Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion

+1!
I support Marielle with these points 100% as this goes to the very heart of what we find issue with. Thank you for collating and putting it across so well!



Yes, and that is a *very* good question, not in the least because I believe this might be the *only* place in the game where a successful Read Thoughts check doesn't lead to a new dialogue option being unlocked in the conversation. I would be intersted to see if there is some hidden reply burried within the parsed game dialogue that just doesn't fire up in-game, OR if this was intentional. Sadly, it does feel like the latter might be the case, as it would neatly fall into the trend of taking agency away from the Player where AA is concerned:

"No, he doesn't love you, he thinks you're degrading yourself, and you're not allowed to react"

"No, you don't love it, you are terrified of him, and you're not allowed to feel differently"

"No, you can't agree to this, he's toxic, you WILL be thought a lesson, and you're not allowed to decide for yourself"


*edit for phrasing*

Okay, here's something else I just thought about. In the Spawn post-ritual sex scene, Astarion shoves Tav, and their reaction face seems to be pretty neutral, leaning more towards positive. Maybe a little surprised? I just don't get how a light, intimacy-related shove from Spawn Astarion should be treated differently than a similar action from Ascended Astarion (playful biting during a kiss seems roughly equivalent to a little shove during sex in my mind, but maybe I'm just a freak?). Because he's evil now, I guess? What's Ascended Astarion done differently? Talked a little more intensely? Oh, I guess he sacrificed 7k souls. But Spawn Astarion could have also killed those 7k people, and the scene would remain the same, so...make it make sense.

And I know this is about the kisses, not the sex scene, but it really strikes me that aside from the biting and kneeling, the actual sex in the Ascendent scene is just regular old sex, no shoving involved. But Spawn gets a shove and all the fans go gaga over their sweet soft baby boy. It just feels like the more I learn about both paths, the less I really see a difference in the character, aside from one has physical power and the other doesn't. If it's really the same character, then the idea that Tav's reaction to the Ascendent kisses is some kind of Larian-imposed punishment for choosing that path makes even less sense.

Honestly, the last thing I want to do is ask myself that question seriously when having a romance with a killer vampire.

Astarion Dark Lord that the player likes (since they choose that character) + February 14 + new kiss + bite + knees
Wait. What did you think this was going to be about pleasure? Huh, no.

I personally feel nothing but shame and hurt, from the Tav reaction.

It's an intimate thing, it's a kiss, I'm being shown something intimate and the “right reaction” to it.
Pain, sadness, resentment.
From Astarion? Or from what exactly is shown, eh?

See, this is how the majority of people react to him - this is how it should be.
“This version” is how it should be. No, not “this version”, it's the same character who quotes himself from Act 1 and Act 2 talking about power. More loudly and now can realize it. With him I can cuddle and kiss nicely.
Last night was literally smiling and do anything.

How many people kill Astarion without much delay because they don't like him? Quite a few I think, do we need to listen to them making content for Astarion, or is it better to listen to who likes the character.

Well, more I'm offended from Larian attitude. You're adults and making a game for adults, was it really such a complicated scheme?
“player clicks on kiss - wants a nice thing to see”
“player doesn't like it - clicks break up” - and with Ascended Astarion you can do that.
Breaking up is not possible at the End Game - the other 5 Tav responses imply that Tav doesn't want to break up and has realized the meaning of “to be mine forever” - that's kind of one of the goals.

If, of course, someane in team Larian is guided not by logic but by Tik Tok, fanfics, trends, then understandable.
Tik Tok kind of wanted rats and a dungeon. What a patch 5 phenomenon. Even in patch 6, it turns out Tav can gallivant all over Faerun as thay pleases.

Astarion is dangerous immediately, Astarion is also dangerous as a spawn, “I can cure this manipulative person with the power of love” is a dangerous idea irl. Morality irl “as it should be” is not applicable and is a double standard.

It's amazing how a character's reaction to something intimate can be used to make a negative attitude about the entire work of so many people.

