Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion game gaslight on Astarion awful behavior

edited for grammer:
Doesn't matter, my point is that the game doesn't let you question his behavior.
Also their is a difference between having a discussion about a topic and changing someone else opinion.
Lae' zel is a much softer towards the end of the game but her feelings towards Mind Flayers and her desire for violence when people stand in her way. She just has no issue talking...sometimes. You can talk to Minthara about how she supports slavery...it doesn't matter if she doesn't change you can talk about. You probably cant comprehend this because you ~never done it ~ but the point of discussing a topic is to learn someone else point of view. That becomes clear when you do not spend all your time trying to derail someone else option, ignore their points and basic meaning of words ^_^


Punching Astarion isn't calling him out Darling. Still can follow basic meaning of words even when someone gives you a link lol ? Its so sad you cant figure out the difference between using words and physical violent. A testament to your lack of reading compensation though. If it is so easy you should provide A source, Like I can easily do with psychological definition and the meaning of words. After all the "burden on proof" is on the one making the argument".

of course you have no argument outside of "abuser fetish derangement syndrome" or what ever this interesting phenomenon that happens when anyone dares criticize this character.

I have given you countless opportunities to inform yourself and where to look. You have provided 0 evidence for any of your claims and continue to argue contrary to well known information. There are no words. Yes, you can kill him. Yes, you can punch him. Yes, you can use your words. The game gives you literally every method to show your disapproval. The only problem is that it makes you wait for it, when Act 1 is longer than Act 2, just to start with. You also have to be reasonably intelligent when picking dialogue, and sometimes just lucky to have him in your party for optional content. Most people who struggle with Astarion fail on the last step.

"go on Youtube" isn't evidence'
"claiming he wants Trust in Act 1" and never sharing the specific scene for whatever you are talking about isn't evidence either.
Being to incompetent to look up what Call someone means VS actions of violence...shocking the abuer defenders thinks talking and violence are the same thing. Yikes yikes !

Pretending abuse and power are similar with no proof isn't a claim either.

"you have provided 0 evidence for any of your claims and continue to argue contrary to well known information"
what nice DARVO just like an abuser. I give they exact scene, and the ACT of each scene I listed in my core post. I even provided a link to the correct meaning of dictionary terminology. You gave nothing, outside of the DARVO of trying to just mimic what I'm saying.

Sorry , not sorry you cant gaslight me into ignore or condoning the action of abuser, child abuser and someone who wants to commit genocide like you want me to lol. Pro tip abuse apologist maybe at least pretend or make up a fact first instead of just saying junk that can be easily disproven.

Extreme laziness to continue living in denial. I think your actual problem with ascended Astarion is that you both are far too alike to get along.

I didn't just write about Ascened Astarion I wrote about Spawn Astarion too- again use some reading comprehension so that your come back can be moderately accurate.
I see we have hit the R stage of DARVO you forgot letter A, try again ?

Oh, I don't nearly dislike spawn Astarion enough to think he deserves that comparison. That would be an insult for the ages. If you want to continue talking, I suggest reflecting on the matter first. I'm not wasting more time on you.

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Oh I know- that's why you are okay with Spawn Astarion trying to convince you to commit genocide. Since it is the Spawn version that is the one pushing that idea in Act 3, and him pushing to kill the other abuse victims in Ac2 & 3 when he learns about the ritual from Raphael after killing the Orthon. See that is the example of a SPEFICIFC example and where it happens.

Stay mad that you cant groom someone to like your mass murder, child abusing, pro genocide fav Since the post was already about how the game doesn't let you address his behavior and rewards it despite you trying to derail from the abusive action.

Op, you could try to get your points across a bit more polite. People are trying to engage and make their points and you just talk down to them.

You can call out Astarion - not as much as you maybe wanted, but for example, as a gnome,you can call him out about his racism, which I found a nice touch.
You can also tell him, that you won't let him kill 7000 spawns and the Gur tribe.
You can downright ask him, why he is so bitchy all the time.
You can tell him that in no way, shape or form will you go along with his plan to control the Absolute.
And yes, if all that isn't enough, just don't recruit him, stake him or give him to Gandrel.

Astarion is one of the evil companions. He can mellow down a bit, but he will never become a good guy. Same as Minthara. If you don't like that, you have a lot of possibilities to get rid of him.

Astarion is written to be a "I can fix him" thirst trap. So he is always kept on an "adorable bad guy" level with the suggestion that you can change him.
Which is why you can never really call him out as that would push him too much into the unsympathic evil direction.

