Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion

I just don't think you should try to force players to feel bad in an RPG. Every playthrough is unique because we all are unique. If I do not feel bad for ascending Astarion I don't, if I do feel bad I do. It all depends on me and by RP. While the story is there in the background it is for me and my Tav to go through and experience. And some players experience will most certainly differ from the author expectation if they expect to make every player feel one thing.


Yesss, a fellow Solas romancer.

Again, it all comes down to execution. Look at Dragon age 2 and Lilandra's death. That was made to make players feel bad and I'd say it generally succeeded. You can't force players to feel a specific thing, but it's not generally that hard, honestly. The urgency and dread of first getting the tadpole, the gloom of the shadow lands, etc.

I agree that there are scenes designed to show a lesson so that the player gets emotional. The scene in Act 2 where Astarion can be forced to sleep with you makes the players feel bad. And I agree that it should be there. As does the scene where he can be forced to bite Araj's merchant. And the players can feel bad again. Or the implantation of a parasite. You can be rude to an NPS and feel bad about it.

But those bad feelings are not the same thing people are feeling from patch 6.

And for the most part, the topic here isn't about the fact that the game in places makes you feel bad about your decisions and therefore the writers are bad, no, it's about the fact that the game's romance after patch 6 put a crimp on it and made many people put their game on hold. To the fact that people experienced negative emotions in real life and where they shouldn't have been.

I agree.


The gloom of the shadowlands is really beautiful. For me it's the best place in the game.

Edit: I just want to agree with Zayir about the feeling bad through compassion. I think that is the difference between bad feelings through a story and feeling unvalidated and trampled on through unwanted game changes; giving the player a reason to feel bad (take it or leave it) vs forcing emotional change on the player character. Like they did in Patch 6.
Also when roleplaying a evil character, I may feel compassion but I know my Tav wont so her reaction would be completely different from mine.

This. There's nothing wrong with sad elements in the story. What's wrong is screwing over players of one romance and cranking up artificial drama for the sake of making them feel bad for choosing a certain partner.

Bioware also made very messed up choices. Take Alistair for example - you need to ask him to sleep with the woman he hates the most so the both of you can survive and then have to watch a cutscene of them being naked and her getting on top of him. Also, stay as wardens together and be forced to choose between him and Hawke in DAI, be his concubine always in his shadow because you're not a human female or marry him as one and be described as his ball and chain in DA2. For women who care about having children it's also said in the epilogue that you have problems conceiving as his wife (since the tainted blood sterilises people). Not nice at all.

Meanwhile, other romances, especially female romances have nothing like that to deal with.

You described it so well. About feeling judged for wanting to have the AA romance, no matter our personal reasons for doing so. Not just within the game, but then also the victim shaming/blaming that comes as a result from others in the community, as Zayir mentioned. There shouldn't be any reason for us to feel guilty based on which romance we choose. You made a great point that the majority of players who want to romance him are not going to be cis hetero males. Many who felt drawn to this romance have already had to experience sexual or domestic abuse in their lives (sometimes at the hands of a romantic partner) and do not want to see that forced upon them in this game. They went too far with those facial expressions and reactions in the kisses. It's pretty astonishing to me that this happened at all, and very disappointing that they haven't changed anything yet since February.

I already didn't like having to consent to my character wanting to degrade herself to be with him. The only other option is to break up with him, then, which obviously most people do not want to choose to break up at that point.
This is why during the mind reading part, rather than having to hear that degrade line, I personally prefer

Still doesn't change what you would find out from the mind reading. I was also disappointed because I was hoping to find out a bit more about his actual feelings for my character... but no.

Edit: Wanted to add that the "degrading yourself" line can be seen in different ways. I've seen it said before that it has more to do with how Astarion still sees himself. That he feels paranoid that you may leave him and deep inside he still doesn't see himself as truly worthy of you or of your love. So he thinks you're lowering yourself somehow to be with him. On the one hand he's more arrogant but on the other hand he's still the same Astarion on the inside. That makes sense to me too.

