I have an answer for this one- the Yurgir version (which used to not be related to Yurgir at all, but just high approval, triggering once you slept after reaching Moonrise Towers) was made as a failsafe. Basically, they made that scene just in case you missed Araj, so you wouldn't be locked out of the Astarion romance. The Araj version is the one that was intended as the main one. It does surprise me, because I similarly think the Yurgir version is better, but I'm biased because it's also the one I found first. There are things about the Araj version I prefer, though. And I know people who say the Araj version is better, so it's a matter of taste.
Thanks, that makes sense. In general, I like the confession scene itself in both versions (well, and besides, the first impression from the first game is not forgotten anyway), and having two scenes diversifies the walkthroughs, that's good too. Rather, the difference is in the quest event that leads up to it. In Yurgir's case, the confession turns out to be more deserved, in Oblodra's case it didn't cost me any effort, I can't even at least force her to apologize to Astarion for the insult. But if you take the meeting with her simply as an occasion, as a situation that prompted Astarion to talk about his past, it's also a curious departure from the more usual version of romance where you kill an enemy/solve a lover's problem and there's dialog afterward that strengthens or develops the relationship. There was a surprise effect after the encounter with Oblodra, I didn't expect Astarion to thank me for it, and even more so I didn't expect such an acknowledgement, that's interesting too.
That reminds me that a while ago I reported to Larian that it's weird that if you had had the Yurgir confession already, you can make Astarion bite Araj with no consequences, and they told me they were aware of this problem and working on it. Could it be in Patch 7?
Yeah, that shouldn't happen, it's worth fixing.
The reasoning is also peculiar to me, because the Araj version - while very interesting - makes me think that the writing's hope and intention here was that you break up with him.
What a nightmare. In that case I should boycott this scene and only go through Yurgir
. In all seriousness, I didn't notice anything wrong with this scene, negative lines and a breakup line are there in any romance scene. In this confession scene after we learn new details of Astarion's past suffering, there is an option to open my consciousness to him, which seems to me a very good option for confession, there is an option to hug him (for confession of feelings for me this action seems too weak compared to the option to open consciousness, but the scene itself is very touching, and I, although I don't use it in the walkthrough, I gladly go into this save later just to hug Astarion).
I forgot to say earlier that yes, the impression I got from Madame Fel back when the EA datamines were coming out was that she was some sort of supernatural entity allied with the Gur. I've datamined the current game and Madame Fel effectively became Ulma, and the Madame Fel flags are still there.
My theory back then was that Madame Fel was long-lived because of... whatever she was, and had been alive to see Astarion's ruling that got him killed, hence that part of his past would've been addressed because she knew of it and disliked it. It was nice to imagine how things could've turned out in EA.
Yes, that would have been a very good plot move. The mail from “M” hints at an interesting story in the future, and it can be a pity when such hints don't materialize in the game. It would have been very interesting if it could have been revealed to the Gur that their leader is a hag. For example, after the Ascension it could have led to the fact that it would have been possible to persuade the Gur to leave and fight the hag in her guise, or the Gur would still consider us enemies, but they could not forgive the hag's deception, and then it would have been a curious battle of all against all. But most importantly, there could have been an interesting dialog, which could have revealed interesting details of Astarion's past.
I find it peculiar that, when he remains a Spawn but you kill the 7k victims, he tells Ulma "I've inflicted enough pain on your people". Was this acknowledgement of his past deeds, perhaps? It's the closest thing we have. I guess I'll have to fill in the gaps, there.
But if Ulma was a hag, it wouldn't be her people. She would be just as much of a monster to the Gur and would likely deceive them and use them for her own ends, at least it seems that way to me.
The writing, to me, heavily implies that it's not all that healthy for Astarion to pursue a romantic and/or sexual relationship right now. In fact, it seemed incredibly obvious to me to the point I was surprised more people don't talk about it. I think it's because it's something most people won't notice without experience.
When he told me he didn't feel comfortable having sex and I broke up with him, he was relieved. In a run where we stopped having sex but kept dating, spawn Astarion was relieved when I said we didn't have to have sex after we killed cazador. He seems to have trouble saying no to sex he doesn't want to have even to a partner he trusts, considering he dissociates during the brothel scene.
