Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion

Yeah, I think it's good to point out that there are plenty of games that unintentionally or intentionally can make you feel bad, but if the execution is good, you'll still keep going back to them. Back in the days of Flash, I was really drawn to that "Pandemic" game. It always felt like I was one good strategy away from winning. But "winning" the game means wiping out the entire population of Earth. It was so addicting, and yet every time I got close to a victory (sometime before Madagascar would cut itself off), something would feel visceral and off. I wouldn't always keep the game open. But I still kept coming back to it. And there weren't even any "negative" consequences the game imposed for winning; it was just the mood it set with its subject matter.

Looking at so many other AA moments, I really, really don't think the intention was to just show a straight up domestic violence situation. I think the intention was to tell a Dracula-type dark romance. I think there were some points where they faltered, but overall I think it's executed well. I don't know who approved Tav's face in those kisses and why, but given that they kept all the other Dracula-type dialog, I'm willing to guess that they weren't intended to make the player uncomfortable, but at this point that almost doesn't matter. Real people have been harmed by this, and there's no justifiable point to it.

One of my favorite memes to lighten the mood:

and that is my point. I had played since release. Romanced Astarion before patch 6 very happily and was enjoying a repeat playthrough before patch 6 landed.

They changed an entire romance ending 6 months after game release for some completely unknown reason and made it into partner abuse, something I hadn't seen before patch 6 and was given no warning about.
Something I haven't seen in any other game either, at least not in the way this was implemented.


I don't play horror games and I haven't played Undertale. I know what I personally like and am fairly careful about what I choose to purchase but if I chose to play one of those games I would assume that what I got would be what I would still be getting 6 months later. Not suddenly told I was getting a Valentines day present that turns out to be poisonous.

Sigh. Never mind. I won't be playing again unless they change this somehow

Agreed.
This is not what players want.
It's bold of any writer to assume their audience needs to know what it feels like to be abused.

Wanting players to feel bad for ascending simply because the writer wants them to is not good writing.

There is no compelling, consistent reason to 'feel bad' in that moment within the written story if you're having fun being an evil character. Instead, players are suddenly aware of ONE writers morals and intentions. It breaks RP. It subverts the main authors work. It breaks the fourth wall, but not via any formalistic style choices produced through the character. But instead through the writer bursting in to share their personal values through forced expressions on the PC.

I can't express to Larian, to others enough. As someone who is classically trained in writing, whose field of study AND career is literature and fiction writing, THIS SORT OF MORAL LECTURING BREAKS THE GOLDEN RULE.

This. Is. Bad. Writing.

Writing 'don'ts' 101.

You can attent entire lectures, entire workshops on why writers should not do it.

For this very reason demonstrated in this thread. Audiences don't like it.

And you can't force an audience of thousands of players to suddenly share the same unified psyche. Nor to suddenly have a moral opinion that "x is wrong. You shouldn't like x." That's not how human audiences work. *Particularly in RP games. **Even more so, when it is not an integral, main part of the story. And instead a desire from the writer to show audiences what it feels like to be abused. It's shoehorned. For a grotesque and disrespectful reason.

I'm genuinely surprised to see this level of immaturity in a game with so much success. But, again, if it affected the largely straight male population, I'm sure we wouldn't even be having this issue. Men don't need lectures and lessons, right? Just women. Women need to be taught and saved from their sinful lusts.

This is so beyond not okay.

Who here said players don't want bad feelings? Obviously when you talk about it so generic someone wants it, and some stories does bad feelings really well. A new game I want to play is Hellblade 2 that is very bloody and dark with plenty of bad feelings.

This is completely different and the way they have done this is so bad it is unparalleled at the moment. You have yourself brought up some excellent points to why.

If that is not enough Natasy also says it very well.


@Bethra I will not touch the game either, if this is intentional I wont touch it ever again no matter how much I love Astarion as a character.

Curious that everyone who downloads the game these six months from February 17 to September 7 patch, will click on the kiss and see the character shake with fear and sadness.
Probably reload.
And no one will see these answers at all, for the consonant dynamic no one will see, it's forever a fear, a sadness for story.
Even DU
someone did a very good job to slaughter this romance

END GAME

One negative:
Player: I think we should break up.

