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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Nov 2023
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addict
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addict
Joined: Nov 2023
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The way I see it, the player character on that path is currently portrayed as unaware of the change in Astarion's temperament ascension would bring with it, and does not want to break up if it weren't for that change.
The period between being turned and the ending scene is one of profound unease and growing suspicion. Yes, even if you never pick these dialogue choices, the game decides you're just not letting these feelings show. Your feelings are decided for you. That usually happens if a lead writer has very strong opinions of what's going on, and they're not well translated.
Because of limitations of the engine and the late addition, the overplayed emotions in the kissing scene and some of the not so matching romance pathing are rather jarring. In a way, you're supposed to imagine the player character is on edge now all the time, but it's only visible in the kissing scene. This is objectively not well done. However, I have strong doubts Larian would do this without motivation. It's expensive to create such scenes. It was meant as a statement on how the player character *ought* to feel, which is ironic when one in game path is living in blissful ignorance of how Astarion would actually react when defied. You can see the change immediately after ascension. He even lets Tav know he can feel their heartbeat and can tell they want to be dominated by him and that everything's changed. He's clearly telegraphing that the relationship will become different from that point on. Tav would have to be in complete denial to not see that. During the long rest afterwards there are plenty of choices to criticise him and zero positive replies about the ritual you actually helped him with. The breakup options are all about not wanting to be with him due to the change in his behaviour. There is no growing suspicion, only Tav hating his new self, liking what they see or believing he can still eventually be a good guy since he's supposed to have human emotions now. In the same patch they added extra, hidden lines for the situation when Tav abandons him and accompanies Karlach in the dock scene. Upon reuniting with him in the epilogue Tav says: "I'm sorry I kind of disappeared. I didn't mean to leave you like that." Doesn't sound like someone who is fearful of him and wants nothing to do with him. During the epilogue party you can be a perfectly harmonious power couple. Most dialogue options are positive. Even when you're not happy in that scene, Astarion tells you he's putting big effort giving you the best life he can. They sound more like a bickering wedded couple fighting over one thing they disagree on rather than someone fighting for their life and wanting to run away from their captor. If Tav was so awfully mistreated they would complain to their companions and ask them for help. The only one deciding how my character ought to feel about another character is me, period. It's my character's story not the writers'.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jan 2023
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The way I see it, the player character on that path is currently portrayed as unaware of the change in Astarion's temperament ascension would bring with it, and does not want to break up if it weren't for that change.
The period between being turned and the ending scene is one of profound unease and growing suspicion. Yes, even if you never pick these dialogue choices, the game decides you're just not letting these feelings show. Your feelings are decided for you. That usually happens if a lead writer has very strong opinions of what's going on, and they're not well translated.
Because of limitations of the engine and the late addition, the overplayed emotions in the kissing scene and some of the not so matching romance pathing are rather jarring. In a way, you're supposed to imagine the player character is on edge now all the time, but it's only visible in the kissing scene. This is objectively not well done. However, I have strong doubts Larian would do this without motivation. It's expensive to create such scenes. It was meant as a statement on how the player character *ought* to feel, which is ironic when one in game path is living in blissful ignorance of how Astarion would actually react when defied. It's a tragic romance with most of the tragedy set to happen *after* the ending of the actual game.
They've merged this subtle, withering path with the one where Tav is immediately deeply unsettled by what he has become. For what? I can only assume to make it more "obvious" to read what was intended, but now that is has been released, it falls under "death of the author" and people will just not care what the "right" reading is. Few will say: "Aha, that settles it, this is what Larian was going for!". They'll say: "How could Larian infringe on my personal interpretation like this? I have a personal connection to this character, saying he hurts my character, hurts me". There are positive, uncertain/neutral, and negative dialogue options for everything in the game. For all romances, you can play as happy, or unhappy and break up. In the evil route, you have the option to be evil and enjoy being with an evil vampire lord, grow uncertain, or be deeply unhappy and breakup. It is illogical to include a consistent positive dialogue path where evil players are allowed to revel in their choices, only to be scared. In the event of wanting to be unhappy for RP, the logical path is a break up. Not a kiss mechanic. A kiss mechanic that the PC *requests*, no less. If the PC is as frightened as the expressions showed, they would not ever select to give the LI a kiss as a personal initiative repeatedly. It is not logical. The writers of the character have talked extensively about the branching paths. Never once have the mentioned "this is a story of abuse." The game's themes are about power. As stated verbatim in the game. Its fine if AA abusing Tav is your interpretation, but that is not shared by everyone, and the faces for patch 6 kisses did not reflect good RP for the majority of players. The faces were not mocapped. It was not some "lesson" by Larian to make players feel abused. This has always been a branching narrative. Larian is not going back on a vision just by realigning kiss expressions to what they already were beforehand. Asking for a choice in expression for Astarion and Astarion only doesn't make any sense. Neutral works for everyone. It just feels like some are upset that neutral doesn't force other players to play the way *they personally* think they should. It's a bit silly. I will be honest with you: I have not met a single person who enjoys the new scenes immensely. Some, like me, think they're not inherently bad, but suffer from the same overacting that can be found throughout the game. Some people feel they're violating to even look at, because it makes them feel abused. There's a long list of reasons why they're unpopular. Still, the only people who are against them being even optional are very clearly the people who felt violated by the scenes. Meanwhile, there's not really a club of people who want to eliminate more neutral scenes.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jan 2023
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The way I see it, the player character on that path is currently portrayed as unaware of the change in Astarion's temperament ascension would bring with it, and does not want to break up if it weren't for that change.
