Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

And that the contract can be broken, renegotiated, or circumvented. Like in Will's case. Mizora promises it's not over. But that could be either true or words to the wind, since she's been tricked (if you save Reivengard in the Iron Throne, In the epilogue, six months later, the Duke is still alive and well).
Talking about what will or won't happen is pure HC since no one knows.

Gale seems to be no fool, after meeting Raphael he offers to outplay the devil on his own field, while Will, who has tasted the treaty, says the devil will take everything and much more. They could both be right.

The game also has transactions with the devil, without losing your soul.
Kill Orton - Secret of the Scars.
Hammer - Crown of Karsus.
If they are not fulfilled, you don't lose your soul, you just don't get what you asked for.
What's not transaction a 7000 souls - power?

I didn't imply that Astarion lies, just that he, as well as the pc, doesn't have the whole picture yet. None of them are supposed to be well versed in devil lore, so I just meant, that he can think, he will be ok, only to find himself in a less than pleasant afterlife - as a possibility. As a long time pen and paper player with a DM,who loves to gives us nasty surprises sometimes, I tend to get paranoid.
Apart from that ,spawn Astarion lies as do most of the other companions,apart from Karlach and Lae'zel, who are pretty open about their stories and intentions from the beginning.
If I would accuse anyone of lying or at least holding back information, it would be Raphael, but I guess, he just used the whole Astarion/Cazador ritual thing for his advantage: showing Tav, he can be trusted with deals ( despite meeting Yurgir right after, who got a pretty unfair deal).

If you consider stumbling over a conveniently tied up guy in the sewer realistic, we have very different perceptions of realism. For me that scene is only edgy and maybe shows that Astarion is a thug. I do like the bit in which he holds his hand into the sunlight though.


Well he doesn't want to die and thinks that if he fesses up about his bomb before you consider him to be useful, you'll boot him out of the camp. Other than that, most people seem to agree that his alignment is either true neutral or neutral good, and most of his comments are rational but empathetic. His morality is mostly utilitarian, accepting some evil for the sake of a greater good. He dislikes the ritual because of the lost lives but likes the stronger vampire for the final battle. And he is the character who, after having been given a none-lethal solution to his orb, will still offer to detonate it so that nobody in the group has to transform into a mindflayer, in some variations he will downright guilt-trip you into allowing him to detonate. So, saying that he only looks out after his own well being is a very harsh view. He is probably the one who along with Karlach expresses most concern for the player group, he is just much less cuddly (and overbearing) than she is.


As for the whole "Who is lying" bit, I think that the characters are often very unreliable narrators when it comes to matters pertaining to their own flaws, convictions and hidden desires.

Yeah that's why I also included "wrong" in there. But remember he used to work in law (but I guess he could be lying about that too, but I hope you see from that how frustrating it is to always come against the "he's probably lying" argument) and could have read the contract in advance.

Deals with devils are dicey, sure. He expresses disapproval if you sign the deal for the Orphic Hammer, and is suspicious of Raphael well before that. But the continued insistence that there's more to this contract than he lets on, without any in-game evidence to suggest that's not the case, makes me feel a bit like I'm hitting my head against a brick wall.

You have to kill 7k people to do the ritual. That alone to me makes it an objectively bad thing. I still chose to do it, but I'm not shying away from the fact that it's evil. I just don't see why headcanon embellishments are necessary to justify not doing it.




Um, that scene sounds hawt. Any clips of it?

starryophonic:

Again, I didn't in any way, shape or form implied, he is lying here, I think, he is answering to the best if his knowledge. And I think, it is established, that he was a magistrate when he was alive,so yes, he has a knowledge of mortal laws at least. If I would be mad at Astarion about lying about his past in the beginning, that would be pretty petty, since obviously no one will go around telling everyone that they are a vampire spawn. Plus I would have to be mad at Gale and Shadowheart and even our local hero Wyll too, since their secrets are potentially more life threatening than a single small spawn. And apart from his past, Astarion did to my knowledge never lie. After his secret was out, he was pretty open with everything, even, when he knew, he could potentially make enemies with that.