Yes, you can interpret this that way. "He will always think that he is beneath you if you continue to stay with him." was Larian's translation in the language I played it (though I prefer the english version and another interpretation). And there is also the possibility, to just choose "kneel" and not to read his mind. It's optional for those, who don't like it.
I don't have a problem with it, on the contrary, I like the way Astarion looks at my Tav while the narrator says it. The whole scene is awesome the way it is, it's tense, excited, dangerous, predatory. Astarion's answers are made short to not let this tense moment go away. If you choose "no", he simply says "yes". He is dominant and not letting you (you = means your Tav) know his intention or feeling. You are going into the unknown. And he enjoys it to not let you know about it and have the control, and at the same time, to see, if you trust him. It's the best scene and moment in the entire game for me.
And by the way, if you choose "let it hurt", Astarion is enjoying it. The Dev notes here are: "Astarion clutches your neck in his hands and grins, squeezing before biting you". It's nothing new, because it's seen in the animation. Astarion is enjoying Tav's trust, their submission, and is grateful for letting him make Tav his spawn/bride. Just, because some people out there with no understanding are excessively (even youtube channels) trying to victimize and gaslight players who choose this route, inclusive a lot of kinkshaming (e.g. "look you are going on your knees, he sees you as a low piece of shit, trolololol"), I wouldn't let my fun and my perspective be taken away. This path is awesome and made to make people (or certain people) happy. "Try to wound me all you like"(Ascended Astarion). When people try to harm, gaslight, victimize other players, they only exposes themselves. If you don't like a path, don't harm people and don't make people feel bad, who like that path. As simple as that.



It's especially terrible that survivors of abuse and sexual assault not only had to relive their trauma, but when they're trying to share their experiences and worries on the internet, they are as many of AAromancers usually bullied and laughed at by other players ("You chose AA, it's your own fault! What else did you expect? He is an abuser! Your Tav needs to be scared and sad of him! You need to feel bad." etc.). That is Victim-blaming below the belt. And a form of gaslighting. And they don't get any help. I can only recommend that anyone who isn't an everyday sadist not take part in bullying and bashing and kink-shaming others - civil courage is something important for a better world.
For a lot of victims of abuse and sexual assault this patch is a double slap. There are even articles with titles like "Baldur's Gate 3's Astarion Gives Victims Of Sexual Abuse A Voice" and now these victims of abuse are victimized not only through their character in a valentine's kiss (forcing them to see / "roleplay" a non-consenting victim in a kiss), but also in real life through victim-blaming by other people and players.

I don't understand why Larian portrayed Tav as a non-consenting victim without a trigger warning and acted so carelessly to even drop this as a valentine's gift. And, as someone pointed out, where was the quality control. The first time I logged in after the patch and watched all three kisses ingame, my first comment on 16.02. 3:36 PM was, and I didn't even analyze it at that point: "Tav really looks pissed after two of the three kisses. And a bit like as if he would have been abused by a rapist - lol. I could imagine a lot of people will throw ascended Astarion away now"
I know, there are people out there, who cannot read facial expressions or understand other people's expressions of emotion, e.g. Asperger's syndrome, but it's hard to imagine, that noone of the team, who checked the kisses, were capable of reading expressions. (And where is the team, who worked on Tav in the romance scene, Tav's expressions were far better handled there, did they already leave the project?) But at the same time, if it was all intentional, not knowing, how much a non-consenting and non-consistent victim throwing in into a consensual interactive romance for women and gay men will affect most players in a negative way and cause harm, is a real mystery to me too. Do you really have to have studied psychology to estimate something like that? Well, to know what this process was like, would also certainly be very interesting and even if it's for study purposes.


Yep. I see it the same way. And I would prefer a "small" accident in the attempt for D/s kisses than the other direction. There are a lot of Animes, tagged with "BDSM", which but contains non-con, r*pe, hypnose, mainly consumed by men or let's say, the victims in those animes are mostly women or girls. It may be embarassing, if the attempt to show Tav as non-consenting was because of this (misunderstanding), but better this than the attempt to "shame" or "shape" players. And a lot of players commented positive on Astarion or the animation and only negative on Tav non-consenting, so would have liked these kisses entirely, if Tav would consent.