The period between being turned and the ending scene is one of profound unease and growing suspicion. Yes, even if you never pick these dialogue choices, the game decides you're just not letting these feelings show. Your feelings are decided for you. That usually happens if a lead writer has very strong opinions of what's going on, and they're not well translated.
Because of limitations of the engine and the late addition, the overplayed emotions in the kissing scene and some of the not so matching romance pathing are rather jarring. In a way, you're supposed to imagine the player character is on edge now all the time, but it's only visible in the kissing scene. This is objectively not well done. However, I have strong doubts Larian would do this without motivation. It's expensive to create such scenes. It was meant as a statement on how the player character *ought* to feel, which is ironic when one in game path is living in blissful ignorance of how Astarion would actually react when defied. You can see the change immediately after ascension. He even lets Tav know he can feel their hearbeat and can tell they want to be dominated by him and that everything's changed. He's clearly telegraphing that the relationship will become different from that point on. Tav would have to be in complete denial to not see that. During the long rest afterwards there are plenty of choices to criticise him and zero positive replies about the ritual you actually helped him with. The breakup options are all about not wanting to be with him due to the change in his behaviour. There is no growing suspicion, only Tav hating his new self, liking what they see or believing he can still eventually be a good guy since he's supposed to have human emotions now. In the same patch they added extra, hidden lines for the situation when Tav abandons him and accompanies Karlach in the dock scene. Upon reuniting with him in the epilogue Tav says: "I'm sorry I kind of disappeared. I didn't mean to leave you like that." Doesn't sound like someone who is fearful of him and wants nothing to do with him. During the epilogue party you can be a perfectly harmonious power couple. Most dialogue options are positive. Even when you're not happy in that scene, Astarion tells you he's putting big effort giving you the best life he can. They sound more like a bickering wedded couple fighting over one thing they disagree on rather than someone fighting for their life and wanting to run away from their captor. If Tav was so awfully mistreated they would complain to their companions and ask them for help. The only one deciding how my character ought to feel about another character is me, period. It's my character's story not the writers'. Well, I do agree that writers shouldn't butt in months later when a fandom doesn't interpret something like they wanted to. Some writers are very good at dealing with fans. Some writers are personally offended if you feel about something the wrong way. You can guess what sort of person would have forced this. It's a rather petty action to take.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2023
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The period between being turned and the ending scene is one of profound unease and growing suspicion. Yes, even if you never pick these dialogue choices, the game decides you're just not letting these feelings show. Your feelings are decided for you. That usually happens if a lead writer has very strong opinions of what's going on, and they're not well translated. I also got the impression that how the writing envisions the players feelings towards Astarion, opposed to what the players who romance him actually do see in him and the relationship can differ quite considerably. When I look at the one consistent characterisation of the PC in the romance (and that panel that got linked a few months ago seems to support this) they are mostly interested in Astarion's looks and in sex with him. They might also have come to care for him but mostly in a way that implies keeping him save on the spawn route and leeching of his powers in the ascended route. Seeing him as a truly valued partner (what the graveyard dialogue states him to be for you) is something you cannot really express in either version of the romance, though I got the impression that this is what many people actually do see in him.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2023
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If a player character can *emotionally* react in two ways to the same scene, after all, it's only logical that both reactions be somewhat "valid". If both are valid, both are a reasonable response. What would it say about the romance if fear is a reasonable response? That's it abusive. It's natural some people will be vehemently against the inclusion. Having it even be optional is indeed a direct violation of their headcanon. A win-win for everyone is not reasonably possible. Even if you hide the trigger behind a one time dialogue choice, some people will be angry. The knowledge that's it's a supported reading of the same romance they're playing is not something they're able to ignore. So, like I said, if someone else is going to play with my toy, they have to play with it my way or they can't have it.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jan 2023
