Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Well it's a shame that a romance with Tav can be interpreted that way. Because it never was. Otherwise it's not a romance.
Astarion actually looks down on mortals from above. Tav doesn't. So even with mortal Tav, he shares decadence and pleasures.
Probably Astarion on the path of ascension views Tav - them together forever as an unbreakable union, from above all.

A fandom whose toxicity is legendary is Dragon Age. I haven't had the pleasure of playing this game.
Solas, so let's take Solas, he's a dark character and give him two paths, one in which he becomes lighter and another in which he embraces the dark side completely.
And he's being rougher and more arrogant in his romance with Tav.
Which makes sense from the fact that he's always been a narcissist and was held back by his lack of power, and now he's a Lord, the world's first living vampire.

In Solas' case it was one character, he stayed as he was.
Astarion is one character who is divided into the light and dark paths.
Astarion was originally a dark character. Although light path followers see this as his trauma and the aftermath of his trauma.
Supporters of the dark path recognize the artbook and believe that such darkness is part of Astarion's nature.
Given the fandom's sentiment towards the dark path, that it's not Evil Win, but because he could have gotten better and “grown” turns into a terrible tragedy of a personality.
Evil character growth is also growth. An evil character can love. Evil characters are full of nuance.
Astarion especially.
Considering it's one character.
So it's harder to find the safe space, you have to realize whether the author thinks you should put ash on your head and accept the suffering, the tragedy of the beautiful person he could have been, now not himself, dead...
Or whether he's as fond of evil characters as you are and sees a lot of different traits in them, he's himself, and it's fun and interesting.

I wouldn't even say Astarion is getting any darker.

Getting darker and showing everything that's inside are different things.
That's what I understood and felt.
He was held back by his lack of power, his desire for protection, to be on a team (tadpole), what else does he need, so he helps, his self-esteem, he hated his status as a slave, even the fact that his tormentor took the sun away from him.
So I don't see it as some sort of really changing him for the worse, I'm finally seeing all of his worst side.
But since he's big and mean now all his gentle words are instantly taken as lies, manipulation, he could have gotten better, and since he didn't lost himself owari da

Everything AA does is an ultimatum lie and he's about to go insane starting to put trophy-Tav on stakes in a leash for misbehavior.
I mean, so choosing the morally right path without ascension is easier and more pleasant reload when the other's choice is endless suffering on stakes.

Yeah, Dark Urge has been completely forgotten about.
Meanwhile Tav was supposed to be Dark Urge in the original concept.
Dark literally loves the pain. And Astarion reaching his index finger down after twirling “yes my treasure” is almost impossible that Dark would be scared of him.
\and if my Tav is almost like Dark Urge, for example m-m\

I mean, the story may be fine for Tav, but not for a Dark Urge. Dark Urge & Astarion see the world completely differently together as a couple and from my perspective their romance, love or whatever is a little different than the romance with a Tav. Astarion is not only decadent and glamorous, he wants to rule the world and he can happily see Bhaal's army as a worthy dowry or go sneaking around to "Papa" to become son-in-law of the year. My Dark Urge still throws him off the cliff every now and then.


I think everyone should be able to chose how Astarion kisses Tav/Dark Urge. Astarion always loves his romance, regardless of whether it's Tav, evil Tav or Dark Urge.

For me, the story between the Dark Urge and Ascended Astarion often doesn't fit, even though they should complement each other perfectly. They share a similar fate, understand each other's perspectives and support each other in every situation and, depending on the situation, they are similarly power-hungry and cruel. And yes, my Dark Urge also puts up with his jokes, although he's funnier when he doesn't want to be funny. And then come the moments where Astarion tells complete nonsense and the story goes to hell.:(

I see.
I played Dark Urge on my first playthrough as well. Which of course surprised me and I immediately saw that murderous side in Astarion more clearly.
“Killing together is a bonding” thing.
So a small but effective genocide of 7k vampire spawns...
Yeah, I have some bit sadness that Tav and DU can't make references to Astarion's past phrases - that would be interesting for the novel. Maybe it's there, in the text, but as a response to Tav\Du hm.