+ 1
let me kiss Lord Astarion happily, for Christ's sake

This is what I've been thinking of lately. People who hate on AA accuse him of the same things spawn Astarion is capable of doing and has done. I pointed out on the BG3 subreddit that both UA and AA call you pet, but then they claim AA is being sarcastic or less respectful than UA is being at the drow twins. And I just don't see it. People jump down AA's throat for calling them pet, but there's no option to do that to UA? Astarion doesn't like when you argue with him or don't see things from his point of view, he never has through the whole game.

Let's also point out the fact that there are NO argumentative dialogue options for UA. All the argumentative dialogue options are for AA alone. Spawn Astarion (UA) for the entire game has been sharp with replies to disagreement or any opinion that doesn't align with his opinion. I think AA and UA are more alike than people realize, especially the AA haters. AA is UA without breaks, without an act, without a filter, and AA is just completely 100% raw Astarion. I think UA just tailors his behavior and words to be acceptable to people, while AA completely abandons that effort. You can even get AA-like behavior from spawn Astarion in the previous acts if you're mean to him or say things he obviously wouldn't like.

Honestly, and we can move this discussion over to Marielle's thread in Story Discussion is we need to, but the fact that UA will be angry if you killed Cazador without him, saying you made a decision for him, AND the fact that if you break up with him after rejecting ascension he tells you he gave that up for you, tells me all I need to know. Astarion wants to ascend. Making him reject it isn't "fixing him;" it's just taking away his access to a fundamental part of himself, and that might be scary to admit because that part of him is pretty sinister.

I mean everyone has the right to play the way they want but to me, not allowing him to ascend AND staying in a relationship with him after is basically the equivalent of saying, "You know that thing you said you wanted more than anything, multiple times? And you know how I said I'd help you get it? Well, it turns out I was only saying that because I wanted you to keep smooching me, and now I'm not only NOT going to help you, but I'm also going to shame you for wanting it and do everything I can to get you to stay with me despite the fact that I essentially strung you along because I know what you want better than you do somehow." It's a video game, not real life, but if I were really Tav, I would feel like I should either help him ascend, or stay the hell out of his way. It's not like he hasn't made his wishes clear.

Yes, I have a similar translation, and that's what causes the burning desire to prove otherwise. Or at least SHOW him the truth, rather than just one act of agreeing with it. I think that becoming consort doesn't mean a lowering of status (Tav didn't have any status before), becoming someone's wife/husband gives us a new social role, a new status in society, but this status is more to show the unity of the couple, to formalize the fact that you are together. Tav is no longer just a "hero" who can date someone, love someone, the new status emphasizes commitment to one specific person, Astarion. And Astarion can't have another consort either - it's cementing the bond, taking the relationship to the highest level - the level of unity of the couple. Yes, a consort is not equal to a regent, but there is nothing humiliating about it, no one can be equal to a king or emperor - it's just a tradition of the monarch form of government, so far in the game Astarion hasn't started to rule anyone, but being an aristocrat by birth, he knows the traditions and names his lover according to the tribute of tradition. Perhaps the use of the word "equal" in the UA route is an additional "authorial emphasis" to make it clear where you would be an equal and where you would not. Astarion needs the ability to control Tav first and foremost in order to trust, to know that Tav cannot betray him, and Tav, in agreeing to this, wants to prove it to him by deed. Tav knows that he will never abandon Astarion, and let Astarion get his "official confirmation" of that to gain his ultimate trust in that way. With Harleep yes, the usual way out, it's a good thing the game hasn't yet introduced the obligatory incubus rape of Tav in the form of a cutscene where Tav will suddenly find themselves naked, unarmed, with the face of a victim, and without the ability to throw at least an Athletics check to try to strangle Harleep with their bare hands. But with Astarion, it's an important meaningful romantic scene, a scene that determines the couple's future, it's kind of on a completely different plane than another offer to hook up from some NPS or companion. Even if the author of this romance scene doesn't see the difference between these things, players do, and the complete impossibility of roleplay in this scene may well be frustrating and dumbfounding on first playthrough. The player is more likely to draw parallels to other significant romance scenes where there were different options for roleplay and reactions (the same ability to open consciousness), rather than some brash, albeit unusual, but still just one of the regularly encountered enemies in the game. Astarion could have explained the necessity of the kneeling with a single line like, "It's important to me," which would immediately hint to the untrained player at the sacredness of the ritual, removing the problems with getting through that scene, or at least Astarion could have seen what it really meant to Tav if Tav had been able to open his consciousness at that moment. And at this point, alas, everything leads us to this:


