Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion game gaslight on Astarion awful behavior

*Id like to have a serious discussion if possible but will see I guess* [spoilers for the entire game]

Well I’’ be clear I think this character is interesting but the tiniest of thought about he is an awful person. However it’s not just that he is awful as the game has a lot of companions that evil/ can be evil. Astarion is just written to get away with a lot of bad behavior that others are not from the reward system, to [according to the IGN of making clear punishments for killing children] And in general you can almost never call him out for his behavior.
For example- in Act after learning about everyone you can call out everyone for their shady behavior. Minus Karlack because she never lies.

*You can question Wyll on his hierocracy for making a pack with a demon.

* You can ‘violate’ Gales privacy and see why he is hiding about the orb, with detect thoughts or again yell at him for keeping It secret.

* you can ask Lae zel about her bad attitude after she starts to like you even if your approval is low from just killing some key game figures.

* Recruit Minthara the good way you can always ask her about her opinion, even if it’s a bit deranged she will at least have an answers for you. Which is well thought out

* Astarion tries to bite you in your sleep, if you reject him he will claim it was silly of him to ask. he NEVER asked though in fact even in his 'supposed 'growth' in Act 2 he will refer to never do things later in the game. When recruiting Minthara he will be 'scared of getting stabbed in his sleep. You can mention its no different then getting bitten. Which he claims he never did lol/ Their also the 'ask before you bite" line in DURGE. Again he never asked. Its one thing for a character to be a liar [fine] but again you just can never address any of his behavior 90% of the time.

The game actual never allows you to question his behavior except once or twice, in Act 3 and its really a nothing answer. The scene I refer to is if he wants to trick the spawn to siding with him when wants to sacrifice them and all you get is a h “well im better”. Only at the end of his [good] ending, or if you are smart enough to break up with Ascended Astarion immediately does he tell you he was manipulating you [which yeah its obvious] but again you cant say anything bout it tell his story is over. In fact its wild he will admit to manipulating in act 2 DEPENDING on how you get his confession if you 'romance' him, then proceed to try to manipulate your feelings all the way to act 3 by asking if you really care about him why wont you let him [kill 7 random stranger who is has been clear are also abused] and you can say nothing about except cut him off, agree or just keep worrying about his feelings.[despite the claim ive read from gamers that he has changed in act 2..he has not] Its one thing for a character to be a liar [fine] but again you just can never address any of his behavior 90% of the time.



If his arc is suppose to be about the cycle of abuse I think its a bit to caricature, I mean runaway slaves & people that commit genocide are real yet Astarion logic is "I was abused so I should be able to kill the people who were abused along side me in a demonic ritual sacrifice[ and the abuser]. Never heard that before. Lot of victims want to kill their abuser but the people who were abused along side them ? I don't recall hearing/reading that behavior. It feels more like a use of the Freudian excuse media trope. Their is a difference between having a nasty attitude from being abused and maybe violent against potential aggressors and planning to be a family annihilator [which isnt caused by abuse.]


I recall the IGN article about the developers saying, you can make bad choices but their will be consequences for that. For example if you kill children in the grove the game wont let you kill children “explicitly” also if they did their ERSB rating would be worst. Now with the vampire though you do in fact get rewarded a lot for Ascended him. Just another example of how he gets different treatment then other characters or consequence systems in the game.

I mean, yes, you haven't heard about ritual sacrifices that involve 7k people irl because they don't happen. In stories they tend to do over-the-top metaphors for things. Shadowheart's story is about having your identity eroded by an abuser/cult, not about an actual deity of Loss giving you amnesia. Same with Astarion. It's not literally about traumatized people wanting to kill those around them, it's just the way the game is conveying the idea it's trying to more effectively, whether you think it works or not is up to you of course.

On that point, I think you're wrong about abused people not being able to want to harm others other than their abuser. This is extremely common and both heard of in real life and fiction. Astarion's story is most closely trying to reflect that of familial cycles, so imagine it as the well known tried and true "dad abuses son, son grows up into a dad, new dad abuses his new son, new son becomes a dad once again, etc etc".
And even without that I think it's extremely common for some victims to try to gain power over others by hurting them because they feel powerless, and they've been hurt. Astarion's killing of the 7k also seems to stand for him trying to evade and destroy any evidence of his own abuse, so I think that also makes sense as a parallel to how real victims might try to avoid facing what's happened to them and "run" instead.

People that commit genocide in the real world do exist though. Also their are people who commit ritual sacrifice in cults. Their are plenty of stories of people killing each other or themselves for their beliefs like the Heaven's Gate Massacre. The magic element of the game does have a real world equivalent if you remove the fantasy part.
Shadow heart is full of personality, despite the years of her memory being erased. She starts to question her "religions teaching" all the way in Act 1. Everyone starts to question their world view a little in Act 1....except Astarion.

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You are ignoring what im saying, and officiating the point. Trying to convince people to commit genocide is NOT normal even in people with sever abusee.
People that commit genocide are Real- Joseph Stalin- Adolph Hilar, The Butcher of Uganda, Mussolini. None of them wanted to just commit genocide because of "abuse" their were several other factors in their behavior like racism, the state of their country and ideology. Most abuse victims don't advocate for genocide ..none that ive heard of .

Please name ONE.
Name someone who was a slave who attempted to commit mass genocide on their siblings and random people. Not their slave masters, not a civil war to become free.

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This just isn't true *most* of the time, its actual an excuse a lot of abuser claim to get less jail time. It reminds me of reading the case study of Son of Sam who claimed a dog made him commit the murder but once you actual start to question people , they will tell the truth on how they just do so because they enjoy it once they run of manipulation tactics. This game wants to use psychology [as the study of abuse is psychology] to excuse bad behavior but in reality the study of criminology or forensic psychology will show that most people who do heinous crimes have high levels of psychopathy. The field of psychology likes to argue if anti-personality disorder and psychopathy are different but here is one definition from the America Psychological Disorder. Its a personality disorder one is born with the core cause not being abuse at all.

antisocial personality disorder
Updated on 11/15/2023
the presence of a chronic and pervasive disposition to disregard and violate the rights of others. Manifestations include repeated violations of the law, exploitation of others, deceitfulness, impulsivity, aggressiveness, reckless disregard for the safety of self and others, and irresponsibility, accompanied by lack of guilt, remorse, and empathy. The disorder has been known by various names, including dyssocial personality, psychopathic personality, and sociopathic personality. It is among the most heavily researched of the personality disorders and the most difficult to treat.


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No it is not, this can be debunked by just looking at the low correlation of criminals various victims. Back to reality- living 200+ is impossible but their are plenty of high profile case of victims, usual woma,n who have been held against their will and torture by deranged men for years. Look up "Joseph Fritzl, "Girl in a Box", Ariel Castro" for a few extensive case studies. Their is a clear type of serial killer that does indeed to a 'human' version of what Cazardor does with are meager amount of years we are live. The victims don't grow up wanting to commit mass murder. Some might become activist, most are traumatized and just want a normal life. When serial killers who do seem to kill people based of their abuse they have a type. They don't just kill randoms.[That's one of keys to knowing its a serial killer, the fact that they have a victim type or specific type of person they kill]

In a way, Astarion moves on from trusting no one to reluctantly trusting the player in Act 1 (given reason: shared interest in survival). His world view isn't changing, but his patterns of behaviour are.

The ascension route affirms to him that the only way to trust is to have the power to enforce your desired results. Most people see a commentary on the cycle of abuse, but I see one on the hunger for power. This includes the reasons to want power -- avoiding victimisation, self fulfillment, even healing.

How people see the ascension route is influenced massively by how the view power. There are people who straight up refuse to believe it's the "bad" ending. There are also people who see Astarion as either a fullfilled or unfulfilled, *unrealized* egomaniac. To them, the difference between the routes is negligible. There are also people who see spawn Astarion as a good guy. It's really rather curious.

Personally, as a concept in lore, vampire spawn are automatically and inherently evil. Whatever their alignment before the change, it doesn't matter. I think Larian brought that to screen very well, though there are people who disagree with me on that Astarion or anyone is meant to have an alignment. He is like the Durge in that there is complexity between nature and nurture. His nature is, I believe, neutral evil though. You can encourage him to be good, but it will never fully go away.

How does he trust you ?
I mean he tries to eat you in your sleep, and he sticks around because strength in numbers. He also still complains about everything you do in Act 1 & Act 2 if you make 'goody goody choices" what are the changes I missed ?

I think the game makes the narrative pretty clear it's about cycle of abuse. They say it directly in the dialogue after you get the good ending in Act 3 for 'The Pale Elf" storyline. He says that he ends the cycle of abuse. [Even though he is the only one who got to Kill Cazador ....despite his siblings being abused too lol, seems to be he is selfish tell the end just not a mass murder]

By Act 3 most people are Level 12, We Killed a God's Chosen, Outsmarted a Lich Queen [if you went to the mountain pass] and many other powerful enemies. I understand if the vision of your abuser is stronger in your head from years of abuse but as I wrote above in more detail- the extreme and almost caricature level of delusion he has about is over the top & not realistic because A.) run away slaves B.) people that commit genocide c.) the psychology of abuse are all real

.[on top of the game never letting you question him, maybe id see growth if we could see his opinion on things but you aren't allowed to call him out . . ]

You can't separate the concept of abuse from power. Put another way, the concept of power is larger than the cycle of abuse, but it will always include the cycle of abuse.