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If a player character can *emotionally* react in two ways to the same scene, after all, it's only logical that both reactions be somewhat "valid". If both are valid, both are a reasonable response. What would it say about the romance if fear is a reasonable response? That's it abusive. It's natural some people will be vehemently against the inclusion. Having it even be optional is indeed a direct violation of their headcanon. A win-win for everyone is not reasonably possible. Even if you hide the trigger behind a one time dialogue choice, some people will be angry. The knowledge that's it's a supported reading of the same romance they're playing is not something they're able to ignore. So, like I said, if someone else is going to play with my toy, they have to play with it my way or they can't have it. Partially yes, but there's also the whole side of people feeling if they see a dialogue choice, and it's not something their character would say, it's "bad" (simplified). This can be extremely reasonable -- going down a dialogue tree can lock you into a perplexing set of choices. Larian has addressed some in the past. It can also be unreasonable, in the sense that people feel having out of character choices is inherently... out of character. Even if there's in character choices available. To a degree, I think we all feel this, but some people can't really rationalise what they're seeing. Nor describe what they're feeling, really. People can't reason themselves out of positions they didn't reason themselves into, it's naked emotion. It's less about being a shared toy than: something exists, it makes them feel bad, they want it gone. Controlling someone else's play style by necessity is a a casuality of having that need met.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2024
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So, like I said, if someone else is going to play with my toy, they have to play with it my way or they can't have it. It is more like neighbours living in an apartment in happy harmony and one day someone decides to set fire to the building. Some neighbour thinks it's nice and warm, not caring at all if the other ones living in the apartment is choking and getting burned.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Nov 2023
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If a player character can *emotionally* react in two ways to the same scene, after all, it's only logical that both reactions be somewhat "valid". If both are valid, both are a reasonable response. What would it say about the romance if fear is a reasonable response? That's it abusive. It's natural some people will be vehemently against the inclusion. Having it even be optional is indeed a direct violation of their headcanon. A win-win for everyone is not reasonably possible. Even if you hide the trigger behind a one time dialogue choice, some people will be angry. The knowledge that's it's a supported reading of the same romance they're playing is not something they're able to ignore. So, like I said, if someone else is going to play with my toy, they have to play with it my way or they can't have it. As I said earlier, there are several dialogue options to roleplay being scared of Astarion and the sensible action is to break up with him. Astarion explains to you what you're getting yourself into. Tav being scared of Astarion and then asking for a kiss and being terrified of him every single time to the same degree doesn't make sense. If you're scared of dogs, do you go around petting them or don't touch them and try to stay away from them? If you're scared of mice, do you go to the pet shop and buy one for yourself? Even in a weird scenario where Tav was somehow horrified by his kisses and wanted to repeatedly perform them regardless, their fear would get reduced after each kiss, since they'd know what to expect.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2023
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It is more like neighbours living in an apartment in happy harmony and one day someone decides to set fire to the building. Some neighbour thinks it's nice and warm, not caring at all if the other ones living in the apartment is choking and getting burned. Not even remotely the same. My story choices are not affecting your story at all, they do not spread to your story. I can easily prove it, I am going to load up the game right now and click on a bunch of choices and I can promise your game didn't change at all. Let me know if I was wrong and you noticed something in your games.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2023
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Thank you. It would be nice I had never gotten into this discussion that Larian provokes with "canon of r!pe-abuse-torture" interpretation of the romance in kisses, which ignores the entire context and most of Tav\DU's lines - on Feb. 14. It's been over 6 months since the patch was released, people have left feedback and our requests have been heard by Larian, because what was introduced in patch 6 is a mistake.
Now you're trying on an unreleased patch 7 to suggest/influence changes, it's disappointing.