Player: Let's see everything, now I'm free of my Father! I want to travel the world.
REALLY_DARK_URGE
Player: I want to see the world, with you at my side.
ORI_Astarion_State_GoingToTravel
Player: I want to live forever. Make me a vampire.
ORI_Astarion_Event_TurnIntoSpawn = False
Player: I want to sit on your lap, sipping blood from a chalice, ruling the Gate from our foul throne.
REALLY_DARK_URGE
Player: We'll start with Baldur's Gate - Let's make this city ours.
ORI_Astarion_State_TakeBaldursGateTogether
Player: Let's put our enemies to the sword!
ORI_Astarion_State_BloodyStruggle


EPILOGUE

Two neutral lines:
Player: Do you want to see the others? Say 'hello'?
Player: I'll get back to the party. Do you want anything?

Player: Is that what we're doing? 'Flourishing'?
Is more neutral, since it leads to two neutral.

Two negative lines:
Player: Freedom?
Player: Nothing. Forget I said anything.


Player: True. We are spectacular, after all.
Player: It is wonderful. I'm glad I get to share this with you.
Player: None would dare, my love.
Player: I'm sorry I kind of disappeared. I didn't mean to leave you like that.

6 patch, script, though

Feared character plot is applicable as a main plot, the game assumes that the player character understands nothing and is a victim.
I don't create victims who go for the kiss themselves.

It's been well told here from the outside here

Why is the reaction to the kiss not consistent with most of the lines?

3 negative responses for sad-Tav-victim.
10 positive responses for Tav\DU consonant dynamics. I prefer more content and creating the suitable character - ally and lover.

I can't speak for everyone, but it would personally put my mind at ease if someone from Larian would just tell us their official position on Ascended Astarion and the romance. I'm not stipulating that they have to agree with my perspective, but it would be useful to know where they stand and what they intended with the Patch 6 kisses with regard to Tav's/Durge's facial expressions. That way, instead of remaining in the dark and hoping this is something they intend to resolve in Patch 7 the mystery would be resolved. For me, the not knowing and the expectant waiting are the main issue.

As it stands, I feel like there is too much ambiguity around the game. I don't want to continue engaging with the product unless and until I have confidence that Larian is telling the kind of story I'm interested in. I've sunk quite a lot of time into this, and I don't want to be set up for another disappointment if Larian's design philosophy again turns out to be different from what I had believed it to be.

I feel the same way. I feel let down and hurt by 1. that they would do that in the first place and 2. that they have not changed/resolved anything yet. We've invested our time (and emotion) into the game, only to be hit in the face. At least that's how I felt. I'd love to know what their true intentions were with this as well, because it honestly goes against everything I thought I knew/saw before Patch 6. But they've been quiet and ignoring until now, so... great.

Edit: I wanted to add that I agree the final decision is theirs regardless, but I'd love to get clarity on what this was meant to add to the story/his character/the romance. And whether more choices for the player will be added.

Totally agree. Especially when they use my favorite character, who for me is the center of the game world, as a tool to show violence. And me directly as a tool to show the victim. I don't really like horror games for the reason that in them you mostly have to run and hide from “monsters” without being able to deal with them, it becomes very annoying, but, I wouldn't mind at all if my character in the game was taken prisoner, put in a dungeon, even interrogated and tortured, if there is a way out of this situation. Not breaking down during interrogation, setting off a prisoner riot and breaking free, getting revenge, etc. Cruelty in the game as a plot element - yes, I like it, but by no means NOT in a romantic relationship! It should have no place in a romantic relationship. It causes pain, it provokes triggers in people, it's impossible to play the game after that!

