Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion game gaslight on Astarion awful behavior

For me he doesn't fit my evil playstyle as I prefer playing the scheming deceptive evil rather than cackling megalomaniac. I felt like my PC would constantly have to try keeping him from playing our hand: "Astarion, shush! We are not going to pick a fight with this community out in the open where we are outnumbered 50 to 1. Let's play nice and earn their trust and then backstab them when we have the odds on our side." And then Astarion just rolls his eyes and moans about how dreadfully boring we are. Like fine, I'll keep you in camp when we talk to people then and I'll let you know when the spilling of blood is about to begin.

For my canon playthrough where I had no metaknowledge beyond parts of act 1 that I had seen in early access and I played my character to react to things making the most logical choices that fit their personality and what they knew, I sent Astarion away after he tried to bite me. My logical reasoning for this was that I already knew him to be dishonest, so there was too much risk trusting that this time he would stay true to his word.

Trusting him turns out to be a very beneficial decision in the end, but it is objectively a terrible decision at that pont in the game when looking at all the facts you have in front of you.

I also didn't necessarily feel the need to talk to Astarion about his psychopathic score or discuss it with him haha. Joke aside, there are a few moments where you can call him out a bit, as others mentioned before, e.g. whether he envies Cazador (which indirectly implies whether he would also like to have that power or is as ruthless as him), and especially up until act 3 he usually reacts in accordance with his character (like Narcissism, Machiavellianism, and only sometimes with a bit empathy) or in this case, agrees. Or after ascension when he is told that one tyrant replaces another, when he honestly admits it. (Which I do really like! It shows he is very self-confident and don't feel the urge to lie or to hide. Or he doesn't even take it as a critical comment). If he could have been called out on other occasions, he would have responded in the same way, I would assume.
Apart from the spawn route, which I don't like for certain reasons, I think Astarion's reactions are mostly pretty brilliantly made and, thank God, he doesn't lose his narcissistic traits in the ascending route.


No, for me, not at all, but I have my own taste. The only thing, which sometimes was a bit annoying, when playing a good Tav, is, when he disapproves on your good choices. But he never said annoying things, on the contrary, he showed a great interest in my naive and shy Tav (even without much approval) and so he seduced him really early in the game, and before the party. I loved that. It was well done by Larian.


I think this word from the op is a strong one and probably has a negative connotation, I think what we see in the game is a stylistic device in making an evil character interesting and loveable. Like, the game or story doesn't focus or calls out so much on Astarion's evil behaviours, and it's surely not made in a negative, but in a positive way or thought: To create an evil character, which can be liked and romanced by players. Also in movies and other fiction, when the intention is to create a villain, people but should sympathize with them or should find them very interesting (sooner or later), they for example would probably not focus on the suffering of the victims. Because if the focus would be too much on the victims and you would feel empathy with them, you would not sympathize with the villain and start to disgust him, at least, the majority. But using this stylistic device doesn't mean, that people, who indeed like the villain, would not recognize this, most people know and understand, what's right and wrong.

Like you, I always try to make the choices that best fit my PCs’ characters and what they know. Whether those choices are logical or not will depend on the character I can see why many good characters would send Astarion away or even kill him after the bite scene, but I’ve now done two chaotic good playthroughs (despite trying to mix it up and play different characters, it is my happy place) and in both Astarion stayed with the party but for different reasons. In my first, my PC wouldn’t kill him once he’d backed off and was willing to extend the benefit of the doubt that he’d not killed before, but sending him off to potentially prey on innocents seemed irresponsible so she thought she’d better keep him where she could keep an eye on him. My second chaotic good PC was an erratic risk taker with a heart of gold, so would always be happy to give folk a second, third and even fourth chance, and was also fascinated by everything and had never met a vampire spawn before so it was an excellent opportunity for new experiences and knowledge (this was my cleric of Oghma/ jack-of-all-trades playthrough).

My PC's decision wasn't as much based in good or evil morality. She was more of a pragmatist acting in self-interest. What she had learned about Astarion at that point is that he was dishonest and he seemed like someone who could jump ship at a moment's notice. So he was too much of a liability and it was the best chance she would have to dismiss him before he could manipulate the other companions to take his side (which she was intending to do herself and she did not want competition).

@Zayir

CW: Discussion of abuse, trauma and its possible repercussions, especifically talking about real cases.
This has been edited to exclude more sensitive sections that were improper to discuss on a videogame forum (my bad!), so it might be a bit less coherent, but hopefully my points still stand solidly enough.

