Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Well, if the spavn's end up ending up at Mephistopheles anyway, then I don't see a moral dilemma with getting the power at all...
And I apparently haven't learned anything, since every pass the spavens are sent to their destination...

I haven't seen anything canon regarding Vampire Spawn souls' afterlife, and couldn't find anything on them going to Mephis. I don't think they would unless they got turned into soul coins or something. My best guess, since the deities hate undead and probably won't claim them, is that they get added to the Wall of the Faithless, but I think that Wall was retconned, so they probably just walk the Fugue Plane eternally. Maybe go to the City of the Dead. Not a nice afterlife, but Karlach (if she dies) gets the same one according to Withers. Faerunian Afterlives suck really bad and I hate how the lore works here.

I don't think any kinkshaming is inteded by a game, though I can understand why it might feel this way with a self-insert Tav - I use that term without prejudice and simply because I can't think of a better word atm. If you look at the game more in terms of conveying a narrative, the companions start out as heavily molded by their previous environments, this is present in their general behaviour and believes as well as their sexual preferences. Shadowheart rejects close relationships because Shar doesn't approve, Gale is into hyper complex Weave tantra because he sees his only value in his mind, Astarion projects hypersexuality because this was his life until now, Lae needs to add domination and pain because that's what her culture is all about.

As you develop your friendship and romances with the characters, you can see a glimpse of something different that is not shaped by the characters' previous environments: Shadowheart yearns for a caring environment, enjoys nature and wants to reunite with her past; Gale does like the dirty earthly sensations quite a bit when being able to explore them with a loving partner; Astarion does not want to be treated as a tool and might not even care about sex at all (there's different nuances to all his three dialogues Araj, Araj-firendly, Yurgir); and Lae allows more than domination to enter her mind and (at least if you loose the duel) decides she does not like to see her partner in real pain.

If you leave your companions/partners on their original paths, their original believes intensify; if you delve more into the side of them that strengthens the bond of friendship and love, the new things they discovered about themselves become more relevant.

Again, I can understand how this might feel like kinkshaming, if something you enjoy is related to a character's unresolved path, but otoh there are plenty of kinky things in the resolved versions too that are not set up to make you feel bad about them. I might be wrong, but I think Shart is the only one who does enjoy the orgy at the brothel - but she does want to have her special night with the PC before; the power-play in Lae'zel's act 1 scene is in no way portrayed negatively; Gale's appreciation of the PC's unwashed odour and that he gets turned on by being in mortal peril with his beloved are both part of his "good" path. Astarion, finally, I personally find it refreshing to have a character who might not really care about sex too much. This might not be a kink, but it is still something I feel is not socially accepted.


The funny thing is, I think this is both true and that it was horribly executed in Astarion's case. I just did Astarion's romance again after spending time with Gale and while I think that conflict as a way to deepen the relationship was done brilliantly in Gale's case, for Astarion it often runs down to arguing for the sake of arguing, without being able to carry a position you have held in one conversation over into the next. For example when crossing into Act 3, you have a conversation about the ritual with him. Along with the more hesitant answers, you can fully approve of doing the ritual or agree to do more research. When entering Rivington proper, you again talk about finding his siblings with him but now all your dialogue options are hesitant bordering on fearful.

I didn't find anything about that. If it were so simple, Cazi could just made spawns and kill them immediately, until the 7000 are full. The fact, there is this ritual would suggest, that this isn't the case - at least not in BG3 universe.
So basically you condemn those spawns to hell on top of having to kill the whole Gur tribe, which often seems to be forgotten by people. The Gur are innocents too, so not matter what, letting Astarion ascend is the evil solution.
Which is ok, if you want to roleplay that, Yi just want it acknowledged.

I kill Gur in the village, when we refuse to help them, and they attack us, mind you, simply for refusing to help.
After that, of course, no one comes to Cazador Castle.

They are still innocents. Of course they get mad, especially if Astarion is with you. He is the one, who kidnapped their children for Cazador.

So, which part of them is innocent? Hired killers for money who kill "problems" for whomever they deem to be unworthy to live. That is who the Gur are.

The Gur were never innocent. They were monster hunters and didn't ask questions about whether or not if you were in fact a monster who did something outside its nature.

Did Astarion want to do what his master bidded? Did he have a choice? They KNOW Astarion did not have the option to refuse Cazador's orders.