For romance, it was best to add “I love you” phrases for each companion.

However, at this point I want the face in the kisses to match the meaning of February 14. And not to be changed again.
Especially since the author of Astarion left Larian.
I'm not sure about the unrealized ideas that didn't have enough time.
However, when adding something that wasn't known - it would be a question of whether it should have been that way anyway.

I almost hate to say it, but I'm afraid that 7000 souls is the lower fun limit for the Dark Urge. You can't change your past, even if you play a good Durge. If you then consider what the Dark Urge did, sacrificing the 7000 vampire spawns for the salvation of your love would probably be the least of it.

In my last playthrough I was a good Dark Urge and didn't let Astarion ascend. It was an overall great experience, but more like the Dark Urge story in the Bhaal Temple. Since I die and Withers won't let death control me as long as Withers has the power to do so, the Dark Urge is basically as immortal as Spawn Astarion and at least he doesn't have to watch the Dark Urge grow old and die. But after Cazador's death, I never told Astarion that he didn't need the power he had lost and that I would protect him; I would have found that demeaning to Astarion. If you are evil, Astarion loves your Dark Urge before entering the grove. If you are good... I often had the feeling that I was so boring that my companions abandoned me in the forest at night... even Wyll.

As a Dark Urge you are the reason why Astarion is "free" and I love it when he first scolds me and 2 seconds later thanks me for being such an evil bastard. Yes, Astarion reacts to the story of the Durge and that's not the case with Tav. At least I'm happy to be an evil Durge again and Astarion will ascend.

The kisses are just one thing, I'm less emotional about them but I can certainly understand it. Like I said, the scared face doesn't bother me for romantic reasons.

I thought you said you didn't like the fear on Tav\DU's face during those kisses.
But you don't mind the way it's done.

It's hard for me to say something, since the face has ruined them for me at the moment.
The smile from the poster, though.
I've always loved the wilder side of Astarion and exploring it, seeing what it's like, how my character will help him embrace it and find it for himself without the judgment of someone who shares and wants to share everything.
well, you see what's happening here even Dark Urge paralyzed with fear of the knees of evil.

Oh, in addition to the face there's a movement problem, I guess that's a common problem. So that the character model doesn't have too “own” temperament.
I don't know, I wish Tav was more tactile on their own, touching his hand. That could probably be solved with a hug.

I can say the same vibe and Astarion's divisions into: gentle sweet and rough wild. Not too good for the character.
- So originally the face-grabbing kiss was Astarion Original before the ritual for Karlach.
- Ascended Astarion and can kiss his hand very gently during the night.
It's a balance in him.

My other complaint is that the player doesn't explore and immerse themselves in this Astarion thing. Which could fit him. I'm referring to the power dynamics.

I already left my other complaints and suggestions and more detailed in other threads.

Yes, I said I don't like the facial expression, but not for sexual or romantic reasons, but because the Dark Urge a) doesn't kneel and b) doesn't look at anyone like that. This is a story killer for me. Even if I reject Bhaal, the Dark Urge becomes something like the Chosen of Jergal, he becomes the Challenger of Gods. There is no way that the Dark Urge will kneel in fear of Astarion. They can and should be equal in their, from my point of view, strange kind of love.

Yes, it would be nice to be able to hug him in many situations or to be able to react to him better, like I can hug Shadowheart, for example.

Like I said, they should let people choose whether AA's kisses are gentle or painful.

