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I'm very grateful to the modder who made this but unfortunately I won't be able to benefit as, like a lot of players, I am on console.
I also have to agree with Zayir that the mod helps a lot but it does make things look a little strange at times, especially the throat grab and the kneeling animations. I'm not trying to disparage their work, but I really feel Larian should make adjustments themselves.

Since some players have been very vocal in the wish to see the Player Character looking terrified and abused, I'm coming around to the idea that a choice might be a good thing to offer as long as the game makes it absolutely specific that the expressions as they are now, may be triggering.
That way anyone who wants to RP the 'cycle of abuse' where their Tav hates being with Astarion but for some reason won't break up with him and keeps asking him for kisses, can do that.

I accept this is Larian's game and it is entirely up to them if they make changes or not. That said, I will think very carefully before I purchase another game from them until it is in its definitive edition and I can be certain the content will not change.
I know there are companies out there who make money out of selling abuse as entertainment, but I don't wish to give anyone who does that my support.


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I don't see why Larian can't come up with something that can cater to both scenarios without having kisses that trigger players doing the romance.

I did mention this in another thread where as an improvement for a kiss I though it would look better if Tav bit Astarion after which Astarion holds Tav back looking at her (where we can wonder what is he gonna do) before kissing Tav deeply. And Starryphonic mentions that in that scenario a slightly conserned face would be appropriate. Which I agree with, although I would maybe like a sly face more. And that is just one option for a kiss that I don't think would be so problematic (assuming it is done right) and would potentially work for many more players.

Instead of a throat grab I had also the idea of making it so he has his hand on Tavs cheek and his thumb under her chin pushing Tavs head upwards to meet his lips. I'm not sure if it would be acceptable to everybody, just a thought to make it more accessable but still with the kink. He would still be dominating with the potential to do a throat grab even though he doesn't in the scene.

And just my opinion here but I think the game should try and include as many players as possible and leave the mods to cater to the extreme ends in the romance scale. Not the other way around.

Larian has the means to do this, and make it playable for everyone. I still have hopes for us and them.

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Originally Posted by KiraMira
(...) Instead of a throat grab I had also the idea of making it so he has his hand on Tavs cheek and his thumb under her chin pushing Tavs head upwards to meet his lips. I'm not sure if it would be acceptable to everybody, just a thought to make it more accessable but still with the kink. He would still be dominating with the potential to do a throat grab even though he doesn't in the scene.

Oh yes, there were many ways to make the kisses more mainstream, and I read some nice and great ideas. In Astarion's case Larian went for a harder "D/s" version (in quotation mark, because if it were consensual on Tav's side), which I'm honestly very grateful and happy about, because there are unfortunately hardly any other games where we could see or play a D/s (a few BL game novels perhaps, which cannot be compared to an RPG).
I really do love the throat grab and Astarion shoving Tav away in the kneel and in the bite kiss, and would be happy only to change Tav to show consensus and enjoyment, so it would actually be D/s and in line with the chosen "Oh come on, let it hurt". In the romance scene to give the player a choice was perfectly done. <3

At the risk of repeating myself, I love Astarion's animation in the new kisses and hope Astarion himself stays the same or similar as he is there. And that Tav's sad, contempt and unlust expressions get changed, so that Tav acts as a partner, enjoys the kissing and doesn't act as if he suddenly would detest his lover or has no desire in kissing - in kisses which Tav himself is asking for.


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KiraMira I like your ideas a lot. Personally, I'd be happy with both of those suggestions but I can see that players who want the D/s RP might find them a little too tame. So I think offering a choice tied to 'gentle/make it hurt' would be ideal.


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I've read through this thread but forgive me if I'm mentioning things that have come up before. I just finished the game with a romanced Ascended Astarion and a few things came to mind.