Astarion does tell you who he is depending on the choices you make. He also may not. He's certainly very open about his pursuit when it would be easier to lie and make himself seem easy to protect. There is a lot of tentative honesty. Tentative trust, conditional trust, placed on the belief that he is in control. Astarion is a very certain type of person. The type that cannot trust nor feel safe when not in control. That's why he manipulates in relationships as well, and sees them as a *resource*. You are a resource to him. The growth people see in him is the return of the capacity for some other emotions, sociopathic as that may sound.

Food for thought: when people try to write an evil character, they tend to to mean selfish. Astarion making an unselfish decision by sparing the spawn is by this logic the good route. It's not redemption and it's not change. It's about even having the *capacity* to be unselfish, and therefore be good, which before this point was not clear. I'm aware this is not very satisfying. I've had my own gripes with the spawn ending.

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Yes you can- by definition they are not synonymous at all.


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You are also ignoring what I wrote and officiating the point
post some proof mate, name something in the story that proves he trust you. This is thread full of spoilers so if you had a point you would share it or is just blind abuser worshiping ? maybe I "tagged" it wrong ? but I did put the spoiler for entire game in description.....


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yeah I'm not lost on that he is a bad person, did you read the title ? Or just see ~negative opinion on vampire~? I am talking about how the game itself doesn't let you question it & it also excuse his behavior and rewards it unlike any of the other massacres in the game. It lets you question ever other evil/questionable character.

Food for thought, did you even read what I said or are you just hear to kowtow to the favorite abusive character the game doesn't let you question ? Because you haven't shared a single fact that could show a counter opinion my point about the game, didn't address anything and now your pretending words mean different things.
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If you don't care about this topic that's fine but you decided to post in the thread and just avoid any accountability or genuine discussion .

A) I did not say they are synonymous, I said one is in the sphere of the other. Example: A and B are both letters of the alphabet and cannot be "removed" from it. That does not mean the letter A is a synonym for the alphabet.

B) I gave you a precise example of trust. He chooses not to lie despite lying being the smart choice, very early on in Act 1. All he had to do was to not admit to being hunted by a powerful vampire. At the very least, he should portray him as weaker than he is, not trauma dump all over your salad.

C) Astarion is not my favourite anything. I neither like nor dislike him.

D) The "point" of my post was to voice disagreement on multiple points you raised. Yes, it's a tacky metaphor for the cycle of abuse. No, it's interesting if you look deeper than that. Also, many people see many different things in Astarion, which in turn depends on how they view power.

If you really, *really* want me to disagree with the point of being unable to lecture him (remember, you asked!): I think even attempting to lecture literal evil is profoundly stupid and I'm glad my character is never scripted to look like a fool for it.

Astarion seems just vulnerable enough that some people think it would *work*, but really, you might as well try that on a mindflayer, Raphael, or the hag. Either kill him, let Gandrel hold him accountable, or be annoyed by his egocentric ways, that much is up to the player. It's a rather harsh choice. It's also the only realistic one. Evil people rarely become less evil when criticized, impulses and needs transcend logic.

Yet, if the person in question is sufficiently fuckable or meek, people think they can fix them. I've seen it with even Gortash, people don't recognise the threat. Not really.

You're taking things extremely literally and derailing them to points the story was clearly not trying to allude to. Astarion's story isn't about genocide, even if he can commit it. It's not about the very literal example of "a slave who attempted to commit mass genocide on their siblings". I mean, while you're at it, you might as well ask to name a real person that was the son of a patriar and had to make a dangerous almost self-immolating deal to stop a murderous cult.
Just as another example, even the way more grounded show Breaking Bad wasn't about the real life possibility and precedent of a cancer patient becoming an incredible murderous drug-lord and thus painting cancer patients in a bad light implying there is somehow a real life equivalent where they will kill people because of that experience, it was about hubris and the powerless seeking and unhealthily revelling in power. Tons of stories aren't *literally* about what's going onscreen. They're exaggerated or written in a specific way to get the point of the story or character across.

Bringing up horrible real historical figures is obtuse, and honestly, maybe a bit tasteless. Evidently, trauma or abuse isn't the reason they did all that, and it's dangerous to think that's what trauma does to a person, but it's well known that some abused people will cope in unhealthy ways that will harm others.

The rest of your points are again very literal, and I find the comparison to another real serial killer in poor taste, very unrelated to what I was saying, and ignoring my points about how it's not about that at all, but as someone who has personally gone through extensive familial abuse and trauma, I really need to emphasize that abused people can lash out and be really toxic. Not all, maybe not most, but this is well known and discussed, so please don't try to shut me down and say "back to reality", or say it's an excuse to get less jail time. I'm definitely not a criminal, but I know a metaphor when I see one, and I also know when I'm seeing traits I've displayed being portrayed onscreen. There is a reason Astarion's story has resonated with a lot of people, and I've also seen them talk about how it's made them reflect on how they were harming others.

While also sometimes a cliché in fiction that doesn't always apply to reality, a perhaps clearer example of what I'm talking about I have found to be true on ocassion is that a lot of middle-school bullies have horrible lives at home, and they're finding a way to feel powerful somewhere else. That kind of trope is actually closer to what Astarion's story/characterisation is about, rather than about genocide or genocidal tendencies, even if that's a possible element in his story.

You don't need to say they are Synonymous- words can have shared meaning....ergo a "synonymy" one of two or more words or expressions of the same language that have the same or nearly the same meaning in some or all senses. If you are going to say

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then is saying they have a similar meaning. Claiming the they are related is like saying they are expressing the same thing, as per the defination.

You can in fact remove A & B from the Alphabet...like when you make words or sentences lol. This is what I mean by just ignoring the points and not answering question.

B.) No you did not. Specific the scene in which he acts you to trust you ? You still aren't being specific and just seemly just making up whatever to excuse his behavior.
Trust you to let him assault you on meeting him or when you are sleeping ? Yeah that's not trust that's assault. I am sure their are other treads to knowtow to assualt but this isn't one.

D.) You still didn't address a single thing I said, or give an example. You can disagree and not have a reason why. Which why I ask why did you even bother to post if you don't care about having a genuine discussion about what I said.

You are correct, I did ASK about some SPECIFIC. Which you have yet to answer. As per the title "the game gaslights you about his behavior". You didn't address a single point I made still, your abuse & power metaphor isn't realistic.

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No " its not stupid its called ethics and plenty of people who enjoy critical thinking skills do it all the time. Not that the real world is perfect but the discussion of what is /is not evil is why their are laws on Murder SA , theft and the like.

Its a "choices matter game" if you want to blind do the evil choices their is an option for that. If you want to make good choices their is an option for that as well, except for question Astarion. I still remember the point *I* made even if you fail to address and dance around the issue.

people address "evil" all the time, You ever read a history book ?
what a cult documentary ?
Read A case study about serial killers ?
Their are dozens of example
Like I said if you don't care about the topic [which you don't] and lack any accountability towards abusive behavior because ~negative opinions about fav vampire~.

"If you don't care about this topic that's fine but you decided to post in the thread and just avoid any accountability or genuine discussion"

The act 2 scene where he lets you know about his issues with sex and lack of autonomy is a display of trust. Him listening to you about the ritual is also a display of trust. He does also pretty clearly say he trusts you in his act 3 romance scene.

I don't even disagree with the fact you can't call him out on his bullshit throughout the game. I think you're right about that, and we should get way more opportunities to bring up that he's a douchebag. But if you want a serious discussion, you're going to have to be a lot less hostile to anyone who disagrees with you, and throw less ad hominems at them. Like Silver already said, just because someone disagrees doesn't mean they're the #1 Astarion apologist and that they haven't read your post.

"Claiming they are related is like claiming they are saying the same thing?"

If the letter A and the alphabet are synonymous in your book, let me be more concise: AaaaaaaAaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaAaAaaAAAA.

I hope that clears up our issues.

[edited because some comments got cutt off]

Its MY POST lol, you are the one who is derailing the topic. Maybe You should have read the *first sentence* where I said I wanted to have a SERIOUS DISCUSSION* JFC what do you think that means ? Just because you guys don't want to talk about or cant handle criticism of this character doesn't change what Im going on about. My post IS about that. Can ya'll not read the title.

Actual if you remove the Devil part their are Prince, or the son's of nobles who made alliances with people who would be considered "evil" to protect their inheritance, their country Your ignorance of history doesn't change that.


Breaking Bad doesn't try to Gaslight the Audience into thinking his actions are ethical or reasonable. The story constantly has character question his actions from his Wife, brother in law, and even Jesse unlikes with BG3 Astarion [that the TOPIC of this post least you forget again] . I will refer once again to the title since you lack basic reading comprehension " [the] Game Gaslights on Astarion awful behavior. In Breaking Bad. Walter White is NARRATIVELY clear that he is a bad person. The police are after him. His family disowns him. He gets to the point where he kidnaps his own child who he no longer has full custody of [if memory serves] and stops and looks at how far he has gone.
In this game Astarion can just do whatever and their is little to no repercussions. The reward system of the game rewards you for his action, the Gur are not a threat and he just goes his merry way off into the sunset, or to the Underdark depending on what you choose.
Walter White , while doing one last good thing, Dies for his behavior.
Horrible example for you to even try to use. Fits my purpose well though.

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No darling you are simply ignorant and did not expect I know more then you at the topic. If you are going to claim the story is *realistic* then Im going to use realistic examples. What you guys think you can support atrocities and no one will question on that ?