And yes, the killing of 7000 people is a deal breaker for me personally, especially since Sebastian and the Gur kids are pretty decent. The other deal breaker is killing the Gur, since I like them.
But I take the devil deal into consideration, since I like to think things through. It is not on my priority, since it won't be me getting dragged to hell, but I can't help, but thinking about that, after having devil deals nearly through the whole game and most of them are at least somewhat harmful.

I just read a post on Reddit from an AA fan, who said, she was verbally attacked and even received death threats. If that is the climate, you guys have to discuss, then I do understand, why you are a bit jumpy and I'm really sorry. This is a game with fictional characters and everyone should play as they like and if some stupid idiots don't understand that and threaten people, they just destroy the fun for everyone. That is not ok.

Right. I understand that we're in agreement that he might be wrong, but I think where we disagree is simply that I don't see any reason to assume that he's wrong. I think it's also fine to say, "This is a deal involving a devil and even if you know every in and out of this contract, I still don't want to make it or help you make it."

Luckily I personally haven't received any death threats, but like I said before, it's just exhausting. Every time I come across any AA content, I have to steel myself that for as many comments as will be positive, there will be a ton of finger-wagging "You know he's evil right?" shaming kind of comments. I have no interest in tearing down the spawn path. I'm just trying to enjoy the version of the game that I chose.

Yeah, there is no mention of “Astarion lost his soul” in the game! Just those lines you quoted. During the game I didn't think about anything like that at all, I read it in the comments of Ascension opponents already after the game. Yes, of course, there was a desire to understand the canons of D&D about it. But here another question is interesting - where did they get it from? In the game they didn't, in D&D there is information about deals with devils, in general, everything is according to the principle of Mizora and Will's contract - this contract is completely canonical. And Astarion himself didn't sign any agreement with Mephistopheles, he didn't summon him, he didn't talk to him, he didn't negotiate anything, he just performed the ritual. Or maybe the contract was made with Cazador after all? Maybe Cazador, who had just fallen in with Mephistopheles, would pay for everything? Cazador signed the contract, the ritual was completed, the power was received, and the fact that it was received not by Cazador, but by Astarion, then... Hehehe. Quite in the spirit of “devil's jokes”. A letter from Averno, passed on by a merchant in the Moon Towers to Karlach, tells of such hapless contractors, albeit on a smaller level.

True, Mephistopheles is not a joker, but a “god of lawyers”, a completely law-abiding evil. Let's look at it from the point of view of civil law. A client (Cazador) makes a deal with a supplier (Mephistopheles). Granting power (Ascension) in exchange for 7000 souls. Payment received - power granted. If the one who makes the deal has to pay something else, which is not mentioned in the game, then Cazador made the deal! He prepared the ritual, did everything that needed to be done, and Astarion just “got the delivery”. It's not the firm's fault that the customer couldn't get what he ordered, the “goods” were delivered according to the deal. I think we can look at it that way too.

“He's losing his soul.” “He's just like Cazador.” These lines are constantly occurring in an unchanged form, they have no factual basis. They look like slogans. Somewhere there is a primary source for these slogans. The method of repetition works in such a way that there is a certain “truth” that has no proof, and if it is repeated endlessly by many people, it will be perceived as objective truth by others, and people are rarely inclined to double-check information, especially if it is not very important to them.

Tav might say, “You're just like Cazador now.” Or she might not. My Tav doesn't like to talk nonsense (sometimes the script makes her do it, but in general she doesn't like it and tries her best to avoid it). I can say, “Geese fly north because the bear is red,” and the interlocutor can ask me afterward, “What have you been smoking?” What does that prove to whom? How is the possibility of a certain line supposed to convince anyone of anything? The game is full of rude lines towards companions, not just Astarion. Does that mean that all companions are accurately described by those rude lines? For Astarion, by the way, it's very painful to hear such things. Find someone's pain point, push it with your words, and listen to them yell at you. Especially in the case that this person loves you. Question: which of these two is the abuser?

