels completely free (since the larva is also now gone). What discomfort from the evil path? I was happy as a baby on that evil path!
3. Strength vs. Weakness. Astarion gets a power and develops it pretty quickly. At the party, he already knows how to turn into an adorable bat! Here, I don't even think it's worth spelling out how much better it is to be a powerful Ascended Vampire who can defend himself than a vulnerable brat with many limitations.
4. Love. Ascended Astarion has a man who is willing to give him everything. Astarion is in great need of love, and he becomes strongly attached to the only person he has, Tav. Because of his inner pain due to his trauma, Astarion cannot feel at ease in normal relationships, they are too unstable for him. He doesn't like himself, unfortunately, and when he gets confirmation of the connection, when Tav becomes his spawn and is definitely not going anywhere anymore, Astarion feels much calmer. I think if instead there had been some sort of "eternal bonding" ritual for the two where, "he who chooses to betray will die", without some sort of master control, Astarion would have agreed to that too. The ritual Astarion rejected expects Tav to abandon him, he doesn't trust them completely, he says so in the epilogue, and I think that if Tav stays with him (and Tav acts pretty condescending towards him in this scene), he still won't trust.
5. Emotions. Ascended Astarion finally stops the theatrics and acts the way he wants to act. UA adjusts to those around him, says what they want to hear from him. Even the tone of his voice is different. Astarion's laughter - the way the Ascended Astarion laughs! And, I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think UA laughs at all. Look at his face, at his tears after refusing the ritual, or better yet, watch frame by frame, stopping the video at every frame, and then do the same with the Ascension video. Where does he feel good and where does he feel bad?
Honestly, if someone can consistently argue to me why I'm doing Astarion a disservice by helping him ascend and prove it to me, I'll eat an aspen stake. About morality - okay, I'm evil and immoral, so what's next? Does the victim's facial expressions have anything to do with my immorality? Lack of roleplay and plot rails how does relate to my immorality? Even if one proves to me that I'm a bad person, one does not prove to me that this story is well written.
The thing is, I don't think it's fundamentally an issue of morality. I think it's an issue of them feeling that by going the ascencion route you're giving him his bad ending and thus harming him, and they're decrying you for that. But because they lack the self-awareness or possibly the vocabulary to put it in those terms, or because they want to make an argument that gives them moral high ground, a lot of them put their argument in terms of broader morality. They're still wrong to attack other players though.
In what ways is Astarion harmed in the path of Ascension? Let's review:
1. Hunger. Astarion suffers from vampire hunger, of course, while traveling with the player he gets much better - he can drink the blood of living creatures in battle, Tav can feed Astarion his blood (although some "moral" persons do not allow him to drink the blood of living creatures, giving the answer to the question: "Who is really Cazador 2.0"). But, even with the ability to drink the blood of enemies, these torments don't completely go away. Only after the ritual is Astarion freed from this feeling: "I... I can't feel it. That ache in my stomach, that hunger - it's gone".
2. Sun. Astarion is very fond of the sun. Recall how eagerly he welcomes the dawn in the scene after his first night with it. You can call me as evil and immoral a person as you want (I personally don't take offense to this, it's important to me that Larian doesn't ruin the game, the assessment of outsiders has never bothered me), but honestly, I'll step on the throat of any "good" with my boot, spit on my own notions of "pride" if I have to, but I won't let it be taken away from him. The important thing is that in the "good" ending, it is this sun that burns him, practically kills him, and the mocking remarks of the companions mock that very thing. It looks like a symbol of rejection, of how the "good world of good people" treats the "wrong" person, the "freak" who, as you have previously pointed out, can only be "kept on a leash". In the Ascended finale, everything is fine - Astarion is happy, in high spirits, he feels completely free (since the larva is also now gone). What discomfort from the evil path? I was happy as a baby on that evil path!
3. Strength vs. Weakness. Astarion gets a power and develops it pretty quickly. At the party, he already knows how to turn into an adorable bat! Here, I don't even think it's worth spelling out how much better it is to be a powerful Ascended Vampire who can defend himself than a vulnerable brat with many limitations.
4. Love. Ascended Astarion has a man who is willing to give him everything. Astarion is in great need of love, and he becomes strongly attached to the only person he has, Tav. Because of his inner pain due to his trauma, Astarion cannot feel at ease in normal relationships, they are too unstable for him. He doesn't like himself, unfortunately, and when he gets confirmation of the connection, when Tav becomes his spawn and is definitely not going anywhere anymore, Astarion feels much calmer. I think if instead there had been some sort of "eternal bonding" ritual for the two where, "he who chooses to betray will die", without some sort of master control, Astarion would have agreed to that too. The ritual Astarion rejected expects Tav to abandon him, he doesn't trust them completely, he says so in the epilogue, and I think that if Tav stays with him (and Tav acts pretty condescending towards him in this scene), he still won't trust.