In my opinion, they are rude and judgmental for their OWN reasons & beliefs. If you do not want to help them with their war, you become another "problem" and attack us for their own judgemental beliefs.

So since we did not participate in their beliefs and were rude going about their asking, the Gur simply attacked the party and we simply defended ourselves.

Goblins may not be the most pleasant creatures on Fairun, but for some reason no one worries about clearing their camp, even though they didn't do anything to Tav's and his company. And the colony of intelligent mushrooms. And the Dwegars. No one cries about the cobolts in the temple. About the Manger (if they are destroyed) a little swearing Laezel and Orpheus, if he has time to speak out - that's it. Before the final battle, you can cut out all the Moon Towers and no one says a word.
That's my point, within the framework of events, the Gur tribe seems like something insignificant against this backdrop. And they approve of simply killing spavens, but killing in a ritual does not.

I'm assuming the ritual does send souls to the Mephestofil, whereas a simple kill sends them to the Fugu/Wall/City of the Dead. There's at least a logical dilemma and a "sinister devil contract". But then, there are creatures like:
1. Baatezu. Within the Fugu Plan, they hide in small enclaves. By agreement with Kelemvor, god of the dead, they cannot harm or deceive waiting souls. However, the devils are allowed to explain to the souls that they are dead and awaiting the arrival of a divine messenger who will take them to the realm of their deity. At this point, the devils attempt to make a deal with the souls.Baatez needs the souls, which they can use to create lemurs (a lower species of devils), which after a time will transform into more powerful devils in the service of the Nine Circles of Hell.
2. Tanar'ri. While the lawful Baatezu have a contract with Kelemvor that allows them to acquire souls, the chaotic Tanar'ri use a different method: they steal them. From time to time, the demon ruler creates a portal between Abyss and Plan Fugu. Many of the demons' cronies break through the opening, scratching holes in the wall of the Unbelievers, freeing some of the doomed and returning to Abyss. The demons raid the city on such occasions, collecting as many souls as they can before retreating.

So one way or another, some of the poor souls will still end up in Hell. Maybe not in service to Meph, but still.
But all this information can be obtained not from the game, but by reading the wiki. So it's not clear what the Larians have screwed up with the Ascension, what it is and what it's eaten with.

Back on topic, I rather liked the ambiguity the game left, and that you could interpret this or that in your own way. But here's this statement by the authors about dividing the paths into bad and good, about companions needing to be reinterpreted, makes the game worse in my opinion. It turns out that Tav, all Merry Sue, knows best how and who to live, and no one dares to say a word against and express their opinion.
- 200 years of torture? - No, you're a cute little puppy and you're just confused. (No, no, spawn don't bite, ew, bad.)
- Save your father or break the contract, Tav decides.
- Your parents sent you to the wolves in the woods, but that's a rite of passage, and Sharia law is ba ba ba.
- I don't remember how long Vlaakit ruled, but let's do a coup d'etat, because you're very harsh on the Gith. This is all sarcasm.

Asesdent - this is what Astarion wants for himself. Like Laezel to change his idol. Like Shadowheart to change deity. Why is it that while in Laezel and Shadowheart plan, if they aren't persuaded, they choose the right path, in Astarion's this is a bad way?
Maybe for him, his dark side is just as good for him...even if to the detriment of others.

OK, I see the denial is strong again. Gur are foremost tribes of wandering people, similar to the Sinti and Roma in our world. They have their own culture and customs and are not evil in DnD lore ( unlike vampires, I might add).
The Gur in the game have all the reason in the world to hate Astarion,since he stole their children. But they listen to reason and even team up with him to bring down Cazador. Of course, they have a problem with Astarion sacrificing their children to an archdevil ( and please educate yourself about what it means, becoming an enslaved soul to Mephistopheles, he is notorious for his magical experiments - and we are talking children here), it means, their souls are lost and condemned for eternal torture.
If you like AA , great, but please don't alter facts to clear your conscience. The Gur in the game did nothing wrong.

The goblins attack others. They start it. If you enter the camp, they are eating a dwarf and torturing an adventurer. Still I make a point in only killing those, I need and never harm the children.
I don't kill the mushroom colony, they are nice and welcoming to me. I would argue, that killing them for that other monarch is the evil route.
I don't kill all the duergar either, but again, they are starting it and they are evil slavers.
Comparing the goblins and the duergar slavers with the Gur is kind of pointless, because it's not the same. The Gur have a reason to hate Astarion, they don't have the knowledge about him,we have, but they know, he took their children. And still they are willing to forgive him, if he brings their children back, even as spawns.