There was mention of a plot point with larvae that could make the player feel bad, maybe some people felt it, I personally didn't. It was oh-so-unusual to have a larvae inserted into my eye, it's impressive, a strong scene, but it's clearly not what I'd call “felt bad”. I've only felt really awful in this game one single time, during the hit the kissing patch 6 and the sleepless night afterward. Cruelty in the main story or side quests can be interesting and justified, especially since in the main story (I hope!) it wouldn't occur to anyone to show the player as a helpless, frightened, obeying out of fear victim in the form of a cut-scene, with no way to control the character's reactions. In the rest of the story, the player has the choice to be afraid of them or not. When inserting the larva into the eye, Tav is securely fixed, which also makes sense, and doesn't raise any questions as to why it is they aren't fighting back. Romance is completely different, it is in love that a person opens up and becomes vulnerable, and hitting a player in their only vulnerable spot when they have opened up to the game is no longer drive, no longer tension, no longer challenge, it's just mean-spirited. Tough scenes in response to the player's own bad behavior in a romantic relationship, that too I think is right and realistic, but when the player has spent the entire game caring for their beloved character, never hurting them, filling their playthrough with their own tenderness, expressing it in all the inconspicuous moments where possible (I even always added some fruit or cookies for Astarion to the “menu” of the camp), and then gets a sudden, unjustified, no logic, no merit violence, just because “that's the story”, in that case... This is really bad writing. So bad that it makes the player want to find out who wrote it so they never buy a game featuring that author again. It can't be done that way. A game should not have trigger scenes without warning, and if there is violence in a game, it should be plot and logically justified.


Thanks for the excellent proof of how plot and logically NOT justified it is.


Yes, that would be very interesting. At least it would put everything in its place, it would become clear whether it is worth writing reviews and how to treat the company as a whole. Of course, fortunately, we do not live in the XI century, when one single “holy scripture” was unchangeable, and there is already a great mod with which you can return to the game again. But I would really like to know Larian's official position, just to understand the situation. Attitude to the players, to the character, at the same time we can draw a conclusion about the quality of future games of the studio. If this is a mistake and the desire of only one author, then it's okay, people learn from mistakes, it's impossible to create something new and unusual without experimenting. Experiments can be unsuccessful, it is correctable, especially since Larian introduced other, wonderful and interesting innovations in their game, which can only be applauded. One mocap and great voice acting is worth it, this has never been seen before in any RPG! It's amazing!

And in a bad case - I won't quit the game either, because even so, the game is still a good base for modding, and everything can be fixed, which is already being done now. I just want to understand the situation and finally decide on my attitude to the company in general and to their possible future games in particular.

You expressed it much more succinctly than I can, but yes the AA romance feels too confused right now. Like different writers wanting to pull it in different directions at once.
Until they give an official stance on what those kisses are meant to symbolize or what we're meant to understand from it story-wise, I can't help but feel like they're just judging me negatively for wanting to have a romance with AA. Like it's some kind of punishment and my character deserves to be treated badly now, if that's what they mean.
It reminds me of the one writer (who, I believe, was not even Astarion's main writer) who said something along the lines of, "If you choose to be with him in his ascended form, then you don't see him as a person. You only see him as a sex object."
Way to make an enormously broad sweeping assumption about the whole freaking player base who may want to ascend him for all kinds of different reasons.
My Dark Urge was a supportive and loving partner to him and was ready to be all in with him forever, rain or shine - even after he ascended. Why is my character now being depicted as a meek, confused, scared, unhappy victim during those kisses? AA still loves his partner, even after the ritual, so to see this entire dynamic being put into the game is more than just shock value. It is wrong and nonsensical. On top of the fact that it's hurting players. And right now it feels to me like Larian is ignoring the damage that this has done.

Do we have a source for that? Because that's a pretty appalling thing to say and not at all in line with how the AA romance has been written.

Here: https://www.gamesradar.com/baldurs-...for-players-lusting-over-rpg-characters/

Romance feature lead: „(...) It’s ultimately reducing your relationship with him back to being a kink/form of gratification. Which is a fine thing to enjoy as a fantasy, but it’s very much admitting that you failed to think of him beyond a sex object, and care about more than that. You’re so attracted to him, you’d also turn yourself into one. I think it’s perfectly nice to fantasise about that, hell, I wrote the incubus scene where you can essentially make an irreversible sex-pact, and I think that’s sexy. But it isn’t something that I think is a lesson for real life. And I wanted the bad ending to really make you feel ‘I failed to see this video game character beyond my own fantasies. The game was more real than I ever expected it to be.”

And from the lecture of romance feature lead: «In this dialogue (act 2), I directly wanted to make the player feel bad for having learned the mentality of click-the-right-dialogue-options-to-get-sex-in-video-games, as that's kind of been baked into us as romance players of previous generations of RPGs (… )

The ("positiv" haha!) answer for Tav to choose in the romance scene in act 3 was : "I want your body." or "I want to become a Vampire like you". The (good/neutral) player has no choice, than to "click" this answer. Does something ring a bell? *facepalm*

Makes you wonder what the reason for Astarion original writer's departure from the company is.

