They picked Dame Aylin? OK, she did have a cool cutscene. I would have taken a closer look at Lakrissa, who was a much warmer and more fun character. I liked Lakrissa from the first dialog where we made a bet. Aylin does have an important thematic component, but I think it derives more from her hundred years of imprisonment and repeated ... uh, what's a good word here ... "violation" by her captors, rather than from her relations with anyone else. I kind of felt like Larian backed off a bit on Aylin's recovery story. It would have been interesting to see her work through the Stockholm Syndrome effect, for example. So anyway, yes Larian deserves accolades, but my choice in this category goes to Lakrissa.
They have all my support (and I'm very sad to see the amount of negative comments they've gotten) but I have to say I do find Shadowheart as a pick to be strange. Her story doesn't highlight any sort of LGBT narrative or identity at all. She just has one vaguely flirtatious line about Karlach. Almost reminds me of when Viconia flirted with Hexxat, but she's straight. I think SH's very easily considered playersexual. At best you could read certain lines her dad has as a metaphor for deadnames and parents disowning children over their transness, I suppose.
Dame Aylin is a better more coherent nomination for sure since her romance with Isobel is important to her narrative. I guess they could've included Nocturne but she's a very minor character and in my opinion, when it comes to her trans identity, super clunkily written. Two of Astarion's most touching scenes acknowledge that he's been with men in a way you can't ignore (When he was in the tomb for a year because of letting a guy escape and the Sebastian scene), too, so I'm surprised not to see him there. I think maybe Karlach could be a candidate as well, Samantha Beart mentions how she played all the romance scenes with a female Tav in mind, and Karlach's act 3 romance scene seems to be a
pegging
scene if I recall correctly? But honestly I think her character also falls into a lot of traps playersexual characters do. Halsin is undoubtedly into everyone, as he specifies as much, so not playersexual. But I also wouldn't say he's exactly noteworthy for that or anything so I don't think he'd be a good nomination.
Not that I care about these awards, but Shadowheart of all characters winning an award for LGBTQ+ representation when there are much more wholesome and heartwarming couples in BG3 clearly shows a severe lack of objective integrity in order to politically ride the popularity of her actress, rather than truly picking a representative character.
Lakrissa and Alfira, Dame Aylin and Isobel, even Beldron and Lunkbug are much more captivating couples written with class.
Shadowheart who is a player-sexual kink-machine at best that doesn't have any relationships and merely hints about getting it on with Karlach and "howling under the moonlight" with Halsin; manages to win the award over Dame Aylin, Selune's own celestial daughter sent as an emissary that fell in love with a mortal woman worshipping the celestial mother and then imprisoned by her very lover's father for a hundred years to be used as a life-battery for him and his armies as they kept ritually killing her over a century as part of their initiation. Yet despite the sickening cruelty inflicted upon her that had mentally and physically scarred her, her tremendous love and devotion towards Isobel never waivered as both outcomes regarding Isobel's fate bring out an amazing performance by Hellen Keeley.
Aylin 100% should have gotten the award here, especially since it's an award for the character and the core of Aylin's character is literally her love for Isobel.
They were missing Isobel who chose a goddesses daughter. Yes she was shown in the cut-scene, but you don’t see her devotion to Dame Aylin.
In my second playthrough I killed her on command of the god of murder. In contrast with the first playthrough where she’s alive, it’s gut-wrenching how much light and joy is wiped out by that murder.
But Shadowheart is the more openly sex-positive one, and the scenes *they show* are more intense, so I understand the decision.
And in most third-party "best of BG3" videos, Shadowheart is with a female Tav.
Shadowheart who only has fantasies about having sex with Halsin Who identifies as a Man and is a man won the gayest Character award yet dan Alyn who tells us to leave so she can make love to her girlfriend didn’t ?
Karlach who VA said she tried to make Karlach as gay as she could didn’t win ?
I think they just gave Shadowheart the award because her VA is gay.
This is type of bs is why I don’t take award seriously
There is a B in LGBTQ, so a character doesn't have to be a goldstar lesbian to qualify for the award.