5. Emotions. Ascended Astarion finally stops the theatrics and acts the way he wants to act. UA adjusts to those around him, says what they want to hear from him. Even the tone of his voice is different. Astarion's laughter - the way the Ascended Astarion laughs! And, I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think UA laughs at all. Look at his face, at his tears after refusing the ritual, or better yet, watch frame by frame, stopping the video at every frame, and then do the same with the Ascension video. Where does he feel good and where does he feel bad?
Honestly, if someone can consistently argue to me why I'm doing Astarion a disservice by helping him ascend and prove it to me, I'll eat an aspen stake. About morality - okay, I'm evil and immoral, so what's next? Does the victim's facial expressions have anything to do with my immorality? Lack of roleplay and plot rails how does relate to my immorality? Even if one proves to me that I'm a bad person, one does not prove to me that this story is well written.
You're talking to the wrong person if you want the fullest answer to that. To me I think the main argument would be that going down this path means he's always going to be in a cycle of never being satisfied with the power he has and always seeking out more power for the sake of never being vulnerable to anything (because there's always a bigger fish, a group of high level adventurers, a devil or demon or angel, etc that could threaten him). But I recognize that argument isn't the strongest. As I've said, I honestly don't like Astarion and I've never even completed this game, so talk to a reasonable Spawn Astarion fan who is opposed to the Ascension route but isn't going to be mean and ill-behaved towards you (they definitely exist, I have no doubt of this) and get their opinion if you're interested. Because again, I have no doubt that they love Astarion just as much as you have, and can write just as much about him as you have.
I, too, hesitate to think of ways ASTARION specifically is harmed by the ritual, besides, "vibes." People decry that their sweet man is gone, but I saw a great Reddit comment that pointed out, if you've already been indulging his whims, agreeing with him, or at least not arguing with him that he needs to be a better person, then his personality won't seem to change at all. So, how is he harmed? I see no evidence that he regrets the ritual in the slightest, that it didn't give him everything he wanted. The only hint of regret I see is if he loses Tav/is never partnered in the first place; he definitely seems lonelier. But that to me doesn't mean he feels the ritual was a mistake, or that it hurt him in any way.
Given that, I'm going to say something that maybe will sound a little unkind to those who are vehemently for the UA path: In my opinion, any harm caused by the ritual is not to Astarion, but to the player who fell in love with the softer, funnier side of Astarion now has to contend with the idea that a lot of that may have been part of the performance; maybe deep down, he's not the sweet pookie they fell in love with. They have to prevent him from ascending, because they have to believe that deep down, he's a good person who secretly wants to do good things, despite the fact that there's really no evidence for it. Even in the face of the "7k" spawn he's making dismissive excuses for the part he played in their fate. Astarion is evil. He has always been evil. I don't think becoming a spawn and enduring torture made him evil. I think that's a completely separate thing.
And the only reason I say this is precisely because so many of them lash out at AA fans and tell us we made the wrong choice. I have seen this on so many corners of the internet, again and again, the same talking points. Coming onto any pro-AA post to "well actually" completely unprovoked, even ones that don't even mention the spawn path, they're just, "here's a cool video of AA saying AA things" or something like that. Any intense reactions like that usually stem from somewhere, and if they can psychoanalyze us, I can do the same to them and say, I think they're projecting their insecurities about the path they chose. I think they realized that both paths for Astarion release some darker version of himself (either the darker version who gets everything he wants, or the darker version who will always wonder what could have been, and maybe seek out another way to get it), but they have to believe that they made the "right" choice (spoiler: there is no right choice because it's not a win/lose game), so they have to tear down the AA path as much as possible.
To me I think the main argument would be that going down this path means he's always going to be in a cycle of never being satisfied with the power he has and always seeking out more power for the sake of never being vulnerable to anything (because there's always a bigger fish, a group of high level adventurers, a devil or demon or angel, etc that could threaten him). But I recognize that argument isn't the strongest.
Although you say it isn't the strongest argument, I think the text in the game agrees with you about this, honestly! It seems to be part of AA's characterisation, and it's super fascinating and interesting to me. I'm going to go into a bit of a tangent here, so I hope it's still also interesting to you even if you don't like Astarion:
The strongest indication that points towards what you're saying is this devnote: https://imgur.com/a/op0EWKa
The rest, I think, is puzzled together through the setup of Cazador's palace and by the full picture the contrast between the two routes paints.
