addict
Joined: Dec 2023
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Plus, while there some possible exceptions when following certain paths or if certain rolls are failed (eg when meeting Gandrel before Astarion’s nature is revealed), I personally didn’t find that as a good character there was ever a compelling enough justification for actually killing him, given that, for me, summary, extra-judicial execution when there is no clear and imminent requirement to prevent significant harm or loss of life is no part of being good!
I absolutely agree! Murders and executions cannot be justified by some metaphorical "good". Unless it's a good from the LG inquisitor who is ready to kill anyone if it's written in his codex (my least favorite type of alignment, I would probably kill such a companion myself if he was in the game, in every playthrough, although I don't like killing companions at all).
But while, given the choices and rolls in my good playthroughs, Astarion didn’t do anything particularly heinous, I know he can be dodgy. And while I don’t recall feeling that there were important missing opportunities to challenge Astarion specifically, I’m sure there are gaps in particular scenarios, as I’ve come across a number of instances across the game in general where I’ve not been happy with the available options for dialogue or action. Some of those probably do reflect the writers’ preconceptions of what the player might be thinking at that point, but I’ve never actually felt gaslit or as though the game wasn’t allowing me to make up my own mind about what I was seeing. And given the size and complexity of the game, I’m generally willing to headcanon a suitable response where the game doesn’t give me one, though I’ve tended to report as a bug/feedback when there’s been absolutely no way in the game to reflect a reaction that I’ve felt was significant to how the story plays out. Astarion himself doesn't do anything wrong in the game, he may approve of some of Tav's evil actions or disapprove of good ones. Basically, all companions do not independently do anything contrary to Tav's decisions. And if we talk about the lines, then, for example, the story of "good" Jaheira about how she chained the spawn to the sidewalk and made them wait for the dawn, that is, not killed them for safety, but exactly that she made the living creature suffer, realize the approach of death and helplessness, realize that they will be executed, realize it all night long, and then - die a painful and cruel death, causes much more disgust to her character than all the "evil" lines of the evil companions. That said, Ascended Astarion disapproves if I turn Jaheira over to Sarevok, although it's a very logical action from an evil character's point of view and could be done for Astarion's own safety, since Jaheira hates him and promises to become an "annoying neighbor" in the future, and it would be wise to eliminate her in advance as a preventative measure. But Astarion is against this, there is no rational explanation for his reaction, except that he is not as evil in deed as he says he is periodically in words. I personally was severely lacking at many points in the game in terms of opportunities for good, loving and supportive interactions with Astarion, options to challenge and harm him abound in the game. I don't need these options, and don't do so in any walkthrough, but they come across regularly, and I've watched videos of these options, and I believe the authors have given every opportunity for such roleplay. And, of course, there is no "gaslighting" in BG3, as OP wrote about, the main plot of Astarion is written perfectly, this character can be perfectly understood and felt, there are serious missed opportunities and problems specifically in romance, but about this has already been written many times in other threads. And so, this companion, in my opinion, perfectly combines with both evil and good style of passage. Apart from the spawn route, which I don't like for certain reasons, I think Astarion's reactions are mostly pretty brilliantly made and, thank God, he doesn't lose his narcissistic traits in the ascending route. I agree, so many of his reactions are brilliantly made, I can't help but admire him, and enjoy it every time. His narcissistic traits suit him very well, but at the same time he doesn't think only of himself, his attention is on Tav, he's flaunting himself in front of Tav, that's how I perceive his behavior in romance. No, for me, not at all, but I have my own taste. The only thing, which sometimes was a bit annoying, when playing a good Tav, is, when he disapproves on your good choices. But he never said annoying things, on the contrary, he showed a great interest in my naive and shy Tav (even without much approval) and so he seduced him really early in the game, and before the party. I loved that. It was well done by Larian. Yeah, I really liked the way it was done too. In the first blind playthrough I was worried about his disapproval, I was thinking not even about romance, but about how to be with him, so that the relationship would not be spoiled too much (I was afraid that he would betray or leave, in BG2 evil companions could easily do something like that), and not to do evil deeds for the sake of Astarion and his approvals, I was waiting for some personal quest to raise his approval at the expense of it. The bite scene was a revelation, I understood everything after that, my perception of the character took on a whole new color. And the sudden, just amazingly sudden invitation for a date - this has never happened in any game before! I just helped him with Gandrel, and decided to protect and defend him, not expecting any romance, thinking that maybe it won't work out, maybe I'm "not evil enough" for him, maybe I'll be without a pair in this walkthrough, and then I'll decide whether to be evil or not.  This early seduction scene creates a nice wow effect, it's well done, not to mention the date scene itself, and when you see his scars, and how he meets the dawn the next morning. The 1st act with Astarion is great. (I removed the beginning of this sentence so hopefully this is still coherent) I don't think that's necessarily the case for the people who've seen themselves reflected in Astarion's actions. I'd venture to say that they're at a point where they've been working to change themselves for the better for a long time.