Not that LGBTQ "as a group" actually means a thing, given that in reality (as "outside of the fabled world predicated on the internet") almost each letter of the acronym summarizes a sub-group that barely wants to have anything to do with the other ones.
Last edited by Tuco; 04/07/2404:13 PM.
Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
MAybe this will make it clear to some western gaming companies that you don't have to uglify female characters or turn them into half-men to make players of all walks in life like them and feel "inclusive".
There is a B in LGBTQ, so a character doesn't have to be a goldstar lesbian to qualify for the award.
For sure, but I don't think that's what people are necessarily discussing here, or at least I know I wasn't. I know the discussion around BG3's playersexuality (vs. bi/pansexuality) is its own can of worms, but even ignoring that I think Shadowheart isn't exactly showcasing any sort of representation, past the playersexual mechanic. There is no discussion or insight or mention of her bisexuality. I do see how her identity (and having to deal with repressing it) is a vital part of her storyline, but I don't see much of a metaphor for anything there besides mayyyyybe a trans narrative if I'm real charitable.
I think this video by verilybitchie sums up my thoughts on the entire pansexual vs playersexual debacle quite well, and I do wonder how she'd discuss BG3's romance system.
IMO, Halsin is the only one (of the companions) who is without a shadow of a doubt pansexual and not mechanically pansexual and states as much. I'd say Astarion as well but there's already enough discourse about how his (unavoidable) banter flirting with both sexes "doesn't count because he was still acting as if he was under Cazador's influence" (which I think is a bit silly, but eh, okay, let's say you can't say that he's pansexual without a shadow of a doubt). What I will say is that in Astarion's case there is a same-sex relationship that's unavoidably discussed if you do his quest, so there's that.
I watched the awards now. Theoretically, they could have nominated all companions, if they go for the bi route. Astarion would have the demi sexuality on top (I don't count his canonical samesex relationships, since he didn't had agenda over his own body in that time) and Halsin the poly stuff (though I don't see him as a well done representation of that). I don't really have a problem with Shadowheart, though I would have prefered Dame Aylin in this case. The game is generally very queer friendly (my view as a lesbian) and deserves an award. Shadowheart might have been picked, because she is the most romanced character according to Larians numbers.
"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
As our updated code of conduct, which everyone should have just signed up to, says: “It's everyone's responsibility to keep this a safe and positive community. This space is for everyone regardless of gender, gender identity/expression, sexuality, religion, race, ethnicity, or nationality.”
Unnecessarily pronouncing on LGBTQ+ issues outside the context of discussing the game or opining on the lack of femininity of women who don’t meet your criteria of attractiveness or appropriate female behaviour don’t align with that code, but I’ve seen both earlier in this thread. No more please!
Let’s all be respectful, constructive and considerate of the fact these are open, public forums with a diverse membership.
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
For sure, but I don't think that's what people are necessarily discussing here, or at least I know I wasn't. I know the discussion around BG3's playersexuality (vs. bi/pansexuality) is its own can of worms, but even ignoring that I think Shadowheart isn't exactly showcasing any sort of representation, past the playersexual mechanic. There is no discussion or insight or mention of her bisexuality. I do see how her identity (and having to deal with repressing it) is a vital part of her storyline, but I don't see much of a metaphor for anything there besides mayyyyybe a trans narrative if I'm real charitable.
Yeah, her sexuality is not that deep or developed outside of the playersexuality. But she mentions Halsin being nice to look at, has a liking for Karlach and a romantic past with Nocturne, so the entire spectrum of genders are canonically represented, though very briefly. But like you say, her sexuality is not front and center, but I think that can also be part of a good character. One that has a lot else to bring to the table and is not defined solely by the romantic and sexual aspects. In a way I like that better as representation, Shadowheart is just casually pan and open minded, she doesn't shout it out like some of the other more sexualized characters.