I really wanted to play the redeeming Dark Urge with the Ascended Astarion. I can't do that now, because when it comes to those kisses, it's going to ruin everything. I ridiculously skipped the DU in the first playthrough, considered him a future companion, that version didn't have an explanatory line yet (or I had a bug), and at the end of Act 1 before moving to the Shadow-Cursed Lands, I was concentrating on walking around wherever I was, peering into every nook and cranny and looking for where this dragonborn son of Bhaal could hide. I'm not very close to the idea of “canons” where you play either “good” and have to do this or “evil” and have to do that. The main reason to reject Bhaal for me (from what I've learned about the DU) is that moment when the Dark Urge can kill one's lover. I think I would hate this something that sits in my head trying to dictate such a thing to me, and would want with all my might to get rid of it, to defy it. No deity however good or evil would dare to dictate to my character. I think rejection of Bhaal for the DU can be seen not only as “ redemption” for the sake of some good or for the sake of the world, but also as liberation, something like, “ F**k you, Bhaal!”.

I think in this case, the DU might not be completely “good”, but help Astarion simply for Astarion's own sake, because he wants to. I also had Tav being chaotic, in general all other choices except Ascension could be classified as “good”, but in the process of passing she regularly did things that could be described as conventionally “evil”, harsh retorts where it was wanted, the periodic use of intimidation. I think in this case, the DU might not be completely “good”, but help Astarion simply for Astarion's own sake, because he wants to. Tav I had was also chaotic, in general all other choices except Ascension could be classified as “good”, but in the course of going through she regularly did things that could be called conventionally “evil”, harsh retorts where it was wanted, periodic use of Intimidation. Actions like killing Gandrell, intimidating Abdirak during torture, sending the goblin into the shadows, and all sorts of little things that don't seem to lead to any “evil” result for the game as a whole, but the character doesn't look too kind and naive, and even more so doesn't look like a person who will shake with fear on her knees in front of her beloved Astarion. Yes, with the modder's altered facial expressions, it does appear that Tav adores Astarion and happily plays with him in his new “quirks”, but only two of the three kisses have been corrected, and of course we need Larian to fix their “kissing fail” themselves.

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to the Astarion/Dark Urge romance. I was pretty sure I was going to start this game right away after the first, long and in-depth playthrough (the first playthrough always makes you want to see everything you can and get into every hole, every chest and closet), I didn't even bother restarting when I found out the DU was supposed to be me. I just really wanted to not roll back and see the story further. I barely finished the game with patch 5 in time to have at least one happy story in my memory. The DU option was canceled with patch 6, to go through to Ascension only to then be interrupted for who knows how long, or to get into those three domestic violence bubbles, it just seems like something pointless.

And yes, I really want to hug Astarion too, it's an outrage that I can hug people who are far from important to me and Astarion can't be hugged. And for Tav to not be a puppet during kisses, but to touch Astarion with love, the way it should be.

I think the relationship between a Dark Urge and Astarion is very deep and intense because they are so similar and understand each other.

On the night you are supposed to kill the person you love, you are not yet in a relationship with Astarion, but the conversation is one of the most beautiful conversations between them and later Astarion says for the first time that he cares for you and that it is worth the risk is.

When it comes to the story of the Dark Urge, you shouldn't forget what the Urge actually is and the Durge cannot defend himself against it. Before the dagger in his head it probably didn't matter to him but now he can of course say that he doesn't want that and defend himself and Astarion will help you, because he know what you feel.

Personally, I can't play anything other than Dark Urge, preferably Drow and Bard. I prefer to play alone with Astarion, the rest can stay in the camp. So he has even more texts that other companions might otherwise say.

I agree with you, the romance with DUrge and Astarion is the most intense and romantic. I really love it. IF I play it one more time I will have a hard time not picking DUrge and Astarion again..

Ok, I mean romance ... but ok, you can go to the Bloodservant (I hate this way) or kill Yurgir. In my "timing" the romance is far away .

Edit:

A Question ...