If you're curious to read more articles in which the authors talk about their vision of romance in the game, I have a collection of different articles on this topic in my signature (“My love is canceled”), not only this source, but other articles as well. At that time I collected what I could find after patch 6 was released, there doesn't seem to be anything afterwards except for the lecture, unless I missed something of course.


+1000

6 reasons for kissing from patch 6. And the answer to questions about other scenes of the Ascended Astarion romance. It remains to reveal 6 more points of anything regarding the Astarion romance, and we will know the “price of the deal with Mephistopheles”.


Great line. Could be one of the “red flags” for proponents of “free relationships” that has gone gold for me. As well as, “Yes, my treasure?”. Some people see “treasure” as a “marker of an unequal relationship”, like “woman as a thing” and stuff, I've seen opinions like that, and I love that line. This is just my personal opinion based on a little personal research on the topic of “abusive and unhealthy relationships” in western society, by no means an assertion. Eh, if all attempts to “show abusive relationships” were reduced to lines, I think all players would be happy. And those who want to condemn it would get some reasons to do so, and those who love Astarion could safely spit on it all from a high bell tower while enjoying the romance, and everyone would enjoy the writing, regardless of interpretation. But, it feels like the kissing was meant for those who enjoyed the romance because they felt “not the way it's supposed to be”.

The association with a beautiful house, where, however, you can enter only by crawling on your knees through the appropriate door. When you examine the building, the ceiling falls on you, and when you crawl out from under the debris, overcoming the contusion and wiping the blood running down your face, you begin to swear, you are told: “Well, come on, look how the living room is decorated! What a splendid picture hangs in the hall!" Well, yes, a fact is a fact, the collapse of the ceiling does not detract from the beauty of this painting, but still, would anyone want to buy such a house?


Authors should show it in such a way that the player feels it. Again, not everyone will feel it, they will feel it in different ways, but if the writing is decent, everyone will appreciate it anyway, depending on the spectrum of their own feelings. And the feelings should be realistic, they should be “inside” the game, with faith in what's happening. The feeling of breaking the fourth scene, for example, in the dialog scene after the Ascension, the feeling of indignation about how badly the lines are written - this is clearly not the feeling a player should feel in a good RPG. I'm not even talking about the fact that players should definitely NOT experience triggers by suddenly being exposed to traumatizing content. The player should feel like their Tav within the game world, not a critic and “investigator” trying to figure out why this game is doing such an ugly thing. It's definitely not the negative emotion that games are supposed to evoke. Yes, I didn't feel any fear or urgency over the tadpole because I understood that it was a tie-in to the main plot of the game, yes, metagame thinking, but you can't help it, too many games have been played by me in the past, but that didn't stop me from finding this tie-in interesting and the game gorgeous. But when I learned Astarion's story, I got a sense of dread for the proposed ways to get rid of the maggot, what if it works? Everyone gets rid of the tadpoles, and Astarion loses everything the tadpole gives him, and Cazador can control him again. I grudgingly allowed only Omeluum to watch the tadpole, and I was very interested in letting Volo dig into my eye (I thought I'd reset after he popped my eye out, I just wanted to see it, but the artificial eye in return was too cool). Now that's an unusual emotion, the reluctance to get rid of the problem, the writers clearly didn't plan to evoke that emotion, but the players take it as they do, and that's great. It's not sad with Karlach, it would be sad if she wasn't the “main mouthpiece” against Astarion's Ascension, and her lines in Act 3, including the offensive to me line, “I hope he'll treat you well...” (I'd kick her out of camp after that if I could, and if it weren't for her dependence on tadpoles) make me spit on her character and see her as a tool to solve the problem of who will become illithid. I genuinely cared for her in act 1 and 2, I previously really liked her, to me she is ruined by “morality” and another attempt to make me feel like I'm “doing it wrong”. Orin gets a bear shaped rattle and my thanks for getting rid of Halsin for the entire 3rd act. I wish this quest had made me feel anxious, but Halsin has been corrupted to please the “shitposters” and I don't like that kind of sex-crazed companion.