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DUHHHH. What part of " I want to have a serious discussion" did you not understand ? Also you had no problem throwing around the claim that he is realistic to how abuser act but as soon as I have real live example and Case studies for you too look up l its in 'poor taste' lol, You are a hypocrite. These are well known stories, that most people should have at least heard of on. You are fine with using abuse as a fun buzzword until you have to face the truth

You are such a hypocrite lol. Don't talk about abuse if you can't handle real world example. Abuse is REAL and has REAL WORLD consequences and has History in the real world. Do //not//claim a character is realistic if you cant handle the real world truth of the matter.
The facts of how abuse happens is derived from * read world* case studies, stories and lived experience of real people. Not the weird vampire fetish that you are all 100% okay with using real terms to condone his behavior until you are faced with //reality//

I don't know how to tell you this, but again, in bold letters: IN D&D LORE, ALL VAMPIRES ARE EVIL AND LACK THE CAPACITY TO BE TRULY GOOD. ALL OF THEM.

Now, It's alright if you do not know this and are hence unable to recognise that Astarion, the Hag and Raphael are portrayed as evil because of their species. It's even fine to be critical of that framework -- some species being inherently wicked leaves a bad taste in people's mouths. However, you need to understand that is the narrative. Bg3 can be confusing because it shows flickers of goodness in even the Emperor, known illithid. However, make no mistake, this is the same game that says illithids have no soul and aren't even truly alive. Bg3 wants you to question if this framework is complete or true, but it never says it's outright false.

Okay, it's clear then you've come here to be very unserious and refuse to even try to comprehend counter-arguments. And, again, if you've read my post, you should be very aware you don't need to tell me abuse is real.
Have fun with your thread, I'm sure there will be tons of serious discussion had. Although I recommend relaxing a bit, this video game stuff is clearly getting to you.

🥱 Yeah we covered the evil part already, doesn't change that the game doesn't let you address his behavior unlike the other evil characters. But I see you have nothing but circumventing the point tell the bitter end.

I don't really care about D&D as a whole...I am just talking about how Astarion is portrayed in the game....but I guess if you had a rebuttal or wanted a genuine discussion would would keep trying to move the goal post to a completely different topic.

laughable coming from a person who cant comprehend that killing 7,000 people is in fact genocide and wants to ignore that point because "abuse", even thought that is a key part of his final story arch. If you want to be serious, ignoring mass murder isn't the best start Honey !. Says a lot that you think mass murder is inconsequential to his story lol. just WOW.
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quote[ You're taking things extremely literally and derailing them to points the story was clearly not trying to allude to. Astarion's story isn't about genocide, even if he can commit it]
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Here is the definition by the way.

gen·o·cide
/ˈjenəˌsīd/
noun
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

Ways you can call out Astarion, incomplete and abridged version:
- take vengeance for his bite attack by staking him on the spot
- give him to Gandrel
- forbid him from biting anyone else (starvation)
- tell him off for trying to bite you
- punch him for trying to bite you and/or having killed you
- criticise him for hiding his vampirism from you
- kill him after ascension. Companions will question this, example response to Minthy: "he's become a monster", M: "maybe a monster is what we need right now"
--> common factor: extreme responses
- break up with him. Be questioned by Astarion at length, get to criticise him and his behaviour FINALLY in multiple scenes (easy to find on YouTube).

Ways you cannot call out Astarion:
- tell him he's a psychopath in Act 1
- explain the concept of boundaries in Act 1
- denounce multiple offhanded remarks
- have a talk about being a victim of sexual violence and how it impacts his behaviour outside romance

Conclusion: most in game handling of Astarion comes down to extreme physical violence or starvation. Until late Act 2 to Act 3, you are not meant to have deeper conversations and shows of trust. High approval is especially important to get anything out of him, as are optional encounters. Most of Astarion's depth as a character is easy to miss on accident. Like most companions, you do not get to have some heart to heart moments without them trying to get into your pants (unfortunately). Most of the opportunity to renounce him without abandoning him is romance-gated. If you want to "teach" this terrible creature, a soft touch goes further than shouting. The game nonetheless only gives you easy to miss chances to work with him.

As for the option to just shout at him in Act 1, no doubt some players would find it very satisfying. As for my own view, I've already said it: if you can't handle him without frustration, don't recruit him. Just kill him. You are not obligated to put up with NPCs bullshit. You can walk away.

Ironically, the actual Astarion lovers would agree with you more than me since, it's become a popular point that the game either:
A) portrays you of overly tolerant of his behaviour unless you show a not so mild response (earning high disapproval -- there is no respectfully disagree until Act 3).
B) if he's romanced, this impression can get flipped and the game "aggressively portrays you as a victim" (I would say you *are* a victim, but that is how people feel).

Christ on a Cracker, Killing someone is not calling some out. Looks like We need to bring the dictionary out again
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/call-out

to criticize someone or ask them to explain their actions:
call someone out on something If he did anything wrong, I'd be the first to call him out on it. [end quote]

Again, do attempt to use some reading comprehension and use terms correctly. Unless derailment & being disingenuous is your point as i clocked a while~ ago.

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The option when you break up with him that I have seen are " its been wonderful but I just want it to end or This is just my decision its final". The Dark Urge 'break' you end up staying together because you just tell him you are scared of hurting him. You can only break up with Ascended Astarion and tell him " Because I have self respect or because he is like Cazador. You cannot break up with AA after the prologue is over. ~ [I paraphrase the exact quotes mind you]
Liar Liar ~!

Do you have an actual video title or channel in mind or are you just making up junk again because you don't want to *use words correctly* and ignore my point some more ? So my point stands tall with 0 rebuttals again.

You cant address his behavior, the game rewards his bad behavior he gets away with things none of the other characters can get away with [evil or good] as I listed in the OG post.

Killing him is only one of multiple options to respond to his behaviour, and a very valid one if I may add. There is no arguing with 99/100 bloodsuckers. Again, the smart choice is to kill Astarion, just as it would have been for Astarion to be a pathological liar -- the smart choice is not always the morally good one. There are hundreds of videos that show all of the scenes I mentioned. A good start would be to search "punch Astarion" in YouTube and watch further recommendations. It's incredibly easy to do and takes perhaps one minute of your time.

I know it is factually possible to call him out because I have done so. I have also watched multiple videos on his romance paths as well. Honestly, if you struggle with this, you only have your own dialogue choices to blame. This is someone you can literally tell that he's a monster. The breakup is not mild mannered. It only irks me that this is partially romance-gated.

edited for grammer:
Doesn't matter, my point is that the game doesn't let you question his behavior.
Also their is a difference between having a discussion about a topic and changing someone else opinion.
Lae' zel is a much softer towards the end of the game but her feelings towards Mind Flayers and her desire for violence when people stand in her way. She just has no issue talking...sometimes. You can talk to Minthara about how she supports slavery...it doesn't matter if she doesn't change you can talk about. You probably cant comprehend this because you ~never done it ~ but the point of discussing a topic is to learn someone else point of view. That becomes clear when you do not spend all your time trying to derail someone else option, ignore their points and basic meaning of words ^_^


Punching Astarion isn't calling him out Darling. Still can follow basic meaning of words even when someone gives you a link lol ? Its so sad you cant figure out the difference between using words and physical violent. A testament to your lack of reading compensation though. If it is so easy you should provide A source, Like I can easily do with psychological definition and the meaning of words. After all the "burden on proof" is on the one making the argument".

of course you have no argument outside of "abuser fetish derangement syndrome" or what ever this interesting phenomenon that happens when anyone dares criticize this character.

I have given you countless opportunities to inform yourself and where to look. You have provided 0 evidence for any of your claims and continue to argue contrary to well known information. There are no words. Yes, you can kill him. Yes, you can punch him. Yes, you can use your words. The game gives you literally every method to show your disapproval. The only problem is that it makes you wait for it, when Act 1 is longer than Act 2, just to start with. You also have to be reasonably intelligent when picking dialogue, and sometimes just lucky to have him in your party for optional content. Most people who struggle with Astarion fail on the last step.

"go on Youtube" isn't evidence'
"claiming he wants Trust in Act 1" and never sharing the specific scene for whatever you are talking about isn't evidence either.
Being to incompetent to look up what Call someone means VS actions of violence...shocking the abuer defenders thinks talking and violence are the same thing. Yikes yikes !

Pretending abuse and power are similar with no proof isn't a claim either.

"you have provided 0 evidence for any of your claims and continue to argue contrary to well known information"
what nice DARVO just like an abuser. I give they exact scene, and the ACT of each scene I listed in my core post. I even provided a link to the correct meaning of dictionary terminology. You gave nothing, outside of the DARVO of trying to just mimic what I'm saying.

Sorry , not sorry you cant gaslight me into ignore or condoning the action of abuser, child abuser and someone who wants to commit genocide like you want me to lol. Pro tip abuse apologist maybe at least pretend or make up a fact first instead of just saying junk that can be easily disproven.

Extreme laziness to continue living in denial. I think your actual problem with ascended Astarion is that you both are far too alike to get along.

I didn't just write about Ascened Astarion I wrote about Spawn Astarion too- again use some reading comprehension so that your come back can be moderately accurate.
I see we have hit the R stage of DARVO you forgot letter A, try again ?

Oh, I don't nearly dislike spawn Astarion enough to think he deserves that comparison. That would be an insult for the ages. If you want to continue talking, I suggest reflecting on the matter first. I'm not wasting more time on you.