In my playthrough, this place was really the only one where a successful check doesn't unlock a new dialog option. I don't know if anyone has been able to find any other place like this in the game, but it seems like it just doesn't exist. Special to Astarion and special to us. Exclusive rails - enjoy the ride. Next stop is Victim of Violence, patch 6. Instead of an RPG, it's a sort of "novella", a "short story" whose characters are Astarion and Tav. Only instead of our character in this story, it's another character invented by someone else, and we have no choice but to go along with someone else's headcanon. At the same time, the game provides an "option" that makes all Astarion-loving players simply angry or bewildered - "kick in the balls". It's just annoying to mention this one in a post even, but in game our eyes have to see this "creativity" every time. Maybe some of the modders will "clean it up" and remove it from the game so that the rails are at least just clean rails, without... I don't know who might be interested in this kind of "roleplay" for, any suggestion to that effect might trigger a reaction along the lines of "Ahh, you're insulting people for using the game feature provided!", so probably for those who like to test the game and just pick all the lines in a row to see what happens. Ok, dear author, you have a very specific "humor" for the "initiated", or for anyone else out there, but why not, if you decided to write THIS, do something for normal, adequate roleplay as well?


This is truly amazing. What started out as fanfic ended up as scenes of sadism. From "I want your body" and "I like degrading myself" to the fear, pain, and hurt on the victim's face. The saddest thing is when a person playing the game starts to think: "Maybe I'm just a freak?" because of the scripted arbitrariness of some "author" who decided to "show their story", laying rails through the hearts of players, to destroy everything good that was in the game, to destroy the wonderful, multifaceted and loving image of Astarion, to reduce him to some "model of an abuser and sadist" for the sake of hype, promotion of some activist views, their own "vision", whatever.

"Favorite characters are always the easiest source of emotional engagement for any player." This is a quote from a lecture by one of Larian's authors. This lecture is not directly related to Astarion or BG3, I will put it under a spoiler just as a confirmation of the quote.


What should a player get THAT kind of emotional interaction for?

Larian, please fix this. Fix the sadistic kisses of patch 6. You've won BAFTA, that's great. The majority (living in Britain) of players like everything. Please don't leave it to the "minority" to have the game remain in their hearts and memories as the worst romantic scenario in their entire gaming experience. Allow those who think, feel and perceive the game not according to someone else's narrative, but as they saw and perceived it before, to stay in the game and not be "victimized". "Victim of scripted arbitrariness" is not what a player should be in a game that has won every possible award and honor. We trusted you, we supported you, we voted for you once before, we deserve at least basic human treatment.

"Wants nice thing to see". Yes, you're right at the heart of it. Whenever I changed Tav's clothes with colors or combination I always went to kiss Astarion after. Why? Because it was the best animation to look at while I decided if the clothing and makeup matched. If my character design was any good. Now it's only a reminder of how my own RP does not matter. What is the point of dressing up my character to match their personality when I'm not the one deciding my character persona? I can choose everywhere else, the game builds the story of my character through my character action and dialog, the persona I have decided. Now the romance is steered so hard into another character that there is no room for any other interpretation.

The kisses is a vital part of the romance. It should be something you want to see again and again, something that makes you smile while it happens. That reminds you of why you chose Astarion and increase the bond you feel between Astarion and Tav. Letting you build the romance up in your mind as the story goes on. You should feel good because romance is something you would feel good about.

Why then are these kisses made in to a punishment? And if they are not, why then? Why are the faces like that?