1. During the end of the final battle, Astarion made it very clear he thought Tav should control the brain, and obviously I chose to destroy it, but there's absolutely no mention of this from him in any of the ensuing conversations. I don't think he should break up with Tav over it (partly because I think he knows as well as Tav that the brain can't be trusted, even when it seems to be controlled. And partly because it would obviously break every conversation you have with him after). But I do think he should have some reaction. It could be as simple as an offhand comment, which could be either condescending ("It's a shame your ambition faltered at the last minute, but no matter.") or kinder ("I know I was determined that our path to taking Baldur's Gate would be through the brain, but you were right to be more level headed than me.") And that could lead really well into the "What comes next" question. It could be something he says unprompted, or there could be a dialog option in the first part of the bedroom conversation for Tav to say something like, "I'm sorry I chose to destroy the brain. I think there are better ways for us to grow our power."

It's just really odd because the nature of their relationship at this point is that Tav is meant to be "wonderfully obedient" and they basically disobeyed a direct order, or at least a very strong suggestion, and it's something Astarion has made clear that he's wanted even before he learned of the Rite of Ascension. He should acknowledge that it didn't happen, however he feels about the result. In fact the first time I played the ending I chose to control the brain, wondering if he would break up with me if I didn't, and when the game cut to credits I knew that meant he doesn't break up with Tav, since I was aware of the epilogue party and all that.

2. After turning Tav, Astarion mentions that their vampirism is probably muted because of the tadpole, and removing it will likely result in further changes. He acknowledges as much if you try to break up with him, saying that now that the tadpole is gone, you're pretty much stuck with him. But if you don't try to do that, there's no acknowledgment at any point, from him, from the narrator, or from other characters observing you, of any outward or internal changes. I don't know precisely what those changes are meant to be, but I'm assuming that at the very least, Tav's eyes will turn red and they'll become paler and grow fangs (it's weird that they haven't already, but I get that that would probably interfere with the player wanting to use the magic mirror). Maybe their bloodlust starts to kick in. Maybe there's simply some mention from the narrator during the dock scene that when you look at Astarion now, you feel some strange connection, not unlike with the tadpole, but only for him. I don't know, but Tav has fundamentally changed and it would be nice to see that acknowledged, the way it is for other characters who've undergone physical changes, like mindflayer Karlach.

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I totally agree. I cannot understand why larian did this. First: Astarion being mean in the new kiss scenes is SO out of character. It has been said before and I totally agree. He can see you as his pet and still love you. Like we all do with our cats and dogs.

Second: Why in the world is tav reacting fearful, disgusted or whatever. This is the worst. I mean in the WHOLE game you can always choose your reaction in dialoque options if you approve, disapprove, are angry or afraid because it is an RPG. But in this scene larian chooses FOR YOU and this is just wrong. It is inaapropriate and disrespectful towards the player who can make their own descisions in the game and have their own emotions and thoughts. Since it is an adult game the players need not be patronized.

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Astarion, the vampire who wanted freedom from his oppressor and wants a great amazing life, which is what we all want. He is Astarion, no matter which path you want to play in the game. Larian needs to make both paths have a consensual romantic option for both paths.

For the UA side to have some great kisses as they have asked.

For the AA side, to not insert things we did not ask for and that are out of character.

We want a great role playing game that should not break any headcanons (I do not want to have others' headcanons pushed on me, nor will I push my headcanons on others). I just want a great game with possibilities that everyone can enjoy and have fun in their own personal game.

I hope Larian listens and sees that is all that people who romance him, truly want.

We love our vampire, whether he is a spawn or a Lord. He also LOVES Tav in both paths as well. It should be available to be role played by those who love Astarion & his personality. No one should be forced on either side of a romance.

Last edited by DarkAngelBeckons; 19/05/24 01:43 AM.

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I've talked to a lot of people lately. They are both ascension fans and neutrals.
Some people don't turn the game on after Valentine's Day.
Another person neutral was interested in learning the “evil” of the path, ascension, and having fun playing.
Not after being forced to be locked into the role of victim. They played an ally and lover, willing to do anything and certainly not afraid of anything.
Now they can't and wasn't. And plays friendship.
Whoever wanted to destroy this romance has quite succeeded.