For the sake of comparison, I can mention the game Disco Elysium, which is impossible to get through without emotion, with the game author never forcing it, he just shows and writes it in a way that works. Another player advised me to see what would happen if I chose lines corresponding to a person of radical nationalist views, and... it was horrible. Unreal to go through. The writing is great, horrible in just another sense, in terms of “feel”. The person who recommended it to me cried during that playthrough himself, even though he was a man not prone to crying over everything. That's how it's written. I don't know if it can teach anything, it would have to be tested on someone who could pick such lines “from themselves”, but the average player is made to feel in a real, artistic sense. Of course, if an author of such a level as the author of Disco Elysium were writing a romance for BG3, we'd probably feel something strong, and it wouldn't be triggers because of traumatizing content (Disco Elysium has a double warning to the player before a violent text description of a scene about mercenary atrocities, even though the scene has nothing to do with the player personally, and it's text, not video).


Yes, I agree... Atmospheric and very beautiful. And Astarion in the moon lantern light ahead... <3


And that's unfair and unjust to say the least. I myself went through DAO with Zevran and for me the game was the best game at the time, I loved it. Much like BG3 for those who don't romance or ascend Astarion (well, with Shadowheart/Halsin still frustrating, but otherwise it's ok). Even the healing mod, through which one can enjoy Astarion's wonderful kisses, was made based on other companions' kisses. So for other players can do well? Why the hell did the game cost the same for everyone then? Then at least add some kind of cruelty to everyone, to each companion, warn that the game is cruel, the world is cruel, it will be honest, and will surely find connoisseurs and willing to go through various cruel stories. No, in every announcement for every patch (and patch 6 was also mockingly presented as a “romantic gift”) the developers address the public in such a cheerful tone, as if they have a fun fair here, pink elephants running around, everything is good and fine. Well then, make it normal for everyone, make it good and fine, if that's how you position yourself.


Yes, I too was a bit surprised at such insolence on the part of some people, which is a clear illustration of Astarion's line: “Most people are <...>”. I'm not quoting it in full, so as not to hurt their feelings (a line in Wyrm's Rock Fortress). Of course it's not a majority, most players don't care about that, there are plenty of romances in the game. What's really striking is that the script itself does this. No choice, ultimates. Stupid line - “I like to degrade myself” - victim facial expressions painted on my face! Hello, I'm your victim! No, dear “narrative”, goodbye!


The game should not cause the player to feel contempt and judgment for what is written. Those are clearly not feelings that should be FORCED to be felt. Modders should be artists decorating the game for those who enjoy such decorations, not surgeons saving a dying patient.


Yeah, it was a very hard check for me too. The first explosion of emotion in this game was because of the inability to respond to it - the only check that gives no retorts or reactions. Really, the only thing left to do is to skip it. I think the message of this check is that a player who doesn't want to degrade themselves should want to part ways with Astarion. Or load up and suppress him so that he “behaves as he is supposed to”. Scenarios should be written “as supposedly”, following the laws of the RPG genre and allowing for roleplaying.

So we're in agreement that it's about execution, grand. Like I said, I was only speaking out against the idea that's cropped up that games trying to make players feel bad at all is blanket bad. I wanted to be a voice against that specific argument that's been made. I think the execution with Astarion's story with the new kiss was an absolute failure and frankly it seems that Larian has just failed with Astarion however you slice it. Either they didn't want him to be automatically abusive in which case the additions now have failed to do what they wanted, or they did want him to be abusive and they completely failed to showcase it before patch 6, and then patch 6 failed even moreso because nothing else changed so it's just bizarrely out of character. Larian's creative process just seems to overall be a chaotic mess that produced all the good stuff they have by accident, almost.