Yeah, that's what I've always done! And when I managed to trophy a cool new armor, I always kissed Astarion first. And changing clothes and picking out outfits for Astarion himself - also "celebrated" with kisses....

- My love, how you and I butchered Raphael! That was some fight! How does the Hell's Sunset set look on me?

- You deserve a treat...

And on her knees with a face twisted with horror, waiting for something incredibly cruel... Devil Slayer, that's what Helsik would later call this unfortunate victim of domestic violence.

- Astarion, look at this suit! We should buy it for you - we've never seen it before, it's a combination of two patterns, very beautiful! Try it on, please... What do you think?

I guess he didn't like it, it didn't fit well, because he had to bite me and punch me in the face afterwards. So next time I'll make sure I pick pants that don't pinch.

A cringe-worthy mix of RPG with... With whatever they mixed it with. No connection between Astarion and Tav, no connection between story and sadistic videos, no connection between common sense and logic and being able to play this.

Thanks Zayir! I want the option to choose any of the Astarion kisses and not be locked out of any (once they fix Tav's expressions, I will enjoy the Ascended kisses then). I just need a little sugar to balance the salt

Sorry messed up the quote formatting.

Quote from Zayir:

And now seeing the differences in the companion's kisses ingame: The idea of the AA kisses/Astarion's animation really, really fits. I myself only like the kinky AA style (shove, knees, grabbing, examining Tav), and one of Wyll's kiss, the dance, where he is grabbing Tav 's arm and pulling in (and Astarion's patch 5 kiss was nice). The other ones are really lame/tame for my taste and woulnd't fit a dark romance with an evil Vampire. Whatever will happen, I really hope, they will never remove AA's great animations or the kink (shove, forcing Tav on the knees), when you chose "let it hurt", and will just make it consensual.[/quote]

[/quote]

Saw someone on YT compare AA and Tav to Gomez and Morticia so…petition to add Astarion kissing Tav passionately up the arm.

Just kidding. Sort of.

Yes, it was very, very, very... <3

By the way, yesterday The companion character designer lead at Baldur's Gate 3, Baudelaire Welch, who is working on Baldur's Gate 3 as the romance feature lead gave a lecture "Romance Design in Video Games" at Nordic Game. There's a bit about our Astarion in there too. Not on the topic of this thread, so I've posted the video of the lecture here if anyone is interested.

This lecture, in my opinion, is very interesting to listen to.

I do really love Gomez and Morticia!! I would rather have that type of obsessive & passionate kisses than what we currently have for the AA path. Otherwise, I do not want to have forced headcanon in a role playiing game, where the characters' stories continue on in my own headcanon. I want to go back to a role playing game that I am playing solo on my computer and decide the story from there since Larian stated they gave the characters to us. They also do not own them. The game is world wide release and there are many different canons. I want a game and expect a game to be the role playing adult (NOT TEENAGER) fantasy where that is possible. No forcing of any particular headcanon on anyone (Or dating advice or whatever your EMPLOYEE was pushing for in her speech). This game was a loosely based D&D role playing fantasy game that is supposed to be fun and entertaining, not something that brings irl Earth problems into my game to trigger, retrigger, or traumatize people who have already lived through irl DV/SA such as the person behind the keyboard. Evil endings do not make someone's personality change for a few moments just to shock a person and then go back to normal. It simply does not fit here, not as the story is presented in the game.


To bring it back to our feedback and request on patch 6 destroyed player agency with Astarion.