By the way, “fans of the Cazador 2.0 version” sometimes have something of value in the comments too (I didn't notice it right away):


Notice the word “healed”! That is, they know and understand that the Ascension is the healing for Astarion. Simply healing Astarion is an evil act. Ok, but then why are they tricking romantic innocent UAs? How many of them love Astarion and are under the blissful illusion that ritual is bad for HIM? And without the ritual, he's fine. So it makes sense, Astarion is evil, helping him and healing him is an evil act. His “good ending” is good for the world, not for Astarion. And the writers realize that, and that's why such a final scene and all that. But the character became too popular, so the audience needed to be “prescribed a sedative”, convinced that remaining a spawn forever is good for him.


Interesting, I didn't have that dialog. I had Gale wanting to kick Astarion out of the camp, so I was rude to Gale. On Ascension, yeah, he reacted adequately. Also Will reacted normally, like, “Astarion can be proud of himself, and I can't say the same about myself...” He had previously recently broken his contract with Mizora and was tormented by guilt over his father, it felt like someone who was worried and more caught up in his own feelings, and not really inclined to evaluate what other people were doing. Perhaps Will's assessment of events is influenced by the state of Will's own quest at that point.


Ok, I just haven't seen those lines. Just if you make a reference, it's better to explain, not everyone could see it in the game, in BG3 there are many lines that are available only under certain circumstances and not everyone in their walkthroughs get them. Just so it doesn't seem like trolling to someone unfamiliar with references.


Well, the only reason for that is love, when you don't want to lose that person. When you want to bind them to you more tightly. For an independent character who is not that attached to anyone, of course, such a novel is not suitable.


I didn't have a problem with the D/s undertone either, but rather with the fact that D/s is mandatory. The script doesn't allow me to tell Astarion that I love him and want to be with him forever, while refuting the statement that I enjoy degrading myself. I have to headcanon, skip that check, imagining such a wise and understanding Tav who decided to play along with Astarion and just give him this opportunity to make him feel better. A sort of therapy for him. When one person in a pair has gone through a lot of suffering and has a serious inner trauma, and the other one does not, it is the second one who, if they love and appreciate their partner, should show understanding. But it's a pity that the game “writes the player” setting some limited framework for Tav/DU, although in my opinion, the kind of roleplay I described is nothing exceptional, quite obvious and it's extremely strange not to consider a player who would like to roleplay like that.


Yes! Like in the movie Pirates of the Caribbean. When Jack made a deal with the sea devil Davy Jones - Jones made Jack captain of the “Black Pearl”, in return he would give him his soul after a specified time - Jack had to serve a hundred years on Jones' ship “The Flying Dutchman”. Then Jack, instead of paying, offered him a hundred souls in his place and renegotiated the deal. Very similar to Astarion, differing only in number. And nobody hated Jack Sparrow for it! Everyone smiled and laughed. Sparrow himself made a deal with the sea devil, he was not threatened by any spawn condition, he himself cheated people, recruiting them to his team to pay off the devil. Why is he allowed, but Astarion is Cazador 2.0?


I find Karlach much less likable than Gale, especially in Act 3. She's such a disappointing character - liked her at first and then... I find her rather stupid and somewhat hysterical. Gale is at least considerably smarter than Karlach. Yes, there are still some very funny moments with him. Lick a dead spider (somewhere near Yurgir) in front of him - he has the funniest reaction out of the whole group. And make sure you lick the spider twice. I was under the table from Gale's reaction to this, even Astarion couldn't produce anything funnier in this case.

Thanks for the info, I saw the video of Gale exploding in the finale but couldn't figure out why it was even done. It turns out it's his bad ending - self-sacrifice so no one else becomes an illithid. That decision still seems very odd though - Karlach wants to become an illithid herself, and fine. Karlach's fans can make Orpheus an illithid. Unless someone strongly adores both Karlach and Lae'zel at the same time.