I do want to bring up something that's come up a while back though. I wanted to just let it pass but it's been bothering me and I don't expect that anyone else will speak up about it. A little while back in either this thread or the other Astarion thread you pretty much said that anyone who loves Astarion would always choose to Ascend him if they want the best for him, and I think that that's wrong. Like, that opinion is inherently wrong. It would be like me saying that someone doesn't love Karlach if they don't force her to go back to the Hells with them to fix her engine. Or saying you don't love Shadowheart if you don't turn her away from being a dark Justiciar. I may think that that's her best ending, but it would be wrong of me to tell someone else that the way they play indicates they don't love a character enough. That stance fundamentally bothers me. When spawn fans gang up on ascencion fans, they're being toxic, they're wrong, they're engaging in shameful behaviour that should have no place in fandom. But up until that point their love for the character and their interpretation of the events of the game are every bit as valid and deep as yours. I am not saying you're as bad as those Spawn fans who constantly have mobbed and belittled ascencion fans. You objectively are not, not even close. But I also think you are wrong in this specific opinion you've espoused.

I think everyone here is in agreement that there's a vast difference between, "I want my story to elicit these emotions, which could be negative" and, "I want my story to make people feel bad in a needless way." For me, the reason I got upset at the writers' comments were that it almost came across (again, to me, subjectively) that the intention was to make players feel bad for picking the wrong options, in a way that goes beyond "aw that sucks." I'm very open to the idea now that they meant something different and more nuanced, though I still don't agree with every idea in that lecture being a good one.

@ Gray Ghost: It doesn't help us in this thread to talk about what someone have or might have said about the ascension in an earlier comment in one of the threads. I suggest to discuss such a topic in the discussion thread, because mainly, we'd like to give Feedback to Larian here and speak out, why patch 6 destroyed Player Agency in our romance and why it affected the player in a negative way. You are surely welcome to discuss this in the discussion thread though. Thank you for your support!

I don’t think they’re arguing for the correct ending, simply addressing an earlier comment in this thread saying that ascension is the only ending if you love Astarion. But I agree that debates about the endings belong in the discussion thread.

Beautiful way of putting this. YES. The new kisses to me felt so out of place that they could've been made by a modder who is into that, or catering to those who are into that -- not something that is officially put in the game for everyone. The feeling of the romance before the addition of those kisses in Patch 6 was ambiguous enough that most players could still see what they wanted to see; as it should be. It was interesting and exciting that way. You could still see him as a protective partner who spoils his beloved, if you wanted to. He expected obedience yes but he was gentle with you still. Not physically violent. Hells, even if you kick him in the *** he doesn't retaliate physically. There was always an undertone of something darker and sinister being there, sure. But never such a painful representation of our character being unhappy and mistreated. As it is right now, it's so jarring and just came out of nowhere, like a sucker punch to the gut (to the player) for no reason. It doesn't fit into the other lines he says, either. If they wanted to change him to be more abusive, and so different than before, then they should have also changed the lines afterwards (not letting him continue to shyly laugh and say, "I do really like that, you know?"). Lots of other changes would need to made then, too. It's just so so sloppy and choppy the way it is right now!


Thank you for sharing that! That's very interesting and valuable to me, to know that in other languages it clarifies a bit more what they actually may have meant with that specific line. But I do like that the English version could be seen in either way, for people who may enjoy it, too.
And I love your description of the Turning scene. Yes. The tension and the excitement of that moment was like nothing else in the game for me. And then the next morning for him to say, "Thank you for trusting me." Was great.

I will never understand those who are relishing in the negative impact of these kisses -- those who are happy to see other players hurt. Those who are not even interested in playing this romance and never have. They're not emotionally invested like those who are directly affected playing it. Even the argument about 'cycle of abuse' is nonsensical here because AA's method is about finesse, smooth-talking manipulation, not violence towards the player. Even if he's angry he lashes out verbally, not physically. Our Tav/Durge at the Epilogue party is filled-out and healthy, and there's no sign of physical abuse going on. You can talk to AA there as you like. I personally even enjoyed the dialogue with "Freedom?"/"Not this again!" There's still something playful and fun here, if you want to see it. There's nothing here that has the same energy as those kisses. Others on this thread mentioned this before, but if Larian wanted to suddenly introduce this sort of negative change in our character like in the kisses, then the epilogue is when they should have done it. But they didn't. AA wants others to see him with his love side-by-side and flourishing. He wants his love to live the very best life! He doesn't want to humiliate or torture them. It's never been that way.