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I fit the category of not turning the game on after Valentines Day. I have tried once or twice but all the pleasure in playing has left so - effectively so have I.
Didn't want to move on, still had things I wanted to do but - not playing a game to be made a victim of partner abuse oddly turned out to be quite high on my list of priorities.

Odd that isn't it?


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Originally Posted by Bethra
I fit the category of not turning the game on after Valentines Day. I have tried once or twice but all the pleasure in playing has left so - effectively so have I.
Didn't want to move on, still had things I wanted to do but - not playing a game to be made a victim of partner abuse oddly turned out to be quite high on my list of priorities.

Odd that isn't it?

It's almost as if depicting abuse in a game isn't actually the best way to get people to want to play your game.

(Especially when it's executed poorly)

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Hi all, I'm new here but I've been keeping up with this conversation for a while and finally wanted to share my thoughts.

I definitely agree with most of you and your sentiments about the changes that happened after the Valentine's kiss patch. It kind of felt like a slap to the face. It hurt. I thought maybe Larian caved to pressure from the loud minority (those who are are vocally anti-AA) or maybe someone on the team wanted to take it in this extreme direction, but I felt like those of us who love AA were being shamed. There are many of us, and we love him for all kinds of different reasons -- not just because everyone wants him to be sexy or dominant or whatever. It just feels disrespectful and thoughtless of them to do this to the fans, those of us who loved him and this romance. Those kisses were a change that affected the romance in a huge way.

I've sent a couple of emails to Larian explaining why I feel some changes should be made to the AA kisses (mainly our Tav/Durge's horrified/scared/upset facial expressions) and how triggering it was for many of us fans. I also asked if they could add the "regular" kiss back into the rotation along with the 3 new kisses, so that it's not always just those 3 abusive ones. But it's been a long time since then and I never got any response from Larian. I understand that they're overwhelmed with messages and can't answer them all but I can't help but feel a bit sad about it. They have remained very quiet about this issue as far as I know, and there hasn't been an update to the game in a long while.

Another thing I'd love to see is an epilogue kiss / the option to kiss Ascended Astarion during the epilogue. As far as I know, most of the other romantic partners can be kissed (?) but he can't. That is something I requested be added, though it's not as dire as the changes to the kisses. I also think the Netherbrain kiss (at the Morphic Pool) should be changed to something new... Right now, it's just one of the 3 kisses, the one where he bites you.

On a more positive note... I did want to say that I was very pleasantly surprised to see the new ending animation
(where Ascended Astarion lies in bed next to your character, and then offers his hand to you before you walk off together hand-in-hand).

I got emotional seeing that, because to me, this was proof that he IS still the same person he always was, and he does love our Tav/Durge very deeply still. It's a full circle moment that goes back to the confession scene in Act II, where he held out his hand / held your hand in that same way.
I will say that part was really beautiful and I was over the moon that they added this in. During my first playthrough, that scene wasn't there yet. But my second playthrough was as Dark Urge (chef's kiss Astarion romance with Durge) and that ending scene was there! So I am very thankful that this was at least added in. I may have cried some tears of joy seeing that. :')

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Originally Posted by Celesti4
Hi all, I'm new here but I've been keeping up with this conversation for a while and finally wanted to share my thoughts.

Hello, Celesti4! Thank you for taking the time to log in and say a few words.

Originally Posted by Celesti4
I definitely agree with most of you and your sentiments about the changes that happened after the Valentine's kiss patch. It kind of felt like a slap to the face. It hurt. I thought maybe Larian caved to pressure from the loud minority (those who are are vocally anti-AA)
Yeah, some people don't like the AA ending, well, or love it as a tragedy. The latter can easily be interpreted for UA - is discussion.
Those who don't like it most haven't even played it.
I don't think you should make content based on seeing the worst in it, especially kissing.
Some people say Astarion “I enjoy killing him every time, giving him to hunters, he's annoying” - maybe all then all content on Astarion should be with that audience in mind.