Yes I agree, there need to be an emotional understanding to write about those topics and it must be done very carefully. As well as consulting medical and psychological experts to check the appropriateness of the portrayal and possible impacts for an interactive story. Especially in a mainstream RPG, which isn't horror, it's problematic to throw in such topics in the way, it was done with BG3: Disconnected from the story and without player agency.
Besides that: Overall, in the romance story, I think some of the possible answers for the players do not take any emotional level into account. In some places - for whatever reason - how a compassionate or sensitive character would react was completely ignored in the romance. A lack of emotionality and a lack of consistency in a story is fatal, if the story wants to touch upon the topic of "abuse" in an "interactive (")romance(")". Romance in quotes, because as Ametris rightly said, (sexual) abuse is not in the definition of romance.
You said that "partner abuse" was seen in a cutscene in "The Cat Lady", also sexual abuse? Is there a scene anywhere in a game where the player character is sexually abused (non-con)? If someone knows one, I'd like to look it up.

Now I'll get back to what I wanted to ask, before Marielle posted that interesting lecture of Larian's romance feature lead, which gives a lot of insight. What does it mean to "lose the soul"? In general in DnD? Do and how do characters change after the loss of their soul? Are there examples? (Without referring to Astarion)

Yeah, yeah, that's exactly how I wanted to play it now, with the DU and two with Astarion, to get the most out of Astarion and the most out of my relationship with him. Damn, if I had overplayed then and taken the DU, I probably wouldn't have finished the game before patch 6, it wouldn't have been any fun at all either... I would have liked to hear caring words from Astarion. And to get recognition through Yurgir, rather than Oblodra. The Oblodra scene is much easier to get if you play without spoilers in the blind playthrough - she's encountered right away in the Moon Towers, and Yurgir has yet to be reached. Does Dark Urge have any option for a more violent interaction with Oblodra? Or the same lines (or rather, lack thereof) as Tav? Honestly, it's pretty frustrating that there are so many NPCs in the game that you can insult or do cruel things to, and yet when a loved one is insulted in front of you, called an actual slave, and you can't in any way teach her a lesson for it. I didn't even realize at first to ask Astarion why he didn't want to bite her and I didn't know about her tainted blood because I was really angry with her, but... From the answers only, “He said everything.” You can say that line out loud in a Don Corleone tone, sure, and kill her in Act 3, but I still wish my character could have acted tougher towards her.


Absolutely. Horror stories rarely give opportunities for roleplaying, they are more likely to have a set story. When the player's participation is so suppressed, and the player character is made into a victim puppet for the sake of “showing a story” (a story of violence, moreover), it violates all the laws of the RPG genre.


I agree. There are very few options to show love, understanding and empathy, this aspect of the relationship is severely neglected. In many of the heavy plot points, when Astarion talks about his past, Tav doesn't react in any way, like a stone dummy. Neither supporting Astarion nor trying to comfort him is possible. In the scene of reading the scars, the lines are terrible, it's impossible to ask him to turn around politely. In the same scene with Oblodra, you can't stand up for him properly, show that you not only respect his autonomy, but that you are ready to “popularly explain to anyone who tries to encroach on that autonomy how they are wrong”. I would also have liked, in that scene in Act 3, when Astarion says at the entrance to the city that he sees Baldur for the first time in the light of day, to take his hand and stand by him, or at least say something supportive. But the worst thing about it is the dialog after Ascension, the line, “I want your body”, or “I want to become a vampire” and that's it, nothing a loving person could say. And the fact that you can't show Astarion how wonderful and how precious he is to you after the 'mind-reading' check: “He thinks you're degrading yourself by staying with him...” This for me is the hardest moment in the romance of this game (not counting the “new kisses”), it's better to ignore and not pass this check. In the epilogue, you can't confess your love to him, Tav (again against the player's wishes) makes a sour face, you can't hug or kiss him at the party. And like, yeah, sexual abuse is clearly not part of the definition of romance.