He doesn't even know if he can consent or wants it at all because it's been at long since he's been given a choice. He also obviously believes that if he doesn't have sex with a partner they'll leave him. I know he seems alright with polyam as long as it's not because he won't have sex with you, but I have no idea what he does if you say it is because of that. Either way it shows it's a worry.
I believe that romantic relationships can be without sex, in which case the authors should have implemented the possibility for deep platonic love, if Astarion has that kind of trauma. I would have really wanted to apologize to him if he had previously felt bad around me, even though I knew nothing. And to tell him that I love him and will always be there for him, that I don't need any sex, that I care so much more about how he feels. But there's no hint that Astarion is against affectionate and gentle touches, without sexual overtones. After the first kiss, he told me, “I do rather like it, you know?”. That's what love is, sex isn't necessary, it's just that possibility isn't explicitly written into the story. It would be possible, for example, to put passionate kisses in Act 1, Astarion and Tav are already sleeping together, it is very strange that they do not kiss. And in Act 2 after the confession replace them with more gentle, chaste and non-sexualized ones, for example, a kiss on the cheek, on the ear, a kiss on the hand, add a hug. The dialog after Ascension with “I want your body” just looks awful given his trauma. Larian probably won't fix this, but at the very least they should definitely make an official support for a mod fixing these lines to allow those players who play this way to be normal loving partners towards Astarion. If I could ask him how he feels, if he really wants it, that would be realistic, but unfortunately there's no such roleplay. In Act 2, the lack of lines suitable for platonic love is fully compensated for by the opportunity to open my mind, to imagine that I've said everything I wanted to say, and that Astarion knows it. The Act 3 scene, alas, is a mess.
By the way, during the night after Ascension, Astarion doesn't look at all like he's feeling bad about what he's doing. He looks like he's enjoying it himself. I specifically watched the scene frame by frame to study facial expressions - he feels good about it. The video brothel scene with Spawn doesn't need any frame-by-frame viewing, it's already painful to watch. Ascended in the brothel - it's only bad at the very end, but still, you can see something wrong here in the frame-by-frame view. Maybe Neil played it so well, maybe, certainly, it seemed to me, or I made up something to myself, but in any case after a night with a beloved person there is no dissociation. Deep serious look, sincere gratitude: “You gave me everything. Thank you.” And with what tenderness he kisses Tav's hand. I think that it is the sex in the brothel that traumatizes him, which brings him back to his past, and the intimacy with a loved one whom he trusts is no longer there (at least, according to the video, his facial expressions, his voice). Maybe the dominance element is there for a reason too, I've read that people with sexual trauma can feel better when they are in complete control of the situation, when they are dominant, that's how they feel safe. Of course, everything is individual, but in Astarion's case, outwardly it looks like that, and may well be suitable for perception and roleplay. Though I'd be all for it if there was more opportunity for platonic love, but specifically love rather than something like friendship.
As a person who has been there, someone saying "I can wait" implies that eventually they expect sex at some point. Which means they're going to end it if they think that point will never arrive. When you're desperate not to lose someone and are used to having sex you don't want to in order to keep people happy, it's easy to convince yourself you're ready before you really are. It's easy to think that once you don't have an "excuse" anymore that your partner will expect you to be over it. Especially since, unfortunately, a lot of people do believe those things.
To be clear, I am not saying that Astarion can't consent or that it's wrong to romance him or ascend him or anything. I did a spawn romance, a durge and ascended astarion queerplatonic thing, and am doing an origin run that will end with ascended astarion dating minthara. It's roleplay in a video game.
But the partner can say, not only “I can wait,” but also “I don't need it if you don't need it.” Nothing prevents these two people from having a deep and strong connection, perhaps stronger than many couples who have sex, but are superficial about the relationship itself. It doesn't get in the way of love. I'm even a little uncomfortable with the way the game actively pushes Halsin in, as if I'm so wrapped up in sex that when I find out what my significant other has been through, I'm not going to think about him or how to take care of him, I'm going to think about having sex with someone, I don't care who. I agree with you that it's just roleplaying, but I want Astarion to be happy and I do everything within my power to do so. If there were more opportunities, including platonic love, I would do more. I feel like Astarion feels better when he has someone close and loving to him around anyway, and that it's not just my selfishness because I don't want to play without romance with him. He even changes throughout the story - he starts to smile genuinely, looks at you with wide open eyes, even though he used to always squint them, he needs that too.