Yeah to me it has always seemed like this is the way anyone playing the game even remotely in a good way should handle Astarion. Just cut off his head. Or better yet, recruit him first then execute him for his crimes, which I personally believe is what is appropriate for most of the so-called companions in this game. It is unfortunate that I can't do this, though, to all those companions.

If you want a polite debate you don’t inter a discussion and start to derail the topic. You certain shouldn't compare him to an abuse victim then cry when someone else has real case studies of real abuse victims..
unless you think trauma and abuse are just fun buzzwords and troupes for a deranged fetish/fantasy 🤔
The top post in this thread is literal a long thirst forum just to talk about the character so its not like their isn't an outlet for Astarion fan's. Their are multiple in fact, however it seems impossible to have a serious debate about him.

quote [The Gnome thing is interesting- but that is race specific.

quote[ You can also tell him, that you won't let him kill 7000 spawns and the Gur tribe.
You can tell him that in no way, shape or form will you go along with his plan to control the Absolute.]

this isnt asking about his opinion, do I have to post the definition of the word 😒

Must I really post the definition for "talking/discussion/calling someone out vs Assaulting someone "
For a rating M game it is disturbing that ya'll don't seem to know the difference.

quote[You can downright ask him, why he is so bitchy all the time.] lol when ? Which Act/ after which battle/story arc can you this ? never ?
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You can in fact Kill Minthara, get lots of loot and that is clearly narratively the good choice.
If you give Astarion to the Gur in Act 1, with Grandal who is hanging out near Ethel all the Gur will die <-- So narrative the game punishes you for making a someone normal choice after hearing one of your companions abducted children. Id say getting an entire racial group of people murdered is pretty clearly a bad choice. The game will punish you for this choice. Maybe this is a glitch, as I don't have 100+ hours to do different play threw but I've heard if you kill him the game wont give you the staff after the Caz ardor battle, ever lets play i've seen he is still alive even if he isn't in the fight.

You can ask all other evil characters to explain their point of view, which I explained in greater detail but of course you all rather dance around the issue then address it.

The topic is interesting, but I'm a really bad conversationalist because my English is so terrible.


Astarion himself says in the dialogue (after you persuaded him not to complete the ritual): "But you saw something in me - someone else I could be. Someone who could break the cycle of power and terror that started centuries ago."

There is no word of "abuse" in this dialoge, or is there somewhere? For me the words "power" and "Terror" are more connected with domination and rulership - when you help him ascend, he is agreeing with you, when you are calling him a tyrant "one tyrant replaces another" – „Precisely. I’m not ashamed, dear. I won, we won.“ The english or american term "circle of abuse" is not mentioned in the game, as far as I know, but by some people due to their view or interpretations of the story.


I myself don't think his arc is about this „cycle of abuse“ in the term of the american meaning (child abuse), but yeah, some people believe this or interpret this this way.
As you said, the majority of people being enslaved or tortured by other people in real life are not having an antisocial personality disorder / sociopathy, ASPD arise through a specific combination of genetic factors in interaction with environmental conditions.
There are slaves who kill their former enslavers, but mostly because they could find no justice in the courts, so southing their own justice through murdering their enslaver were their only way out. Only a few people develop antisocial personality disorder as a result of abuse. But both genetic and environmental factors (e.g., childhood abuse) contribute to the development of antisocial personality disorder, though there is no hint or proof, as far as I know, that this is the case in this story with Astarion. Especially since his past shows a different picture.

I don't think the story/game itself really tries to justify his bad behavior with a trauma (I think players do!) although there have been changes for release. For example, his magistrate history was deleted, in which he was a dubious character even before becoming a vampire. Some people also complain about this. I agree the player character can't react appropriately to Astarion's evil actions and behaviour, or his actions seem not to be punished, which but is done, I think, on purpose. Astarion, for all his evil, should (in the eyes of the creators) remain a character, who can be liked by the players (said by his author, to have humanity so that he is not too one-sided and people like to take him in the party). So his evilness will not be questioned much ingame and swept under the table, so to say. This is the result of that. He's behaving mean and sarcastic to others, but he's most time allowed to be like that, the surrounding is not questioning it too much, a lot of his mean comments are rather meant to be funny, more or less. „Oh..You're not going to eviscerate him? I was hoping for a show.“ is commented by Lae’zel in an encouraging way with „Cool your blood, I’ll indulge you soon enough“.

This whole story is fantasy, it isn't realistic, also Astarion's personality is pure fantasy, it doesn't exist like this in real life. Astarion is, if you want to compare him to a real life person, more like a sociopath - having antisocial personality disorder with some score on psychopathy. He still has some kind of empathy (not much) and other complex feelings / behaviours like feeling guilt (not often), but scores on emotional uninvolvement, ruthlessness, superficial charm, and often has a lack of remorse or guilt. In any case, he tends to be narcissistic, sadistic, machiavellistic.