Cazador's palace introduces us to the very deliberate story of how Cazador used to be in Astarion's place under a cruel Lord (who, in turn, also used to be a spawn, etc etc), but through a ritual gained power and access to hedonism and riches. It still wasn't enough for him though, as seen with his pursue of Ascendancy and slavery of other individuals. Where this gets interesting for me is when you kill Cazador without Astarion and use Detect Thoughts on him, which gives way to one of my favorite monologues in the game:
"These deathless dreams hold memories of a mortal life once-forgotten. Of the boy I was, the man I became, the monster that will not end. I sleep, but cannot rest. I live, but cannot die. I am eternal, and I grieve."
I think what's noteworthy here is that none of his grievances here would actually be solved by the Ascendancy he seeks, unless it does something to his sleep, which doesn't seem to be the point here tbh. These grievances seem to rather be the product of this mindset he's gained after everything he's gone through, and his life has become rather empty and meaningless in turn. He is in a way trapped by what's happened to him, and has to cope however he can manage to. This exploration of his psyche, given the other quite deliberate moments where we're informed this is something that keeps happening and the parallels between Cazador and Astarion, seems to be foreshadowing the mindset AA will eventually be in.
Now, as for the contrast in routes: There are a bunch of interesting things here, for me. While the Spawn route already pieces all this together by what he says about, amongst other things, the "cycle of power and terror", this is a point of contention that's quite often debated so I'm not going to talk extensively about it, though I will plainly state I think the narrative isn't trying to trick anyone here and he's being sincere, I feel like the story's informing you of it's themes and arcs here quite unsubtly (to my dislike, honestly). The two things that come to mind (it's a shame I'm not in my A game right now because I /know/ I have more examples I can't recall right now that I'd love to talk about but I'm quite sleepy!) is the contrast between the routes regarding what happens to Cazador's palace and a couple things in the epilogue.
So, AA lives in Cazador's palace, now his, I suppose. It's a very literal way of expressing he's stuck in a traumatic place. He's routinely walking the rooms where he used to be whipped, tortured, sexually and psychologically abused, etc etc. And this is where he chooses to live. That's fascinating to me. Meanwhile, Spawn burns it to the ground, which is pretty straightforward in how these two routes inform each other.
In regards to the epilogue, AA talks about being lonely (which is another aspect of what I think the ritual does psychologically to him, in how it reinforces his view of trusting no one and having to be on top. Idk if I'm reaching with this one but I also think that here, the previous tadpole dialogue where we're informed his worst fear is "Complete solitude, being voiceless" and similar but less specific cues that he longs for understanding and company are a very cool thing to consider) but, most interestingly to me, he remarks how he's not even out in the sun much, because he'd rather be scheming in the palace. So, despite everything, he's not even truly enjoying arguably the most important boon the ritual gave him, because he'd rather be doing some classic paranoid power-hungry vampire lord stuff. What this means is that either 1. He was lying from the get-go (maybe even to himself) and didn't truly care about the sun that much or 2. What this whole ritual endeavor has meant for him has severely changed his priorities so that specific flavor of freedom he initially sought is kind of secondary now to powerplays in the dark, again, in the palace where he was a slave for 200 years. That kind of pattern, I think, leads to bitterness. Basically, AA lives hedonistically, but psychologically, I don't really think he's happy, besides surface, sensory pleasure. I'd go more into this but I think I'd go even further into my-opinion-territory which is bound to arise some debate and I don't really want to discuss those all that much.
Finally, since I've been growing increasingly anxious about discussing this stuff here, I'm going to ask people to either engage in good faith or not at all. I'm super passionate about (further) corruption arcs and tragedies/tragic characters, so to me AA is very interesting and I wanted to engage with someone who holds a similar opinion here. I don't seek to convince anyone or change their minds, just to talk to a likeminded person on the thread, so feel free to ignore if this is the opposite of how you view AA.
I know it was a while back, but accessing this forum has been difficult recently. I'd just like to make a point regarding the interview with Mx Welch when they said this about romance in games.
Quote
This is the feature which can shape a teenager's entire perspective on how human relationships work
This game is 18+. Most of the fans I come into contact with are in their mid-twenties to mid-thirties. So I think it is fair to assume that most of the people playing will be adults with a fair bit of life experience. Personally, I really hope she is wrong about shaping someone's entire perspective, because I don't feel a game should even try to do that. I think relationship counselling for young teenagers is something best done by parents and professionals.