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Oh I know- that's why you are okay with Spawn Astarion trying to convince you to commit genocide. Since it is the Spawn version that is the one pushing that idea in Act 3, and him pushing to kill the other abuse victims in Ac2 & 3 when he learns about the ritual from Raphael after killing the Orthon. See that is the example of a SPEFICIFC example and where it happens.

Stay mad that you cant groom someone to like your mass murder, child abusing, pro genocide fav Since the post was already about how the game doesn't let you address his behavior and rewards it despite you trying to derail from the abusive action.

Op, you could try to get your points across a bit more polite. People are trying to engage and make their points and you just talk down to them.

You can call out Astarion - not as much as you maybe wanted, but for example, as a gnome,you can call him out about his racism, which I found a nice touch.
You can also tell him, that you won't let him kill 7000 spawns and the Gur tribe.
You can downright ask him, why he is so bitchy all the time.
You can tell him that in no way, shape or form will you go along with his plan to control the Absolute.
And yes, if all that isn't enough, just don't recruit him, stake him or give him to Gandrel.

Astarion is one of the evil companions. He can mellow down a bit, but he will never become a good guy. Same as Minthara. If you don't like that, you have a lot of possibilities to get rid of him.

Astarion is written to be a "I can fix him" thirst trap. So he is always kept on an "adorable bad guy" level with the suggestion that you can change him.
Which is why you can never really call him out as that would push him too much into the unsympathic evil direction.

Yeah to me it has always seemed like this is the way anyone playing the game even remotely in a good way should handle Astarion. Just cut off his head. Or better yet, recruit him first then execute him for his crimes, which I personally believe is what is appropriate for most of the so-called companions in this game. It is unfortunate that I can't do this, though, to all those companions.

If you want a polite debate you don’t inter a discussion and start to derail the topic. You certain shouldn't compare him to an abuse victim then cry when someone else has real case studies of real abuse victims..
unless you think trauma and abuse are just fun buzzwords and troupes for a deranged fetish/fantasy 🤔
The top post in this thread is literal a long thirst forum just to talk about the character so its not like their isn't an outlet for Astarion fan's. Their are multiple in fact, however it seems impossible to have a serious debate about him.

quote [The Gnome thing is interesting- but that is race specific.

quote[ You can also tell him, that you won't let him kill 7000 spawns and the Gur tribe.
You can tell him that in no way, shape or form will you go along with his plan to control the Absolute.]

this isnt asking about his opinion, do I have to post the definition of the word 😒

Must I really post the definition for "talking/discussion/calling someone out vs Assaulting someone "
For a rating M game it is disturbing that ya'll don't seem to know the difference.

quote[You can downright ask him, why he is so bitchy all the time.] lol when ? Which Act/ after which battle/story arc can you this ? never ?
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You can in fact Kill Minthara, get lots of loot and that is clearly narratively the good choice.
If you give Astarion to the Gur in Act 1, with Grandal who is hanging out near Ethel all the Gur will die <-- So narrative the game punishes you for making a someone normal choice after hearing one of your companions abducted children. Id say getting an entire racial group of people murdered is pretty clearly a bad choice. The game will punish you for this choice. Maybe this is a glitch, as I don't have 100+ hours to do different play threw but I've heard if you kill him the game wont give you the staff after the Caz ardor battle, ever lets play i've seen he is still alive even if he isn't in the fight.

You can ask all other evil characters to explain their point of view, which I explained in greater detail but of course you all rather dance around the issue then address it.

The topic is interesting, but I'm a really bad conversationalist because my English is so terrible.


Astarion himself says in the dialogue (after you persuaded him not to complete the ritual): "But you saw something in me - someone else I could be. Someone who could break the cycle of power and terror that started centuries ago."

There is no word of "abuse" in this dialoge, or is there somewhere? For me the words "power" and "Terror" are more connected with domination and rulership - when you help him ascend, he is agreeing with you, when you are calling him a tyrant "one tyrant replaces another" – „Precisely. I’m not ashamed, dear. I won, we won.“ The english or american term "circle of abuse" is not mentioned in the game, as far as I know, but by some people due to their view or interpretations of the story.


I myself don't think his arc is about this „cycle of abuse“ in the term of the american meaning (child abuse), but yeah, some people believe this or interpret this this way.
As you said, the majority of people being enslaved or tortured by other people in real life are not having an antisocial personality disorder / sociopathy, ASPD arise through a specific combination of genetic factors in interaction with environmental conditions.
There are slaves who kill their former enslavers, but mostly because they could find no justice in the courts, so southing their own justice through murdering their enslaver were their only way out. Only a few people develop antisocial personality disorder as a result of abuse. But both genetic and environmental factors (e.g., childhood abuse) contribute to the development of antisocial personality disorder, though there is no hint or proof, as far as I know, that this is the case in this story with Astarion. Especially since his past shows a different picture.

I don't think the story/game itself really tries to justify his bad behavior with a trauma (I think players do!) although there have been changes for release. For example, his magistrate history was deleted, in which he was a dubious character even before becoming a vampire. Some people also complain about this. I agree the player character can't react appropriately to Astarion's evil actions and behaviour, or his actions seem not to be punished, which but is done, I think, on purpose. Astarion, for all his evil, should (in the eyes of the creators) remain a character, who can be liked by the players (said by his author, to have humanity so that he is not too one-sided and people like to take him in the party). So his evilness will not be questioned much ingame and swept under the table, so to say. This is the result of that. He's behaving mean and sarcastic to others, but he's most time allowed to be like that, the surrounding is not questioning it too much, a lot of his mean comments are rather meant to be funny, more or less. „Oh..You're not going to eviscerate him? I was hoping for a show.“ is commented by Lae’zel in an encouraging way with „Cool your blood, I’ll indulge you soon enough“.

This whole story is fantasy, it isn't realistic, also Astarion's personality is pure fantasy, it doesn't exist like this in real life. Astarion is, if you want to compare him to a real life person, more like a sociopath - having antisocial personality disorder with some score on psychopathy. He still has some kind of empathy (not much) and other complex feelings / behaviours like feeling guilt (not often), but scores on emotional uninvolvement, ruthlessness, superficial charm, and often has a lack of remorse or guilt. In any case, he tends to be narcissistic, sadistic, machiavellistic.

So: Is the game gaslighting on Astarion's awful behavior? Yes it does, a lot. And also players do it a lot. Everyone has their own opinion. Some people see a trauma as an excuse for his evil behaviour, some people deny, that Astarion is behaving evil (up until ascension), and some people are saying, a trauma could never be an excuse for this evil behaviour.

I think Astarion is not trusting you at all until act 3, he is even turning you into his spawn to have control over you. "I need someone I can trust, and now I know, they'll never betray me". He is not trusting you in act 2, in his confession scene, for me, it seems more like he himself feels awful and he tries to find out, how much of a fool you are, if you will still stand by his side, even after revealing, that he manipulated you. It’s all about him and his feelings. He is just selfpiting, and that’s also a sign of sociopathy (above average self-pity). He doesn’t ask you how you feel. Yep, you don't even have a chance to tell him, what an ass he is, that he manipulated you, I really missed that option. Even if you tell him „I care about you. Deeply.“, he answers „really?“, So he is not really able to trust people, especially up to this point.

But it’s just this. It is written that way, you cannot call him out on his bad character traits. There are even people, pretending, he wasn’t a bad character as a Spawn, it’s fascinating, but that’s how fictional villains work, when they are written for the audience to be liked. They are not written realistic, but charismatic and there need to be the slight hope, that the character/personality would/could change, would have a bit of empathy, would fall in love with someone and behave better.. something like that. Most popular fictional villains are written ambigious on purpose, something between humanity and sociopathy/psychopathy., otherwise people wouldn’t sympathize with them. Even in hannibal the serie, everyone adores the cannibal, he is utterly evil, but still, they managed it, that people are supporting the antagonist. There is this light empathy inside him toward the protagonist, or maybe it’s the hope, that the psychopath develops a conscience for another person, feel for another person, so the result is: Everyone loves him, because even if being a psychopath the serial killer is having a conscience and empathy, even if it’s little or just the hope of it and just toward one person.

I can't say for the other evil companions, have never played with Minthara. But I think Astarion and the story is just written this way to be liked by a lot of people. So like this:

What ? asking someone about their behavior is pushing them to much ? that's insane.


You can fix the other leaning evil characters though. so this doesn't make sense at all. You have a pretty deep & interesting conversation about Shadowheart and her goddess on the testaments of Shar. Same with Minthara & Lazel. A lot of the characters have the 'you can fix them' air about them. With the vampire its more like tolerate him or the game punishes you it. I

But yes, outside of being created for the vampire fetish that exist in the world, i know vampire romance is an entire genre. However this game is rating M and those stories tend to be for teenage girls...children. ?👀

Actually not, it depends on how the writer handle it. It can work out great. But they just decided not to go deep into the personality and behaviour of Astarion, in the meaning, it is not questioned much. I don't know, if it is done because he is a Vampire, as far as I know Stephen Rooney has made other stories without Vampires before BG3, which have a similiar style. About Welch, who wrote some of the romance scenes, I don't know. And why should Vampire stories tend to be for teenage girls or children? I think it depends on the Vampire / story of Vampires, not of "vampires" in general. There are stories for teenagers and there are stories for adults.

Well I appreciate your honesty.
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You are correct- he never says abuse. – I just double checked the ‘Day after beating Cazador speech. However the game describes abuse by the letter. Beating people, carving runes in their skin, keeping them locked in gates, starving them does in fact meet the criteria for abuse. Since the game doesn’t need to say the word abuse it clearly describes it.