Originally Posted by Celesti4
But it's been a long time since then and I never got any response from Larian.
Larian doesn't give an answer, very rarely.
But I don't mind if they silently give back the ability to play Tav, who doesn't have to press “break up” which implies fear from the kiss. A satisfied Tav has more lines anyway. Especially Durge.

Originally Posted by Celesti4
Another thing I'd love to see is an epilogue kiss / the option to kiss Ascended Astarion during the epilogue.
Yeah, spawn doesn't have a kiss too, only a hug.
In the epilogue if everyone has one, they need Astarion as well.

Originally Posted by Celesti4
I will say that part was really beautiful and I was over the moon that they added this in.
It's great that you found nice things! They really were. We found a couple lines in the script that haven't been added to the game yet. Extracted a couple new lines from the game files that hadn't been added yet in game fully.here

We'll see what happens next

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Originally Posted by Celesti4
I definitely agree with most of you and your sentiments about the changes that happened after the Valentine's kiss patch. It kind of felt like a slap to the face. It hurt. I thought maybe Larian caved to pressure from the loud minority (those who are are vocally anti-AA) or maybe someone on the team wanted to take it in this extreme direction, but I felt like those of us who love AA were being shamed.

My thoughts exactly.


Originally Posted by Celesti4
Another thing I'd love to see is an epilogue kiss / the option to kiss Ascended Astarion during the epilogue. As far as I know, most of the other romantic partners can be kissed (?) but he can't. That is something I requested be added, though it's not as dire as the changes to the kisses. I also think the Netherbrain kiss (at the Morphic Pool) should be changed to something new... Right now, it's just one of the 3 kisses, the one where he bites you.

Both U.Astarion and A.Astarion seem to have come off badly from the kisses. A.Astarion got kisses that quite a few of us are absolutely unable to enjoy. While poor U.Astarion seems to have been neglected.


Originally Posted by Celesti4
On a more positive note... I did want to say that I was very pleasantly surprised to see the new ending animation
(where Ascended Astarion lies in bed next to your character, and then offers his hand to you before you walk off together hand-in-hand).

I got emotional seeing that, because to me, this was proof that he IS still the same person he always was, and he does love our Tav/Durge very deeply still.

I haven't seen that and I'm really looking forward to it now.

It is the inconsistency with the A.Astarion patch 6 kisses that bothers me the most. A.Astarion is not abusive in anyway towards the player character except in those kisses. They conflict with his dialogue and I think that is one of the reasons they are so shocking, there is nothing at all that would lead the player to expect to see their character frozen in terror and with an expression of fear after their romance partner is asked for a kiss.

What I think would have been better way would have been to let the player have those kisses as they are as an option for an origin playthrough, with dialogue choices to match.
That way the option to role play a warped and twisted version of Astarion who has been corrupted by the ritual would have been available and fully fleshed out. Obviously, I wouldn't want that to be the only option. Alas, too late now.

At the very least I think Larian should change Tav's expressions and body language on the kisses. I'd argue that they'd benefit from changing some of the camera angles too. I have seen those kisses on Youtube where the creator has used freecam so Tav's expression cannot be seen as much and they are actually hot, with a frightend Tav they're ruined for me.
I really like the fact that ascension changes Astarion, making him more possessive and darker, I'd just want the option to RP as a Tav who enjoys this dynamic.

The mind-reading just before Tav is turned is also a sticking point for me, as I think the player should be given the option to rebutt Astarion's notion that:
a) Tav is degrading themselves
and
b) Being degraded is something they enjoy.

We desperately need some dialogue options here or just remove it, because if the player cannot respond to this information, it is completely pointless.


And welcome to the forum Celesti4! I joined here specifically to make my feelings known after Patch 6 and I have to say, this is probably the best platform for discussing the romance with A.Astarion. The arguments may get circular at times, but they've been civil and I've personally enjoyed exchanging views with other users.
With such vocal support for the 'cycle of abuse' narrative on places like X and Reddit, it's nice to be able to express a dissenting view and have an adult conversation about it.