Depicting abuse in a game in the hope that kids will see it and learn the lesson you want them to, is I think, a little optimistic. They might look at it, see their character shows signs of distress when the abuser goes on a power-trip but also see that the abuser is rewarded by getting exactly what they want and in the context of BG3 that the Player Character may not be able to break up with them and has to endure it. Is that teaching people that abuse is bad in a relationship or is it suggesting that abuse is a way of getting your own needs and desires met without having to consider your partner's wishes or feelings?
It was interesting that Mx Welch talks about the degree of immersion people get with games and there I do agree with them, because that was the problem for me with Patch 6, I was totally immersed and suddenly my character was taken over and shoved down a route I really didn't choose. That loss of agency was a big issue to me as a player.
I agree with Marielle that there is little evidence that Astarion is harmed by the ritual, he gets exactly what he wanted all along, as far as I can see.
Starryophonic I completely agree with your analysis here:
Quote
the player who fell in love with the softer, funnier side of Astarion now has to contend with the idea that a lot of that may have been part of the performance; maybe deep down, he's not the sweet pookie they fell in love with. They have to prevent him from ascending, because they have to believe that deep down, he's a good person who secretly wants to do good things, despite the fact that there's really no evidence for it.
So, AA lives in Cazador's palace, now his, I suppose. It's a very literal way of expressing he's stuck in a traumatic place. He's routinely walking the rooms where he used to be whipped, tortured, sexually and psychologically abused, etc etc. And this is where he chooses to live. That's fascinating to me. Meanwhile, Spawn burns it to the ground, which is pretty straightforward in how these two routes inform each other.
In regards to the epilogue, AA talks about being lonely (which is another aspect of what I think the ritual does psychologically to him, in how it reinforces his view of trusting no one and having to be on top. Idk if I'm reaching with this one but I also think that here, the previous tadpole dialogue where we're informed his worst fear is "Complete solitude, being voiceless" and similar but less specific cues that he longs for understanding and company are a very cool thing to consider) but, most interestingly to me, he remarks how he's not even out in the sun much, because he'd rather be scheming in the palace. So, despite everything, he's not even truly enjoying arguably the most important boon the ritual gave him, because he'd rather be doing some classic paranoid power-hungry vampire lord stuff. What this means is that either 1. He was lying from the get-go (maybe even to himself) and didn't truly care about the sun that much or 2. What this whole ritual endeavor has meant for him has severely changed his priorities so that specific flavor of freedom he initially sought is kind of secondary now to powerplays in the dark, again, in the palace where he was a slave for 200 years. That kind of pattern, I think, leads to bitterness. Basically, AA lives hedonistically, but psychologically, I don't really think he's happy, besides surface, sensory pleasure. I'd go more into this but I think I'd go even further into my-opinion-territory which is bound to arise some debate and I don't really want to discuss those all that much.
I may have more to say later once I've mulled it over, but one thing I want to point out here. AA is only "doomed" to live in his palace and be lonely if he's not partnered. A spawn Tav can suggest they don't stay in Baldur's Gate and instead travel, to which he gleefully agrees (I didn't choose that because after years of traveling as a ranger, my Tav was wanting to settle down, but I've seen the clip and I think he's pretty much happy with whatever option Tav chooses; they read as equally enthusiastic reactions to me).
I also think it's significant that the narrator states that the ballroom (and I would assume the entire castle) has been renovated, and is being used to throw lavish parties. I don't think living in the castle is in itself a sign that he's in a bad place. I think *how* he lives in the castle provides more insight into his mindset. In real life, it's not uncommon to see places which hold bad memories for people (either individuals or communities) destroyed, but it's also not uncommon to see them repurposed and reclaimed as part of a healing process. Astarion doesn't brood by himself in his palace, at least not with Tav. He remakes it to his liking, reclaims it, and uses it as a place of joy. I don't get the impression that Cazador threw many parties, after all.
Also, a partnered Astarion in the epilogue reads to me as much more confident and happy than a non-partnered one. His line reads in the unpartnered dialogs sound very much to me like he's overcompensating and putting on a show of happiness. Whereas when I spoke to him as a partnered Tav in the epilogue, I got to say to him, "It's wonderful. I'm glad I get to share this with you" (referring to attending the party with him), to which he responds, verbatim, "And I am blessed to share it with you, my love. I may have power, but it would be nothing without you. You complete me." I know Astarion's sincerity is open to interpretation at pretty much any point in the game, but I don't read any insincerity here because quite frankly, at this point he has no need for it. If he's unhappy with Tav, he can just say so, and he does if they challenge him.
