Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion game gaslight on Astarion awful behavior

I agree. Astarion can be utterly evil here.


Well of course we have the right to discuss the story regardless of them being fantasy or not. But it's not possible to create a fantasy world without real life connection. Not even, if someone is insane, 'cause it would just mirror his insanity. So every story, if it's a game, a movie, a book, will represent things that exist in real life. Do you disagree with that? So as soon as you log in, the game is representing things that exists in real life: language, for example. So well, I will not further comment on this.

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Well yes, I agree. But you are misunderstanding a thing. One thing is real life, and one thing is fiction. So this:



I was talking about a fictional serie, not about real life. There is a huge difference between people, who like fictional villains and people, who like real life villains. Huge. You should not and never mistake them. Also in this serie, the creators gave the serial killer a slight of empathy. I was not talking about people would think serial killers can have empathy, but the fictional character IN the serie.


Well the serie I mentioned is liked by women as well as by men. But you are mistaking liking fictional characters/stories with real life persons. Again, that's a difference, a huge, huge difference, which you don't seem to understand.

Why there are people who fall in love with real life serial killers or psychopaths / people with ASPD is beyond my imagination (well yeah, of course you can analyze it, it's just a speaking), though, but it has not much to do with a fictional character like "Astarion".

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quote "I do have a huge problem with that aspect of his writing, but I wouldn't say that I can't call him out on his behavior - I think I can do this frequently."
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Well like all the other people that keep claiming this, give an example and hopefully you wont conflict assaulting someone to talking about it like the others...

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quote In it's most positive spin, it's not just "calling Gale out for his shady behaviour" it's a lovely scene about trust and its limits.
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Consider he has a bomb in his chest that can kill everyone and he wants you to give up your magical items you can in fact question him on it. If you just want to blind trust him you can .Most people care about knowing things that can potential kill them lol. Its called self preservation. Their are so many meme's and jokes about him taking people's loot because this is such a common behavior of players to be upset about loosing items it a bit obscured to pretend you don't get why.


It is defiantly the 'wrong" behavior to probe Gale's mind . Its called an EXAMPLE of how the game lets you read the thoughts of almost everyone example one if you actual want to address the point and not do another 'move the goal post' strawman. Outside of the force mind probe- every character with a secret or who has a another NPC related to their character the tadpole will immediately sink with the companion and the player so they are up to date. For example) information about anything Gith related or finding the slates the game makes sure Lae zel immediately knows. This is one of many ways that the game just treats the Vampire like he is different. you HAVE to bring him to the Flophouse [if you want information on the ritual] or the vampires just come to you. The game just forces you to interact directly with the key points of his story in Act 3.


The only options for the Vampire in Act 3
[hard agree to the ritual]
[hard no one what he is asking]
or treat him like a child and keep asking about his feelings...I dont recall the exact scene/dialogue combination] but the answers that aren't hard no/yes
you can ask if he "feels safe meeting his family"/"tell him you just want him to be happy"
when he try's to tricks the Spawn in Act 3, when the come for him at night you can gaslight them with Astarion you can ask him about if afterwards.

If you don't want to question why someone is trying to convince you to get commit a random act of murder, You do you boo boo but the game says "choices matter" and you defiantly have that choice to question or learn more about everyone thoughts if you are interested.


Yeah I didn't exclude Karlach because she doesn't hide anything from you . Her story isn't that complex and she is just genuine a nice person. You going to provide some proof that she is trying to convince the player to do commit heinous acts of violence or are you just being belligerent? Kalach said she was a child[or more accurately a teenager] when she was a Guard for Gortash. Its pretty normal not not blame children for being groomed for adults unless you think that sort of thing is okay. 🤔

I assume she didn’t know he was experimenting on people with magic altered tadpols because she was in hell. Seems pretty straight forward…did I miss something ?

Astarion does quite a bit explaining after you took him to that drow vendor in Moonrise and let him decide.

He also can be be pretty apologetic and shocked about the Gur children. And depending on what answer you choose, he will apologise to them.
But as I and many others here said, if you want him to fully explain himself, you are out of luck.
You can kill him on the beach or during the bite scene, if you really want without repercussion.