For example, zombies don't have souls. In D&D, the soul is you. There's a body, a soul, and an animus. We remove the soul, the animus and the body remain - this can be controlled by magic. The soul after death goes to the fields of Kelemvor, that is, you will be there, but your body can be raised as undead by some necromancer, but you will not know about it. A revenant can inhabit any body with his soul, the joint functioning of a specially prepared body and the soul of a revenant create an animus. The lich places his soul in the phylactery - the phylactery is a focuser and the phylactery allows the necromancer to interact with the body, controlling it with the animus produced by the interaction between the soul, the phylactery and the dead body chosen for control. For example, the skeleton raised by Balthazar is controlled by the animus, and its “brother”, sewn from pieces of flesh, contains, most likely, also a soul. Ghouls have preserved scraps of soul (incomplete soul, its remains), so they can live and feed (they feed not only on the flesh, but also on the victim's animus), but they are rather stupid, because only scraps of soul remain. The soul is essentially your self, the body is the physical receptacle, and the animus is the magical animating substance that allows it all to function. Death knights have their soul in their sword, destroy the sword and you destroy the knight.

One cannot lose a soul, a soul can be stolen, a soul can be completely split or destroyed (the devils have soul coins, the material for the wall of Kelemvor is the souls of unbelievers who gradually become part of that wall) - this is true death, nothingness. There are creatures without a soul - a magic skull (this skull will be stupider than the one in which the soul is enclosed, but will be able to speak coherently and follow instructions). If the skull is bound as a familiar, it uses its master's soul. You can steal a soul and encase it in something. You can weave several souls together in one body, endowing the subject with the desired qualities, but if the ritual is unsuccessful, we will end up with something similar to a split/personality disorder, as the souls will compete with each other for control of the body.

The effect on the personality can only be exerted by magic or psionic influence. In order for this effect to be permanent, a focuser is needed, but this is not applied to the soul, but to the consciousness of the bearer.

Told DM when we were playing necromancers, I've now verified the information with him.

No, there are no changes to the text between Dark Urge and Tav, neither in Oblodra nor in Yurgir. With Yurgir you can chose different ways to deal with him and Raphael's demands.

Of course, Oblodra is the easier route and many will have chosen this route in their first playthrough. I don't like it when Astarion wants a romance with me because he is grateful.

Depending on your text selection in Act 3, both AA and Spawn Astarion will want to protect you from Oblodra or comment on them. They react differently.


According to Withers, mindflyers have no soul.

Absolutely. It's one thing when it's a small Indie game made by one or a couple of people, but when it's a mainstream game it's a completely different story. It would need even more care than usual because of the expectation from a game company like for instance Larian and the reach the game would get. Thrown in casually in an exisiting popular game it would never ever work.
I honestly think they just forgot or misunderstood what a romance really is while getting carried away making "sexy" scenes.


There is unwanted/forced sexual advances and stalking more than once by male characters. I can not recall any sexual abuse from a partner or similar, but it is a long time since I played it. It's mainly a story of revenge (and forgiveness) and hunting demons, so it is in that you as player get satisfaction. The character growth is really good.


A very good point. I think it's a reason we don't see victim/abuse stories in RPG's like BG3, it just don't fit. If they do somehow make it work (in another project, not with Astarion!) I would be very surprised and maybe intrigued(in a curious neutral way). It would still not be a romance though if the premise is partner abuse. Only way I have seen romance and abuse in the same story is if the ex is the abuser and the new romance is the rescuer. Kinda like Astarion and Tav getting revenge on Cazador and freeing Astarion from his abuser to live togheter forever in eternal love. It was the best romance story I have come across so far, so I hope we can get back to that in the next update.

I have also seen Dark romance been called a trope, and been given the feeling a Vampire romance is somehow boring and overdone. But I have not seen any romance like Astarion and Tav in any other game I have played. I think it is really unique the way it is done in BG3 and the story is really good. I just hope it isn't thrown away for the sake of making something "exciting and new" because it truly is excellent as it is. Name me a game with a Dark romance as deep as you can get with Astarion and I will happily look it up.