@papercut_ninja For me, I honestly think it's just not very developed at all. I think it's cool if characters don't have their sexuality or identity be front and center, and don't think it's needed for it to be constantly remarked, but it does frustrate me a bit that a "lazier" playersexual mechanic is rewarded by awards when it could've been more meaningful and easily included to make her canonically pan. Like they did with Astarion except for all the online discourse about whether it "counts" because of his circumstances. I think her being in a romantic relationship with Nocturne is partly HC territory (people have theorised pre-transition Nocturne was her Dream Visitor in EA, though, but it's just a theory... a game theory) and I also don't think that line about Karlach is enough to confirm she's bisexual, unfortunately. Would've been nice if they've pushed the tension with Shadowheart and Lae'zel a bit more, I suppose, since the devs joke about it a lot now.
I don't say this with ill intent and I hope that's clear, I'm bisexual myself and I like seeing bisexual characters on screen. Unfortunately I don't know if that's what I'd consider Shadowheart, although it's easy for me to HC her as such.
I don't say this with ill intent and I hope that's clear, I'm bisexual myself and I like seeing bisexual characters on screen. Unfortunately I don't know if that's what I'd consider Shadowheart, although it's easy for me to HC her as such.
I don't sense any ill intent at all, and I see the point and agree that bisexuality can get lost in the mix when you have playersexual mechanics.
It's a matter where interpretations of the character can differ greatly. Her interest in Karlach and past relationship with Nocturne is solidified through twittercanon more than in-game canon, so it depends on what emphasis you put on that.
But as Larian's developers also have said so eloquently "The characters in Baldur's Gate belong to everyone now." And that means that headcanons and fancanons are valid as well, if the lesbian and bisexual players have taken Shadowheart to their heart, then she belongs to them just as much. And Larian's writers, her VA and the entire team around developing her as a character made her believable and enjoyable to those players.
Of course they give the gay award to a character who spent the entire game fantasizing about having sex with a muscular man LOL I think the same as most of the people who comment, Isabel and Lady Aylin deserved to win.
Like most awards involving BG3 this is a joke. Here because lazy playersexuality to save money on dialogue and companions is confused for actual lgbtq representation, especially when the confirmed lgbtq characters get ignored (who are also in my opinion not handled very well and imo their dialogue is much too cringe but I can't think of a better representation from the last year. Does RT have a good lgbtq character?).
Originally Posted by papercut_ninja
But as Larian's developers also have said so eloquently "The characters in Baldur's Gate belong to everyone now." And that means that headcanons and fancanons are valid as well, if the lesbian and bisexual players have taken Shadowheart to their heart, then she belongs to them just as much. And Larian's writers, her VA and the entire team around developing her as a character made her believable and enjoyable to those players.
That a lazy cop-out and the equivalent of Larian throwing up the hands in the air and saying "Yes, fine, whatever you want, I don't care". Its understandable why Larian is doing it, thirst is the thing that made BG3 a success, so they want to keep it going, but its not something that should be honored with an award.
I'm in more of a middle ground. I don't think playersexuality is inherently a bad thing and think it's a better system for these games than set sexuality romances unless that sexuality is important to their story (Think Dorian Pavus), but I also don't think playersexuality counts as representation, although I'm sure for a lot of LGBT people it's nice to be able to romance the companion they like when playing as the same sex. I think I've gotten used to it so I'm neutral about it.
I will also say I disagree for the most part about the LGBT characters in BG3 being cringe. I thought Aylin and Isobel were adorable. Lakrissa and Alfira have some sort of thing implied and I also think it's handled well even though I quite dislike Alfira. Those gnomes in Grymforge are there and can't really care either way. The exception is Nocturne, I do think she's written with the subtlety of an elephant in a tea shop. Here's where I think her identity shouldn't be the sole feature of her character. She's The Trans Character Who Is Trans and Transitioned Because She Is Trans, and I find that really clunky. I suppose respectful trans characters aren't common in videogames so you've gotta start somewhere real basic, but damn, is it just the stereotypical stuff all concentrated into a single character. I actually think whatever metaphor you can read into Shadowheart's "deadname" is miles ahead of Nocturne's representation.
![[Linked Image from bg3.wiki]](https://bg3.wiki/w/images/thumb/d/d4/Minthara_Approval.png/26px-Minthara_Approval.png)