OP is the sort of person who admits to not understanding the difference between synonym and a relation (I assume they have nightmares about group theory), but the reveal of not blaming Karlach for anything Astarion did during his youth... Is hilarious. They were both grooming victims, respectively considered children by their culture when getting involved with the underworld. Astarion may even be mentally arrested at teenagehood because of his vampirism. That would turn another light on his highly selfish tendencies. That's not an age group with a fully developed prefrontal cortex. Though, I'm not sure the game means to imply this last part. It's very insistent that it comes from his personal philosophy. It's just another layer next to the questionable presence of innate alignment, capable of distorting thinking processes.

Well first of all this is what you said


which is why I said

So responding to this


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Lots of people enjoy the critical thinking skills of felids of Study called " Media studies" because media effects the world. That's why people can study 'Media Literacy' to see if what is being portrayed is accurate wither it's the news or something represented in fantasy. It is fully irrelevant if it the story is fake or not all media has an effect on the world, the culture. That's why people make money criticizing media, that's why their are popular websites like Rotten Tomato or Youtube commentary channels.


You claimed yourself that you like to "psycho-analyze a character" that would involve real world thinking.


Pick a struggle mate.

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It isn't that difference because all the people I listed are preforms, they show the audience and 'fake unrealistic representation' that is different from their true selves. Plenty of artist who just shared the "fantasy" in their songs of doing illegal things turns out they actual did them, themselves. People care more about the stage character and how much they like them then the crimes the commit or the evidence. Same for anyone what writes a book and later is found to have committed crime . The sort of media you like does indeed say a lot about you. Their are reason why certain forms of media are illegal or censored because its well known to have a negative effect. The most obvious is CP draw or not is illegal for this reason its illegal in most countries and violates Obscenity and child protection laws. The ESRB for video games, The comics Book authority and plenty of other media regulation exist for this reason. You can just say and portray whatever you want with out criticism, scrutiny, loosing money or in some case a criminal case.

Yeah the Drow scene doesn't explain his penchant for genocide, wanting his siblings who were also abused to die, the fact that he try's to assault you twice. 0 accountability answers. He also spends the entire game complaining and stating he wont do XYZ, so him mentioning that this is the first time [?] ill have to recheck the dialogue, having freedom of choice in a while when he has had //nothing// but that when he is traveling with you, shows lacking in continuity to say the least. Also no one in 'uses his body' he is not are captive prostituted & he is also the one that hits on the Avatar. I understand that we are getting more of his backstory but it doesnt really expalin his thinking.


Alright the bit about the Gur children is just a straight up lie.
He isn't sad about them at all. He tells you he doesn't remember doing it at all, then says it was Cazador who controlled him and made him do it. and its VERY weird how he says he doesn't remember but then says he didn't trick them with 'sweet nothings ?' [or something like that]
Very Prince Andrew " I never met that girl, and If I did I didn't do anything"..... yo wHAT ?

If you play Origin Astarion, or take control of his character you can //force him// to be sorry to the children.but the way the character is written indecently he is not like that at all. If he goes to the Gur on his own he will offer to help them if the Avatar isn't their, but he doesn't apologies.

yeah that's why i'm criticizing the game, that's how criticism works. Its based of your thoughts after you fully read/watched/ the media lol.

You clearly didn't pay enough attention and I don't appreciate to be called a liar, op.
I played the game a lot of times and had him apologize to the Gur. Not directly, he doesn't do anything directly, but he swore to take revenge.
You clearly want to hate on that character and that is ok. Not everyone has to like every character, I could tell you a lot of what I don't like about Halsin, but you also just look for the fault in the answers people give you. You have not w answers from people critical of Astarion like Silver and me and if fans like Kira. Take it or leave it, but don't get personal.

😂 😂 😂
Not getting enough attention ~Darling~ ?.

I mean not only can you not prove your point,
know the difference between talking & and an act of violence against someone
provide proof for your statement
you cant even stick to your own mediocre values
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I don't follow anime P3Do logic where a character who is a 100+ years old is secretly a child. Astarion is a grown men & Kalach was a teenager by normal non anime creeps standards when they first ended up with their abuser. Thoughts its super telling you do, on top of your obsession with defending your "problematic fav".