Yes, this sometimes happens when you leave positive comments under AA videos. They're certainly easy to beat as a result, but it can specifically eat up your valuable resting time. But threats, this isn't funny at all anymore... More like some kind of buller association than a gaming community.

I had Astarion wanting to kick Gale out when he confessed about the bomb. I told him I needed to consult with the others, and Astarion said "what's to think about, let's watch until Gale's figure becomes a dot on the horizon". XD
So apparently they have a mutual "love".))
In the love triangle with Gale, Astarion doesn't speak well of him either.

Will at my place said that: "thousands of lives are sacrificed and the servant becomes master. I have no doubt Astarion can be proud of himself, I wish I could say the same." Will's quest had not been completed by that point.
I took that to mean he was judging, not proud of him.


In my opinion, Carlach, who is a "devilish, threatening the entire Sword Coast, battle-hardened barbarian" is too...infantile? Her fans call her a "labrador puppy." And she does look like one.
I'd like to see her as a slightly more mature character, not a child of 15.

Like Will. He's overly "nice." They cut out the whole story of him falling into the clutches of goblins and them torturing him. But they left out the endorsement when you make Chrup kiss your foot (what? Is it his hidden fetish or dislike of goblins though?), and he spits "let's finish her off" saliva at Kishka.


Unfortunately, it's horrible and it's something we have to deal with often. I do not understand why there is such a zealous defense of positions. And more often from the side of Spavn fans, who with a foam at the mouth will explain to you that you play "wrong". Although there are such people in AA as well.
I have never encountered this phenomenon in other games before.

With all the hate on this subject it feels all the more important to speak about it and be vocal about the fact that there is no wrong choice in the Astarion character arc. We all do what is right for our PC and no choice is wrong, no one can tell another player what they should do. Certainly not by force or death threats.
I'm glad we have this space on the Larian forums where it feels relatively safe to discuss Astarion. It is scary to step forward in this weather but to show that we are all humans and not some monsters for Ascending (or not ascending) Astarion is key to hopefully building a nicer community.

Yeah Astarion said so. I started to treat Gale better after that, but I thought that maybe these characters were meant to be antagonists, but that didn't happen, there were no further conflicts between them. Except that Gale is the nastiest in terms of biting - if Astarion bites companions, the others just cuss and give -1 approval to Tav, and Gale did something with blood, so Astarion becomes poisoned for a while and gets nauseated by Gale.


Yes, I had that line too, I just gave it in general terms from memory, thanks for the exact verbatim quote. I did understand it differently though, not as a condemnation, but to point out: “I wish I could say the same.” Also, Will made a sad face at the end of his statement. I saw this as Will not being able to say the same thing about himself, he is not proud of himself, he blames himself for breaking his contract with Mizora and sacrificing his father. That is most likely what his thoughts are preoccupied with right now, and what Astarion did is not that important to him. He rather stated the fact of what had happened, well, and remarked that Astarion was proud of himself. I even memorized that line wrong because of that. Or because of the localization there wasn't an exact translation which gave me the wrong idea, I'll have to load the save and see. So he did mean condemnation, and that he can't say the same thing, meaning he can't say he's proud of Astarion. In that case that line seems like a very pathos condemnation.


Yes, indeed, she doesn't seem like someone particularly threatening. But in combat she's okay, and her lines in combat I like. But she doesn't look at all like someone who fought in Averno in the devil wars. It's looking more like she was just teased and abused there, and that's why she's so reluctant to go there.

I only had Will give approval on the first Intimidation when Tav didn't kiss the goblin's foot. And when Tav made the goblin kiss her foot, only Astarion gave approval. And it's also very funny when Will gives disapproval for Tav finding out from the goblins where the captives are. He's such a simple guy - he thinks we should tell our enemies, “No, I'm not going to torture them! I'll save them!” Will, you're the Duke's son, you should have been taught diplomacy!