Every soul lands on the Fugue plane, from there, they move on to the domains of their gods, to devils they made a deal with or stay at the plane ( there was them wall of the faithless, but I think, that's not a thing anymore). And there, the children and other spawn have at least a chance to move on to better places. Gur worship Selune normally, so I'm positive,she would take those children in.

My point was to correct a few things said here, no one needs to defend their love/ appreciation for AA. If you like that route, do it, I was merely pointing out, that it entails killing innocents. If you say "I don't care" , then you do you. Minthara fans used to kill the tieflings for her. Emperor fans doom Orpheus. Raphael fans probably leave Hope to be tortured. It's your game and I just pointed out some things.

It is a video game and it is fantasy. The Gur were rude to Astarion and my PARTY, I do not care who they are or what they believe. They were rude, they attacked. I defended myself and my PARTY. Whether that is right or wrong is whatever I decide in MY game. Your thoughts on Ascension, do not simply exist in MY game. Your headcanon is NOT my headcanon. Therefore, your opinion and your game are YOUR business. Do not lecture others on YOUR headcanon. PERIOD.

No one is innocent in BG3. That is my OPINION. Including those who think they are heroes...they have just as much blood on their hands in their game as I do in my game.

So...as far as the Ascension... I personally do not think it is his BAD ending. It is a possible path where he gets to live in the sun without the issues of vampirism, which is what he wants. I have absolutely no problem with that. Cazador is dead, the 7000 spawn that Cazador created are dead, they were bound for the Fugue Plane anyway. If Meph wants them, then that is the deal that Astarion completed anyway. He is a new monster, the Vampire Ascendant, in the BG3 universe and all is fine for Baulder's Gate currently, now it is time to destroy the brain or maybe enslave it this time. The bad ending for Astarion for me is more of the one where he does end soulless as a zombie in Cazador's ritual.

All vampires, whether they are spawn, true vampires, or vampire ascendants fall within the "evil" alignment, so that does NOT bother me. I love the individual in the game and either path is a valid choice as long as he lives and he is happy with the one he trusts.

The Gur were rude, they attacked, they died. They are not innocent, in my opinion.

I ... didn't tell you my headcanon, I just stated DnD facts. I don't need you to justify AA to me, but since one of my pen & paper characters is a Gur, I feel the need to set some facts straight, nothing more, nothing less.
I don't have a problem with you not bothering about killing 7000 innocents and a whole tribe of people and think,your last post is the most honest, I have read from you - I simply don't care is actually a really ok argument, better than trying to justify the events. As I said, if you want to play evil - knock yourself out.

You are not pushing facts...you said they were innocent. They are not. D&D facts are that the GUR are monster killers and they do so for hire. The headcanon that you are pushing is the innocent part. That is my point.

About vampire souls - there is a problem with sourcing information directly from the net. But from what is available in open sources, you can find information confirming that "the devil is not so terrible". More specifically, that the deal with Mephistopheles is not so ruinous for Astarion. In fact, it's just a "contract for a future employee of a hellish corporation". Worse than living free on Faerûn in his castle, but hardly worse than ending up with Mephistopheles as a common spawn who blew his chances, or hanging around forever on the Fugue Plan (another version of where vampire souls go).

Mephistopheles, The Vampire God.

«In the OG vampire novel, Dracula had sold his soul to the devil at some point, in exchange for a terrible kind of immortality that comes at the expense of the living. Vampires follow a rigid set of rules (cannot enter houses, cannot cross moving water, must count small things, etcetera); it seems perfectly fitting to me that vampires are the servants of Mephistopheles.

Now, Vampirism is still possible to spread via bite. Here, we follow WoD rules; each generation removed from an OG vampire loses some amount of power. Vampires who made original pacts with Mephistopheles are near-god like in terms of power; they are fearsome beings, enslaved directly by Mephistopheles for his dark bidding.

Mephistopheles does not entertain requests for vampirism often. For a mortal to even come to his attention as a candidate for vampirism, they must be quite powerful, unfettered to any other deity, and an exceptionally cruel person. (It takes an especially selfish and violent soul to entertain the idea of blood sacrifice to sustain themselves).