+1

It feels disingenuous to take "we don't want to feel abuse in games just to make it more realistic" as "we can't handle any bad feeling. Never makes stories with negative emotions anywhere ever, we will never tolerate that."

The latter is NOT the point. Feels a little inflammatory to try and take it that way.

Also to second @zayir I was so surprised to see the debate around the "you're degrading yourself to be with him" line. If you're degrading yourself...it means he feels below you.

In German the line is: "He will always think that he is beneath you if you continue to be with him. but maybe you want to humble yourself, And he knows it."

Which is much more succinct. I'm not really sure how to take that, except as it says? Why would the English version have a different meaning? Does the American audience need to learn a different lesson or play a different game? That'd be silly.

The degradation line seems fairly cut and dry that he feels like you could do better than him. Which would explain his bravado post ascension.

Tldr; no, Larian, we do not want to "feel abuse" to make relationships more realistic. If I wanted realism I wouldn't be playing fantasy RPGs.

Please fix the faces. They're illogical for evil plays and gross for irl abuse victims. Stop preaching. Let us have fun.

That's interesting. I just saw a video including the face he actually makes because I've never passed the insight check myself, and he's smiling. Can anyone remind me, when you pass insight checks at other points in the game, does the NPC's face usually betray their true feelings? I want to say yes, but I could be wrong. I still find the check narration in general an odd choice, but your info about the German version makes it a little less opaque to me. Because to me, the English line, "He will always think you are degrading yourself by being with him," does NOT necessarily mean he thinks he is below you. It can mean that, but it can also mean that he feels so dominant that to be with him would be to necessarily degrade yourself.

Agree. In English it's very easy to misunderstand the line or see it differently. I had to mull over it for a while, and it's often used by people who want to shame AA romance. That's why it's so interesting to me to see the way they've officially translated it in other languages!


The fact that it came out as a Valentine's gift...! Was it supposed to be a joke. It was thoughtless and sloppy (though perhaps well-meaning) at best, and malicious at worst. I was really excited to get new kisses and couldn't wait to see them. They were supposed to be varied and enjoyable to see again and again. I feel we got the opposite. Larian, pls. This would be such a simple fix. All we want is to not be triggered, we want to be able to enjoy this romance again like before.

I have never wanted to be inflamatory and I've long agreed that the kisses were a mistake. I interpreted what the lecturer in that video said as being "feel bad" in the standard sense of negative emotions, so when people in this thread went from talking about the triggering experience they had with the game to responding to that statement and broadly saying that games shouldn't make players feel bad, I took that as them saying they did not wany any sort of bad feeling, because in focsing on that specific talking point I saw it as making a point about something broader than perhaps they meant it. There is a difference between those two things you listed, but when someone is just talking about "feeling bad" with those exact words, that suggests an interperation closer to the latter than the former. I've been on board with the former for a long while, and felt the need to speak up when I thought the argument was transitioning towards the latter.

Raphael Fandom:
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=943715#Post943715

Tav to Raphael: "They will kneel before you, Master. Everyone of them."
Raphael: "Before us, mouse."

He’s wretched. Vile. Despicable. Tav is so attracted to him it’s ludicrous.

Tav: "Fine, then. In for a penny and all that. “If I win, I want a kiss.”

"Tav expects a massacre. Tries to mentally prepare for him to pull the rug from beneath her feet, decimate her pathetic attempts, and then string her up by her metaphorical toes and bleed her for every embarassing confession and admission she can give while he gorges on her emotional turmoil (and masochistic delight). That isn’t what happens. Instead, she wins – in about as loose as the term can be used, but still."

Thank you very much, little mouses, Raphael Fandom, for all your fantastic fanfictions. It shows, what a lot of women are looking for in a fictional story: A romance or a little fun with a villain.