There was no such thing in other games at all. My acquaintances participated in some forum local wars, because of the strategy (sorry, I do not remember the name), where you could play, developing civilization along the path of democracy, slavery and something else third. And the players were divided, obviously by mentality, and democrats fought slaveholders on the level of their forums. But it wasn't even close in scale there, the developers didn't encourage or teach anyone, they just gave different development paths. What is happening now with Astarion in BG3 is like some kind of network warfare on the level of ideology, not the game.


Totally agree. I think it is important to bring information and objective criticism on all platforms where possible. Players can NOT play the game wrong. You can script badly, you can do bad scenes, you can have problems in the game, but it is impossible to play wrong. If anyone confuses the game with a platform to enforce their views, they are very mistaken.

I don't know what it is like on reddit, but I feel the discourse around Astarion on yt is a bit on the toxic side in general. You mention nasty spawn support under ascended videos, the same is true the other way around. I have gotten a comment about how vile it is to not ascend poor Astarion under a comment that wasn't even about Astarion, and got some pretty bitchy reply to something that was mostly about how the writing for stopping the ritual was handled by a Spawn fan. There just doesn't seem to much room for discussion unless you 100% agree with the view of a video's creator - which means there isn't room for discussion at all.

Yeah, some people are getting a bit too invested in a fictional character, to a degree, where it just isn't healthy anymore. I think most BG3 fans are pretty nice in general, but you always have toxicity in such a big fandom. Live and let live is my motto.

And back to topic: I liked romancing Astarion with my gnome bard lady. Remember how he makes that not so nice comment in act 1 about gnomes? Well, he apologises profoundly for it,when you go to act 2 and establish the relationship. That was really well done and nice of the writers to include that, despite gnomes being among the least played races ( which is sad, they are awesome). I also like the kiss animation for him and a small race Tav ( and I'm romantic as a stone normally - I didn't even notice, the kiss animation was broken after that one patch or hotfix)

Wait, where? It was my understanding his reactivity to gnome Tavs died down after Act 1, I'm really curious if I missed something

Of course, there are all sorts of things. I myself simply do not read and write comments under the videos of UA supporters, I watch such channels for the sake of the video itself, rather, I even search in YouTube search engine for the video I am interested in and do not pay attention to the channel itself. I subscribe and comment only on those channels where the author of the channel creates a story that I like, so I've only encountered UA coming to AA. I myself like discussions and debates, interesting arguments when both sides have a good grasp of the topic, can provide interesting arguments, quotes and links. An intellectual duel is always a beautiful thing.

These are, of course, the headcannons of the player, the player player character , but... Astarion Spawn, in the end, if you ask him to go look for a cure, he lights up with this idea. And here's the ritual, it's a terrible thing, someone says, but what if the new found method is even more terrible, and what? Will the PC, once again, persuade Astarion to stop? And the second time, I think Astarion will no longer obey, because it is really important for him to walk in the sun and other delights, because he repeats a couple of times in conversations: it would be nice to still get strength, but what is done is done, he is clearly upset, suppresses these feelings for the sake of Tav. In the epilogue without a relationship, or after a breakup, he says that now he owns his destiny, and when he finds a way to walk under the sun, now he will not miss it, nothing and no one will stop him. By the way, these are important words, the ritual was really important to him.
By the way, a curious point, this is of course my subjective opinion, but Spawn Astarion is more honest without a relationship, but not in a relationship, while AAstarion is more honest in a relationship, and without them he is lying and trying to look cool, although he is lonely. Wow, we can conclude that Aastarion is better off in a relationship, and Spawn is better off without them, he does not need to adjust to anyone, and can do what he wants.
I went through all possible options with Astarion in order to know the whole character, so I draw such conclusions based on both Spawn and Ascended. Ascension is great for Astarion, and staying spawn is forced by circumstances, so it's better for the player, or his PC, for the world, after all, but not for Astarion. I made such conclusions based on the passage with both spawn and ascended, as well as the ending with the subordination of the brain with Astarion, I like it too. Tav also became an Illithid, and I can say that AAstarion is more loyal to pc illithid.
And of course, I will always choose ascension, because this is the best development for Astarion. Objectively, the ritual makes Astarion a better person, his character does not change, he is still the same Astarion, just a better version of himself. The soul is also with him. The fact that he lost his soul is just the empty conversations of his companions, which would once again prick us for choosing.
And when he has everything he can wish for, the only thing that may be missing is a loved one next to him, and if that person is there, then Astarion is completely happy, as is Tav with him. There is no toxicity in their relationship. You know what I'm talking about... I like how Astarion reacts to the PC, that is, if we treat Astarion in a good way, then he is kind in return, and also, if Tav constantly gets on his nerves, compare with Casador, then he will be defiant in response. And it's so well done, so realistic, I like it. Therefore, if you and Astarion are on the same wavelength, then you will never see any toxicity. Tav and Astarion are doing well.
And only one detail added with the sixth patch overshadows everything, it's Tav's face distorted with fear, but I'm sure that with the next big patch it will be fixed.
It's not for the sake of argument, just my thoughts and reasoning.
And sorry for my language, this is a Google translator.