Larian, please:




The added animations for the Patch 6 kisses were a miss for many reasons. I will not repeat why, I think you can read just fine why many have issues with them. Give us choices for those animations: Gentle, Rough, or both. Let's make some people happy and they will go back to playing the game. It is Larian's responsibility to fix what they inserted and not do so without thinking of all sides of the situation. It is not something you should force in and would have to change a LOT of dialogue and animations and voice acting to just add this and make it logical. Instead, just go with a more logical choice, and fix it for people to go back to being happy & entertained. I would also like to add the request from another thread that is also forced that even though we have gone through the confession scene, have been waiting patiently for Astarion to decide what he would like out of the romance as far as sex, please change the line about wanting his body. This is not a positive choice and it really doesn't belong here since we have been complying with his wishes. For those who did the confession scene differently, you might have to keep it, yet you railroaded ALL of us instead of thinking of adding more and better options. Make a more positive choice addition, make it make logical sense, and then we will see that you in fact do listen to those of us who play the path of the AA romance without having to change the entire game just to fit in the changes that make no logical sense as of this moment in time.

This will at least begin to heal those whom you have hurt in the process and hopefully then allow future players to be satisfied as we once were prior to patch 6, though we had to headcanon a LOT through parts of the story that did not line up, since you ran out of time & are wanting to move on to your other projects.

Please Larian, we were happy before the changes that came well after the release that did not fit in the story and were hopefully made due to an error or lack of true understanding of the content you thought you were putting in and failed at.

Please look at the other threads for ideas on the dialogue options after ascension that need to add positive choices for role play and also see how Astarion can pull you to the dark side discussion for more understanding.

In the end, it is a fantasy romance with a fictional vampire elf (he does not exist irl on Earth). We still love our Astarion. And though you (Larian) have not responded, we are still believing in you.

Thank you.

I agree! Looking at the lecture of Larian's Romance lead developer, I am asking what the intention of patch 6 could be.

Are the patch 6 kisses, as they are now, a kink? A kink would be at least consensual-non consent with the option to stop it, step back, as soon as you feel uncomfortable (you can do it with the bear, too, and you know what is coming and can say "no"), both partners are agreeing. But that's not the case here.
The player has no agency and Tav is , with a little exception, showing no sign of consenting to it, as Tav shows sadness before, during and after the kiss. This scene (or at least Tav!) is from 100 % non-con fantasy / sexual violence toward non-consenting victims (the character shows no sign of consenting, doesn't want it and detest the offender), and a special theme of 100 % non-con fantasies (but seems common in those non'con fantasies) are hypnose, control, drugs: the non-consenting victim doesn't want it, but is under the control of the offender (a character, monster, tentacles, invisible force), which can mean, the victim is saying things to encourage the offender or doing things while under control (reminds me a bit of Tav = attempt to kiss their partner/offender with a weird doll face, before and after Tav is non-consenting, doesn't even dare to look at their partner/offender) while it is clear, the victim doesn't want it and is drugged, controled or hypnosed.
In general 100% non-con = non-consenting victim = sexual abuse fantasy, is only liked by a very small amount of people (luckily, because those animes/fanfiction are mainly consumed by/or made by / for people who get [or only get] pleasure in seeing non-consenting victims).

Only if the player's character is consenting/show signs of consenting, then the kiss would be a kink. In the kink community, consent is paramount.


Yep. Would be a bad, bad fanfic pool. Or poorly executed kink fanfiction.

But:

Romance lead developer, Larian: ?So, take the bear scene from Baldur's Gate 3. Why did it make such an impact? (...) Players in the fan fiction communities had been joking for years post-Early Access about the different degenerate things they wanted to do with Druid Daddy Halsin, and we gave them an incredibly silly scene which takes an identity moniker from the gay community literally. The gay bear becomes the gay bear.
And we gave them something which feels like it's from the tradition of CrackFic and present it as if it's a mainstream game feature. And then you feel like all the time you spent horny queer shitposting with your friends in your Discord is validated. It is real. It is a wonderful way of engaging with the game. ?

I am not well versed in CrackFic, but Wiki tells me: "A work of fan fiction that is absurd, surprising or ridiculous, often intentionally."