Not "relationships going wrong", beeing "gaslit", being "cheated on", "abused" or told the "spark has gone", which should lead to wanting to "break up" (Quotes from Welch, lecture). Many women like Enemies to lovers, not vice versa! Sure, there might be also people who like to see "lovers to enemies/breakups", but if Mx Welch believes the majority of women are seeking this and like to roleplay breakup scenes, I think Mx Welch is wrong. And as mentioned before, it can be a very hurtful feeling in real life. If the Raphael Fanfictions are not enough, then we can list countless more Enemies to lovers alike stories: Hannibal&Will, Davinci&Girolamo, Jamie&Jonathan, Sephiroth&Cloud, Sherlock&Moriarty - was even funnily mentioned in the serie with an almost kiss - Jason Isaacs's villains (a great actor!): Col. William Tavington&Benjamin Martin (Mel Gibson), Lucius Malfoy, Gortash - yes even if Gortash is not so handsome, I guess, it's because of.. well, Jason Isaacs? Etc, etc. - - That was just a side note and Feedback, because we cannot know, if it is related to the Patch 6 suddenly non-consenting victim or not. If you want to have a romance, loved by women, in your future games, make an "enemies to lovers" one, but the (complex) villain not too tame, it must be excited, passionate. Playersexual. There is a reason, why so many love Raphael and wish to have a romance with him. And a reason why Astarion is liked by a lot of women: He is villain-alike.

Raphael Fandom: Tav IS consenting to Raphael and likes him, I assume in most of the fanfictions, pictures, videos

BG3: Tav is also consenting to (Ascended) Astarion in all the scenes in BG3 while partnered. Tav is in love with the villain. The story, you created, allows and confirms this. And that's what the majority of AAromancers are playing, they do not wish to break up.

Epilogue:



Thank you, ArneBab, I quoted you here, because this is the suggestion and Feedback Thread and I think, you said it very well


Forcing sad, contempt and hateful faces on the player's character in a kiss of a consensual romance is inconsistent and inappropriate.

+1
And if the faces are separated from the motion capture, as ArneBab (/The GDC talk on animation) said, I hope, they can and will rework the facials expressions of Tav for the next patch.

The topic of “love” is interesting from a discussion point of view, but of course it's a topic for a discussion thread, so as not to deviate from our topic, I'll just clarify that I didn't say “anyone”, much less “always” (there are so many players who love Astarion, who go all the ways, want to see all the variations, different reactions to different events, to understand him better, and to suggest that someone should deprive themselves of content, story and roleplay would be very strange and stupid) and used the word “love” in the sense of feeling, separate from morals, good/bad endings, roleplay opportunities, perception of their Tav and Astarion's character, reading the context of the story etc. And regarding our topic - I meant that the game (especially in patch 6) either intentionally penalizes, or does not take into account as existing, those players who strongly love Astarion's character and emotionally experience the events that happen to him.If a person can't let Astarion be a spawn forever, if Astarion's fate is more important than “goodness”, “morality” and “7000”, if they can't accept a “burning ending” for themselves in their world, if they can't look at his tears and his depressed state devoid of former playfulness, what can be said about such a player? They love Astarion, they can only go through the Ascension variant because they are so emotionally sensitive and empathic to the game character. Those who have a different understanding of “love” and perception of this story, they are fine, the authors are on their side, they are not affected or bothered by this topic and this problem of patch 6 at all, they got a couple of new kisses and can play in peace and enjoyment.

Roleplay for such an Astarion-loving player in Act 3 has always been absent, which is odd and really is a “new word” in romance. All other RPG games give this option and appropriate lines for both good and evil companions in a romance. And in BG3 (a mocap game where it is much easier to get attached and feel the emotions of a companion who has the facial expressions, looks, voice and intonations of a living person than in the case of 3 pixels) for some reason we can treat Astarion only as a sexual object (is this also a hello from “shitposters”?) or play “evil”, doing everything for the sake of “power”. With evil and power is also a mess - firstly, the game “for evil” should not give out traumatizing content (by the way, all players who want to explore the game to the maximum, with different variants of passages, also fall there - they too can experience the impact of triggers, regardless of their attitude to the “game morality” and to a particular character). Second, how does an evil DU become a victim and shake like a chicken on their knees in fear, unable to do anything about it? That breaks the whole story.