[apa dictonary]
abuse
Updated on 04/19/2018
1. n. interactions in which one person behaves in a cruel, violent, demeaning, or invasive manner toward another person or an animal. The term most commonly implies physical mistreatment but also encompasses sexual and psychological (emotional) mistreatment.

Child abuse is not the only type of abuse. Even in English. There are many time of abuse. Verbal abuse, sexual abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse.


Fourth paragraph. I think its both. I never played the Early Access of the game so learning he was a Magistrate for real is interesting. I thought this was just a BS lie he gives the player.
Yeah, no one is stopping anyone from their vampire fetish and knowtowing to their favorite genocidal maniac. The Astarion fan's aren't oppressed because someone wants to talk about his bad behavior JFC. I am not talking about his meaning comments. Their is an entire mega thread just for his fanbase.
I am talking about
• the abducting children
• pretending he never did it/cant remember
• trying to convince the player to commit genocide
• trying to convince the player to kill a group of people he already ADMITED are being abused [the other spawn]
• assaulting the player twice [on meeting them and in your sleep]
this is what people mean when the point out the Astarion fans truly defend and ignore his behavior. The sassy comments he makes are inconsequential to the other horrible things he does.

5th paragraph “”
Thanks, captain obvious, no duh the story is fantasy. People have the right to discuss stories regardless of if they are fantasy or not. This entire thread is for the story & character discussion. Also if you all want to keep it in the fantasy I would suggest not representing things that exist in real life as slavery, abduction, mass murder, the class system etc etc they are all real.

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8th praagraph
A lot of people who commit large scales crimes are charismatic. It is perfectly realistic, however in the real world you can absolutely address their behavior if you live in a country where freedom of speech is protected. In fact on the genocidal leaders I named before where considered forceful and charismatic its now the rose to power.Having good social skills is how a lot of predators get victims from Bill Cosby to Harvey Weinstien. Look up 'Cults of personality"

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Oh I am aware of these disturbed sexual attraction to abusers its usual woman lusting after serial killers or abusive men. It has nothing to do, truly with the hope they will grow empathy IMHO. There is even a word for it. Its called Hybristophilia. A sexual paraphilia[ from the Apa dictionary]

hybristophilia
Updated on 04/19/2018
n. sexual interest in and attraction to those who commit crimes. In some cases, this may be directed toward people in prison for various types of criminal activities.


It is just social unacceptable to say. Since you mentioned Hannibal, from the Tv show yes it’s a thing. From the woman who think Chris Brown ‘did nothing wrong for assaulting Rihanna, or R.Kelly for Sex trafficking. Lots of Tv show characters as well. Because it this paraphilia doesn’t lead to direct crime it usual ignored but it’s still dangerous because of the social ramification and obfuscation of criminal actions. Like woman Rallying for the serial killer Ted Bundy because they are ‘in love’ with him.
Just because it exist doesn’t mean its acceptable.

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I am not talking about other stories I am talking about this one. Stay on topic.

I don't care if the Vampire stories should or should not be for teenager. The fact IS most of the most popular ones are.
From Vampire Dairies, Twilight, Buffy the Vampire. I am sure their are adult vampire romance stories but in America Vampire romances are dominated my media for teenagers. I know their are a lot of adult fan's but the target audience is almost always teenagers/ young adult.

@zayir Probably not on topic...but I found your thoughts on this very interesting to read. I appriciate you taking the time to put it on here.

Thank you I think this thread could be interesting, not only the topic, but also in a psycho-analysing way. Well, I am not allowed to psycho-analyse people or behaviour, so here I am out of course, and just have my own mind and observations.

From interacting with Astarion and from a recent interview with one of his writers, I got the impression that Astarion is not really written as a character to interact with but as a character to observe - if that makes sense. His player dialogue (the things your character says) is in the majority miserably short, doesn't allow a consistent characterisation of the PC (Example: Start of act 3, in the conversation before entering the act proper you can portray a variety of feelings concerning Cazador and the ritual including being on board with it. In the conversation that pops up when entering the act proper, you are always hesitant and slightly scared.) and in general only serves to showcase Astarion's opinion on matters as far as they are important to him. I do have a huge problem with that aspect of his writing, but I wouldn't say that I can't call him out on his behaviour - I think I can do this frequently. My problem is more that I am not allowed to have more complex thoughts and emotions in relation to his behaviour.

I don't often feel the need to call characters out, but I do like having proper conversations with them. You mentioned a scene with Gale in which you violate his privacy (I am not sure why you used quotation marks because what the PC does in this case, is very much rotten behaviour.) by using the tadpole to explore his mind. Afterwards, which is what makes me love this scene, you can feel bad about your behaviour and confess what you did to him, asking for his understanding among other things. If you succeed you garner more insights in his reasoning and values, while making your own felt. In it's most positive spin, it's not "calling Gale out for his shady behaviour" it's a lovely scene about trust and its limits.

Karlach who you so conveniently excluded, otoh, is the character I am frustrated with because - among other things - I cannot call her out on her bullshit. Both the conversations about how ok it is to use soulcoins and about how complicit she was in Gortash's business deals are nipped in the bud. So annoying.

I'll also inadequately give my two cents. I personally have a problem with the title alone (and don't feel the need to go further). I do not feel gaslighted by the game where Astarion's awful behavior is concerned. To me, it's quite obvious. That I am unable to address it, for technical reasons imposed by the medium, or because of more or less valid choices in the writing of it all, is another thing entirely (and at least not gaslighting in regard to his awfulness).

I agree. Astarion can be utterly evil here.


Well of course we have the right to discuss the story regardless of them being fantasy or not. But it's not possible to create a fantasy world without real life connection. Not even, if someone is insane, 'cause it would just mirror his insanity. So every story, if it's a game, a movie, a book, will represent things that exist in real life. Do you disagree with that? So as soon as you log in, the game is representing things that exists in real life: language, for example. So well, I will not further comment on this.

------

Well yes, I agree. But you are misunderstanding a thing. One thing is real life, and one thing is fiction. So this:



I was talking about a fictional serie, not about real life. There is a huge difference between people, who like fictional villains and people, who like real life villains. Huge. You should not and never mistake them. Also in this serie, the creators gave the serial killer a slight of empathy. I was not talking about people would think serial killers can have empathy, but the fictional character IN the serie.


Well the serie I mentioned is liked by women as well as by men. But you are mistaking liking fictional characters/stories with real life persons. Again, that's a difference, a huge, huge difference, which you don't seem to understand.

Why there are people who fall in love with real life serial killers or psychopaths / people with ASPD is beyond my imagination (well yeah, of course you can analyze it, it's just a speaking), though, but it has not much to do with a fictional character like "Astarion".

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quote "I do have a huge problem with that aspect of his writing, but I wouldn't say that I can't call him out on his behavior - I think I can do this frequently."
----

Well like all the other people that keep claiming this, give an example and hopefully you wont conflict assaulting someone to talking about it like the others...

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quote In it's most positive spin, it's not just "calling Gale out for his shady behaviour" it's a lovely scene about trust and its limits.
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Consider he has a bomb in his chest that can kill everyone and he wants you to give up your magical items you can in fact question him on it. If you just want to blind trust him you can .Most people care about knowing things that can potential kill them lol. Its called self preservation. Their are so many meme's and jokes about him taking people's loot because this is such a common behavior of players to be upset about loosing items it a bit obscured to pretend you don't get why.


It is defiantly the 'wrong" behavior to probe Gale's mind . Its called an EXAMPLE of how the game lets you read the thoughts of almost everyone example one if you actual want to address the point and not do another 'move the goal post' strawman. Outside of the force mind probe- every character with a secret or who has a another NPC related to their character the tadpole will immediately sink with the companion and the player so they are up to date. For example) information about anything Gith related or finding the slates the game makes sure Lae zel immediately knows. This is one of many ways that the game just treats the Vampire like he is different. you HAVE to bring him to the Flophouse [if you want information on the ritual] or the vampires just come to you. The game just forces you to interact directly with the key points of his story in Act 3.


The only options for the Vampire in Act 3
[hard agree to the ritual]
[hard no one what he is asking]
or treat him like a child and keep asking about his feelings...I dont recall the exact scene/dialogue combination] but the answers that aren't hard no/yes
you can ask if he "feels safe meeting his family"/"tell him you just want him to be happy"
when he try's to tricks the Spawn in Act 3, when the come for him at night you can gaslight them with Astarion you can ask him about if afterwards.

If you don't want to question why someone is trying to convince you to get commit a random act of murder, You do you boo boo but the game says "choices matter" and you defiantly have that choice to question or learn more about everyone thoughts if you are interested.


Yeah I didn't exclude Karlach because she doesn't hide anything from you . Her story isn't that complex and she is just genuine a nice person. You going to provide some proof that she is trying to convince the player to do commit heinous acts of violence or are you just being belligerent? Kalach said she was a child[or more accurately a teenager] when she was a Guard for Gortash. Its pretty normal not not blame children for being groomed for adults unless you think that sort of thing is okay. 🤔

I assume she didn’t know he was experimenting on people with magic altered tadpols because she was in hell. Seems pretty straight forward…did I miss something ?

Astarion does quite a bit explaining after you took him to that drow vendor in Moonrise and let him decide.

He also can be be pretty apologetic and shocked about the Gur children. And depending on what answer you choose, he will apologise to them.
But as I and many others here said, if you want him to fully explain himself, you are out of luck.
You can kill him on the beach or during the bite scene, if you really want without repercussion.