Players are waiting for these changes, let's see the new facial expressions first. We're still a month away from changes, and this discussion will probably continue. It's not even in the game though. Maybe Larian will add a "hysteria" opition for Tav in the epilogue for them to ask companions for help because they're being tortured every day in the torture room "how to behave properly and be grateful", in patch 8 after new suggestions on how we should canonically interpret this romance properly. So, like I said, if someone else is going to play with my toy, they have to play with it my way or they can't have it. It is more like neighbours living in an apartment in happy harmony and one day someone decides to set fire to the building. Some neighbour thinks it's nice and warm, not caring at all if the other ones living in the apartment is choking and getting burned. Yes, it is.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2023
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As I said earlier, there are several dialogue options to roleplay being scared of Astarion and the sensible action is to break up with him. Astarion explains to you what you're getting yourself into. Tav being scared of Astarion and then asking for a kiss and being terrified of him every single time to the same degree doesn't make sense. If you're scared of dogs, do you go around petting them or don't touch them and try to stay away from them? If you're scared of mice, do you go to the pet shop and buy one for yourself? Even in a weird scenario where Tav was somehow scared of him and wanted to repeatedly kiss him regardless, their fear would get reduced after each kiss, since they'd know what to expect. Let's not crawl down the rabbithole of why people might stay in abusive relationships and pretend to be happy, you don't want to be the one on the wrong side of that discussion. What matters is that if OP wants to play their relationship this way and it doesn't affect how you experience your romance, then it doesn't matter what logic OP is applying. You can ignore it. I am ignoring a ton of stuff people are doing in their games right now that I think is messed up, out of character, dumb or whatever and I am not suffering.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2024
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To a degree, I think we all feel this, but some people can't really rationalise what they're seeing. Nor describe what they're feeling, really. People can't reason themselves out of positions they didn't reason themselves into, it's naked emotion. It's less about being a shared toy than: something exists, it makes them feel bad, they want it gone. Controlling someone else's play style by necessity is a a casuality of having that need met. Man, I really LOVE when you are psychoanalyzing all of us previous posters like you think you know shit. Putting us all neatly in our little boxes with lables on.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jan 2023
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To a degree, I think we all feel this, but some people can't really rationalise what they're seeing. Nor describe what they're feeling, really. People can't reason themselves out of positions they didn't reason themselves into, it's naked emotion. It's less about being a shared toy than: something exists, it makes them feel bad, they want it gone. Controlling someone else's play style by necessity is a a casuality of having that need met. Man, I really LOVE when you are psychoanalyzing all of us previous posters like you think you know shit. Putting us all neatly in our little boxes with lables on. Why, thank you. I thought after two pages without a straight answer, someone will eventually have to formulate why exactly someone having that choice hurts you, and it might as well be me. I've based my neat little box of labels on what people have said on other issues during early access. You're very welcome to expand the number of boxes.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2024
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It is more like neighbours living in an apartment in happy harmony and one day someone decides to set fire to the building. Some neighbour thinks it's nice and warm, not caring at all if the other ones living in the apartment is choking and getting burned. Not even remotely the same. My story choices are not affecting your story at all, they do not spread to your story. I can easily prove it, I am going to load up the game right now and click on a bunch of choices and I can promise your game didn't change at all. Let me know if I was wrong and you noticed something in your games. What are you talking about? I'm talking about the change to the character expression during a kiss, that was happy before, and is now horrible. And is luckily getting changed to nautral. Think of the harmony as Patch 5 and the fire as Patch 6 if that helps. Nothing to do what you do in your game, I could not care less about your choices.
Last edited by KiraMira; 03/08/24 08:00 PM.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jan 2023
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After seeing the announcement that Tav's faces when kissing ascended Astarion will change with the next patch, I would like to make the suggestion to make this change optional for players. This way, it would remain possible for players who found the old facial expressions fitting for their character to uphold the envisioned narrative of their story. Personally, I think both narratives are equally possible and it would be nice to have the chance to choose how my different characters react to the kisses. Thank you!
Edit to add: I think it would be a good idea to add a small line of narrator dialogue with a choice attached for this purpose, or use one of the already existing options that express Tav's discomfort (such as the attempted breakup) In case someone has not seen the actual post that started this thread
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2023
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To a degree, I think we all feel this, but some people can't really rationalise what they're seeing. Nor describe what they're feeling, really. People can't reason themselves out of positions they didn't reason themselves into, it's naked emotion. It's less about being a shared toy than: something exists, it makes them feel bad, they want it gone. Controlling someone else's play style by necessity is a a casuality of having that need met. Man, I really LOVE when you are psychoanalyzing all of us previous posters like you think you know shit. Putting us all neatly in our little boxes with lables on. I'm more interested in the pyschoanalysis of those who never choose this path, hate it and ask for changes in it for themselves. But no, not really interested. People literally want the kiss that comes after the phrase "let's kiss" to fit the context. If "neutral faces" are added for more roleplay to the kiss, then all characters. As Every rightly suggested
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2023
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What are you talking about? I'm talking about the change to the character expression during a kiss, that was happy before, and is now horrible. Nothing to do what you do in your game, I could not care less about your choices. If you don't care about my choices, why would you care if there was a choice in the game where I can say I want my character to feel frightened when they are intimate with ascended Astarion and I went for that choice (as long as you have the option to make a different choice that suits your preference)? You can feel that that is dumb, gross, inconsistent or whatever. No one is forcing you to click that choice.
Last edited by papercut_ninja; 03/08/24 08:03 PM.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2024
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You're very welcome to expand the number of boxes. I've never been interested in putting people in boxes. I like to judge them by basis as individuals. I think you are managing quite well with your collection. Probably have your whole house full.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Nov 2023
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What are you talking about? I'm talking about the change to the character expression during a kiss, that was happy before, and is now horrible. Nothing to do what you do in your game, I could not care less about your choices. If you don't care about my choices, why would you care if there was a choice in the game where I can say I want my character to feel frightened when they are intimate with ascended Astarion and I went for that choice (as long as you have the option to make a different choice that suits your preference)? You can feel that that is dumb, gross, inconsistent or whatever. No one is forcing you to click that choice. Then I have a counter question, what’s the problem with adding neutral facial expressions to all companions?
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