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Hello and welcome Celesti4!!! I also enjoy the AA path and I am glad you are here! <3 Please have a good time while here, just remember if you run up against anyone you don't like how they speak to you, block them, and then enjoy the great Astarion discussions! Enjoy! <3

We have several threads on suggestions and feedback for us to give to Larian. Hopefully, they will listen. Hopefully, they will fix the problem areas on both sides of the romance and then we all get to be happy. I hope all gets resolved in Patch 7 smile

To me, the only bad ending for Astarion is the zombie ending.


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To echo what others have said, welcome Celesti4! This so far is the best bit of dedicated Astarion discussions I've found on the internet, and I also joined just to throw my voice in the ring.

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Thank you so much LiryFire, Sereda2, DarkAngelBeckons, and starryophonic for such a kind welcome! <3 I'm glad this forum exists so we can discuss this romance together in a non-judgmental way, rather than just sticking to one narrative like in some other places.

Thank you LiryFire for sharing those new lines that were found, I loved them, very interesting! I'm happy that
even if you decide to go to the Hells, A.Astarion doesn't break up with you and wants to continue your lives together when you see him again during the epilogue party! That is awesome.
I'm excited to see if more does get added to the romance with the next patch, too. Here's hoping our concerns will be addressed! I love Larian, I just feel strongly about certain things needing to be changed.

Sereda2, I completely agree about how heavy the narrative is on Reddit (and other places) about the whole cycle of abuse and why going down the AA route is awful etc. Aggressively so. I see people getting attacked just for having a different opinion on it than that. I never saw it as something so negative, and I do prefer his Ascended version very much. It's so much more nuanced than "Oh he becomes the next Cazador and is abusive." No. He's such a great character either way, but me personally I prefer the feel of the AA romance, and even the dark aspects of it.
I hope you will get to play to the end to watch that ending scene! It made me emotional in a good way that they added that in, especially since I wasn't expecting it at all. It felt like they were bringing things full circle for us. It does seem like that patch was inconsistent – it's almost like it was an incomplete idea that they were still workshopping, but the abusive kisses still got through.
I agree, I feel like those kisses and other things about the romance should be based on options we made during the game (as mentioned before, for example, when we tell him "Be gentle" or "Make it hurt"). And that's a great point you made about the fact that we can't respond to the mind reading part. That always bothered me too. We should be able to bring it up to him.

Yes agreed, I also felt bad that Un-ascended romance only got one extra kiss from the Valentine's patch. frown And we also get to see that kiss before he ascends. I hope more get added at some point. I fully agree the facial expressions should be changed – or maybe different camera angles.

Also -- not sure if this has been talked about on here before, but I would love for them to add in the party banter between Ascended Astarion and the other companions, where they talk about his relationship with the player. Someone found those dialogues in the official game files (I can look for them and share) and they're intriguing, it gives more insight into his feelings / the relationship dynamic and how others in the party view it. Not sure why these banter dialogues can't be triggered in the game right now (I think they've already recorded the voice-overs for them?), but it's such a shame that they're not in the game currently. I hope those will be added in the future because some of those were great.

Sorry for the wall of text <33 Thank you all again!!

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Originally Posted by Celesti4
Sorry for the wall of text <33 Thank you all again!!

Greetings, Celesti4. Thank you for taking the time to speak up. Join)
I also started my journey on the forum after patch 6 was released, and I found this platform to be the most comfortable for discussion. You might be interested in similar forum topics for discussion or reading:
The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side". - https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=943436&page=1 ;

Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion. -
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=943288&page=1

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Originally Posted by Celesti4
Thank you so much LiryFire, Sereda2, DarkAngelBeckons, and starryophonic for such a kind welcome! <3 I'm glad this forum exists so we can discuss this romance together in a non-judgmental way, rather than just sticking to one narrative like in some other places.