Also that's not grooming works. Here is another link to an actual fact you failed to know.

RAINN
https://rainn.org/news/grooming-know-warning-signs

Astarion doesn't fit the criteria .[All grooming isn't sexual but most free resources cover sexual grooming so that's why I'm using. He defiantly fits "some" of the but their are two criteria the
"Trust development and keeping secrets/
Attempt by abusers to make their behavior seem natural"
and a maybe for the "Desensitization to touch and discussion of sexual topics<-- Cazardor seems to have gone straight to physical violence not sexual/

That doesn't excuse that advocation of genocide like you want it too, though !

Let’s take the heat down, and as people have said let’s not have any personal attacks and try to keep it constructive and respect that we’ll have different opinions and that’s okay.

lol you just admitted to lying.
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More proof OP does not know half of Astarion's scenes or lore. He was not an adult when he "ended up with Cazador". Just leaving hints here for people who do not know what they're dealing with: this person does not know half the scenes, refuses to look at them, and does not intellectually distinguish concepts like synonym, group, and relation.

This is not an insult towards OP, but this thread has to be summarised by now.

Might be in some cases. But is this the majority? Is the majority of people, writing a book about crimes, commiting or wishing to commit crimes? Media (fiction), consumed by adults, doesn't have a negative effect on them per se. This can of course occur to certain people, a few, who have a genetic predisposition to it. Ted Bundy was claiming violent porn was the reason for his crimes, do you believe him? Do you think media had a negative effect on him? Do you think, without consuming violent porn, he wouldn't have murdered?
Violent porn for example, is a case, which may tell things about you, sure, but also this, it doesn't mean you're going to commit crimes or wish this to be real. It also may depend on things like if the person consumes real violent porn (watching real crimes/r*pes) or fictional violent porn, and in fictional violent porn there are also a lot of shades and tastes. It's not just black and white. It's not possible to lump together people who consume media or artists, who create art, with criminals.

Well, to come back to the topic: Astarion cannot be compared to real life persons, he does feel empathy and guilt, and players do like this about him. If he wouldn't have the humanity-side in him, the majority of people wouldn't like him. He is a fictional character with unrealistic combined personality traits (good and bad ones). It's just impossible to compare him with a real life person or a real life personality, and so it is impossible to say people, liking this fictional character, would like or how you called it "lusting after" real life serial killers or tolerating crimes. Or something like that, if this is, what you're trying to say.

I think Larian wanted to create a funny and enjoyable fictional villain / evil companion (with good and bad traits) and they did quite good with him due to his popularity. I agree with you, that Astarion is quite evil in some of his actions and it's not possible to call him out so much. But that's what seems to be intended. Not every taste can be met.

Temporarily locking this thread as the OP has failed to adhere to moderation warnings. I will give them the benefit of the doubt that they hadn’t seen them, hence locking this thread for a few hours to allow them to catch up.

Pretty much my take as well. When I’m doing a good play through my character always kills the hostile Astarion when encountered. If I’m playing neutral he gets killed if he puts the knife to my throat otherwise I reject him as a companion and we go our separate ways. If I’m morally compromised and take him I’m really not of a mind to call him out as I’m likely of a similar mind.

I certainly don’t agree with the term gaslighting which implies Larian deliberately created the so-called lack of calling out opportunities. Thats just down to writing imitations/oversight in my book.

Yeah, the title is overly dramatic and the discussions with OP a train wreck. The person is now on my ignore list. I use Astarion on a good playthrough too. If I can deal with a githyanki and a Sharran, I can take the spawn along too, but if you don't want to, you can get rid of him in many ways and you can call him out on many occasions.

Astarion is the sort of individual where, if you truly want to put an end to his shenanigans, he either needs 24/7 forever supervision or a stake through the heart. There is no third path. He's not someone we can fix. In many a person's story, he was the villain. The evil characters all have this in common.

Additionally, his way of "apology" isn't words, but actions. Astarion is someone who has been made to lie a lot for Cazador. You know he's sorry when he actually changes his behaviour. That's not a comprehensible communication style to people who can't read between the lines, but certainly a trait that for once very highly is to blame on trauma.