OP is the sort of person who admits to not understanding the difference between synonym and a relation (I assume they have nightmares about group theory), but the reveal of not blaming Karlach for anything Astarion did during his youth... Is hilarious. They were both grooming victims, respectively considered children by their culture when getting involved with the underworld. Astarion may even be mentally arrested at teenagehood because of his vampirism. That would turn another light on his highly selfish tendencies. That's not an age group with a fully developed prefrontal cortex. Though, I'm not sure the game means to imply this last part. It's very insistent that it comes from his personal philosophy. It's just another layer next to the questionable presence of innate alignment, capable of distorting thinking processes.

Well first of all this is what you said


which is why I said

So responding to this


.
Lots of people enjoy the critical thinking skills of felids of Study called " Media studies" because media effects the world. That's why people can study 'Media Literacy' to see if what is being portrayed is accurate wither it's the news or something represented in fantasy. It is fully irrelevant if it the story is fake or not all media has an effect on the world, the culture. That's why people make money criticizing media, that's why their are popular websites like Rotten Tomato or Youtube commentary channels.


You claimed yourself that you like to "psycho-analyze a character" that would involve real world thinking.


Pick a struggle mate.

-------*

It isn't that difference because all the people I listed are preforms, they show the audience and 'fake unrealistic representation' that is different from their true selves. Plenty of artist who just shared the "fantasy" in their songs of doing illegal things turns out they actual did them, themselves. People care more about the stage character and how much they like them then the crimes the commit or the evidence. Same for anyone what writes a book and later is found to have committed crime . The sort of media you like does indeed say a lot about you. Their are reason why certain forms of media are illegal or censored because its well known to have a negative effect. The most obvious is CP draw or not is illegal for this reason its illegal in most countries and violates Obscenity and child protection laws. The ESRB for video games, The comics Book authority and plenty of other media regulation exist for this reason. You can just say and portray whatever you want with out criticism, scrutiny, loosing money or in some case a criminal case.

Yeah the Drow scene doesn't explain his penchant for genocide, wanting his siblings who were also abused to die, the fact that he try's to assault you twice. 0 accountability answers. He also spends the entire game complaining and stating he wont do XYZ, so him mentioning that this is the first time [?] ill have to recheck the dialogue, having freedom of choice in a while when he has had //nothing// but that when he is traveling with you, shows lacking in continuity to say the least. Also no one in 'uses his body' he is not are captive prostituted & he is also the one that hits on the Avatar. I understand that we are getting more of his backstory but it doesnt really expalin his thinking.


Alright the bit about the Gur children is just a straight up lie.
He isn't sad about them at all. He tells you he doesn't remember doing it at all, then says it was Cazador who controlled him and made him do it. and its VERY weird how he says he doesn't remember but then says he didn't trick them with 'sweet nothings ?' [or something like that]
Very Prince Andrew " I never met that girl, and If I did I didn't do anything"..... yo wHAT ?

If you play Origin Astarion, or take control of his character you can //force him// to be sorry to the children.but the way the character is written indecently he is not like that at all. If he goes to the Gur on his own he will offer to help them if the Avatar isn't their, but he doesn't apologies.

yeah that's why i'm criticizing the game, that's how criticism works. Its based of your thoughts after you fully read/watched/ the media lol.

You clearly didn't pay enough attention and I don't appreciate to be called a liar, op.
I played the game a lot of times and had him apologize to the Gur. Not directly, he doesn't do anything directly, but he swore to take revenge.
You clearly want to hate on that character and that is ok. Not everyone has to like every character, I could tell you a lot of what I don't like about Halsin, but you also just look for the fault in the answers people give you. You have not w answers from people critical of Astarion like Silver and me and if fans like Kira. Take it or leave it, but don't get personal.

😂 😂 😂
Not getting enough attention ~Darling~ ?.

I mean not only can you not prove your point,
know the difference between talking & and an act of violence against someone
provide proof for your statement
you cant even stick to your own mediocre values
.

I don't follow anime P3Do logic where a character who is a 100+ years old is secretly a child. Astarion is a grown men & Kalach was a teenager by normal non anime creeps standards when they first ended up with their abuser. Thoughts its super telling you do, on top of your obsession with defending your "problematic fav".

Also that's not grooming works. Here is another link to an actual fact you failed to know.

RAINN
https://rainn.org/news/grooming-know-warning-signs

Astarion doesn't fit the criteria .[All grooming isn't sexual but most free resources cover sexual grooming so that's why I'm using. He defiantly fits "some" of the but their are two criteria the
"Trust development and keeping secrets/
Attempt by abusers to make their behavior seem natural"
and a maybe for the "Desensitization to touch and discussion of sexual topics<-- Cazardor seems to have gone straight to physical violence not sexual/

That doesn't excuse that advocation of genocide like you want it too, though !

Let’s take the heat down, and as people have said let’s not have any personal attacks and try to keep it constructive and respect that we’ll have different opinions and that’s okay.

lol you just admitted to lying.
-

More proof OP does not know half of Astarion's scenes or lore. He was not an adult when he "ended up with Cazador". Just leaving hints here for people who do not know what they're dealing with: this person does not know half the scenes, refuses to look at them, and does not intellectually distinguish concepts like synonym, group, and relation.

This is not an insult towards OP, but this thread has to be summarised by now.

Might be in some cases. But is this the majority? Is the majority of people, writing a book about crimes, commiting or wishing to commit crimes? Media (fiction), consumed by adults, doesn't have a negative effect on them per se. This can of course occur to certain people, a few, who have a genetic predisposition to it. Ted Bundy was claiming violent porn was the reason for his crimes, do you believe him? Do you think media had a negative effect on him? Do you think, without consuming violent porn, he wouldn't have murdered?
Violent porn for example, is a case, which may tell things about you, sure, but also this, it doesn't mean you're going to commit crimes or wish this to be real. It also may depend on things like if the person consumes real violent porn (watching real crimes/r*pes) or fictional violent porn, and in fictional violent porn there are also a lot of shades and tastes. It's not just black and white. It's not possible to lump together people who consume media or artists, who create art, with criminals.

Well, to come back to the topic: Astarion cannot be compared to real life persons, he does feel empathy and guilt, and players do like this about him. If he wouldn't have the humanity-side in him, the majority of people wouldn't like him. He is a fictional character with unrealistic combined personality traits (good and bad ones). It's just impossible to compare him with a real life person or a real life personality, and so it is impossible to say people, liking this fictional character, would like or how you called it "lusting after" real life serial killers or tolerating crimes. Or something like that, if this is, what you're trying to say.

I think Larian wanted to create a funny and enjoyable fictional villain / evil companion (with good and bad traits) and they did quite good with him due to his popularity. I agree with you, that Astarion is quite evil in some of his actions and it's not possible to call him out so much. But that's what seems to be intended. Not every taste can be met.

Temporarily locking this thread as the OP has failed to adhere to moderation warnings. I will give them the benefit of the doubt that they hadn’t seen them, hence locking this thread for a few hours to allow them to catch up.

Pretty much my take as well. When I’m doing a good play through my character always kills the hostile Astarion when encountered. If I’m playing neutral he gets killed if he puts the knife to my throat otherwise I reject him as a companion and we go our separate ways. If I’m morally compromised and take him I’m really not of a mind to call him out as I’m likely of a similar mind.

I certainly don’t agree with the term gaslighting which implies Larian deliberately created the so-called lack of calling out opportunities. Thats just down to writing imitations/oversight in my book.

Yeah, the title is overly dramatic and the discussions with OP a train wreck. The person is now on my ignore list. I use Astarion on a good playthrough too. If I can deal with a githyanki and a Sharran, I can take the spawn along too, but if you don't want to, you can get rid of him in many ways and you can call him out on many occasions.

Astarion is the sort of individual where, if you truly want to put an end to his shenanigans, he either needs 24/7 forever supervision or a stake through the heart. There is no third path. He's not someone we can fix. In many a person's story, he was the villain. The evil characters all have this in common.

Additionally, his way of "apology" isn't words, but actions. Astarion is someone who has been made to lie a lot for Cazador. You know he's sorry when he actually changes his behaviour. That's not a comprehensible communication style to people who can't read between the lines, but certainly a trait that for once very highly is to blame on trauma.

I'd just like to add a thing on this specific topic, in general, not to a specific person!
Childhood abuse can be a factor that increases the likelihood of developing personality disorders (among other things) or antisocial behaviour. Also the so-called Cluster B Personality disorders (narcissistic, borderline and antisocial personality disorders) are more likely to develop after severe traumatic childhood experiences. Child abuse cannot excuse acts of violence or hurting, abusing or at worst killing other people, but it can often explain it. An explanation can be very important for helping with prevention.
If there are people who resonate with Astarion's behaviour (antisocial personality disorder, narcissistic disorder, antisocial behaviour) or story, reflecting how they were or are harming or abusing other people, being toxic or narcissistic, antisocial, but really want to change their behaviour or don't want to abuse others like they may have been abused in their childhood by others, I can only suggest them to try to find a good psychotherapist, who is well educated on this specific topic, and to understand and learn, how to reduce abusing and harming other and innocent people and how to not focuse on themselves (especially when having narcissistic disorder or having a high score on it). Personality disorders are difficult to treat and it's also difficult to unlearn antisocial behaviours (harming other people) occuring from abuse, which is why it is important to find an experienced and unbiased psychotherapist who can empathize with the sufferer's self-image, sensitive areas and usual coping strategies. It is really important to learn how to not abuse and harm other people or children.