So to me, the message that I took from the end of AA's story is that the ritual doesn't save him. The love and devotion of his partner completes him, and Tav has enormous power in that circumstance to shape his future. I get the impression that the unascended path is similar. Whether that's a healthy theme is debatable. I don't like stories where it's one character's job to "fix" another, but I also know the power of love and the motivations it can provide can be powerful under the right circumstances.
It's super telling to me that literally directly after ascension, Astarion focuses heavily on him and Tav as a force together. "We did it." "Everything will be ours." His mindset immediately shifts to the idea that he needs this person. Does he do some questionable things to keep them? Absolutely. It doesn't feel like an accident to me that he doesn't seem to drop the manipulative act ("That's what you want, isn't it?") until Tav is securely his. But if Tav is along for the ride, he shows no sign to me that he will be anything other than a devoted partner. After all, the morning after turning, what does he do? Gleefully boast that Tav is all his now, muahaha evil laugh? Nope, he says, "You are so beautiful. And you will be beautiful forever. Thank you for trusting me."
I also think it's significant that the narrator states that the ballroom (and I would assume the entire castle) has been renovated, and is being used to throw lavish parties. I don't think living in the castle is in itself a sign that he's in a bad place. I think *how* he lives in the castle provides more insight into his mindset. In real life, it's not uncommon to see places which hold bad memories for people (either individuals or communities) destroyed, but it's also not uncommon to see them repurposed and reclaimed as part of a healing process. Astarion doesn't brood by himself in his palace, at least not with Tav. He remakes it to his liking, reclaims it, and uses it as a place of joy. I don't get the impression that Cazador threw many parties, after all.
I think on the other points we just fundamentally disagree so I don't think we'd reach an "accord" so to speak, but here I thought I'd like to explain that, amongst the (all valid) ways you can choose to analyse media, in my case I prefer to conceive Astarion as a character that's part of a story that's trying to say something (and thus, he is a tool for it). While it's true that /real/ people can very much reclaim places, I try not to apply real person logic/1:1 psychology to characters, opting for more, say, "poetic" readings, I suppose. The way the contrast between what he does in each route is set up and the lack of exploration of him reclaiming the palace (and by this I don't mean the mention of renovations but exploring the concept of what it'd be like character-wise for him to reclaim something like that) reads more to me as commentary on him not moving on, and the renovations, which I found to be expected, don't really change my perspective on it, if anything it makes it more poetic/narratively meaningful like I said earlier. It'd be, I guess, "the same thing with a new coat of paint".
I also think it's significant that the narrator states that the ballroom (and I would assume the entire castle) has been renovated, and is being used to throw lavish parties. I don't think living in the castle is in itself a sign that he's in a bad place. I think *how* he lives in the castle provides more insight into his mindset. In real life, it's not uncommon to see places which hold bad memories for people (either individuals or communities) destroyed, but it's also not uncommon to see them repurposed and reclaimed as part of a healing process. Astarion doesn't brood by himself in his palace, at least not with Tav. He remakes it to his liking, reclaims it, and uses it as a place of joy. I don't get the impression that Cazador threw many parties, after all.
I think on the other points we just fundamentally disagree so I don't think we'd reach an "accord" so to speak, but here I thought I'd like to explain that, amongst the (all valid) ways you can choose to analyse media, in my case I prefer to conceive Astarion as a character that's part of a story that's trying to say something (and thus, he is a tool for it). While it's true that /real/ people can very much reclaim places, I try not to apply real person logic/1:1 psychology to characters, opting for more, say, "poetic" readings, I suppose. The way the contrast between what he does in each route is set up and the lack of exploration of him reclaiming the palace (and by this I don't mean the mention of renovations but exploring the concept of what it'd be like character-wise for him to reclaim something like that) reads more to me as commentary on him not moving on, and the renovations, which I found to be expected, don't really change my perspective on it, if anything it makes it more poetic/narratively meaningful like I said earlier. It'd be, I guess, "the same thing with a new coat of paint".
To me, the fact that it's not a requirement that an ascended Astarion even stays in the palace, makes the argument that the staying in the castle is symbolic that the ritual made him unable to move on from Cazador hold fundamentally less water.
I agree that you can't always ascribe what happens in real life to what happens in a fantasy game, but I'll point out that there are plenty of stories where renovating a space holds symbolic meaning for a character's moving on, just as there are stories where destroying that space does the same thing. So it's not just a real life thing to me.