Was the idea for Tav's behaviour from Crackfic, rather than non-con fanfiction? Was the intention to make "absurd" crackfic kisses? Is it common to make 100 % non-con fantasy / sexual violence scenes in Crackfics? The kiss scene may be absurd (especially because it's not consistent and storywise how Tav behaves) and sursprising (more in a negative sense), but it is not ridiculous or funny, at least for the players who let their character romance Astarion and got harmed or felt uncomfortable by seeing non-con/sexual violence fantasy/paraphilia. There is a reason why non-con sex fantasies and rape are only available in some corners of the internet and not in a mainstream game (at least if Larian wanted to include noncon fantasies and sexual violence, there need to be a description,/rating that it contains sexual violence for reasons, which it has not. Might also be the reason why Larian doesn't show the sexual act with the bear. Could be uncomfortable for some players to see it (the zoophilia). At least for the unseen bear act the players still have the possibility to step back, if they can't bear the bear.)

So what do we have in patch 6? It's not a BDSM or kink Fanfiction (only a part of it), it's not a crackfic (I assume, or maybe someone knows better). What could it be? An attempt to make players feel bad?

? In this dialogue, I directly wanted to make the player feel bad for having learned the mentality of click-the-right-dialogue-options-to-get-sex-in-video-games (...)? 

To let them know how it feels to be cheated or abused?

?There are so many types of challenging relationship issues that exist out there in the real world, but we've just never seen depicted in games.(...) When have you ever been cheated on? When has a character ever come to you and told you that they think the spark has gone from your relationship? When has a character's mental health suffered from being in a relationship? When have you ever been gaslit? When have you ever seen your partner become abusive?(...)
And I would love it if anyone else begins to explore things like, you know, abuse, gaslighting, like relationships going wrong, etc. in a lot of detail».




+1
I want to add a thought.
A lot of BDSM lovers are playing Astarion's romance, a lot of those players like the grabbing (let it hurt) and kneeling scene. The animation of Astarion in patch 6 kisses could be from a kink scene, it reminds us of the romance scene.

Tav but absolutely not! Tav is from 100 % non-con sexual violence fantasies/paraphilia (I want to add: Tav / or this scene is also not from a realistic abuse or domestic violence, because no victim of sexual violence would behave like Tav, who is showing signs of enjoyment during the kneeling kiss, but non-con before and after, the same with the bite kiss, tav wouldn't make an attempt to kiss their offender in reallife situation!! In domestic violence, Astarion wouldn't ask Tav to kneel either! This is not realistic abuse, Tav's non-con behaviour (especially Tav's sad and disgusted faces) is abuse fantasies (!) of people who are watching this scene or think themselves in the shoes of Astarion=in the shoes of an offender!). These 100 % non-con kisses/Tav (sexual abuse fantasy but in the form (!) of BDSM = kneeling, shove, grabbing) are a disservice to the BDSM community (!!)

My question to Larian or the romance lead developer is: Should be assumed, the kisses should make players, including BDSM lovers, feel bad? With using BDSM elements against them? Sorry, i am just curious. Because if the intention was to make players feel bad (when players feel "bad" while playing a game, most of us quit playing, by the way) or to show how the partner realistic (?) "abuses" the character in relationships, then why there was a need to add kneeling, grabbing and a playful shove from the reallife kink community? Using BDSM elements and turn them into victim / non-con fantasies in a kiss to make the players (including the BDSM community) feel bad [infact also harming, causing depressions and PTSD flashbacks to survivors of abuse] or to show "abuse" in relationships is gross. More than gross. Very questionable. In my opinion.

Changing the player's character into consenting would be appreciated for many reasons.

+1
I will respectfully never buy any piece of media that this person has a hand in making.

This developer has a BA in Liberal Arts. They do not have a PhD in psychology. The desire to make only their female/queer audience feel bad about their sexual desires (is this the 1800's?), and to "punish" them via simulating abuse (bold of you to assume your audience has not experienced such harsh 'lessons' in their real life already) is really gross.

It's literally the "you deserve this" logic.

How did this pass quality control with Larian? Punishing women for the their lusts? Really?

Assuming that we even *choose* those options based off of our lusts, and not our own personal RP desires and storytelling. I just wanted to have fun and be evil. But Larian won't let me because I'm a woman who had sexy thoughts about a pixel man and I need to be taught a lesson?