So: Is the game gaslighting on Astarion's awful behavior? Yes it does, a lot. And also players do it a lot. Everyone has their own opinion. Some people see a trauma as an excuse for his evil behaviour, some people deny, that Astarion is behaving evil (up until ascension), and some people are saying, a trauma could never be an excuse for this evil behaviour.

I think Astarion is not trusting you at all until act 3, he is even turning you into his spawn to have control over you. "I need someone I can trust, and now I know, they'll never betray me". He is not trusting you in act 2, in his confession scene, for me, it seems more like he himself feels awful and he tries to find out, how much of a fool you are, if you will still stand by his side, even after revealing, that he manipulated you. It’s all about him and his feelings. He is just selfpiting, and that’s also a sign of sociopathy (above average self-pity). He doesn’t ask you how you feel. Yep, you don't even have a chance to tell him, what an ass he is, that he manipulated you, I really missed that option. Even if you tell him „I care about you. Deeply.“, he answers „really?“, So he is not really able to trust people, especially up to this point.

But it’s just this. It is written that way, you cannot call him out on his bad character traits. There are even people, pretending, he wasn’t a bad character as a Spawn, it’s fascinating, but that’s how fictional villains work, when they are written for the audience to be liked. They are not written realistic, but charismatic and there need to be the slight hope, that the character/personality would/could change, would have a bit of empathy, would fall in love with someone and behave better.. something like that. Most popular fictional villains are written ambigious on purpose, something between humanity and sociopathy/psychopathy., otherwise people wouldn’t sympathize with them. Even in hannibal the serie, everyone adores the cannibal, he is utterly evil, but still, they managed it, that people are supporting the antagonist. There is this light empathy inside him toward the protagonist, or maybe it’s the hope, that the psychopath develops a conscience for another person, feel for another person, so the result is: Everyone loves him, because even if being a psychopath the serial killer is having a conscience and empathy, even if it’s little or just the hope of it and just toward one person.

I can't say for the other evil companions, have never played with Minthara. But I think Astarion and the story is just written this way to be liked by a lot of people. So like this:

What ? asking someone about their behavior is pushing them to much ? that's insane.


You can fix the other leaning evil characters though. so this doesn't make sense at all. You have a pretty deep & interesting conversation about Shadowheart and her goddess on the testaments of Shar. Same with Minthara & Lazel. A lot of the characters have the 'you can fix them' air about them. With the vampire its more like tolerate him or the game punishes you it. I

But yes, outside of being created for the vampire fetish that exist in the world, i know vampire romance is an entire genre. However this game is rating M and those stories tend to be for teenage girls...children. ?👀

Actually not, it depends on how the writer handle it. It can work out great. But they just decided not to go deep into the personality and behaviour of Astarion, in the meaning, it is not questioned much. I don't know, if it is done because he is a Vampire, as far as I know Stephen Rooney has made other stories without Vampires before BG3, which have a similiar style. About Welch, who wrote some of the romance scenes, I don't know. And why should Vampire stories tend to be for teenage girls or children? I think it depends on the Vampire / story of Vampires, not of "vampires" in general. There are stories for teenagers and there are stories for adults.

Well I appreciate your honesty.
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You are correct- he never says abuse. – I just double checked the ‘Day after beating Cazador speech. However the game describes abuse by the letter. Beating people, carving runes in their skin, keeping them locked in gates, starving them does in fact meet the criteria for abuse. Since the game doesn’t need to say the word abuse it clearly describes it.

[apa dictonary]
abuse
Updated on 04/19/2018
1. n. interactions in which one person behaves in a cruel, violent, demeaning, or invasive manner toward another person or an animal. The term most commonly implies physical mistreatment but also encompasses sexual and psychological (emotional) mistreatment.

Child abuse is not the only type of abuse. Even in English. There are many time of abuse. Verbal abuse, sexual abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse.


Fourth paragraph. I think its both. I never played the Early Access of the game so learning he was a Magistrate for real is interesting. I thought this was just a BS lie he gives the player.
Yeah, no one is stopping anyone from their vampire fetish and knowtowing to their favorite genocidal maniac. The Astarion fan's aren't oppressed because someone wants to talk about his bad behavior JFC. I am not talking about his meaning comments. Their is an entire mega thread just for his fanbase.
I am talking about
• the abducting children
• pretending he never did it/cant remember
• trying to convince the player to commit genocide
• trying to convince the player to kill a group of people he already ADMITED are being abused [the other spawn]
• assaulting the player twice [on meeting them and in your sleep]
this is what people mean when the point out the Astarion fans truly defend and ignore his behavior. The sassy comments he makes are inconsequential to the other horrible things he does.