We can definitely agree to disagree on this and any other point. I don't know what you're looking for in terms of a good faith discussion, but hopefully this falls in that category.
We can definitely agree to disagree on this and any other point. I don't know what you're looking for in terms of a good faith discussion, but hopefully this falls in that category.
Oh, don't worry, you're definitely engaging in good faith! This is completely on me. I think on my end I just find the debate about whether or not AA is happy/a good ending/etc to be tiring for me by now, even if all participants are constructively engaging. I've come to realise that we're all just going to maintain our points of view so these conversations end up being circular. I mean, I know on my end I'm very convinced of my views and consider them quite watertight, and I expect most people on this forum to feel the same about theirs, different as they may be, so I don't think trying to debate what the "real" narrative is is productive in the end. I don't think that's what you were doing here, but I hope I got my point across about why it stresses me out a bit. I just much prefer doing observations/analysis since that's where I'm at my most passionate and nerding out about how much I enjoy chewing on certain narratives, defending why my viewpoints are I suppose "right" doesn't spark that same joy hahah.
We can definitely agree to disagree on this and any other point. I don't know what you're looking for in terms of a good faith discussion, but hopefully this falls in that category.
Oh, don't worry, you're definitely engaging in good faith! This is completely on me. I think on my end I just find the debate about whether or not AA is happy/a good ending/etc to be tiring for me by now, even if all participants are constructively engaging. I've come to realise that we're all just going to maintain our points of view so these conversations end up being circular. I mean, I know on my end I'm very convinced of my views and consider them quite watertight, and I expect most people on this forum to feel the same about theirs, different as they may be, so I don't think trying to debate what the "real" narrative is is productive in the end. I don't think that's what you were doing here, but I hope I got my point across about why it stresses me out a bit. I just much prefer doing observations/analysis since that's where I'm at my most passionate and nerding out about how much I enjoy chewing on certain narratives, defending why my viewpoints are I suppose "right" doesn't spark that same joy hahah.
Yes, the conversation can get quite circular, but I still enjoy it. This is an open forum, but obviously this thread in particular is covering a specific topic in a different way. I can say I'm not here to have my views changed, but rather to further my knowledge of the topic and read further analysis of it. It's helped me understand WHY I feel the way I do about this path, why it's stuck with me so much and means so much to me at this juncture in my life.
I enjoy analyzing media. Being able to show examples from the game of why I believe what I believe about Astarion and BG3 taps into a nerdy love for me I haven't really gotten to do since grad school. I hope it brings you the same joy. I definitely am not here to not have fun; I don't have the luxury of near-unlimited free time anymore, and I don't intend to spend what little I have being unhappy on the internet.
I, too, hesitate to think of ways ASTARION specifically is harmed by the ritual, besides, "vibes." People decry that their sweet man is gone, but I saw a great Reddit comment that pointed out, if you've already been indulging his whims, agreeing with him, or at least not arguing with him that he needs to be a better person, then his personality won't seem to change at all. So, how is he harmed?
There is one interesting point to the answer to your question:
«It was important to us to portray sex as more than a trophy for complying with a companion's quest line. In Baldur’s Gate 3, you are encouraged to navigate your relationship – to argue with your partner and challenge their way of thinking. After all, if you just go along with whatever they want to do, you may find yourself sacrificed in an evil god's sex rite, turned into a vampire, or – worst of all, warns Senior Origin Narrative Designer Baudelaire Welch – you might even end up getting married.»
That is, you are explicitly encouraged to argue with your partner and challenge his way of thinking. And if, heaven forbid, you love him and agree with him, then terrible things will happen to you - you will become a vampire and (oh, the horror!) may even get married. Again the parallel - we are told that Tav is now wearing a "collar", and people who actively oppose the institution of marriage as such call a wedding ring a "collar". And: "Aeterna Amantes. Lovers forever, until the world falls down." Sounds like a marriage vow: "Till Death Do Us Part." So what is the "evil of the game" - a D/s relationship or marriage? If you don't argue with your partner, you will end up married to him? And if you do argue, you're good and no one will marry you?
Originally Posted by starryophonic
And the only reason I say this is precisely because so many of them lash out at AA fans and tell us we made the wrong choice. I have seen this on so many corners of the internet, again and again, the same talking points. Coming onto any pro-AA post to "well actually" completely unprovoked, even ones that don't even mention the spawn path, they're just, "here's a cool video of AA saying AA things" or something like that. Any intense reactions like that usually stem from somewhere, and if they can psychoanalyze us, I can do the same to them and say, I think they're projecting their insecurities about the path they chose. I think they realized that both paths for Astarion release some darker version of himself (either the darker version who gets everything he wants, or the darker version who will always wonder what could have been, and maybe seek out another way to get it), but they have to believe that they made the "right" choice (spoiler: there is no right choice because it's not a win/lose game), so they have to tear down the AA path as much as possible.