Astarion and Minthara is the perfect partners in crime for a evil playthrough. I never felt the need to call them out. Maybe I did in my first goodish playthrough, I can't remember.
I can imagine Astarion being a bit annoying if you are strictly playing a good Tav, much as Karlach is a bit annoying on a evil one. As for gaslighting, never felt that.
Astarion is evil and that's why many players love his character. Zayir has some interesting psychoanalysis on why. I agree it is very important to separate fantasy from reality. It's a huge difference between enjoying horror and wanting it to be real.
I like horror in fanatsy, but the news? Nope, I can't watch it at all lately with all the horrors of war on.

I have anxiety and love horror. It's a good way to deal with it. That's why act 2 is my favourite part of the game, you are basically in Lovecrafts wet dream. And yes, it is good and healthy to separate fantasy and reality, but stories can help people to deal with quite a bit.
That said, I prefer to play good in BG3,since I just like too many NPCs. But imo, if you want, you can call Astarion out quite a lot. He will not always acknowledge it or react like a toddler, but he is changing. His conversations are more friendly and he starts approving, if you help people, has different banter and is generally more open minded. He is an evil character, but he can go one way or the other, depending on what he takes from the group. If I'd ever do an evil playthrough ( maybe after patch 7), I would use Astarion for that for sure.
Astarion certainly starts out annoying in a good playthrough and I honestly have a hard time letting him into the group after he tries to kill my character at the beach and it takes quite a lot of metagaming not doing it, but since I normally get the bite scene always very early in the game, he starts telling about his life as Cazadors slave very early and it is easy to feel sympathy, if you have a bit of empathy. So I always make the 'We watch each others back" deal with him.

Tbh, I was afraid, he would turn out to be a catering to the Twilight crowd and as annoying as most of the modern day vampire tropes, but luckily, he didn't go down that route.

Personally, I really enjoyed Astarion’s story arc when playing a chaotic good character willing to support him, so I would strongly recommend not ruling out bringing him along in a good party. Popping a brief précis in spoilers below, both because it is a spoiler and also a bit off topic:


But while, given the choices and rolls in my good playthroughs, Astarion didn’t do anything particularly heinous, I know he can be dodgy. And while I don’t recall feeling that there were important missing opportunities to challenge Astarion specifically, I’m sure there are gaps in particular scenarios, as I’ve come across a number of instances across the game in general where I’ve not been happy with the available options for dialogue or action. Some of those probably do reflect the writers’ preconceptions of what the player might be thinking at that point, but I’ve never actually felt gaslit or as though the game wasn’t allowing me to make up my own mind about what I was seeing. And given the size and complexity of the game, I’m generally willing to headcanon a suitable response where the game doesn’t give me one, though I’ve tended to report as a bug/feedback when there’s been absolutely no way in the game to reflect a reaction that I’ve felt was significant to how the story plays out.

For me he doesn't fit my evil playstyle as I prefer playing the scheming deceptive evil rather than cackling megalomaniac. I felt like my PC would constantly have to try keeping him from playing our hand: "Astarion, shush! We are not going to pick a fight with this community out in the open where we are outnumbered 50 to 1. Let's play nice and earn their trust and then backstab them when we have the odds on our side." And then Astarion just rolls his eyes and moans about how dreadfully boring we are. Like fine, I'll keep you in camp when we talk to people then and I'll let you know when the spilling of blood is about to begin.

For my canon playthrough where I had no metaknowledge beyond parts of act 1 that I had seen in early access and I played my character to react to things making the most logical choices that fit their personality and what they knew, I sent Astarion away after he tried to bite me. My logical reasoning for this was that I already knew him to be dishonest, so there was too much risk trusting that this time he would stay true to his word.

Trusting him turns out to be a very beneficial decision in the end, but it is objectively a terrible decision at that pont in the game when looking at all the facts you have in front of you.

I also didn't necessarily feel the need to talk to Astarion about his psychopathic score or discuss it with him haha. Joke aside, there are a few moments where you can call him out a bit, as others mentioned before, e.g. whether he envies Cazador (which indirectly implies whether he would also like to have that power or is as ruthless as him), and especially up until act 3 he usually reacts in accordance with his character (like Narcissism, Machiavellianism, and only sometimes with a bit empathy) or in this case, agrees. Or after ascension when he is told that one tyrant replaces another, when he honestly admits it. (Which I do really like! It shows he is very self-confident and don't feel the urge to lie or to hide. Or he doesn't even take it as a critical comment). If he could have been called out on other occasions, he would have responded in the same way, I would assume.
Apart from the spawn route, which I don't like for certain reasons, I think Astarion's reactions are mostly pretty brilliantly made and, thank God, he doesn't lose his narcissistic traits in the ascending route.


No, for me, not at all, but I have my own taste. The only thing, which sometimes was a bit annoying, when playing a good Tav, is, when he disapproves on your good choices. But he never said annoying things, on the contrary, he showed a great interest in my naive and shy Tav (even without much approval) and so he seduced him really early in the game, and before the party. I loved that. It was well done by Larian.


I think this word from the op is a strong one and probably has a negative connotation, I think what we see in the game is a stylistic device in making an evil character interesting and loveable. Like, the game or story doesn't focus or calls out so much on Astarion's evil behaviours, and it's surely not made in a negative, but in a positive way or thought: To create an evil character, which can be liked and romanced by players. Also in movies and other fiction, when the intention is to create a villain, people but should sympathize with them or should find them very interesting (sooner or later), they for example would probably not focus on the suffering of the victims. Because if the focus would be too much on the victims and you would feel empathy with them, you would not sympathize with the villain and start to disgust him, at least, the majority. But using this stylistic device doesn't mean, that people, who indeed like the villain, would not recognize this, most people know and understand, what's right and wrong.

Like you, I always try to make the choices that best fit my PCs’ characters and what they know. Whether those choices are logical or not will depend on the character I can see why many good characters would send Astarion away or even kill him after the bite scene, but I’ve now done two chaotic good playthroughs (despite trying to mix it up and play different characters, it is my happy place) and in both Astarion stayed with the party but for different reasons. In my first, my PC wouldn’t kill him once he’d backed off and was willing to extend the benefit of the doubt that he’d not killed before, but sending him off to potentially prey on innocents seemed irresponsible so she thought she’d better keep him where she could keep an eye on him. My second chaotic good PC was an erratic risk taker with a heart of gold, so would always be happy to give folk a second, third and even fourth chance, and was also fascinated by everything and had never met a vampire spawn before so it was an excellent opportunity for new experiences and knowledge (this was my cleric of Oghma/ jack-of-all-trades playthrough).

My PC's decision wasn't as much based in good or evil morality. She was more of a pragmatist acting in self-interest. What she had learned about Astarion at that point is that he was dishonest and he seemed like someone who could jump ship at a moment's notice. So he was too much of a liability and it was the best chance she would have to dismiss him before he could manipulate the other companions to take his side (which she was intending to do herself and she did not want competition).

@Zayir

CW: Discussion of abuse, trauma and its possible repercussions, especifically talking about real cases.
This has been edited to exclude more sensitive sections that were improper to discuss on a videogame forum (my bad!), so it might be a bit less coherent, but hopefully my points still stand solidly enough.

Reading your last reply to me, I find it very hard to make out what you are actually going on about, especially since a few points are simply untrue.

All the three characters who harbour secrets (Astarion, Gale and Shadowheart) are roughly treated the same in the way their secrets are presented. Gale is the odd one out because his secret is a true secret for both the PC and the player, so his reveal happens much more naturally. In Astarion and Shadowheart's cases, it is obvious to the player what they are, while the reveal to the PC is staged through a couple of events - in Astarion's case, him sneaking off, you finding the boar and eventually bite-night. It is not true that you cannot mind-link with Astarion, which you seem to imply. The PC can do this twice, once when the tadpole connects you during your initial meeting and a second time during bite-night when you can check his claim that he is usually feeding from animals. This second instance is functionally the same as what you do with Gale, invading his privacy to fish for informations.

People have given you several examples for when you can challenge Astarion's believes too. You even brought up your own because I thought the scene when his siblings visit the camp give me ample opportunity to act against his wishes and call him out for being uncaring towards the other spawn. To add another example, if you do go down the "you think power lets you do anything" route in the bear-dinner scene, you can do nothing but challenge his believes. There is no option to agree with him.

I think the only scene in which I truly feel like I am missing the opportunity to challenge him (besides what I already mentioned) is the scene after defending him from Araj on the romanced route. Here he happily tells you that he exploited you and mocks you for it, right after thanking you for not doing the same to him and - unless you want to break-up with him - you can only continue by telling him that you care about him. But I have ranted about this at length in other threads, so I'll leave it at this.

As for Karlach, she was a bodyguard to a rising arms-dealer and crime lord, yet she plays the "I thought everything was about board" card, which means she is either somewhat stupid or deliberately looked the other way while knowing full and well what was going on. So it bugs me a lot that I cannot challenge this story of performative innocence, since I frankly don't buy it.

Stories is a good way to deal with it, I heartily agree.


I think I do see what you mean,





I was mainly thinking of the constant disapproval. Everyone is so different, I would not want to downplay anyones choices in game. I can totally see the allure with having a good Tav falling for Astarion who "corrupts" them. Honestly it was kind of my first playthrough! Although my Tav lost much of their shy, naive nature by Act 3, hehe.