I'd just like to add a thing on this specific topic, in general, not to a specific person!
Childhood abuse can be a factor that increases the likelihood of developing personality disorders (among other things) or antisocial behaviour. Also the so-called Cluster B Personality disorders (narcissistic, borderline and antisocial personality disorders) are more likely to develop after severe traumatic childhood experiences. Child abuse cannot excuse acts of violence or hurting, abusing or at worst killing other people, but it can often explain it. An explanation can be very important for helping with prevention.
If there are people who resonate with Astarion's behaviour (antisocial personality disorder, narcissistic disorder, antisocial behaviour) or story, reflecting how they were or are harming or abusing other people, being toxic or narcissistic, antisocial, but really want to change their behaviour or don't want to abuse others like they may have been abused in their childhood by others, I can only suggest them to try to find a good psychotherapist, who is well educated on this specific topic, and to understand and learn, how to reduce abusing and harming other and innocent people and how to not focuse on themselves (especially when having narcissistic disorder or having a high score on it). Personality disorders are difficult to treat and it's also difficult to unlearn antisocial behaviours (harming other people) occuring from abuse, which is why it is important to find an experienced and unbiased psychotherapist who can empathize with the sufferer's self-image, sensitive areas and usual coping strategies. It is really important to learn how to not abuse and harm other people or children.

Astarion and Minthara is the perfect partners in crime for a evil playthrough. I never felt the need to call them out. Maybe I did in my first goodish playthrough, I can't remember.
I can imagine Astarion being a bit annoying if you are strictly playing a good Tav, much as Karlach is a bit annoying on a evil one. As for gaslighting, never felt that.
Astarion is evil and that's why many players love his character. Zayir has some interesting psychoanalysis on why. I agree it is very important to separate fantasy from reality. It's a huge difference between enjoying horror and wanting it to be real.
I like horror in fanatsy, but the news? Nope, I can't watch it at all lately with all the horrors of war on.

I have anxiety and love horror. It's a good way to deal with it. That's why act 2 is my favourite part of the game, you are basically in Lovecrafts wet dream. And yes, it is good and healthy to separate fantasy and reality, but stories can help people to deal with quite a bit.
That said, I prefer to play good in BG3,since I just like too many NPCs. But imo, if you want, you can call Astarion out quite a lot. He will not always acknowledge it or react like a toddler, but he is changing. His conversations are more friendly and he starts approving, if you help people, has different banter and is generally more open minded. He is an evil character, but he can go one way or the other, depending on what he takes from the group. If I'd ever do an evil playthrough ( maybe after patch 7), I would use Astarion for that for sure.
Astarion certainly starts out annoying in a good playthrough and I honestly have a hard time letting him into the group after he tries to kill my character at the beach and it takes quite a lot of metagaming not doing it, but since I normally get the bite scene always very early in the game, he starts telling about his life as Cazadors slave very early and it is easy to feel sympathy, if you have a bit of empathy. So I always make the 'We watch each others back" deal with him.

Tbh, I was afraid, he would turn out to be a catering to the Twilight crowd and as annoying as most of the modern day vampire tropes, but luckily, he didn't go down that route.

Personally, I really enjoyed Astarion’s story arc when playing a chaotic good character willing to support him, so I would strongly recommend not ruling out bringing him along in a good party. Popping a brief précis in spoilers below, both because it is a spoiler and also a bit off topic:


But while, given the choices and rolls in my good playthroughs, Astarion didn’t do anything particularly heinous, I know he can be dodgy. And while I don’t recall feeling that there were important missing opportunities to challenge Astarion specifically, I’m sure there are gaps in particular scenarios, as I’ve come across a number of instances across the game in general where I’ve not been happy with the available options for dialogue or action. Some of those probably do reflect the writers’ preconceptions of what the player might be thinking at that point, but I’ve never actually felt gaslit or as though the game wasn’t allowing me to make up my own mind about what I was seeing. And given the size and complexity of the game, I’m generally willing to headcanon a suitable response where the game doesn’t give me one, though I’ve tended to report as a bug/feedback when there’s been absolutely no way in the game to reflect a reaction that I’ve felt was significant to how the story plays out.