An original vampire is largely free to their own will, but must obey Mephistopheles, if he calls them to work. Mephistopheles does not allow his vampires any loopholes on killing. The “hunger” a vampire feels is less about a drive to find sustenance, and more about a compulsion to make sacrifices to their Dark Lord.»

About rigid rules - Mephistopheles is "the god of lawyers and contracts".

«Mephistopheles is possibly the most lawful being in existence. Mephistopheles hates those who would lie, and for him to commit a lie would violate a deep aspect of his own nature. If Mephistopheles commits to something, it can be counted on to be done.»

A mortal can become a vampire by making a deal with Mephistopheles, bypassing the conversion process, without the involvement of another vampire. This, too, would require a blood sacrifice. Note: "vampire is free to their own will", they are obliged to obey only when Mephistopheles calls them to work, i.e. gives them some kind of task, a quest to fulfill. It is impossible to refuse. But there is no change of identity. How is this different from Will and Mizora? If Astarion "loses his soul and becomes evil" after the ritual, we would then have to be introduced to a very evil Will, who would also lose his soul by making a deal with Mizora. It would be very convenient for the devils if anyone who made a deal with them would lose their soul right away, and would do evil right and left of their own free will. There would be no need for any punishments, no rewards, no incentives for the contract worker to perform well. Especially since Astarion speaks of Mephistopheles having no power over him. Accordingly, as long as Astarion is alive (and we'll do our best to keep this going "Until the world falls down"), he won't even get any "work" from Mephistopheles.

??? ??????: Making Deals with Devils in D&D 5e:

«Arcane Knowledge: Mephistopheles

The reclusive Arch-Devil Mephistopheles is in charge of creating new arcane weapons on the armor of the Devil army. He deals exclusively with the brightest mages who can add his endeavors in the afterlife.

Mephistopheles can open mages’ minds to possibilities never before conceived, or give them access to incredible power. But a deal with him almost always means spending eternity as an assistant to his insane experiments.»

Deals exclusively with bright magicians. An assistant in his insane experiments. Yes, the need to work is pure evil (many of us are forced to endure this evil on a 5/2 schedule or some other schedule), but it is not "hellish torment". It is not the same as burning in a fire or melting in a cauldron. It's not a Christian hell, it's the quite ordinary, down-to-earth harsh reality of working for the boss of a large corporation. Maybe you can get weekends and vacations somehow, too, who knows?

All in all, it's a bit like someone being offered immortality whereby they can still be killed, and if they do get killed, they have to take a job forever afterward. That's bad. But there's no telling when that will be... And what better fate will Astarion, who refused the ritual, have if he's killed? Besides, even if AA and Tav die, Tav will surely be able to follow him to hell, I don't see how it makes sense for Mephistopheles to deny them. I mean, even death won't separate them, they'll go to work in a hellish corporation together. And what will Tav do with UA in case of death? If death of both, they will go to the domain of their deity, and never see Astarion again. In the case of Astarion's death, they will probably cry and humble themselves, as one who prioritizes the laws of gods and men should.

On the subject of freed spawn - Vampire spawn

«When acting of their own free will a vampire spawn were often known to garner other undead as soldiers, such as ghouls and wights, or bodyguards, such as mummies or mohrgs.»

Of course, some will be obedient boys, some will be killed, and some... Surely, among these 7000 (still a big number) there will be some smart guys who will not follow anyone, but will run away. I would do that too if I were them. Some will be able to organize their gangs, command the other undead, maybe even raise an army. I certainly sympathize with these possible future tactical geniuses and conquerors, but the world is cruel, alas, and Astarion is obviously more precious to me.

The same goes for the Gur - whether they are guilty or innocent, the world is cruel, the reality is so. Every day in the world of Faerûn many living beings die, and no one asks whether they are guilty or not. You just have to try not to be in their shoes and protect your loved ones. The Gur go to their Gur gods, they don't seem to have any problems with souls. And if they have, it's their problem, not Astarion's.


That's right. The idea of "bad" and "good" paths for companions is presented, that they have to learn something. Only they all choose their "good" paths themselves perfectly well, and without violence from Tav, and are happy with it. Well, Will doesn't choose, but he's also ultimately happy with everything, if you untie him from Mizora and save his father. Only Astarion is "a cute little puppy and just confused". Only he needs to be argued with, manipulated, "helped" to stay a spawn forever. I'm not going to force anyone to rethink anything. I love Astarion, not the rules of this world. And if you want to give "plot consequences", my enemy should be representatives of your "good world", not Astarion himself. And if you want to teach me how to "properly build relationships" - go to Mephistopheles... Along with all the souls. And the "lowest score" for refusal to "learn relationships" in the form of mocking kisses - it shows the extremely low qualification of the teacher. And "get out of class," like, that's it, yay, you can't play this game anymore - same thing.