Reading your last reply to me, I find it very hard to make out what you are actually going on about, especially since a few points are simply untrue.

All the three characters who harbour secrets (Astarion, Gale and Shadowheart) are roughly treated the same in the way their secrets are presented. Gale is the odd one out because his secret is a true secret for both the PC and the player, so his reveal happens much more naturally. In Astarion and Shadowheart's cases, it is obvious to the player what they are, while the reveal to the PC is staged through a couple of events - in Astarion's case, him sneaking off, you finding the boar and eventually bite-night. It is not true that you cannot mind-link with Astarion, which you seem to imply. The PC can do this twice, once when the tadpole connects you during your initial meeting and a second time during bite-night when you can check his claim that he is usually feeding from animals. This second instance is functionally the same as what you do with Gale, invading his privacy to fish for informations.

People have given you several examples for when you can challenge Astarion's believes too. You even brought up your own because I thought the scene when his siblings visit the camp give me ample opportunity to act against his wishes and call him out for being uncaring towards the other spawn. To add another example, if you do go down the "you think power lets you do anything" route in the bear-dinner scene, you can do nothing but challenge his believes. There is no option to agree with him.

I think the only scene in which I truly feel like I am missing the opportunity to challenge him (besides what I already mentioned) is the scene after defending him from Araj on the romanced route. Here he happily tells you that he exploited you and mocks you for it, right after thanking you for not doing the same to him and - unless you want to break-up with him - you can only continue by telling him that you care about him. But I have ranted about this at length in other threads, so I'll leave it at this.

As for Karlach, she was a bodyguard to a rising arms-dealer and crime lord, yet she plays the "I thought everything was about board" card, which means she is either somewhat stupid or deliberately looked the other way while knowing full and well what was going on. So it bugs me a lot that I cannot challenge this story of performative innocence, since I frankly don't buy it.

Stories is a good way to deal with it, I heartily agree.


I think I do see what you mean,





I was mainly thinking of the constant disapproval. Everyone is so different, I would not want to downplay anyones choices in game. I can totally see the allure with having a good Tav falling for Astarion who "corrupts" them. Honestly it was kind of my first playthrough! Although my Tav lost much of their shy, naive nature by Act 3, hehe.


You say it very well. I agree if the focus was more on the victims without knowing him too much his part in the story would be very different. I still don't feel "gaslit" because the story makes it very clear he is evil or at least someone you should watch out for. It's why I found him so interesting on my first playthrough. "Why is he so shady? What is he hiding?"

Ascended route has you killing 7000 people and a whole tribe of Gur.SInce I don't fancy playing evil, this is not what I like to do. Plus I actually like the Gur, especially Gandrel and Uma. I also would never accept Bhaal, since that is accepting slavery again. I think, spawn Astarion can go at least to the chaotic neutral category, ascended more neutral to chaotic evil. I'm not discussing what the better route is, since there are enough threads about this topic, this was just to point out, that unlike Minthara, Astarion and Lae'zel, the other evil companions, can have drastic changes based on how their stories unfold.

Somewhat unrelated, but

If you talked to the Gur kids and Sebastian, you can find out, that the Gur actually take care of their kids again and Sebastian writes you a letter, that the spawns are doing fine in the Underark. He and Astarions brotehrs and sisters are helping them stay on path.

Just highlighting a recent addition to forum rules: “While we are aware that sometimes users might want to have these discussions in reference to the games, please try to keep conversations about heavier topics (abuse, sexual assault, etc) within spoilered text with an appropriate warning, so other users can choose if they want to engage.”

Could I ask folk to bear that in mind here, and that this is intended to be a fun, open forum about video games so maybe don’t go *too* heavy or controversial even in spoiler tags?

Cheers!

You're right, my bad. I'll remove the segments of my comment that tackle the heavier topics, and spoil the rest since it's pretty overwhelmingly about that. Thanks for the reminder!

My issue is more of how long that lasts and how further writers may treat the issue. They have

From the way it is described in the letters by the Gur and Sebastian, as well as in the two versions of Under Dark Epilogue that I know of, they are mostly busy trying to survive and create a somewhat comfortable life out for themselves. It is stated that some of the spawn didn't survive and others didn't choose to stay with the community.

I don't think it's an odd take at all. Vampires

Hey, the churches of Lathander and Kelemvor can always do with some more stuff to do.