Thank you LiryFire for sharing those new lines that were found, I loved them, very interesting! I'm happy that
even if you decide to go to the Hells, A.Astarion doesn't break up with you and wants to continue your lives together when you see him again during the epilogue party! That is awesome.
I'm excited to see if more does get added to the romance with the next patch, too. Here's hoping our concerns will be addressed! I love Larian, I just feel strongly about certain things needing to be changed.

Sereda2, I completely agree about how heavy the narrative is on Reddit (and other places) about the whole cycle of abuse and why going down the AA route is awful etc. Aggressively so. I see people getting attacked just for having a different opinion on it than that. I never saw it as something so negative, and I do prefer his Ascended version very much. It's so much more nuanced than "Oh he becomes the next Cazador and is abusive." No. He's such a great character either way, but me personally I prefer the feel of the AA romance, and even the dark aspects of it.
I hope you will get to play to the end to watch that ending scene! It made me emotional in a good way that they added that in, especially since I wasn't expecting it at all. It felt like they were bringing things full circle for us. It does seem like that patch was inconsistent – it's almost like it was an incomplete idea that they were still workshopping, but the abusive kisses still got through.
I agree, I feel like those kisses and other things about the romance should be based on options we made during the game (as mentioned before, for example, when we tell him "Be gentle" or "Make it hurt"). And that's a great point you made about the fact that we can't respond to the mind reading part. That always bothered me too. We should be able to bring it up to him.

YT comments are like this too. If I hear one more person say, "cycle of abuse" I'm going to scream. That's not how the cycle of abuse works.


Originally Posted by Celesti4
Also -- not sure if this has been talked about on here before, but I would love for them to add in the party banter between Ascended Astarion and the other companions, where they talk about his relationship with the player. Someone found those dialogues in the official game files (I can look for them and share) and they're intriguing, it gives more insight into his feelings / the relationship dynamic and how others in the party view it. Not sure why these banter dialogues can't be triggered in the game right now (I think they've already recorded the voice-overs for them?), but it's such a shame that they're not in the game currently. I hope those will be added in the future because some of those were great.

Sorry for the wall of text <33 Thank you all again!!

Oh man, I would love to read those. Someone else posted the cut lines party members have with Astarion regarding Ascension/turning Tav and they are just incredible. Wyll's bit might be my favorite. https://shiakihades.tumblr.com/post/737825265777033216

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Originally Posted by starryophonic
Oh man, I would love to read those. Someone else posted the cut lines party members have with Astarion regarding Ascension/turning Tav and they are just incredible. Wyll's bit might be my favorite. https://shiakihades.tumblr.com/post/737825265777033216

Yes! Those are the ones I meant. smile They're fantastic. It's a damn shame that they're not able to be triggered in the game. I hope they get put in / restored at some point. I love the Wyll one too, also the one with Minthara as it shows he only wants to give the 'gift' of immortality to his darling (us!). The Halsin one was very interesting too. What he said to Lae'zel was eye-opening to me, and what Karlach said was really sweet.
That's so true about YouTube too, people just parroting the same narrative and I've gotten so sick of it.

Originally Posted by Mirmi
Greetings, Celesti4. Thank you for taking the time to speak up. Join)
I also started my journey on the forum after patch 6 was released, and I found this platform to be the most comfortable for discussion. You might be interested in similar forum topics for discussion or reading:
The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side". - https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=943436&page=1 ;

Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion. -
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=943288&page=1

Thank you Mirmi smile I love your avatar, it's too cute! That has to be canon what he looks like as a bat. laugh
I will take a look at the links you shared. <3

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They are not necessarily cut at this point....many have reported it as a bug. So hopefully Larian will also fix this since they did add the ability to check more party banter in the settings.

We shall see if it is in the bug fixes once more hot fixes and patches come out. <3 Technically, they are all there in the game files, but something is blocking them from happening in the game. So we shall see. So many awesome things to look forward to!!!


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