That's how I see it, too. Astarion hasn't " fixed" himself, he's laying low. Of course he'll be looking for a new opportunity, and he'll probably do his best to make sure he doesn't miss it this time. Perhaps that's why the game doesn't have a real good ending - an option to heal from vampirism. After all, if there was such an option - it would have been much easier to sell that path as a good one. I, myself, probably would have bought it earlier, and tried to heal him exactly. But it's unknown how Astarion would have behaved in that case. Maybe in this case, when Tav would have stopped being of use to him, he would have said something that would have also shattered the ''cute boy'' image. Maybe he didn't want any healing, but wanted the Ascension.
Originally Posted by jinetemoranco
"These deathless dreams hold memories of a mortal life once-forgotten. Of the boy I was, the man I became, the monster that will not end. I sleep, but cannot rest. I live, but cannot die. I am eternal, and I grieve."
I think what's noteworthy here is that none of his grievances here would actually be solved by the Ascendancy he seeks, unless it does something to his sleep, which doesn't seem to be the point here tbh. These grievances seem to rather be the product of this mindset he's gained after everything he's gone through, and his life has become rather empty and meaningless in turn. He is in a way trapped by what's happened to him, and has to cope however he can manage to. This exploration of his psyche, given the other quite deliberate moments where we're informed this is something that keeps happening and the parallels between Cazador and Astarion, seems to be foreshadowing the mindset AA will eventually be in.
I think Cazador is a broken, deformed person, a "manufactured psychopath" who has had "rules" hammered into him by years of being on the stake. He wasn't that way originally - Veliot broke him. But he was broken before the ritual. Astarion is not broken, Rooney even talked about how he wanted to show Astarion as "unbroken". He has remained himself, unlike Cazador, yes he has an injury, but he has remained himself.
Originally Posted by jinetemoranco
So, AA lives in Cazador's palace, now his, I suppose. It's a very literal way of expressing he's stuck in a traumatic place. He's routinely walking the rooms where he used to be whipped, tortured, sexually and psychologically abused, etc etc. And this is where he chooses to live. That's fascinating to me. Meanwhile, Spawn burns it to the ground, which is pretty straightforward in how these two routes inform each other.
Astarion happily agrees to travel with Tav, and maybe even stay somewhere, if he likes it, for two hundred years. I honestly see Cazador's palace as a trophy. A victor's trophy. When you've completely, truly, destroyed your enemy and tormentor and taken everything that belonged to him, you can have completely different, new associations with it, even if it was formerly a place of torture. But you proved stronger than your tormentor, you destroyed him, erased him, even the purpose of his life became your trophy. The palace can be a very different place for AA than it is for UA. This feeling has ancient roots - when grudges were washed away with blood. But it still means something, including to a person's psyche. Plus, you can always make repairs, or indeed drag Astarion away to travel and live somewhere else if Tav notices he's having a hard time here. (a bit of headcanon )
Originally Posted by jinetemoranco
In regards to the epilogue, AA talks about being lonely (which is another aspect of what I think the ritual does psychologically to him, in how it reinforces his view of trusting no one and having to be on top. Idk if I'm reaching with this one but I also think that here, the previous tadpole dialogue where we're informed his worst fear is "Complete solitude, being voiceless" and similar but less specific cues that he longs for understanding and company are a very cool thing to consider) but, most interestingly to me, he remarks how he's not even out in the sun much, because he'd rather be scheming in the palace. So, despite everything, he's not even truly enjoying arguably the most important boon the ritual gave him, because he'd rather be doing some classic paranoid power-hungry vampire lord stuff. What this means is that either 1. He was lying from the get-go (maybe even to himself) and didn't truly care about the sun that much or 2. What this whole ritual endeavor has meant for him has severely changed his priorities so that specific flavor of freedom he initially sought is kind of secondary now to powerplays in the dark, again, in the palace where he was a slave for 200 years. That kind of pattern, I think, leads to bitterness. Basically, AA lives hedonistically, but psychologically, I don't really think he's happy, besides surface, sensory pleasure. I'd go more into this but I think I'd go even further into my-opinion-territory which is bound to arise some debate and I don't really want to discuss those all that much.