I think that lecture explains exactly what the rationale was. According to Larian, apparently:

1. All players who ascend Astarion only care about pixel sex, they're sinners who need to be taught a lesson and made to feel bad.
2. Fanfic writers like to explore hurt so automatically everyone wants to experience pain on their own skin, even if they don't read these fanfics.
3. Depicting abuse, cheating, gaslighting and psychological damage is an innovative way to make romances better for the players.
4. Scenes where the player gets hurt is a good material for more fanfiction that will keep the game alive longer.
5. Wish-fullfilment is forgettable, so players getting their hearts ripped out by the game and not getting a happy ending will make them remember the game better.
6. People with special and unusual tastes deserve to feel seen so "degenerate" (author's own words) content is there so they can, for once, feel like a majority. It's very inclusive.

P.S. Number 1 is not from the lecture itself but from a different source. It supplements the message very well.

They're talking about a completely different scene, though. And I find it pretty reasonable that if you ignore Astarion telling you he's tired of being used for sex to pressure him into sex there'll be consequences that make you feel bad. A story being designed to make its audience feel things isn't out of the ordinary.

As a reminder before it delves into the usual topics, Welch is not Astarion's main writer, but they did at the very least write substantial chunks of AA's romance if not most of it, including some fan-favorites like "Aeterna amantes, lovers forever until the world falls down" and his interactions with Durge. That they did "a whole lot of work" (his words) on his romantic arc is confirmed by Rooney.
The Discord conversation was a leak and not meant for the public, and, from the casual context, I don't think it's exactly accounting for nuance.

7. Interactive romances "can shape a teenager's (the player's) entire perspective on how human relationships work and cause them to approach with the guiding principles of how we've designed these relationship systems their own lives. And it could shape the philosophy of desire in your brain for years to come».


Someone asked for a source, I showed the article on gamesradar, it's public. Nothing more I did. What are you trying to defend here? Everyone is free to watch the lecture or this article online.

Thank you!

I'm adding context, because it's not super fair to judge someone's quick discord messages that weren't meant for the public compared to someone's measured words. The screenshot is out there, sure, nothing one can do about that, but I think the context is important. The lecture is evidently also there and I said nothing about that, just that by the way you made your post, by the lack of context it looks like they're talking about the AA scene there when they're not.
I'm limiting myself to stating important context or facts on these threads, as I still feel it's important to do so.

How do you know they were just quick messages?

I'm glad that screenshot is out there because it explains why we got the shitty, railroaded dialogue options right after ascension and why the game assumes Tav doesn't care about Astarion.

I found it here: https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/16n1c1i/astarions_writer_on_his_endings/
It seems that it was said in a Discord. Astarion's main writer is Stephen Rooney, but the person who said that (about only wanting Astarion as a sex object) was a different writer. Stephen Rooney also wrote another awesome character (Fane) from their previous game. Sadly, he's now parted ways with Larian. I will continue keeping up with his new projects in the future because from what I've seen his work is awesome.


Wow. I haven't seen this lecture, but that sounds horrible and seems that they're just doubling down on the negative things. Yes, apparently game developers are specialists/experts that should be schooling adults now about relationships, telling us how we should feel and try to make us feel bad, even when they only gave us "negative" options in dialogue to choose from! And from what I'm hearing they're doing this for manipulative reasons. Why am I being treated like a child that needs to be taught these lessons when this is supposed to be escapist fantasy. This game is for mature audiences for a reason. It would be different if I was given dialogue options other than "I want your body" or "Make me a vampire." Excuse me because I'm struggling even being able to get my thoughts down coherently right now after finding out about this.

Because I'm part of a lot of servers, amongst them the one where the message happened, and saw that conversation happen live. The back-and-forth there was very much casual and laid-back.

I think one thing to keep in mind is that Welch specifically states that AA is fine to enjoy as a fantasy. Which to me suggests that his storyline is not supposed to be about abuse. It’s a guilty pleasure. I see a lot of people hyperfocus on the part about objectifying Astarion, who then miss the writer’s direct statement that they don’t judge anyone who enjoys him.