5th paragraph “”
Thanks, captain obvious, no duh the story is fantasy. People have the right to discuss stories regardless of if they are fantasy or not. This entire thread is for the story & character discussion. Also if you all want to keep it in the fantasy I would suggest not representing things that exist in real life as slavery, abduction, mass murder, the class system etc etc they are all real.

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8th praagraph
A lot of people who commit large scales crimes are charismatic. It is perfectly realistic, however in the real world you can absolutely address their behavior if you live in a country where freedom of speech is protected. In fact on the genocidal leaders I named before where considered forceful and charismatic its now the rose to power.Having good social skills is how a lot of predators get victims from Bill Cosby to Harvey Weinstien. Look up 'Cults of personality"

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Oh I am aware of these disturbed sexual attraction to abusers its usual woman lusting after serial killers or abusive men. It has nothing to do, truly with the hope they will grow empathy IMHO. There is even a word for it. Its called Hybristophilia. A sexual paraphilia[ from the Apa dictionary]

hybristophilia
Updated on 04/19/2018
n. sexual interest in and attraction to those who commit crimes. In some cases, this may be directed toward people in prison for various types of criminal activities.


It is just social unacceptable to say. Since you mentioned Hannibal, from the Tv show yes it’s a thing. From the woman who think Chris Brown ‘did nothing wrong for assaulting Rihanna, or R.Kelly for Sex trafficking. Lots of Tv show characters as well. Because it this paraphilia doesn’t lead to direct crime it usual ignored but it’s still dangerous because of the social ramification and obfuscation of criminal actions. Like woman Rallying for the serial killer Ted Bundy because they are ‘in love’ with him.
Just because it exist doesn’t mean its acceptable.

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I am not talking about other stories I am talking about this one. Stay on topic.

I don't care if the Vampire stories should or should not be for teenager. The fact IS most of the most popular ones are.
From Vampire Dairies, Twilight, Buffy the Vampire. I am sure their are adult vampire romance stories but in America Vampire romances are dominated my media for teenagers. I know their are a lot of adult fan's but the target audience is almost always teenagers/ young adult.

@zayir Probably not on topic...but I found your thoughts on this very interesting to read. I appriciate you taking the time to put it on here.

Thank you I think this thread could be interesting, not only the topic, but also in a psycho-analysing way. Well, I am not allowed to psycho-analyse people or behaviour, so here I am out of course, and just have my own mind and observations.

From interacting with Astarion and from a recent interview with one of his writers, I got the impression that Astarion is not really written as a character to interact with but as a character to observe - if that makes sense. His player dialogue (the things your character says) is in the majority miserably short, doesn't allow a consistent characterisation of the PC (Example: Start of act 3, in the conversation before entering the act proper you can portray a variety of feelings concerning Cazador and the ritual including being on board with it. In the conversation that pops up when entering the act proper, you are always hesitant and slightly scared.) and in general only serves to showcase Astarion's opinion on matters as far as they are important to him. I do have a huge problem with that aspect of his writing, but I wouldn't say that I can't call him out on his behaviour - I think I can do this frequently. My problem is more that I am not allowed to have more complex thoughts and emotions in relation to his behaviour.

I don't often feel the need to call characters out, but I do like having proper conversations with them. You mentioned a scene with Gale in which you violate his privacy (I am not sure why you used quotation marks because what the PC does in this case, is very much rotten behaviour.) by using the tadpole to explore his mind. Afterwards, which is what makes me love this scene, you can feel bad about your behaviour and confess what you did to him, asking for his understanding among other things. If you succeed you garner more insights in his reasoning and values, while making your own felt. In it's most positive spin, it's not "calling Gale out for his shady behaviour" it's a lovely scene about trust and its limits.

Karlach who you so conveniently excluded, otoh, is the character I am frustrated with because - among other things - I cannot call her out on her bullshit. Both the conversations about how ok it is to use soulcoins and about how complicit she was in Gortash's business deals are nipped in the bud. So annoying.

I'll also inadequately give my two cents. I personally have a problem with the title alone (and don't feel the need to go further). I do not feel gaslighted by the game where Astarion's awful behavior is concerned. To me, it's quite obvious. That I am unable to address it, for technical reasons imposed by the medium, or because of more or less valid choices in the writing of it all, is another thing entirely (and at least not gaslighting in regard to his awfulness).