I didn't mean that I kill everyone and it's a good way and you play wrong, no, but that in case of killing, no one cries for them (goblins, kobolts, mushrooms, dougars, fish people, etc).
I.e., Tav is in any case, a killer (the same goblins become hostile, if we killing their leaders), it is impossible to pass without killing anyone.
I compared them all and the Goors, since for the Tav campaign, this is it's as the same group of people/obstacle as the others.
I was talking about it.

They are guilty before those whom they called "monsters" and for whom they were paid money. And we "monsters" are guilty before them. And the fact is, it's the same as always, " who wins is good".

The Gur in the game are innocents until proven otherwise and no " They were rude to my boy" is not a reason to kill them.
The children were innocent, Sebastian was innocent - fact is, you have to kill a lot of people, that basically did nothing to you ( but maybe being rude, I never managed that btw)

Gur are not considered evil in DnD lore, vampires are. Elves are not considered evil, halflings aren't. And yes, you might meet an evil Gur, an evil elf or an evil halfling. But according to DnD law, those races/ tribes are not evil. So no, not headcanon, but DbD fact. You are focusing on the monster hunter for hire - Geralt of Rivia is a monster hunter for hire, Sam and Dean Winchester are monster hunter for hire, but they all have the freedom to decide, if they finish a job or not and their best stories come from that dilemna. The Gur in the game were never after Astarion to kill him, they just wanted to know, what happened with their kids. I honestly don't find that unreasonable.

And btw: monster hunter is not the Gurs main thing. They have different occupations like any other humans. A lot of Gur are canonically seer, since many of them are born with divination skills.

Thank you, that was interesting to read).
The devil is not as bad as he is painted. Everyone needs good employees.


Well, truth be told, if you give Astarion to the Gurams, they'll just torture him getting information and kill him afterward. I.e., their intentions are not pure for the fugitive spawn...Considering they realize that Spavn is not responsible for his master, they still see him as a monster, nothing more. Casador will have to take his corpse and make him into a zombie.

Mirmi: No, the Gur don't kill Astarion. If you give him to Gandrel, then Cazador will attack and kill the Gur and Astarion will get zombified during the ritual. Happened to a friend of mine,who wanted to find out,what happens, if you give Astarion to Gandrel.

Hey all, I didn't mean to derail the conversation with the talk about the spawn souls lol. I was just trying to show how, in my opinion, Larian didn't do a good enough job of showing why killing all the vampires outside of the ritual would be better than going through with it. In general, the game raises a lot of questions to me that are never answered, some from the plot itself, some from the limitations of the gameplay (for example, if you kill Nettie, no one even seems to notice, which is bananas to me). But anyway, lots of interesting conversation to wake up to.


That strikes me really intensely and is one of the biggest indicators to me that Astarion truly wants to ascend and will always harbor some ill feelings if he doesn't (that and what he'll say to Tav if they break up with him). As far as I remember from my game, none of the other characters required a persuasion roll to make the "good" choice. Now, do I think that means it's wrong to deny him ascension? No, if that feels like the wrong choice to you, then by all means, don't help him. It's your game. But from my Tav's perspective, she always hated when people tried to get her to "do the right thing" and so she wouldn't have wanted to do that to Astarion. It would have felt manipulative to her. She ultimately decided to help him ascend, but if she had decided not to, she wouldn't have done the persuasion check. She would have just let him go.



My Tav likes to stay busy, so she'd probably be relieved that she won't have to spend her afterlife just lounging for an eternity XD



Here's a question I have: What do the Gur do if you let their children go? Will they welcome them back home? Will they try to kill them? Regardless of their in-game reaction, I think it's reasonable for AA and Tav to assume that they would kill them, or else cast them out. In my Tav's case then, being lectured about how she should have done the "right thing" by people who would have rejected their children, and who probably already knew their kids had to be either dead or spawn, would be pretty disgusted by that.

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about what actually happens in the UA route. I'm talking about what I see as reasonable for AA and Tav to assume what would happen in an alternate timeline that they have no way of interacting with.