You say it very well. I agree if the focus was more on the victims without knowing him too much his part in the story would be very different. I still don't feel "gaslit" because the story makes it very clear he is evil or at least someone you should watch out for. It's why I found him so interesting on my first playthrough. "Why is he so shady? What is he hiding?"

Ascended route has you killing 7000 people and a whole tribe of Gur.SInce I don't fancy playing evil, this is not what I like to do. Plus I actually like the Gur, especially Gandrel and Uma. I also would never accept Bhaal, since that is accepting slavery again. I think, spawn Astarion can go at least to the chaotic neutral category, ascended more neutral to chaotic evil. I'm not discussing what the better route is, since there are enough threads about this topic, this was just to point out, that unlike Minthara, Astarion and Lae'zel, the other evil companions, can have drastic changes based on how their stories unfold.

Somewhat unrelated, but

If you talked to the Gur kids and Sebastian, you can find out, that the Gur actually take care of their kids again and Sebastian writes you a letter, that the spawns are doing fine in the Underark. He and Astarions brotehrs and sisters are helping them stay on path.

Just highlighting a recent addition to forum rules: “While we are aware that sometimes users might want to have these discussions in reference to the games, please try to keep conversations about heavier topics (abuse, sexual assault, etc) within spoilered text with an appropriate warning, so other users can choose if they want to engage.”

Could I ask folk to bear that in mind here, and that this is intended to be a fun, open forum about video games so maybe don’t go *too* heavy or controversial even in spoiler tags?

Cheers!

You're right, my bad. I'll remove the segments of my comment that tackle the heavier topics, and spoil the rest since it's pretty overwhelmingly about that. Thanks for the reminder!

My issue is more of how long that lasts and how further writers may treat the issue. They have

From the way it is described in the letters by the Gur and Sebastian, as well as in the two versions of Under Dark Epilogue that I know of, they are mostly busy trying to survive and create a somewhat comfortable life out for themselves. It is stated that some of the spawn didn't survive and others didn't choose to stay with the community.

I don't think it's an odd take at all. Vampires

Hey, the churches of Lathander and Kelemvor can always do with some more stuff to do.

But, on a more serious note. The number is just something Larian's writers pulled out of their butts that sounded imposing and dramatic. They obviously did not consider the sheer logistics behind such a population of vampire spawns. Even before releasing them, the entire premise of Cazador housing such a population in his dungeons is implausible. On top of the sheer size of that dungeon (especially if the cells where we see Sebastian are to be considered the standard), he would need a massive workforce of slaves and servants to maintain it and a constant traffic of supplies going to and from the palace.

So you need to use suspension of belief to accept that this spawn population exists in the first place, so what happens to them afterwards is simply a matter of applying more of that suspension of belief.

Totally agree. And the ones,w e've met, seemed to be pretty nice, maybe apart from the one guy with the longer hair, but he could just deal with everything happened to him the way, Astarion did in the beginning.

It's really one of those magic number games like Astarion's gravestone, where I can only wonder what the writers actually meant to imply. The state of their lodgings in the undercity, I generally blame on the whole structure belonging in the upper city and so being possibly largely unfinished.

Meh it’s 7k predatory evil undead abominations.

May they burn in the 9 hells.

Astarion himself doesn't do anything wrong in the game, he may approve of some of Tav's evil actions or disapprove of good ones. Basically, all companions do not independently do anything contrary to Tav's decisions. And if we talk about the lines, then, for example, the story of "good" Jaheira about how she chained the spawn to the sidewalk and made them wait for the dawn, that is, not killed them for safety, but exactly that she made the living creature suffer, realize the approach of death and helplessness, realize that they will be executed, realize it all night long, and then - die a painful and cruel death, causes much more disgust to her character than all the "evil" lines of the evil companions. That said, Ascended Astarion disapproves if I turn Jaheira over to Sarevok, although it's a very logical action from an evil character's point of view and could be done for Astarion's own safety, since Jaheira hates him and promises to become an "annoying neighbor" in the future, and it would be wise to eliminate her in advance as a preventative measure. But Astarion is against this, there is no rational explanation for his reaction, except that he is not as evil in deed as he says he is periodically in words.

I personally was severely lacking at many points in the game in terms of opportunities for good, loving and supportive interactions with Astarion, options to challenge and harm him abound in the game. I don't need these options, and don't do so in any walkthrough, but they come across regularly, and I've watched videos of these options, and I believe the authors have given every opportunity for such roleplay. And, of course, there is no "gaslighting" in BG3, as OP wrote about, the main plot of Astarion is written perfectly, this character can be perfectly understood and felt, there are serious missed opportunities and problems specifically in romance, but about this has already been written many times in other threads. And so, this companion, in my opinion, perfectly combines with both evil and good style of passage.


I agree, so many of his reactions are brilliantly made, I can't help but admire him, and enjoy it every time. His narcissistic traits suit him very well, but at the same time he doesn't think only of himself, his attention is on Tav, he's flaunting himself in front of Tav, that's how I perceive his behavior in romance.


Yeah, I really liked the way it was done too. In the first blind playthrough I was worried about his disapproval, I was thinking not even about romance, but about how to be with him, so that the relationship would not be spoiled too much (I was afraid that he would betray or leave, in BG2 evil companions could easily do something like that), and not to do evil deeds for the sake of Astarion and his approvals, I was waiting for some personal quest to raise his approval at the expense of it. The bite scene was a revelation, I understood everything after that, my perception of the character took on a whole new color. And the sudden, just amazingly sudden invitation for a date - this has never happened in any game before! I just helped him with Gandrel, and decided to protect and defend him, not expecting any romance, thinking that maybe it won't work out, maybe I'm "not evil enough" for him, maybe I'll be without a pair in this walkthrough, and then I'll decide whether to be evil or not. This early seduction scene creates a nice wow effect, it's well done, not to mention the date scene itself, and when you see his scars, and how he meets the dawn the next morning. The 1st act with Astarion is great.




I also like the option of a good Tav to whom Astarion opens her eyes to a dangerous and cruel world. My Tav goes from a fun-loving and reckless girl who was too light-hearted at first, to gradually understanding and realizing what this world is all about, through Astarion's fate and how hostile this world can be. She becomes smarter, more rational and realizes the importance of power. She will never allow this world to harm Astarion again, and transforms from a lighthearted chaotic-good character into a calculating neutral-evil, something of a dark knight and advisor to the Lord. Given that Astarion doesn't like to plan, hehe, she'll try to complement him. Two darlings - one head, I've come across that expression in English, and the vampire bride option fits perfectly with that.

I don't think it's completely unfair to compare the game to reality, because writers /do/ grab from something, but I do think it's unfair to think they're doing a 1:1 comparison, or think that fiction is so literal that if you like a morally questionable character (say, someone like Jaime Lannister) you, and perhaps their writers if they're eventually written in a better light, condone all of their actions as if they had happened IRL.

CW: More talk about the lived experience of going through trauma, and the repercussions it has

I believe the writers intentionally used language that evokes a specific type of trauma. Many forms of media address trauma, and different phrasings can evoke various emotions and memories. While I do not think Astarion's portrayal perfectly represents trauma, his dialogue was purposefully written in a specific manner.

CW: Discussion of abuse, trauma and its possible repercussions, especifically talking about real cases.


Yes, I see it the same, as I commented on the OP, Astarion's story and personality is very much fiction (in all paths) and cannot be 1:1 into reallife, though different things are of course related to real life.
But even if a story is meant to be 1:1 taken from real life (like taken from history, a personal story, etc.) it still will be fiction for the audience, because the audience, or in this case, the player, is right now sitting in front of their screen, it is not their real life story, they are sitting in a safe place, when they press key A or B, it is happening on the screen with pixels. At the end, it doesn’t matter in this case, how much a game looks realistic, it is and will be still fiction and unless you know a person and know, why he is doing a specific action or enjoying something, it’s not possible to say, players would enjoy the things, they are doing in a game (like killing or shooting characters, which is a very common gameplay), in their real life too. Like some people may do and some people don't.

Ah, haha, well. Astarion disapproves – reload, put him some metres side, Astarion disapproves – reaload, put him some metres aside. Something like that. But in the goblin camp, I could get some approval for some mysterious reasons. And there are also a lot of personal things in the camp, where it's possible to get approval from him. And yes of course, my Tav trusted Astarion and so also may did some questionable things or allowed Astarion to do so lateron.

That's a good statement, I agree with you. I might add that negative characters are simply often more interesting to the reader/viewer/player if they are well written. They can have an interesting and tragic story, they attract with their uniqueness and stand out from the more standard and already quite familiar and formulaic positive characters (especially for the sophisticated viewer/player). I was heavily into fantasy books as a teenager, but then I abandoned it, leaving only games and DnD, just because of the boring banal good/evil stamps, and only George Martin was able to resurrect and rekindle this love for the genre, as he moved away from the stamps and showed the characters alive and realistic. I like Jaime Lannister's image too. But the image of Joffrey Baratheon managed to make so repulsive that no one liked him, at the same time, I was once struck by the disgusting behavior of people who condemned the real actor, who very talented and simply great played this image. To confuse the actor and the image he played, just like condemning fans of a negative character, in my opinion, is a sign of limited thinking. Although the former is perhaps even worse.



P.S. Maybe we should change the name of this discussion thread? If the esteemed moderator comes in here again, I would like to make this suggestion. The current title, in my opinion, is too aggressive and undeservedly judgmental towards the game and the game's story. I think a more neutral title like: “Discussing Astarion's behavior” would be more conducive to a friendly and comfortable discussion.