The question then is, is Astarion happy without the ritual? Honestly, I don't see it at all. Even just by feel, by the empathy conveyed through facial expressions, tone of voice, gestures... It's interesting to compare Astarion in the two versions frame by frame, and in the epilogue too. If you look closely at him properly. It seems to me that after the Ascension, Astarion seems to suppress his vulnerable part, he seems to ignore it, he shows only confidence and fearlessness. The vulnerability only shows up in one moment when he looks at Tav, letting them go off to socialize with the others at the party. But it's much worse with UA... Such traumas don't go away so quickly, and even just because Astarion got the power doesn't mean it became a "magic button", I don't think you should hope that you can do something at once and all the things he's been through will be erased, it doesn't work that way. That's also why I dislike the rail plot so much, it doesn't give you the opportunity to show love to Astarion, because he needs it. But I also don't see the ritual as a "magic pill" that solves everything. I just see logically justifiable facts that clearly show me why he chose this path. And the "perfect" option simply does not exist, in my opinion.
P.S. There is a separate video of the lecture on the Nordic Game channel. I can't change the video in the original post, as the time for possible editing of the post has passed, so I'll post it here in case someone hasn't watched it yet. Now you can watch and, if you want, comment on the video instead of searching for it among the recording of the whole broadcast.
«After all, if you just go along with whatever they want to do, you may find yourself sacrificed in an evil god's sex rite, turned into a vampire, or – worst of all, warns Senior Origin Narrative Designer Baudelaire Welch – you might even end up getting married.»
If "becoming a vampire" or "sacrificing yourself" is clear, then getting married is an evil ending? I'm sorry, what? We're talking about Will and his acorn proposal and it's an evil ending? And the path of Orpheus or the Emperor, which one is evil? What's Carlach's path evil?
Just, why then try, and make new cutscenes for evil endings, if, we add controversial situations so you in the game learn something, and the +18 game happens to be for teenagers. Then what should teens learn from watching Durge walk under a red sun? Oh, well come on.
As for Mirajay, as has been said before. This isn't the first time I've come across a review that says it's done much better than what AA was trying to show. (If that's what AA was trying to show). Apparently, when writing this character's route, the authors were more into it or consulted the right people rather than D/S fanfics, as many players are noting for themselves a pleasant experience. I personally haven't played the game, but given that many people are noting this character, I think it's worth a try).
I've been thinking...How about this thought: If we do an infernal ritual with AA, 7000 souls go to Hell to Mephistoftl. Astarion gets the power. But if we don't do the ritual, then there are 2 ways: either we kill the spawns or let them go to the dungeon. In both cases, Mephistophilus doesn't get 7000 souls. And want to say that the devil is sitting in his chair, looking at how some bums with worms in their heads got into his treaty (and in some cases still killed his son Raphael) and he said: "okay, I forgive you"? Looking from this point of view, the life of Tav and Astarion can be extremely short. This is to the question of finding a cure for the sun, or finding a means of immortality for Tav..... But this about what happens after the finale, you can probably argue endlessly. It's in the mind, everyone has a different one.
I've been thinking...How about this thought: If we do an infernal ritual with AA, 7000 souls go to Hell to Mephistoftl. Astarion gets the power. But if we don't do the ritual, then there are 2 ways: either we kill the spawns or let them go to the dungeon. In both cases, Mephistophilus doesn't get 7000 souls. And you want to say that the devil is sitting in his chair, looking at how some bums with worms in their heads got into his treaty (and in some cases, even though not the most beloved, but still killed his son Raphael) and he said: "okay, I forgive you. Looking from this point of view, the life of Tav and Astarion can be extremely short. This is to the question of finding a cure for the sun, or finding a means of immortality for Tav..... But this about what happens after the finale, you can probably argue endlessly. It's in the mind, everyone has a different one.
What I find interesting is that no one knows for sure what happens to those souls if they don't die in the ritual. People have their guesses, and some seem quite sure of them, but the truth is if it's not in the game or any official materials, we can't know for certain. Plenty have said, "they go wherever they would anyway," but others have pointed out that in DnD canon lore, apparently vampire spawn go to Mephistopheles regardless, so the only thing that changes is that he gets them a little later and no one gets the powers, if the ritual isn't performed. This ambiguity I think does a big disservice to this overall story. If my headcanon is that the souls are doomed no matter what, why should I care that they can die in service of giving my boyfriend magic powers?
Here, I don't even think it's worth spelling out how much better it is to be a powerful Ascended Vampire who can defend himself than a vulnerable brat with many limitations.