Honestly I haven't seen many dark vampire romances like Astarion's in any media, period. The closest analogies I can think of are Spike and Buffy, and maybe Lestat/whover he's macking on in any given book. I know it's variable because Tav can be played in several ways, but I'm more thinking about dark romances with vampire or vampire-like characters (I know a lot of people compare him to Jareth but Sarah is literally a child so that doesn't count to me) where the vampire has a really strong, charismatic personality. I've been burned by a lot of books that promised me a spicy vampire romance but the vamp in question was just...a depressed wet noodle.

It's a shame DU doesn't add anything to the first meeting with her, really, I wasn't really banking on it, or I'm sure someone would have posted about it...

In the third act you can still have fun killing her by pouring out her potion, she'll be pissed off that you messed up her life's work. I loved Astarion's line about wanting to see her dead body in a sewer somewhere. I then dragged her body that way to dump it in the sewers like he asked, it's hilarious. At that lovely time while I could still make out passionately with him afterwards.


In D&D, illithids, like all living sentient beings, have a soul. They are part of the Far Realm and outside of it, their souls would fall, most likely, into the Astral Sea. But their souls do not, and cannot, belong to the gods, so Withers as Jergal's scribe may well say so. Their souls are useless to the gods; to the gods it is like saying “no soul”. All the souls of the beings of the Far Realm seek to return to their plane, but since it is far away, they are likely to settle in the Astral Sea.


By the way, the story is perceived completely differently if you play as a given character than if you play as a sort of “yourself”. The only way I can imagine where there could be some cruelty in a romance is if you imagine a story with a kidnapping or captivity, and that should be the beginning of a story that then develops. For example, if the already self ascended “Astarion”, who had no help from anyone, who achieved everything on his own, killed everyone who got in his way etc, lonely and evil, picks up Tav, dying after some fight, and makes a spawn. At first there might be conflict and attempts at “enslavement”, then Tav might find some information about their captor, get to know him more, learn his plight, there might be some dialogs between them. Help him in an emergency, causing the same surprise as with “Really?” in Act 2, then gradual bonding and romance. For example. But I truly want to see that story as you described, it really is the best love story ever, and to live together in eternal love. How could such a beautiful story be ruined, why? In order to “show abusive behavior” instead of such a touching and heartfelt story?


Of course! I've never seen a romance like Astarion either, and if anyone ever does something like this in its worthy incarnation, I'll run right out to buy it!


Nightmare... Reminds me of Astarion, who was denied Ascension. Well, he's certainly not a noodle, but depressed.

Marielle, thank you for all the information. It's not so easy to understand as a non english speaker. But yes, if I would think of being soulless, I would think of zombies, a husk, which would act on instinct or command. I read, that soulless creatures cannot feel emotions. So, with that explanation in mind, I don't think anyone actually believes that Astarion can "lose" his soul. Metaphorically, perhaps, but most likely it should serve as a pure insult to Astarion and his lovers.

Yes, it may be unique, of course for me it is. Not the best romance story I've seen, but quite very good, especially Astarion's sarcasm, his personality, his questline and a lot of the romance and flirt scenes. Voice acting and mocap are great. Vampire romances are not overdone, at least, not for me: it's great to play same sex. I wouldn't have played it without that. I just know japanese game novels / mangas / fanfiction with some nice m/m dark romances, but it's not the same as an RPG. The choices in game novels are also limited and mostly tend to lead to who with whom. But, well, to be honest. The best dark romances are in our heads. No one can write stories as well as my imagination. Thank you brain. You complete my gaming experience.

Right, like The beauty and the Beast story. That is true, but abusive behavior in such a romance story is often very light and stops completely when the captor realizes their love for whom they have taken. And I think it needs to be light in order to be believable. In a game you would need to make the player also sympathise with the captor for them to develop the romance. Abusive behaviour like in the recent patch 6, pushed players to leave the romance. To make players stay you would make them believe in the romance as much as a character would. And I'm not wanting that kind of story for this romance either, my headcannon is a dark romance.



Haha, very true!