I think, reflecting my points made here previously, people are going to project onto Astarion and see his story as more metaphoric, so when they say they feel seen by his anger and his "everyone out for themselves" philosophy I'm pretty sure they don't mean his more heinous acts. There's a difference between being mean to someone and generally lashing out vs the full extent of what Astarion does in the game. Lots of people IRL will be toxic without necessarily having a personality disorder. I don't know if that's what you meant by your last sentence, but I find it especially important to emphasize I don't think anyone who has talked about seeing themselves in Astarion has harmed children, because I think that can be a slippery slope of a claim. I also think OP's claims that Astarion is a child abuser are done in bad faith, and doubt people who see themselves in Astarion do so because of his past treatment of children.
In my case I can at least pretty confidently confirm that while I do have some mental illnesses (Depression, OCD) I don't have any personality disorders. A long time ago, I was just a mean teenager who was plain mean towards other teenagers, and I regret it a lot, but I understand now why I was lashing out like that and I'm glad I eventually had a support system to unlearn those behaviors.
I want to remark that my intentions in this thread were both to answer to the claims that Astarion's selfish victim archetype and severely toxic behavior towards innocents had no possible (loose) real life parallel and precedent, and the idea stories are literal and 1:1 in what they mean vs what they're grabbing from irl.
I think the writing intent points pretty clearly towards more closely mirroring a more blatant and extreme version (as fiction often does) of everyday victims who respond to that kind of trauma by becoming worse, more selfish people that lash out at others.
Something I've seen talked about that I find important is people talking about how "going through trauma doesn't make you a better person", and Astarion is an extremely exaggerated version of that. But the trauma he has gone through is also accordingly exaggerated, because no one has gone through 200 years of torture.
I think Astarion is part of a dichotomy I've seen often in how people can react to trauma, that other part of the dichotomy being someone like Wyll or Karlach. Basically, Astarion represents the people who at at least one point have gone "I've suffered, why shouldn't anyone else?" while Wyll and Karlach go "I've suffered, so I'll try to prevent anyone else from going through that" I wanted to say that almost all of the OP's assertions were made in bad faith, it's already been written that the OP doesn't know the plot of Astarion, and their assertions were used largely for the purpose of attacking other panelists, and I really wish other people, especially those who saw themselves in Astarion, wouldn't take it personally. Many people are indeed toxic without necessarily having a personality disorder.
Of course, a character is just that, an idea, an image, it cannot have parallels in real life. The story of Astarion's suffering is shocking initially, but now I also find it somewhat artistically exaggerated. 200 years is impossible to imagine, even in any way "close to reality". I've read about PTSD and the stories of people who survived captivity and torture, I wanted to understand Astarion better, but the amount he went through in his backstory - people go crazy, and have much more severe PTSD, having endured a much shorter period of torment, and not to the extent that is told in the game. And indeed, close relationships with someone after trauma can be difficult, they require enough wisdom and understanding from the partner, but you can't compare the game with reality, in reality every case is unique and has its own peculiarities, and the game is just an image anyway. "Going through trauma doesn't make you a better person" is an extremely stupid and unfairly insulting statement, but that's my personal opinion.
For me personally, Astarion was a kind of "healing" image, although I didn't see myself, and I didn't associate myself personally with him, but I saw him as someone I really wanted to give as much to as I could, to try to heal his injuries and his pain as much as I could, and it becomes a kind of meaning, giving meaning to my own life. He became the center of the game world, and the game took on more meaning than just running/adventure/fighting. While there isn't a full-fledged opportunity to roleplay my character as much as I'd like, and my character after Ascension is in places artificially made into a victim I can't in any way associate myself with, nevertheless the very possibility of such a romance with a character like Astarion provides a unique gaming experience that is incomparable to other games. I was mainly thinking of the constant disapproval. Everyone is so different, I would not want to downplay anyones choices in game. I can totally see the allure with having a good Tav falling for Astarion who "corrupts" them. Honestly it was kind of my first playthrough! Although my Tav lost much of their shy, naive nature by Act 3, hehe. I also like the option of a good Tav to whom Astarion opens her eyes to a dangerous and cruel world. My Tav goes from a fun-loving and reckless girl who was too light-hearted at first, to gradually understanding and realizing what this world is all about, through Astarion's fate and how hostile this world can be. She becomes smarter, more rational and realizes the importance of power. She will never allow this world to harm Astarion again, and transforms from a lighthearted chaotic-good character into a calculating neutral-evil, something of a dark knight and advisor to the Lord. Given that Astarion doesn't like to plan, hehe, she'll try to complement him. Two darlings - one head, I've come across that expression in English, and the vampire bride option fits perfectly with that.
Last edited by Marielle; 14/07/24 11:25 PM.
One life, one love - until the world falls down.
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