The romance author doesn't know about the fact that a player can fall in love with a game character? Quote from the lecture: «So no video game character will ever matter quite as much to me as Gareth Vicarion, for example. But if you in your games present a character with a good enough romance arc, perhaps it will impact someone's most personal heart».


By the way, a modder who is into D/s would have made those kisses much better. There would be no victim facial expressions, there would be no sadism, and the kisses would probably be very much liked by many people. Basically, the company was only missing two people - an author who takes players into account and wants to make a good romance story + an outsourced modder who understands D/s, and with that budget, great acting and voice acting, this would have probably been the most memorable, best and truly groundbreaking “dark romance”. About Astarion's line: “I do really like that, you know?” - you hit me right in the heart, my favorite line, when I first heard it, it just touched me through and through, I almost cried from it (in a good way). And in those kisses in patch 6, especially when I was in them for the first time, and through tears looked into Astarion's eyes, this line is perceived as some particularly exquisite emotional sadism.


In my language it's quite painful, if you translate it back into English, it would be: “He thinks you are humiliating yourself by staying with him. But perhaps you enjoy humiliating yourself.” The word “degrade” is also used in my language, sounds the same (it's an Anglicism), but has nothing to do with dominance/ submission, but has a meaning opposite to the word “development”. Decay, destruction of intelligence, personality traits. “They like to degrade” - this is what one would say about a person who, for example, has become an alcoholic or drug addict, and is gradually destroying their life and personality. I took this line to mean that Astarion despises himself, perhaps because of his past traumas and humiliations, and doesn't believe that anyone worthy would love him, unless that person enjoys humiliation, in which case they can be dominated. So not being able to react to that, and having to sort of validate that opinion of his, agree that I just enjoy humiliating myself, caused a wave of hurt and anger at the game's script on the first playthrough. It seems to me that they counted on an English-speaking audience when writing it, without considering localization options, so the correct interpretation would be to interpret the lines in English specifically.

Yes, Zayir described the scene well, this description makes it that much better! Why did they even need all these “degradations” that are hard for the players to understand and interpret? I think something along the lines of “Astarion has always desired power, but more than anything else in this world, he craves power over you” would have been much better. And dominance could be conveyed that way, and it could be confirmed without heartache, and no ambiguity.

The next morning is beautiful. And before that, everything from that beautiful angle of him sitting down to Tav and, “You gave me everything. Thank you” are also stunning moments unlike anything else in the game.

In any case, no matter how one interprets this scene, there was nothing humiliating after it in the romance itself. And the scene can be passed unchecked, simply by wanting to elevate Astarion, to give him control and dominance, because it is a kind of therapy for him. He feels better that way, and I feel better too, admiring such a proud and contented Astarion. Those kisses are a fake sadistic sticker that doesn't fit with the story of the game, or the player's perception of that story. Astarion will never torture Tav, and Tav will never be afraid of him. What's really demeaning to me is being forcibly labeled a “stupid victim” that I never roleplayed and had no intention of doing so. For fanfic fans who like to “beg for freedom” and call Astarion names, that he's like Cazador and stuff, you can leave something like that tied to their roleplay and their lines, for fanfics that's enough. But in a way that doesn't bother or traumatize other players who love the character and want a real, realistic, normal romance with him, without traumatizing content, and who are the vast majority of people who choose that path.

I don't want to derail this thread further so I'll be brief and say that this is exactly what I was talking about. You assume here that a player who leaves Astarion as a spawn is doing so because of morality, etc, and that they don't love him enough to ignore that stuff while I maintain that plenty of characters that don't ascend him view that as the better ending and don't view him as having lost playfulness, etc. You are implicitly saying that anyone who prefers the spawn ending for him isn't being emotionally touched and are doing so because they're choosing their morals over him. And that smacks of an arrogance that really bothers me.