But, on a more serious note. The number is just something Larian's writers pulled out of their butts that sounded imposing and dramatic. They obviously did not consider the sheer logistics behind such a population of vampire spawns. Even before releasing them, the entire premise of Cazador housing such a population in his dungeons is implausible. On top of the sheer size of that dungeon (especially if the cells where we see Sebastian are to be considered the standard), he would need a massive workforce of slaves and servants to maintain it and a constant traffic of supplies going to and from the palace.

So you need to use suspension of belief to accept that this spawn population exists in the first place, so what happens to them afterwards is simply a matter of applying more of that suspension of belief.

Totally agree. And the ones,w e've met, seemed to be pretty nice, maybe apart from the one guy with the longer hair, but he could just deal with everything happened to him the way, Astarion did in the beginning.

It's really one of those magic number games like Astarion's gravestone, where I can only wonder what the writers actually meant to imply. The state of their lodgings in the undercity, I generally blame on the whole structure belonging in the upper city and so being possibly largely unfinished.

Meh it’s 7k predatory evil undead abominations.

May they burn in the 9 hells.

Astarion himself doesn't do anything wrong in the game, he may approve of some of Tav's evil actions or disapprove of good ones. Basically, all companions do not independently do anything contrary to Tav's decisions. And if we talk about the lines, then, for example, the story of "good" Jaheira about how she chained the spawn to the sidewalk and made them wait for the dawn, that is, not killed them for safety, but exactly that she made the living creature suffer, realize the approach of death and helplessness, realize that they will be executed, realize it all night long, and then - die a painful and cruel death, causes much more disgust to her character than all the "evil" lines of the evil companions. That said, Ascended Astarion disapproves if I turn Jaheira over to Sarevok, although it's a very logical action from an evil character's point of view and could be done for Astarion's own safety, since Jaheira hates him and promises to become an "annoying neighbor" in the future, and it would be wise to eliminate her in advance as a preventative measure. But Astarion is against this, there is no rational explanation for his reaction, except that he is not as evil in deed as he says he is periodically in words.

I personally was severely lacking at many points in the game in terms of opportunities for good, loving and supportive interactions with Astarion, options to challenge and harm him abound in the game. I don't need these options, and don't do so in any walkthrough, but they come across regularly, and I've watched videos of these options, and I believe the authors have given every opportunity for such roleplay. And, of course, there is no "gaslighting" in BG3, as OP wrote about, the main plot of Astarion is written perfectly, this character can be perfectly understood and felt, there are serious missed opportunities and problems specifically in romance, but about this has already been written many times in other threads. And so, this companion, in my opinion, perfectly combines with both evil and good style of passage.


I agree, so many of his reactions are brilliantly made, I can't help but admire him, and enjoy it every time. His narcissistic traits suit him very well, but at the same time he doesn't think only of himself, his attention is on Tav, he's flaunting himself in front of Tav, that's how I perceive his behavior in romance.


Yeah, I really liked the way it was done too. In the first blind playthrough I was worried about his disapproval, I was thinking not even about romance, but about how to be with him, so that the relationship would not be spoiled too much (I was afraid that he would betray or leave, in BG2 evil companions could easily do something like that), and not to do evil deeds for the sake of Astarion and his approvals, I was waiting for some personal quest to raise his approval at the expense of it. The bite scene was a revelation, I understood everything after that, my perception of the character took on a whole new color. And the sudden, just amazingly sudden invitation for a date - this has never happened in any game before! I just helped him with Gandrel, and decided to protect and defend him, not expecting any romance, thinking that maybe it won't work out, maybe I'm "not evil enough" for him, maybe I'll be without a pair in this walkthrough, and then I'll decide whether to be evil or not. This early seduction scene creates a nice wow effect, it's well done, not to mention the date scene itself, and when you see his scars, and how he meets the dawn the next morning. The 1st act with Astarion is great.




I also like the option of a good Tav to whom Astarion opens her eyes to a dangerous and cruel world. My Tav goes from a fun-loving and reckless girl who was too light-hearted at first, to gradually understanding and realizing what this world is all about, through Astarion's fate and how hostile this world can be. She becomes smarter, more rational and realizes the importance of power. She will never allow this world to harm Astarion again, and transforms from a lighthearted chaotic-good character into a calculating neutral-evil, something of a dark knight and advisor to the Lord. Given that Astarion doesn't like to plan, hehe, she'll try to complement him. Two darlings - one head, I've come across that expression in English, and the vampire bride option fits perfectly with that.