I agree 100% illeaillas-san.

That's a very interesting point, it's quite possible spawn Astarion could be offered something like another deal with a devil that would also be an evil act and I agree with you that he is very unlikely to refuse it.
In a relationship with spawn Astarion, he has no real power at all and that is just as unhealthy a dynamic as some people are arguing the relationship with A. Astarion is. It won't necessarily end up with one partner abusing the other, but it has the potential.
Again, I think you are right, Spawn Astarion seems unable to voice his desires when in a relationship, so for him, being alone is probably healthier because then he is free to make his own decisions.

Great points. My one quibble is that I do think you can interpret some toxicity into the Ascended relationship, even if you pick only complimentary responses. For example, the "don't stray too far line," if your headcanon is that Tav and Astarion are mutually enjoying a power play, then that line is fine. But a lot of people get skeeved out by that line, because they, or their character, wants to see the relationship as equal. Same with the, "You await my command" line. Some (like me) think it's perfect. Others don't like it and find it indicative of potential very controlling behavior.

BUT I do want to emphasize that even if there is toxicity, it doesn't make it an invalid choice for Astarion's story, nor does it let Unascended Astarion off the hook for some questionable behavior.

I think, all of Ascended Astarion's words are can be interpret in different ways, and I love it.
"You may walk in the sunshine, but don't stray too far line".
1.Literally, since protection is not limitless.
2. Figuratively, i.e. don't stray from him plans. Or don't go against me. (Vampires, power-hungry creatures. And he's made a possible rival in you, and given sun protection you).
"You will be surprisingly obedient."
Likewise. Either we're on the same page, or I'll make you obey me.
"You have it in you, too. You wait for my orders."
Here I see the relationship dynamics. Or a kink reference. Now it's not me, it's you listening to me.

And on top of that, should we judge him harshly right after the ritual? He's up, he's emotional. He says a lot of things, but later, he calms down. Saying and doing (oh... kisses in Patch 6...) are different things. He offered an conversion, and exhaled if the PC agreed. If not, offended, but comes to apologize later.

Saying AA is going to be toxic and the further it goes, the more so, is like saying Spawn will always be obedient and good. It may or may not.

Is it controlling? Yes. Possessive? Yes. Is that the norm of the relationship? No. But, within the world and time frame where the action takes place, it is maybe normal. Is it an equal relationship? No. And I don't see equal in Spawn.
Would it be an equal relationship with God Gale? I don't think so either.
Not even with Will. If he takes his father's place, you'll be the same consort next to him. There's no equality.
Liberty, my favorite argument is that AA is toxic.
You've become a Spawn (or bride). What freedom. Spawns are bound to the creator. Brides are even more so, kill the bride, the creator will be screwed too.
Of course he won't let go. We've seen and heard what Astarion told us about, fought Kasador who shouted "he's mine" at us, and still took the conversion. What freedom are we talking about?
It's not in the game yet, but (if you leave with Karlach in Averno and watch AA's reaction to it, he says take a walk and come back to me).