This is 2024! Women and queer players have more thoughts in their brain besides sinful sex that needs to be punished.

What in the purity culture is this?

Larian, get some quality control and treat your female and queer audience with some respect.

This situation is going to age like milk.

EDIT to add onto what @Ghost said.
I do think it's also a mistake to dip into the fanfic pool with writing and adding on to canon bits of the game. As an example: one of the most popular AA fics (where AA is bad man to the PC and "loses his soul") is written by someone who has neither played the AA path, nor has finished the game. There is a decent portion of AA negative fics by players who have not played the path and do not understand the full scope of it, and simply wish to write angst because they dislike the character.

Using that as a basis for writing canon material... actually explains a lot of why the writing feels so inconsistent. And is a perfect example of why it's not a good idea.

It looks like I was careless with my terminology (sorry, I didn't mean to offend. I'm on a bit of a learning curve here). I definitely did not want to give the impression that the Patch 6 Kisses depict BDSM rather than A.Astarion abusing the Player Character. I think we discussed earlier the type of porn the kisses resemble earlier in this thread, and I understand that they are definitely not what fans who are into BDSM would want to see. So, apologies for giving the wrong impression in my post.



I couldn't agree more. I think also that this is doing a disservice to fan-fic writers as there is a lot of fan art out there which is actually SFW.

Interestingly, there is a thread on Reddit today and another on my Discord both arguing that it would have been nice if the playerbase could have had a relationship with the NPCs that wasn't totally based on sex, ie: a platonic friendship. Both threads got quite a bit of support.
I think the idea that all players are only interested in their pixel-pals if they can have sex with them is erroneous, especially in a game like BG3 which is story driven.



100% Agreed. I really hope Larian consider this rather than waiting to see if an official complaint is made.



Absolutely a romance should be fun, not a slice of real life in it's worst form.


I agree 100%

So I want to say that the idea that you should ONLY feel playing a game or that game writers should never try to make the player feel "bad" is on its face wrong. The game is a story, and in that story there are going to be ups and downs. You feel bad at the beginning when we're told we're on a clock to get the tadpoles out. That's anxiety-inducing. Sometimes a game story is going to make you feel bad, sad, mad. That scene where you you get Astarion to bite the drow and he chews you out for it? That's definitely meant to make players feel bad. I also see nothing wrong, in principle, with creating a romance where you do have to deal with the negative aspects of a relationship. Things like arguments, the spark going away, etc. I think trying to approach like that is entirely justifiable and can be engaging and cathartic, and stuff on that level doesn't need a warning. Even introducing situations where a player can be on the recieving end of abuse, if clearly broadcast at the start, is entirely fine and valid and shouldn't be discouraged.

The problem with the kisses from patch 6 aren't that they were put in to make the player feel bad, it's that they did it in a specific, potentially very triggering way that is at odds with everything else about the story.I personally think that if the story had from the beginning set Astarion up to be abusive when he ascended, that's a perfectly reasonable route to take. They wouldn't even have needed to change much. But that's not what they wrote, and if the intent of the kiss was to portray that, then they did it in the laziest, most haphazard way possible and it soundly failed.

When the abuse starts the romance ends.

When the abuse starts the romance ends - and so does my interaction with the game.

Simply put I don't play escapist role playing games to be abused and whoever wrote these interactions needs a reality check if they believe gamers wanted this. I tried a few times to play again after patch 6 landed, but all the joy has gone out of it for me.

Seems a strange way to sell a game to people.

That's a very valid perspective and as I said, I believe the implementation in the game is bad and a total failure if we are right about the intention. But I'll also point you to the entire horror genre. Hell, I'll point you to Undertale. The most on the surface fluffy and sweer escapist fare, but if you take its genocide route, that is clearly made to make players feel bad for taking it. To say that players blanket don't want abuse or bad feelings in games is demonstrably wrong. It's simply a matter of how and when. An out of place cut scene added months after release is neither how nor when players want it.